Guru Parampara

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/sri_guru/sri_guru_10.html

 

Devotee: Can you explain how the principle of disciplic succession works? I Was under the impression that in your teaching there must ke an unkroken chain of disciplic succession beginning with God Himself, in order for the knowledge to be properly understood. But when I read Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita As It Is, I found that the disciplic succession contains only thirty-eight names, although it says that the system is fifty centuries old. Is this a complete list, or are some names left out? How are we to understand these apparent historical discrepancies?

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Our guru parampara, disciplic succession, follows the ideal, not the body; it is a succession of instructing spiritual masters, not formal initiating spiritual masters. In a song about our guru parampara written by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, it is mentioned, mahaprabhu sri caitanya radha krsna nahe anya rupanuga janera jivana : the highest truth of Krsna consciousness comes down through the channel of siksa gurus, instructing spiritual masters. Those who have the standard of realization in the proper line have been accepted in the list of our disciplic succession. It is not a diksa guru parampara, a succession of formal initiating gurus.

 

Diksa, or initiation is more or less a formal thing; <font color="red">the substantial thing is siksa </font color> , or spiritual instruction. And if our siksa and diksa gurus or instructing and initiating spiritual masters are congruent, then we are most fortunate. There are different gradations of spiritual masters. In the scriptures, the symptoms of the guru and the symptoms of the disciple have been described: the guru must be qualified in so many ways, and the disciple must also be qualified. Then when they come in connection, the desired result will be produced.

 

==

man you really have to research with Pure devotees to find out the answer. Thank god for internet /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Guest guest]

<blockquote>

Sorry

 

But where and who did Bakti Rakshak Sridhara Deva rejected some disciple totally?

 

And also that Bipini Bihari Goswami rejected Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura is only said like that from some. Others say that some of his followers rejected Bhaktivinode Thakura.

</blockquote>

 

Some of the disciples Srila Sridhar Maharaj rejected:

1) the sannyasa disciple, "Bhakti Rasika Acharya Maharaj" who was rejected because he was offensive to other disciples and because he was a tyrant.

2) Madanmatan das in London, who engaged in an extramarital affair with the wife of another disciple of Srila Sridhar Maharaj.

 

<blockquote>

And also that Bipini Bihari Goswami rejected Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura is only said like that from some.

</blockquote>

 

Bipin Bihari Goswami published his rejection of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura in a book he wrote. The same facts are also published in books from Bipin Bihari Goswami's residence at Baghnapara (near Ambika Kalna).

[Guest guest]

<blockquote>

Such respect for the Goswami was not so visible in Saraswati Thakur. In fact in later years Saraswati Thakur reinitiated (hari-nama, mantra-diksa, and sannyasa) a prominate disciple of Bibin Bihari Goswami who became know as Bhaktivivek Bharati Maharaja. There is no hiding the truth - Saraswati Thakur totally rejected the idea that Bipin Bihari Goswami was a spiritual preceptor of Bhaktivinode and we are also accepting the same conclusion.

- Narasingha Maharaj

</blockquote>

 

Pankaj, you wrote:

how can Guru reject YET Diksya still remains. But it must do, since it is accepted universally

 

---

 

I'm not sure I understand you. But as Narasingha Maharaj said above, "Saraswati Thakur totally rejected the idea that Bipin Bihari Goswami was a spiritual preceptor of Bhaktivinode"

 

When he says this, Narasingha Maharaj is quoting Srila Sridhar Maharaj, who said the same thing.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Is receiving siksa possible without first receiving some formal initiation rite that some call diksa?

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

Such respect for the Goswami was not so visible in Saraswati Thakur. In fact in later years Saraswati Thakur reinitiated (hari-nama, mantra-diksa, and sannyasa) a prominate disciple of Bibin Bihari Goswami who became know as Bhaktivivek Bharati Maharaja. There is no hiding the truth - Saraswati Thakur totally rejected the idea that Bipin Bihari Goswami was a spiritual preceptor of Bhaktivinode and we are also accepting the same conclusion.

