Is reincarnation a contradiction?

[Guest guest]

Many devotees I have talked to have said that for them reincarnation seems to explain God's compassion more than other ideas from other traditions concerning life and death and life after death. They say that because a soul must be perfect to go to God, and because perfection for most souls can take more time than just one one life time, God (Krishna) out of His kindness allows souls to continue their spiritual journey in subsequent births. These devotees also object to what is commonly taught by mainstream Protestant Christianity (or Islam for that matter), the idea that after this life one goes to eternal hell or eternal heaven. If God is merciful and loving, they argue, why would he send someone to hell for ever?

 

On the other hand, AC Bhaktivedanta Swami taught (as do most Indian schools of thought) that this world is a place of misery. Dukhalayam ashavatam. A brahma bhuvana loka... from the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery, etc. Anityam asukham lokam. This world is a prison where rebelious souls have been incarcerated and are being punished. Here each good or bad action is rewarded with an equally good or bad reaction according to the law of karma, with no chance of forgiveness unless one becomes a suddha-bhakta, or pure devotee beyond nature. Also, he said that the souls here are nitya baddha, eternally conditioned, from time immemorial. They have been here for an unlimeted number of births and deaths.

 

On one hand, the concept of eternal hell is rejected, on the other hand it is taught that we have been sent here to suffer in this miserable material world since time immemorial. Nitya baddha sounds to me alot like eternal hell.

 

It seems contraditory to me. Comments please?

 

Eleven Seven.

[Guest guest]

The obvious: Sri Krsna!

 

But how can we forget Him!!? The creations, dissolutions, inert suspensions and then recreations, the passing from species to species to species, all this is required to make us completely forget our true identity and relationship with Krsna. Only in this way can we viably pretend to be rulers of all we survey with any degree of realism.

 

Srila Prabhupada writes that the word 'nitya' in 'nitya-baddha' actually means a very very very very long time, and 'since time immemorial' means so far back we cannot even imagine when it started. They are not absolutes. I doubt whether Biblical scholars understand whether the 'eternal gnashing of teeth' is really eternal or whether it is simply a very very very very long time. I think a wise man will accept the guru parampara and then lay that understanding on top of the Bible for any meaningful interpretation.

 

It is only the mind that accepts or rejects, thus subjectively determining what is bad and what is good, what is reward and what is punishment, what is pain and what is pleasure.

 

In actuality, Sri Krsna administers neither reward nor punishment. He simply guides us through our accept/reject mechanism back to Godhead. That is His desire. Whatever that may take. The more surrendered and less obstinate we are, the less force He requires to change us and direct us toward the right path.

 

We may perceive that force to be either reward or punishment according to our mind's conditioning. However we can learn to see all these life crises and between-life hells described in Srimad Bhagavatam as simply the mercy of Sri Krsna on the road back to Godhead.

 

And that's the big picture from outside the circle.

 

[Guest guest]

1. We made a choice to come here.

2. We have not been here forever just a extremely long time (some may be here for shorter periods than others) Therefore it is not eternal.

3. This place is hellish (weather one thinks its heavenly or hellish) because we are away from god. A fish out of water.

4. We can make the choice whether we want to turn to god or not its only as eternal as long as we choose to remain in this world of reality. Like a drug addict we put our selves in to hellish condition by being attached to temporary matter instead of the eternal lord.

 

Its alot different and fairer than a test for 70 years (Thats if you dont die young) and according to that short test you are awarded eternal hell or heaven.

 

Ultimately a devotee does not care whether he is in heaven or hell he is 100% attached to the lord who is beyongd the 2 dualities and has no self interest therefore the lord looks after him like a mother does a baby.

 

[Kulapavana]

"On one hand, the concept of eternal hell is rejected, on the other hand it is taught that we have been sent here to suffer in this miserable material world since time immemorial. Nitya baddha sounds to me alot like eternal hell."

 

you obviously have no real concept of Hell, do you?

 

to compare an average life on earth to life in hell as defined in abrahamic religions is completely bogus. and some lives here are very, very comfortable. does your life here seem like hell? maybe a visit to a real one will give you a better perspective. and here, you still have plenty of choices - in hell, you dont.

 

[Guest guest]

>>>" The creations, dissolutions, inert suspensions and then recreations, the passing from species to species to species, all this is required to make us completely forget our true identity and relationship with Krsna. Only in this way can we viably pretend to be rulers of all we survey with any degree of realism."

 

The presupposition here is that because of the soul's choice to "pretend to be rulers" i.e. to immitate God, she (the soul) has been sent here to this "miserable material world" untill she wakes up from her illusion, no matter how many inumerable lifetimes it takes to become perfect. The idea is that: trying and trying for billions of lifetimes to immitate God the soul finally becomes frustrated and seeks liberation from birth and death.

 

But what good does it do to take new births over and over again if the soul forgets all the lessons learned from the previous lifetimes? The soul can not learn from her past mistakes because, she can not remember them. Again, reincarnation seems to be a uselessly complicated explaination. Illogical.

[Guest guest]

Are invalid. Best not to speculate. Give Krsna a chance to answer your puzzle.

 

[Guest guest]

Look at it from the perspective of your eternal imperishable indestructive soul. Then this world becomes like a dream state which while even pleasant at times .... is still not reality. Awaking from the dream, there was no pain, no tiger, no misery. It was just a dream. It's time to be unplugged from ahankara's spell.

 

Neo

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

You may forget your births but God doesn’t – He is the one conducting your births and deaths – he is the one bringing you back to Him – according to your merit and your desire.

