Birth Control Myths : by Urmila Devi Dasi (ACBSP)

[stonehearted]

"J.S. das": "he reason there was no punishment for abortion in vedic times was because it didn't exist, illicit sex was not practiced generally by the masses so there was no unwanted children to abort. . . . in vedic culture there is no illicit sex so there is no abortion, so why would they need a law to govern something that doesn't exist."

 

If that were indeed the case, why did Krishna use the danger of varnasankara in one of his arguments for Arjuna's leadership in the Kuruksetra battle?

[Guest guest]

it was not a common practice performed by the masses but it was not unheard of under exceptional circumstances, this being one of them.

 

J.S das

[vijay]

varnasankara definition doesnt need to mean illicit sex but marriage between incompitible/nonideal varnas. Arjunas argument is that these women will be forced to take shelter of other men who do not have the samskaras or moral code upbringing of the ksytriyas thus leading to a degradation in population.

 

Just a thought

[stonehearted]

vijay: "varnasankara definition doesnt need to mean illicit sex but marriage between incompitible/nonideal varnas. Arjunas argument is that these women will be forced to take shelter of other men who do not have the samskaras or moral code upbringing of the ksytriyas thus leading to a degradation in population."

 

I was responding to J.S. das' assertion that "there was [sic] no unwanted children to abort."

 

Varnasankara is generally understood, at least by most of us in the West whose exposure to the concept is due to Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita As It Is, as "unwanted children." There may be many factors that make children seem less than desirable. Birth outside marriage may be one, and the kind of undesirable "caste" mixing you cite may be another. I was responding specifically to the term "unwanted children" in J.S. das' posting, in a generic sense. Perhaps I should have used boldfacing and other cues to enhance my post's clarity. And the simple, very narrow, point I intended to make was that if there were no instances of unwanted children in Arjuna's experience, Krishna would probably not have used that particular argument.

[Guest guest]

We must not fail to take into account what is with the destruction of the human form is the purpose of that human form. That we know is self and God realization.

 

Leaders of a society have the duty to see to the protection of every citizen including the animals and trees what to speak of someone who is receiving a rare human form.

 

To deny someone such an opputunity through abortion is totally demonic and so is the states' acquisence by allowing abortion.

[Guest guest]

I was responding to J.S. das' assertion that "there was [sic] no unwanted children to abort."

_________

 

yes like i said not in a wholistic worldly sense, the abortion nowaday's is common day practice around the whole world every year thousands if not millions of children are aborted.

like i said in vedic culture(the whole world) it was not common place for abortion but it was not unheard of to terminate a baby's life, for example when duryodan was born the brahmana's saw great demoniac ohmen's appear and advised that he be killed immediately as he would bring great disturbance to the world, but duryodana's mother objected and kept him none the less.

so it was not unheard of but was an exception to the normal practice of the common population as it was unecessary.

Also perfect vedic culture is satya yuga were 100 percent religious principles are practiced by everyone, in the time of arjuna and the pandava's it was dwarpa yuga 50 percent religious principles followed, so that is my point anyway.

 

All glories to Srila Prabhupada

 

J.S das

 

p.s i'll try and find statistic's of how many abortions a year a performed world wide.

[Guest guest]

Abortion Statistics - World - U.S. - Demographics - Reasons

Abortion Statistics - World

 

In 54 countries (61% of the world population) abortions are legal.

In 97 countries (39% of the world population) abortions are illegal.

There are approximately 46 million abortions conducted eacy year, 20 million of them obtained illegally.

There are approximately 126,000 abortions conducted each day.

Abortion Statistics - U.S.

 

Approximately 1,370,000 abortions occur annually in the U.S. according to the Alan Guttmacher Institute. Click here to see the approximate number of abortions in the U.S. per year from 1973-1996. In 2001, 1.31 million abortions took place.

88% of abortions occur during the first 6 to 12 weeks of pregnancy.

60% of abortions are performed on women who already have one or more children.

47% of abortions are performed on women who have already had one or more abortions.

43% of women will have had at least one abortion by the time they are 45 years old (this statistic includes miscarriages in the term "abortion").