- Narasingha Maharaj

 

 

 

Pankaj, you wrote:

how can Guru reject YET Diksya still remains. But it must do, since it is accepted universally

 

---

 

I'm not sure I understand you. But as Narasingha Maharaj said above, "Saraswati Thakur totally rejected the idea that Bipin Bihari Goswami was a spiritual preceptor of Bhaktivinode"

 

When he says this, Narasingha Maharaj is quoting Srila Sridhar Maharaj, who said the same thing.

 

 

 

Prabhupada [bhaktisiddhanta] did reject, though Bhaktivinoda was still initiated by Bipini Vihari. Also though if you read from those links, that Bhaktivinoda took this Diksya out of Formality, because [caste goswamis u know the story], so He did that. And most amazingly is that Gauranga Mahaprabhu told Bhaktivinoda in a dream to take this Diksya. So indeed this is some plan Mahaprabhu contructed and here we are talking about it. Gaura hari!

[stonehearted]

If you read Bhaktivinoda's references to Bipin Bihari Goswami in his autobiography and some of his songs, there's no indication that the connection was merely formal. However, things seemed to sour a little when Bhaktivinoda Thakura had different ideas about the Yogapith's location, and the relationship between the status of brahmanas and vaishnavas. BB Goswami ultimately did write something indicating a clear break, but Bhaktivinoda always expressed the utmost respect and reverence for his diksa guru and his siksa guru. But it's clear to many of us that Babaji Maharaja's influence was progressively stronger in later years than Sri Goswami's.

[Guest guest]

Babhru Prabhu,

 

Do you happen to know where I can find a reference to that song of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur where he mentions Bipin Bihari Goswami and manjari swarup

 

- Murali

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

Can I ask one question for you,

 

 

Bhaktivinoda is eternally liberated, so was Bipini Vihari rejecting him of any substance or value. It doesn't make any sence to me.

[stonehearted]

Murali, I'll look. It may be in Sukavak's book. Anyway, I'll poke around and let you know.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for that Babhru Prabhu

 

I have just been working on a document that lists all the names and years of significant events. Nothing for publishing on the net really, just a reference document I can refer to from time to time, when someone asks me about something.

[Guest guest]

Krishna is in control of everything.

 

One way of looking at the rejection is that Krishna wanted to create some extraordinary circumstances so that later generations of devotees could learn some lessons from the history that happened. There are lots of things to consider when we look at the whole picture.

 

One thing that comes to my mind, though, is that Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur was utterly convinced that the birthplace of Mahaprabhu was in Mayapura on the eastern side of the current stream of the Ganga. His conviction is very wonderful. I adore his vision, and how he saw Mahaprabhu.

 

Other people may choose to disagree with his vision but I don't care. Let them think as they choose. But I adore the person who gave us this meditation: "Jaya Radha Madhava Kunjabihari Gopijanaballava Girivaradhari". That meditation has come to us from Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur.

 

- Murali

[stonehearted]

On p. 94 of his book, Hindu Encounter with Modernity, Sukavak cites two refernces to BBG in BVT's Gita-mala (Siddhi-lalasa section) (1893):

 

"When will Vilasa Manjari [bBG's manjari svarupa] and Ananga Manjari see me and, being very merciful, soeak the following essential words?"

 

and

 

"O Vilasa Manjari, Ananga Manjari, andn Rupa Manjari, please notice me and accept me at your feet, bestowing on me the essence of all perfection."

 

Sukavak also cites BVT's Amrita-pravaha-bhasya (1895):

"Bipin Bihari Goswami, the excellent Prabhu, is the shakti avatar of Vipina-vihari-hari [Krishna]. Seeing that his servant had fallen into the well of material life, he assumed the form of a gosvami-guru and rescued me."

