"The Scientists' Bluff"

[Guest guest]

For info on the Anthropic Principle see:

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/rossuk/c-anthro.htm

 

 

Science, and psuedo science such as "intelligent design", will never be able to reveal the living God, Sri Krishna

 

 

Intelligent Design is not psuedo science but evolutionary theory is. Intelligent design has two components. 1) To look at evolutionary theory in light of all the discoveries made by scientists to date and see if the data backs up the theory 2) To show that that the natural world based on the science of probabilities that ideas such as Irreducible Complexity are the most probable theories to be correct based on empirical deduction from the available data.

 

Unfortunately due to the bias of atheists (and people who accept them as unbiased) and people with no education on the topic who are unwilling to investigate both sides on their own terms, the above quote is then repeated as some kind of mantra without any sort of attempt to prove it. But one thing is true in the above, that ultmately Krishna decides who can see the truth of the situation and who cannot.ID does reveal God, but God can keep you igorant of that fact if he decides to.

 

[Guest guest]

quote:

He can reveal Himself as He chooses through modern science.

<hr>

 

reply:

 

Existing in all bodies, bodiless (not having a material body),

Changeless, he is existing within all unstable things.

The Self, the great Lord, is all pervading,

Realizing Him the wise man knows no grief.

 

This Self cannot be won by preaching of Him.

Nor by sacrifice, nor by intellect, nor by lore which we have heard.

That person alone whom He elects can know Him.

To him this Self reveals his own true form.

 

- Katha Upanishad 2.22-23

 

<hr>

 

Where does Sri Krishna say he can be realized through empiricism, science or logic? Nowhere.

 

Science is the study of material phenomenon. Krishna consciousness is a path that leads to realization of the supreme supernatural phenomenon - Krishna.

 

[Guest guest]

In fact there are many statements in the Upanishads and Vedic literature speaking about how life can arise spontaneously from material nature. Check the Chhandogya Upanishad and Brahma-sutra (4.4.3).

<blockquote>

Manusmrti 1.42-48

"What kind of acts is ordained for what creatures here, that I shall declare to you, also (their) order in origin. Cattle and also deer and also wild beasts with two rows of teeth, demons (rakshas) and devils (Pisachas) and men (manushas) are born from a caul (jarayu, womb). Produced from eggs (are) birds, snakes, crocodiles and fish, and tortoises; and likewise all other kinds (of reptiles which are) produced on land or (are) aquatic. From moisture are produced gnats and flies, lice, fleas and bugs; and from heat is produced whatever else is of this kind. All plants (which are) fixed grow from seed or slips. Herbs (are) those which perish with ripening of fruit, (and) abound in flowers and fruit. Those (trees), which have no flowers (but) have fruit, are called vanaspati (forest-lord); those that have flowers, and also that bear fruit (are) both called trees. Plants with one stem and many stems are of many kinds; so also grasses; but convolvulus and creepers spring from seed or a slip."

</blockquote>

It is debatable whether gnats and flies really are produced from moisture. Or whether this was simply an observation by some sage who didn't know that insects are born from tiny eggs. But nevertheless, it is a fact that there are many stories in the Veda about people who were born from fire (Vrtrasura) or water (the apsaras) or from a dead body (Prithu). So in principle the idea that a living being such as a mosquito can be born from matter is not contrary to what the Vedas teach. In fact the Vedas teach that a living being can be born from matter.

 

Inside subatomic particles of matter there is incredible energy. This energy pervading all things is the basis of life. The invisible One manifests the multitude of visible forms and physical things within the universe: the atoms, stars, galaxies, planets, plants and sentient beings all originate from the One source. The physical universe is a manifestation of the inconceivable power (devatmashakti) inherent in the Supreme One. And why should devotees be disturbed by the idea that living beings can emerge or evolve in pools of water on the edge of the Ocean, or in pools of volcanic matter that are boiling and churning with energy in the depths of the sea? see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_smoker

 

om purnam adah purnam idam, purnat purnam udacyate

purnasya purnam adaya, purnam evavasisyate

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

 

In fact there are many statements in the Upanishads and Vedic literature speaking about how life can arise spontaneously from material nature.

 

 

We must be using the word life differently. We must be very specific here. I would agree that the life particle(atma) can manifest anywhere in material nature. But the atma comes from Krishna. Matter cannot give rise to life. Something lacking awareness cannot produce something that has awareness.