Abortion Statistics - Demographics

Age - The majority of women getting an abortion are young. Sponsored Links

Partial Birth Abortion

Fetal development pictures include second and third trimester views

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Abortions

Abortion Info Medical Info and Resources

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Free Abortion Tips

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52% are younger than 25 years old and 19% are teenagers. The abortion rate is highest for those women aged 18 to 19 (56 per 1,000 in 1992.)

Marriage - 51% of women who are unmarried when they become pregnant will receive an abortion. Unmarried women are 6 times more likely than married women to have an abortion. 67% of abortions are from women who have never been married.

Race - 63% of abortion patients are white, however, black women are more than 3 times as likely to have an abortion, and Hispanic women are 2.5 times as likely.

Religion - 43% of women getting an abortion claimed they were Protestant, while 27% claimed they were Catholic.

Abortion Statistics - Decisions to Have an Abortion (U.S.)

 

25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.

21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.

14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.

12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)

10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.

7.9% of women want no (more) children.

3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.

2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.

Abortion Statistics - Using Contraception (U.S.)

 

54% of women having an abortion said they used some form of contraception during the month they became pregnant.

90% of women who are at risk for unplanned pregnancies are using contraception

8% of women having an abortion say they have never used contraception.

It is possible that up to 43% of the decline in abortion from 1994-2000 can be attributed to using emergency contraception.

Abortion Statistics - Pro-Life vs. Pro-Choice

 

According to a USA Today, CNN Gallup Poll in May, 1999 - 16% of Americans believe abortion should be legal for any reason at any time during pregnancy and 55% of American believe abortion should be legal only to save the life of the mother or in cases of rape or incest.

According to a Gallup Poll in January, 2001 - People who considered themselves to be pro-life rose from 33% to 43% in the past 5 years, and people who considered themselves to be pro-choice declined from 56% to 48%.

 

J.S das

[Guest guest]

babies are murdered every year!!!!!!!

[Guest guest]

If abortion didn't exist in Vedic times, then why does the Manu-samhita prohibit aborting fetuses of brahminical parentage. Obviously abortions did exist to some degree, but were only punished in the above instance.

 

Also, you say that illicit sex did not exist in Vedic culture, but that seems rather foolish. Everyone knows that prostitutes existed in Vedic times and they are mentioned throughout scripture. It was an accepted profession, although not of course for the brahminical class. I think you are confusing brahminical culture and Vedic culture. Vedic culture included all classes of people such as sudras, dancers, prostitutes, laborers, etc., most of whom did not follow brahminical morales.

 

If abortion was not illegal for the lower classes in Vedic times, then why should we make it so now?

 

Morality is something better taught rather than forced.

 

[Guest guest]

when i said it didn't exist it means in a general sense......obviuosly it did exist but not in a \way totally consuming the lives of everybody around the world. I already said this previously.

No i am not confused.

Brahmana's follow 4 reg's

Kasatrya's have a concession to kill and eat meat under guidelines and they can have more than one wife. They follow vedic guidelines.

Vaishya's follow 4 regs and engage in business, agriculture and banking etc.

and Sudra's follow 4 reg's, but in order for them to do that they must be lookied after and checked by the other classes.

The brahmana's would guide the ksatrya's to rule the population fairly and according to vedic injuctions, if not they would be checked by the brahmana's.

The ksatrya's would rule the population as emporer's and kings plus make up the warrior or military division's.

The vaishya's would engage in agriculture etc.

The sudra's were given food and shelter in exchange for work and the other caste's.

The job of the Vedic king or devotee king was to ensure the elevation of the people towards spiritual progress and enforce this were necessary, there are many examples in the srimad bhagatavam.

I already said this before it didn't exist means in general it was not practiced, but of course they were there, it is the material world, but checked, not openly acceptable.

 

I don't know about the Manu samhita, i read only srila prabhupada's books.

 

J.S das

 

[Guest guest]

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J.S das

[Guest guest]

was anyone not following the prescribed rules and regulations for vedic culture was considered an outcaste?????? outcaste means not in line with vedic culture. If you donnot follow the above caste's your an outcaste.