 

Krishna says:

 

Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, that state he will attain without fail. [bG 8.6]

 

That is up to us – what state of being we can remember – however – death bed realizations and transformations are rare and unlikely.

 

At the moment of death – especially as the gross body rejects the subtle bodies – there is a great attachment that overcomes those who have a propensity for misidentification of the body for the self – in a mad desire for another body - one is thus absorbed in the death experience.

 

As noted the term eternally conditioned isn’t likened to forever – it’s just a long long time – so of course time is essentially a product of the material manifestation and when that manifestation vanishes – so to do all the hells therein.

 

Krishna says:

 

Those who are envious and mischievous, who are the lowest among men, are cast by Me into the ocean of material existence, into various demoniac species of life. [bG 16.19]

 

So when we sink too far in our desires and our activities and - if we perchance make offenses to God or His servants – we need to become reconditioned to free us of the illusions.

 

Prabhupada says that the state builds and maintains prisons but - it doesn’t not mean that the state plans or desires people to be imprisoned therein.

 

Again that is OUR choice – and what is the reason - to reform the rebellious spirit souls - not so much to punish them.

 

The answers to these questions may seem conflicted but they are not.

 

YS,

 

BDM

 

Please read the Bhagavad Gita As It Is – the subject is nicely discussed – even in the Introduction.

[Guest guest]

the material world is not made to make you learn from your mistakes.. it is made only to make people remain in it suffering for birth, death and disease...

 

so there's no reason to give us the possibility to remember what we have done in our past lives to learn and go away..

 

another point is that even if we remember we do not have the possibility to use the lesson to stop to suffer and quit the material world, because there's karma... every action calls a reaction, and if we learn to stop to make bad actions, we make good actions, and we have to take new bodies again and again to get the advantages given by acting positively..

 

the only way is to practise a spiritual path...

 

in this way the impossibility to save ourselves from this actual hell, is no more a problem because the solution is in the hands of God... who, being the creator and sustainer of this "cause-effect" law.. has no problem in "perverting" it, when a sincere soul has a strong desire to go back to him ..

 

when i have understood my position of lover and servant of Sri Krsna Bhagavan, there's no reason for Him to leave me suffering in the material world.. a servant of God has nothing to do in maya's realm...

 

and krsna wipes away the remaining karma and call us back to him..

 

consider bhagavad gita 18.66..

 

krsna says.. "you surrender... i will make you free from the reaction of your past actions"

 

there's no system to quit this world, there's only sistems to develope total love for God... in this way God will call us out from this world to enjoy the full and pure relationship

[vijay]

"But what good does it do to take new births over and over again if the soul forgets all the lessons learned from the previous lifetimes? The soul can not learn from her past mistakes because, she can not remember them. Again, reincarnation seems to be a uselessly complicated explaination. Illogical. "

 

The way I see it you do remeber the lessons to some extent, your bought up in a family and environment that mirrors your conciousness at the time of your previous death, ie if you were a sence enjoyer you will get ta family which are the same, if you died saintly you will be born in a saintly family and thus relearn the lessons, its also the case that the subcouncious holds lessons, people are born with differing attributes, ie mozart compiled his famous composition at 5?, from a young age some kids are scared of water some arent, heights some arent.

 

Then you've got a whole load of circumstantial evidence of past life regressions during hypnosis and a whole load of kids and adults that to this day have claimed and been tested by scientist about past life memories which point to some sort of previous existence.

 

So considering the above reincarnation to me seems to be somewhat more reasonable than a totally unprovable unlogical concept of eternal hell and heaven.

[Guest guest]

is a place where conditioned jivas are given a chance to suffer for their previous karma and start with a clean slate. Life in hell is temporary, just as it is in heaven. But as someone else said, being in this planet is bad enough. Hell is way too worse.

 

Ultimately, all of this knowledge if of little use. What is important is that we should surrender to Sri Hari.

 

 

[Guest guest]

>>>"But as someone else said, being in this planet is bad enough. Hell is way too worse."

 

Yeah, exactly, that's my point. It is taught that this life is "hellish". And you may say nitya-baddha is a "very very" long time, but ACBS said time immemorial. I don't think there is a difference. According to Hindu teaching, the souls are imprisoned here untill they achieve "perfection", which could take billions of births... still seems cruel and needlessly complicated.

 

And still to me it makes no sense on a practicle level if the soul can't recall past lives. All one know's is their present reality. Why would God continually make the soul keep returning to a hellish "miserable" world over and over again, but not give him any rememdrance of why he is imprisoned there in the first place?

 

Also ethically speaking, we can see the results of such a philosphy in India. The belief in reincarnation has simply feed the flames of insensitivity and prejudice via the caste system. The idea that everything is goverened by karma causes people to be callous to the suffering of others. ACB Swami also taught that to do charity work is "second class", decoration on a dead body.

 

Reincarnation is unethical and illogical. I believe God is more kind than that.

 

[Guest guest]

Not that there is anything wrong with charity and doing good but if you don't clear up the bodily misconception issue you still stay stuck in samsara it seems and ultimately you are just decorating a dead body imo.

[Guest guest]

for me anyways is wether you believe in reincarnation or not anyone who identifies the self with the physical body has insufficient intelligence and time will prove this to them eventually in the from of death or whatever.

 

- D.B. Cooper Jr.

[Guest guest]

Reincarnation is not a "theory" it is something that many people (including me) have directly experienced as a fact.

 

see this:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation01.html