[Guest guest]

A living body.

 

Oh... and by the way.... the body is different from the soul.

 

The soul is never born and it never dies.

 

Kathaupanishad 2.21

 

More subtle that the subtle, greater than the great,

The Self is hidden in the heart of all creatures here.

The man without desitre, all his sorrows spent, beholds It,

The majesty of the Self, by the grace of the Supreme.

 

[Guest guest]

quote:

Something lacking awareness cannot produce something that has awareness.

<hr>

 

The concious self which has "awareness" is not produced from by a living body (mother). The self is unborn.

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

So by life you mean biological life which is spirit acting upon matter. Well thats fine. But the molecular evolutionists claim that life comes about from a random combination of molecules.

 

It is nice to hear you oppose that view.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

If you ask a Scientist is he satisfied with the knowledge he has, will probably say no. Because these theories of Big Bang etc are speculations, he cannot be satsfied, neither can anybody else. Doesn't satisfy the mind, so hows it going to satisfy the soul.

[Guest guest]

quote:

So by life you mean biological life which is spirit acting upon matter. Well thats fine. But the molecular evolutionists claim that life comes about from a random combination of molecules.

<hr>

 

You wrote about "a random combination of molecules",

and I said this:

<blockquote>

why should devotees be disturbed by the idea that living beings can emerge or evolve in pools of water on the edge of the Ocean, or in pools of volcanic matter that are boiling and churning with energy in the depths of the sea? see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_smoker

</blockquote>

 

I can easily see that Krishna is playing his flute and the wave of sound from his flute -- which is Gayatri, the source of Divine Understanding -- that wave is working upon "Nature" and because of that divine wave life can sparkle and grow in any place at all. It can just burst forth into activity. I can easily imagine that life can emerge from boiling chemicals in an undersea volcano, or in some other environment where extremophiles (primitive organisms) are found.

 

The Vedas say that the jiva and Paramatma are like two birds in a tree and that the Paramatma is a silent witness when the jiva tastes the fruit that grows in the material world.

 

Krishna doesn't directly involve himself in the process of creation.

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

 

Krishna doesn't directly involve himself in the process of creation.

 

 

Right, He just blows the flute. Krishna doesn't kill demons either. And He doesn't emanate universes from His pores while lying on the causal ocean, Maha-vishnu does. Oh yeah Maha-Vishnu is His expansion.

 

This has gotten kind of silly don't you think?

 

I'll bow out first.

 

Hare Krishna

 

 

[Guest guest]

Krishna descends as an avatara to speak to mankind and help people attain Him.

 

As you said, and as Mahaprabhu also said, Svayam Bhagavan Krishna just plays his flute and he never leaves Vraja-lila. The work of creation is accomplished by Him through His energies. In fact, this world is created by Maya, the illusory potency of the Lord. The Lord has NO DIRECT ACTIVITY HIMSELF IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION. All the activities of creation are carried out by the energies of the Lord but the Lord Himself remains aloof.

 

Brahma-Samhita, TEXT 1

 

isvarah paramah krsnah sac-cid-ananda-vigrahah

anadir adir govindah sarva-karana-karanam

 

Krsna who is known as Govinda is the Supreme Godhead. He has an eternal blissful spiritual body. He is the origin of all. He has no other origin and He is the prime cause of all causes.

 

PURPORT (Sri Bhakti Siddhanta Saraswati Goswami)

 

Krsna is the exalted Supreme entity having His eternal name, eternal form, eternal attribution and eternal pastimes...

 

The glance of His projected fractional portion in the sacred originating water viz., the personal oversoul or Paramatma, gives rise to a secondary potency--nature who creates this mundane universe. This oversoul's intermediate energy (tatastha) brings forth the individual souls analogously to the emanated rays of the sun.

[Guest guest]

quote:

Krishna doesn't directly involve himself in the process of creation.

--------------

 

Right, He just blows the flute. Krishna doesn't kill demons either.

 

<hr>

svayam bhagavanera karma nahe bhara-harana

 

sthitikarta visnu karena jagat-palana

 

kintu krsnera yei haya avatara-kala

 

bhara-harana-kala ta'te haila misala

 

purna bhagavan avatare yei kale

 

ara saba avatara ta-'te asi' mile

 

ataeva visnu takhan krsnera sarire

 

visnudvare krsna kare asura samhare

 

To remove the burden of the earth is not the work of the

Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krsna. It is the maintainer

of the universe, Lord Visnu, who also protects the universe.