Your point about prostitues and dancers mainly applies to the Ksatrya caste were concession is allowed according to rules and standards.

 

J.S das

[vijay]

Sorry babhuru prabhu, I should of read the posts properly

[Kulapavana]

we may theoretically argue all kinds of propositions, but nobody will take us seriously as a social movement unless our own behavior is exemplary and inspiring to other people.

 

there is nothing worse than people who criticize others while not providing a practical and real example of ideal life in their own movement. we should tone down our criticism of others and concentrate on problems in our own society...

 

you were speaking about unwanted children... how much focus in our movement was there on providing proper upbringing of our children? we had gurukulas where kids did not have decent and sufficient food while big time sannyasis lived like royalty... our system failed miserably and we still dont have working social structures as we claim are neccessary, so people like Urmila d.d. should first fix our own problems before we start "fixing" the world problems. These guys have no clue how hollow thieir lectures are... /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[vijay]

"so people like Urmila d.d. should first fix our own problems before we start "fixing" the world problems. These guys have no clue how hollow thieir lectures are.."

 

I think that critisism of Urmila Mataji is unfair, she too was a mother in the movement and had a very difficult time in iskcon like many other women because firstly she was a woman and secondly she had children.

She helps and encourages many parents to look after children, and she her self has run a school for many years trying to help the kids in our movement, she has done alot for the kids in the movement more than most so if anyone has a right to say anything about childcare then its her, please dont lump everyone in one category, otherwise its your words that seem more hollow than hers.

 

 

 

"Urmila Devi Dasi (Edith E. Best) joined ISKCON in 1973 in Chicago. Her primary work has been in the area of education. In 1982-83 in Detroit, Michigan, she and her husband started an ISKCON primary school, which gradually grew to include secondary students, where she served as Principal for eight years. She went on to found another primary and secondary school in North Carolina in 1990, where she continues to be the Principal. Urmila devi dasi has compiled Vaikuntha Children, a guidebook for education in ISKCON and is currently writing and coordinating the development of a Krsna conscious academic curriculum for primary and secondary students. She has for many years written on the education column for ISKCON's Back to Godhead magazine, where she is also associate editor. "

 

 

[Kulapavana]

precisely because she knows the problems firsthand devotees like her MUST work on solving the problems of our society FIRST... I know Urmila dd personally and respect her a lot. But, as she is a person of some statute in our movement, I expect a lot more from her and people in that category than just some moralizing lectures. It is very easy to speak of THEORETICAL solutions to the world problems. It is much, much harder to SHOW how it is really done in practice.

 

For example, Sandipani Muni School in Vrindavan - a great project in my opinion - actually works outside of ISKCON, because there are too many people in our Iskcon ranks who criticize that project while incompetent to produce anything better on their own soil. Such people should be ashamed of themselves. Urmila's school is (and was) private as well, which is significant too... As a private person she is an outstanding devotee, but I have to yet be impressed with her as a leader in our movement.

[Guest guest]

What my main objection is of calling her words hollow, when in fact she works tirelessly doing her best, I also know her personally and greatly impressed by her.

 

"precisely because she knows the problems firsthand devotees like her MUST work on solving the problems of our society FIRST"

 

 

So until she hasnt sorted out Iskcon she should shut up even though she has done her best and worked tirelessly with child care even setting up a school, but she can not speak out about anything until she sorts iskcon out?

 

 

 

"It is very easy to speak of THEORETICAL solutions to the world problems. It is much, much harder to SHOW how it is really done in practice. "

 

Well in her life she has been working tirelessly and has show results to the best of her abilities, may thats not good enough for some.

 

"too many people in our Iskcon ranks who criticize that project while incompetent to produce anything better on their own soil"

 

And your critising urmila mataji while you've not shown anything better.