 

And he cites Bhagavatarka-marici-mala (1901):

"My exalted master, Bipin Bihari Goswami Prabhu, is the moon in the family of Sri Vamsi Vadanananda. I hold his order on my head."

 

I'm not sure whether I've seen these elsewhere.

[Guest guest]

Babhru Prabhu,

 

Thanks for that. It is enough. I will look at Gita-mala because that particular line is the one I was seeking. When I come to think of it, this statement echoes the statement of Srila Narottama das Thakur Mahodaya in song 19 of Prarthana where he writes:

 

1. sri-rupa pascate ami rahiba bhita hana

donhe punah kahibena ama pane cana

I quietly follow behind Sri Rupa-manjari.

When will she say to me: "Fetch some water for the Divine Couple?

2. sadaya hrdaya donhe kahibena hasi

kothaya paile rupa ei naba dasi

When will the Divine Couple, compassionately smiling, say:

"Where has Rupa-manjari gotten this young maidservant?"

3. sri-rupa-manjari tabe donha bakya suni

manjulali dila more ei dasi ani

Hearing these words, Sri Rupa-manjari will say:

"This maidservant was given to me by Manjulali. (the spiritual name of Sri Lokanath Goswami)"

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

I recieved this from a devotee:

 

</p>Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakura: According to the pancaratrika-guru-parampara, the diksha-guru of Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakura is Sri Vipina Bihari Gosvami, who is situated in the pancaratrika-parampara of Sri Sri Jahnava Thakurani.

</p> From our other viewpoint, no one can deny that Sri Bhaktivinoda Thakura’s life is imprinted with the stamp of Srila Jagannatha Dasa Babaji Maharaja’s anugatya (guidance). Vaishnava Sarvabhauma Srila Jagannatha Maharaja is a disciple of the famous Madhu-sudana Dasa Babaji Maharaja in the parampara of Sri Baladeva Vidyabhushana. It is not necessary to say that Vaishnava Sarvabhauma Srila Jagannatha Dasa Babaji Maharaja is superior to Sri Vipina Bihari Gosvami in tattva-jnana, bhajana-siksha, etc. </p>

[Kulapavana]

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta assembled our parampara line by looking at the idealized transfer of both devotional knowledge and inspiration through time. however, we should be very careful minimizing the role other great devotees played in FORMING of our acharyas. they did not just pop out of Vaikuntha and become acharyas overnight. Bhaktivinoda's first contact with real Vaishnavas was through a Kartabhaja mystic guru. He mentions that clearly in his autobiography.

[Guest guest]

Kulapavana,

 

Let's consider for a moment the case of Srila Sanatan Goswami. According to all commentators, he was/is a nitya-siddha. He is an eternal associate of the Lord. In his earlier life, he was serving the Muslim king of Bengal, a cow eater and a killer of brahmanas. Someone might argue that Sri Sanatana Goswami could not be a nitya siddha, since, among other things, he told lies to the jail keeper who released him from prison (after the bribe was given), because Srila Sanatan Goswami said to the jail keeper that he, Sanatana, was going to leave jail and go to Mecca. Further, when Sri Sanatana Goswami appeared in front of Mahaprabhu a little later on, he was dressed like a "fakir", according to Sri Chaitanya Caritamrta. He looked as if he was a Muslim.

 

This same Srila Sanatan Goswami had accepted Vidya Vacaspati the brother of Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya as his guru. I think you would have a hard time showing that Vidya Vacaspati was a Vaishnava. Vidya Vacaspati was a representative of the school of thought of Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya. That is, Sankara's mayavada.

 

So, given that this is the life story of such an exalted nitya-siddha devotee as Sri Sanatan Goswami, I would suggest that only a brave man would dare to declare that when we look at the life of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur we see signs that tell us, with certainty, that he could not be a nitya-siddha.