But the time to lift the burden of the world mixed with the

time for Sri Krsna's appearance. When the complete

personality of Godhead descends, all other incarnations of

the Lord meet together within Him. Krsna Himself does not

kill the demons. Lord Visnu is present within the body of

Krsna and Krsna kills the demons through him.

(Caitanya-Caritamrta Adi 4.8-10,13)

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

How to clue you in. The fact the Krishna form the original form is only engaged in rasa with His devotees is not in dispute and never has been. Are you crazy people maybe? Why do you persist?

 

We have also learned that Krishna has unlimited expansions and those expansions are responsible for not only the material world but Vaikuntha as well.

 

In case you haven't noticed the educational system has become dominated by atheists on planet earth. What to speak of becoming conscious of Vraja rasa people are having the door closed to them to learn of the Supreme Being in any capacity. If that doesn't bother you then fine but why keep up with this one point that is not even in question?

 

SHEESH

[Guest guest]

 

 

Atheism makes the extraordinary claim that there is no God. To the theist you are someone who is blind denying the existence of the Sun and theist's are superstitious fable believers to you.

 

 

YesuBhaktan,

 

By the nature of your naive statements, you evidently have not had much interaction with atheists. But there has to be a first time for everyone. I hope you are familiar with basic logic because otherwise you will have trouble understanding what I am saying. Now clear your mind out and read this without bias; without any of your many predefined notions.

 

The theist makes the claim "There is a god". The atheist counters with "You have no evidence to back up your claim, so I do not accept what you are saying."

 

Read the above statement at least three times. I am sure I have put it in a very simple form. The game is opened by the theist; he is the one who posits. The theist acts first and the atheist reacts. So the atheist never makes claims as you wrongly assume. He only rejects baseless claims which are not supported by evidence.

 

Btw, no atheist denies the existence of the sun. I am sure you know better than that. You may also want to read http://www.atheists.org/faqs/faqs.html to understand things better.

 

Cheers

 

[Guest guest]

 

The Lord has NO DIRECT ACTIVITY HIMSELF IN THE PROCESS OF CREATION.

 

 

That's a misleading statement. In Gaudiya vaisnavism we teach that Krishna in his manifestation in Vraja is not doing anything else but enjoying rasa. But Krishna is not just in Vraja. Krishna expands Himself into numerous manifestations to do things outside of enjoying rasa in Vraja.

 

 

bhumir apo 'nalo vayuh

kham mano buddhir eva ca

ahankara itiyam me

bhinna prakrtir astadha

 

Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego--all together these eight comprise My separated material energies.

 

PURPORT

The science of God analyzes the constitutional position of God and His diverse energies. Material nature is called prakrti, or the energy of the Lord in His different purusa incarnations (expansions) as described in the Satvata-tantra:

 

 

visnos tu trini rupani purusakhyany atho viduh ekam tu mahatah srastr dvitiyam tv anda-samsthitam trtiyam sarva-bhuta-stham tani jnatva vimucyate

 

 