 

"As a private person she is an outstanding devotee, but I have to yet be impressed with her as a leader in our movement. "

"But, as she is a person of some statute in our movement, I expect a lot more from her and people in that category than just some moralizing lectures"

 

She's one of the few people that has earned her leadership role, if you can do better then please do, its easy to speak words about not being impressed at someones effort but hey luckily your not the judge and krishna sees the efforts of a soul. Dont put evryone in your category's evryone has certain amount of capacity and purity that you can not know even though your expectations are high of them. Better to expect more from oneself. Than to slur otehrs which is just a mask for our own incompetence.

 

Anyway my only point is for you to call her hollow is wrong and fully unjustified.

 

Haribol

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"Dont put evryone in your category's evryone has certain amount of capacity and purity that you can not know even though your expectations are high of them. Better to expect more from oneself. Than to slur otehrs which is just a mask for our own incompetence."

 

Wouldn't it be nice if you practiced the same, as it applies to devotees connected to branches of the Gaudiya Math? (Many of whom are/were connected to Iskcon?) Do one's achievements have to appear in BTG, like Urmila's, before one is validated as a devotee worthy of association?

[Guest guest]

Selective abortion: 10 million girls 'missing' in India Mon Jan 9, 12:24 AM ET

 

 

 

Around 10 million female foetuses may have been aborted in India over the past two decades because of ultrasound sex screening and a traditional preference for boys, according to a study published online in The Lancet.

 

Researchers based in Canada and India looked through data from a national survey, conducted among 1.1 million households in 1998, and at information about 133,738 births that took place in 1997.

 

They found that in cases where the preceding child was a girl, the gender ratio for a second birth was just 759 girls to 1,000 boys.

 

And when the two previous children were girls, this ratio fell even further, to 719 girls to 1,000 boys.

 

On the other hand, when the preceding child or children were male, the gender ratio among successive births was about the same.

 

Based on the natural sex ratio in other countries, around 13.6-13.8 million girls should have been born in India in 1997 -- but the actual number was 13.1 million.

 

"We conservatively estimate that prenatal sex determination and selective abortion accounts for 0.5 million missing girls yearly," said one of the authors, Prabhat Jha of St. Michael's Hospital at the University of Toronto, Canada, on Monday.

 

"If this practice has been common for most of the past two decades since access to ultrasound became widespread, then a figure of 10 million missing female births would not be unreasonable."

 

The "girl deficit" is far more prominent in educated women, the investigators found.

 

The number of boys born as second children was twice as high among this group than among illiterate mothers.

 

However, the deficit did not vary by religion.

 

The study published by the London-based medical journal comes on the heels of a report last October by the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), which warned that infanticide or abortion was driving India towards a gender imbalance with alarming social consequences.

 

Afghanistan, China, Nepal, Pakistan and South Korea face similar problems, the UNFPA said.

 

 

 

[vijay]

"Wouldn't it be nice if you practiced the same, as it applies to devotees connected to branches of the Gaudiya Math? (Many of whom are/were connected to Iskcon?) Do one's achievements have to appear in BTG, like Urmila's, before one is validated as a devotee worthy of association? "

 

What are you on about, whats this got to do with "devotees being worthy of association", The simple point is devotees who have done their best (I dont care in iskcon or out) have a right to speak about whats dear to them, no matter whether someone else judges that they are not good enough or have not done enough to speak. (i.e the article which appears on the begining of this thread). If you feel someone has critisised another devotee unjustly then say so, i know urmila mataji therefore im expressing my objection to a statement, you can do the same.

 

Haribol

[Kulapavana]

""too many people in our Iskcon ranks who criticize that project while incompetent to produce anything better on their own soil"

 

And your critising urmila mataji while you've not shown anything better."

----------------------

 

Prabhu, I do what I can for the Sankirtan Movement of Lord Caitanya every day, I'm not an armchair philosopher, I assure you...

 

My point was, and still is: BOIL THE MILK! just like Srila Prabhupada wanted us to do. We focus too much on things we have absolutely no influence over, and neglect the most important points at home... Every day I deal with disillusioned Iskcon devotees and feel their pain. Big time leaders keep looking for "fresh new grass" while ignoring hundreds of nice and sincere devotees who gave much to the movement but who lately developed doubts about it's direction or it's leaders.