 

Pundarika Vidyanidhi, the Guru of Gadadhara Pandit, was living like a prince and sometimes smoking a hukka (they didn't smoke tobacco in those days either, by the way). But Gadadhara Pandit had the realization that Pundarika Vidyanidhi is a divine person. Indeed, we might say that even Gadadhara Pandit had some momentary "illusion" in his mind when he initially found himself doubting Pundarika Vidyanidhi, and then a while later he realized that Pundarika is "GURU". In fact we learn, from CC, that Pundarika is Vrishabhanu Raja himself - an eternal resident of Goloka. Gadadhara Pandit is in fact Sri Radha, but it seems even Sri Radha may sometimes have a "momentary illusion".

 

Really, there is no sound reason to feel doubts about Srila Bhakivinode Thakur. The Thakur came into this world to preach to the people and tell them "Jaya Radha Madhava Kunjabihari Gopijanaballava Girivaradhari".

 

- m.

 

[Guest guest]

The two brothers, Sakara Mallika (Sanatan Goswami) and Dabira Khasa (Sri Rupa) said to Mahaprabhu:

 

mleccha-jati, mleccha-sevi, kari mleccha-karma

go-brahmana-drohi-sange amara sangama

 

TRANSLATION:

We belong to the caste of meat-eaters because we are servants of meat-eaters. Indeed, our activities are exactly like those of the meat-eaters. Because we always associate with such people, we are inimical toward the cows and brahmanas.

[Guest guest]

They said that they have "mleccha-karma".

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Madhya 1.197 Purport

There are two kinds of meat-eaters—one who is born in a family of meat-eaters and one who has learned to associate with meat-eaters. From Srila Rupa and Sanatana Gosvamis (formerly Dabira Khasa and Sakara Mallika) <font color="red">we</font color> can learn how one attains the character of a meat-eater simply by associating with meat-eaters. At the present moment in India the presidential offices are occupied by many so-called brahmanas, but the state maintains slaughterhouses for killing cows and makes propaganda against Vedic civilization. The first principle of Vedic civilization is the avoidance of meat-eating and intoxication. Presently in India, intoxication and meat-eating are encouraged, and the so-called learned brahmanas presiding over this state of affairs have certainly become degraded according to the standard given herein by Srila Rupa Gosvami and Sanatana Gosvami. These so-called brahmanas give sanction to slaughterhouses for the sake of a fat salary, and they do not protest these abominable activities. By deprecating the principles of Vedic civilization and supporting cow-killing, they are immediately degraded to the platform of mlecchas and yavanas. A mleccha is a meat-eater, and a yavana is one who has deviated from Vedic culture. Unfortunately, such mlecchas and yavanas are in executive power. How, then, can there be peace and prosperity in the state? The king or the president must be the representative of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. When Maharaja Yudhishthira accepted the rule of Bharata-varsha (formerly this entire planet, including all the seas and land), he took sanction from authorities like Bhishmadeva and Lord Krishna. He thus ruled the entire world according to religious principles. At the present moment, however, heads of state do not care for religious principles. If irreligious people vote on an issue, even though it be against the principles of the sastras, the bills will be passed. The president and heads of state become sinful by agreeing to such abominable activities. Sanatana and Rupa Gosvamis pleaded guilty to such activities; they therefore classified themselves among the mlecchas, although they had been born in a brahmana family.

 

“Birth after birth you have been My eternal servants. I am sure that Krishna will deliver you very soon.”

Madhya 1.215

[Kulapavana]

"So, given that this is the life story of such an exalted nitya-siddha devotee as Sri Sanatan Goswami, I would suggest that only a brave man would dare to declare that when we look at the life of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur we see signs that tell us, with certainty, that he could not be a nitya-siddha."

---------------------

 

and where did I say that SBT was not a nitya siddha? all I said was, that we should not create legends by twisting facts, as there is no need for it. the truth is much more wonderful than fiction.

 

to deny, that there is a VISIBLE AND OBVIOUS process of devotional development even in the lives of nitya siddhas is an ABSURD and deceptive practice.