"For material creation, Lord Krsna's plenary expansion assumes three Visnus. The first one, Maha-Visnu, creates the total material energy, known as mahat-tattva. The second, Garbhodakasayi Visnu, enters into all the universes to create diversities in each of them. The third, Ksirodakasayi Visnu, is diffused as the all-pervading Supersoul in all the universes and is known as Paramatma, who is present even within the atoms. Anyone who knows these three Visnus can be liberated from material entanglement." This material world is a temporary manifestation of one of the energies of the Lord. All the activities of the material world are directed by these three Visnu expansions of Lord Krsna. These purusas are called incarnations. Generally one who does not know the science of God (Krsna) assumes that this material world is for the enjoyment of the living entities and that the living entities are the causes (purusas), controllers and enjoyers of the material energy. According to Bhagavad-gita this atheistic conclusion is false. In the verse under discussion it is stated that Krsna is the original cause of the material manifestation. Srimad-Bhagavatam also confirms this. The ingredients of the material manifestation are separated energies of the Lord. Even the brahmajyoti, which is the ultimate goal of the impersonalists, is a spiritual energy manifested in the spiritual sky. There are no spiritual diversities in brahmajyoti as there are in the Vaikunthalokas, and the impersonalist accepts this brahmajyoti as the ultimate eternal goal. The Paramatma manifestation is also a temporary all-pervasive aspect of the Ksirodakasayi Visnu. The Paramatma manifestation is not eternal in the spiritual world. Therefore the factual Absolute Truth is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Krsna. He is the complete energetic person, and He possesses different separated and internal energies. In the material energy, the principal manifestations are eight, as above mentioned. Out of these, the first five manifestations, namely earth, water, fire, air and sky, are called the five gigantic creations or the gross creations, within which the five sense objects are included. They are the manifestations of physical sound, touch, form, taste and smell. Material science comprises these ten items and nothing more. But the other three items, namely mind, intelligence and false ego, are neglected by the materialists. Philosophers who deal with mental activities are also not perfect in knowledge because they do not know the ultimate source, Krsna. The false ego--"I am," and "It is mine," which constitute the basic principle of material existence--includes ten sense organs for material activities. Intelligence refers to the total material creation, called the mahat-tattva. Therefore from the eight separated energies of the Lord are manifest the twenty-four elements of the material world, which are the subject matter of Sankhya atheistic philosophy; they are originally offshoots from Krsna's energies and are separated from Him, but atheistic Sankhya philosophers with a poor fund of knowledge do not know Krsna as the cause of all causes. The subject matter for discussion in the Sankhya philosophy is only the manifestation of the external energy of Krsna, as it is described in the Bhagavad-gita.

 

 

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

Remain an atheist if that is your desire.

 

Hare Krishna

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

 

http://www.prabhupadavani.org/Morning_Walks/Walks_audio/MW012.MP3 [right-click save as to download]

[Guest guest]

your wrong i am sorry

 

krishna expands to vishnu through balarama etc read your scriptures and vishnu has 60 of 64 qaulities of krishna so he is different than krishna. we are all coming from krishna. vishnu creates this universe and krishna is enjoying in vraja. yes vishnu comes from krishna but he is still different in qaulities, so krishna indirectly creates through vishnu who is almost a complete expansion.

 

just chant and be happy

[Guest guest]

Krishna displays more qualities then any of his expansions, but they are all the same Supreme Lord.

 

From the purport of the Srimad Bhagavatam 2.4.10 by A.C.Bhaktivedanta:

 

"The expansions of different forms of the lord, as from Krishna to Baladeva to Sankarsana, from Sankarsana to Vasudeva, from Vasudeva to Aniruddha, from Aniruddha to Pradyumna, and then again to second Sankarsana and from him to the Narayana-Purusavataras, and innumerable other forms which are compared to the constant flowing of the uncountable waves of a river, are all one and the same."

 

In Krsna Sandarbha Jiva Goswami says there are two types of expansions of The Supreme Lord:

 

 

"This is confirmed in the Varaha Purana:

 

The two kinds of expansions from the Supreme Personality of Godhead are : 1. svamsa (personal expansions) and 2. vibhinnamsa (separate persons). The svamsa expansions are unlimitedly powerful. Their form and personality are the same as the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself.

 

There is not the slightest difference between the svamsa expansions and the Original Personality of Godhead. The vibhinnamsa expansions are very weak in comparison to Them."

 

Brahma Samhita 5.46

 

"The light of one candle being communicated to other candles, although it burns separately in them, is the same in its quality. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda who exhibits Himself equally in the same mobile manner in His various manifestations.

 

PURPORT

 

The presiding Deities of Hari-dhama, viz., Hari, Narayana, Vishnu, etc., the subjective portions of Krishna, are being described. The majestic manifestation of Krishna is Narayana, Lord of Vaikuntha, whose subjective portion is Karanodakasayi Vishnu, the prime cause, whose portion is Garbhodakasayi. Kshirodakasayi is again the subjective portion of Garbhodakasayi Vishnu. The word "Vishnu" indicates all-pervading, omnipresent and omniscient personality. In this sloka the activities of the subjective portions of the Divinity are enunciated by the specification of the nature of Kshirodakasayi Vishnu. The personality of Vishnu, the embodied form of the manifestive quality (sattva-guna) is quite distinct from that of Sambhu who is adulterated with mundane qualities. Vishnu's subjective personality is on a level with that of Govinda. Both consist of the unadulterated substantive principle. Vishnu in the form of the manifest causal principle is identical with Govinda as regards quality."