 

Like I said: It is easy to give moralising lectures to the karmis. It is much harder to provide a WORKING alternative. I will give our leaders the proper credit when they fix our internal problems, or at least: SHOW IN THEIR WRITING that they see the problem, and are working on the solution - because THIS IS THEIR JOB.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"What are you on about, whats this got to do with "devotees being worthy of association"

 

Prabhu, I also know Urmila dasi, and I am neither attacking nor defending her. I was responding to your statements which to me, appeared to be attacking Kulapavana by "exposing" what you felt was hypocrisy. And if you're going to take the hypocrisy route, that we can't judge other devotees, that we should only be concerned about ourselves, then it only makes sense that we have to apply the same principle for "outside" devotees and leaders. It is not a difficult concept to grasp. I've seen you criticize Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers and the various branches of the Gaudiya Math, using Sivarama Swami's book to back it up. Basically, a blanket rejection of the benefits their association may provide.

 

I think you know full well what I was saying. Defending Urmila dasi may be noble on your part, and I'm curious to see where this debate leads. However, you did open yourself up for criticism by countering with the "hypocrisy" tactic. I mean no offense. Just something to consider. Thankyou.

 

~HK

[vijay]

Kulapavana prabhu, sorry for my out burst yesterday, get moody before I go to sleep.

 

I agree that boiling the milk is needed and there is a problem with disillusioned devotees, my only point is that her words are not hollow as she has tried to do something about it and it may not be in her power to change everything yet. Prabhupada advised preaching and its purifying, he himself did it and told others to do it. Im sure if ISKCON was ideal it would be more powerful, but it doesnt mean that all preaching stops until ISKCON is fully sorted which will never happen. To be a leader is not just their job, while we act like the victims, mahaprabhu and prabhupada wants us all to be leaders, to whatever capacity we can, and if we dont take that service others with less potency may.

 

"Guest"

"And if you're going to take the hypocrisy route, that we can't judge other devotees, that we should only be concerned about ourselves, then it only makes sense that we have to apply the same principle for "outside" devotees and leaders. It is not a difficult concept to grasp. I've seen you criticize Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers and the various branches of the Gaudiya Math, using Sivarama Swami's book to back it up. Basically, a blanket rejection of the benefits their association may provide."

 

I think thats totally different, i hope i havent critised those devotees, but the fact is prabhupada generally advised Iskcon memebers to stay away from his god brothers, this is not critisim of them, but following prabhupadas desire. It wasnt a blanket rejection as he allowed us to approach some of the godbrothers for certain help.

 

Thats a whole other ball game.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Abortion is the act of demons but it's a fact that the man should take some responsibility too.

 

 

Kulapavana prabhu, sorry for my out burst yesterday, get moody before I go to sleep.

 

I agree that boiling the milk is needed and there is a problem with disillusioned devotees, my only point is that her words are not hollow as she has tried to do something about it and it may not be in her power to change everything yet. Prabhupada advised preaching and its purifying, he himself did it and told others to do it. Im sure if ISKCON was ideal it would be more powerful, but it doesnt mean that all preaching stops until ISKCON is fully sorted which will never happen. To be a leader is not just their job, while we act like the victims, mahaprabhu and prabhupada wants us all to be leaders, to whatever capacity we can, and if we dont take that service others with less potency may.

 

"Guest"

"And if you're going to take the hypocrisy route, that we can't judge other devotees, that we should only be concerned about ourselves, then it only makes sense that we have to apply the same principle for "outside" devotees and leaders. It is not a difficult concept to grasp. I've seen you criticize Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers and the various branches of the Gaudiya Math, using Sivarama Swami's book to back it up. Basically, a blanket rejection of the benefits their association may provide."

 

I think thats totally different, i hope i havent critised those devotees, but the fact is prabhupada generally advised Iskcon memebers to stay away from his god brothers, this is not critisim of them, but following prabhupadas desire. It wasnt a blanket rejection as he allowed us to approach some of the godbrothers for certain help.

 

Thats a whole other ball game.