 

In His Govinda Bhasya; Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana, the great scholar and acharya has written:

 

Isvara is supremely independent. He is the master of all potencies. He enters the universe and controls it. He awards both material enjoyment and ultimate liberation to the individual spirit souls residing in material bodies. Although He is one, He manifests in many forms. They who understand the transcendental science maintain that He is not different from His own transcendental form and qualities. Although He cannot be perceived by the material senses, He can be perceived by bhakti. He is changeless. He reveals His own spiritual, blissful form to His devotees.

 

"Of all the eternals, one is the supreme eternal. Of all

conscious entities, one is the supreme conscious entity."

- - Svetasvatara Upanisad 6.13

 

As a vaidurya jewel manifests many different colors, so the Supreme Lord manifests many different forms. Each of these forms is the same perfect, complete, and pure Supreme Lord. In some forms the Lord displays all His qualities, and other forms the Lord does not display all His qualities. Therefore a wise devotee may meditate on all the Lords qualities, as described in the scriptures, as being present in the particular form of the Lord that is chosen for worship.

 

Both Lord Hari and His associates are the same persons in both previous and subsequent actions. Why is that? The sutra explains: "sarvabhedad" because of complete non-difference. This means that because there is no difference in Their personalities, the same Lord Hari and the same associates present in the previous actions are also present in the subsequent actions. That Lord Hari remains one even though He expands into many forms is confirmed in the Gopala-tapane Upanisad in these words:

 

eko pi san bahudha yo vabhati

"Although He is one, the Supreme Lord appears in many forms."

Also, in the Smriti-sastra it is said:

ekaneka-svarupaya

"Although He is one, the Supreme Lord appears in many forms."

 

This is also true of the Lord's liberated associates, who remain one even though they appear in many forms. The forms of the Supreme Lord are undivided. They are all full of eternity, knowledge, infinity, and bliss.

 

In this way it is said that although the Lord's forms present a very wonderful variety, still They are all one in essence. Although this truth was also described in sutra 3.2.14, the merciful teacher of Vedanta repeats the same teaching so this very difficult topic may be clearly understood.

 

The Supreme Lord is identical with each of His forms. They are all Him. That a certain form of the Lord is His original form, or an expansion of that form, or an expansion of the expansion is determined only by how much of His powers the Lord chooses to display when He manifests that form. Only in that way are some forms of the Lord considered higher and others less high. The great devotees of the Lord declare:

 

The Lord's forms are considered greater or lesser on the basis of how much of His transcendental power the Lord chooses to manifest when He reveals them."

 

From Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Sri Tattva Sutra

 

"7. tacchaktitastatvadhikyamiticcenna tadabhedat

 

If someone claims, "The Lord is different from His potency", then I reply, "No. It is not so, for they are not different."

 

If someone claims that the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the creator of the worlds, is different from His potency, then this sutra is spoken to refute him. Because the Supreme Personality of Godhead is not different from His many potencies, the potencies are not different from Him. This is described in the following words of the Nyaya-sastra:

 

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master of all potencies, is not different from His potencies."

 

In the Svetasvatara Upanisad (6.8.) it is said:

 

"The Lord's potencies of knowledge, power and action share His own nature. They are not different from Him."

[Yesu_Bhaktan]

[qoute]Krishna displays more qualities then any of his expansions, but they are all the same Supreme Lord.

 

 

[gosay]

many curse the scinece, but its a blessing for a every devotee.....we anywyas dont know the wondes of this creation, like if a scinetist told us with a proof that the earth revolved around the sun, we belived, if a scientist said that current could be produced with a use of a sunlight with the help of a solar pannale we belived, if he is digging the greatness of the gods creation, why do we egoistic devotess always run behind them, if they were to accpet that yes its all gods creation, then where would we get the close up pictures of mars, colse up picture of the universe, or the media with wchihc we are communicating,?????? they are ment to be like that, and there are doing what best they can, and as we too.

one great man once said, we find our thoughts in the outside world......if there is a cooruption in our mind we see corruption every where.

 

and by the way a small message to my dear scientist over there, thank you for all your DISCOVERIES(not inventions) remember that anything that you are assuming fo creating is already available, you just discovered it, if ever there isnt a space to discover...there is no u...there is no this.

thnk u