Is everything pre-determined? Do we have to accept that everything is pre-determined?

[krsna]

Question:

 

I have been struggling for some time with questions such as: Is everything pre-determined? Do we have to accept that everything is pre-determined and occupy ourselves with devotional service while still performing our duties? Or do we have to strive toward a goal (even if that means being competitive) while still performing devotional service?

 

[krsna]

Question:

 

I have come to understand that in engaging oneself in spiritual life, one has to undergo a whole process of testing. This happens because Krishna is testing the devotee if he is ready for the spiritual world or not. What if one is scared of engaging oneself in spiritual life because of the fear that one will undergo an extreme testing phase? How would you encourage such a person to not lose hope and continue engaging oneself in spiritual life?

 

[Guest guest]

although i should probably be finding and qouting slokas for a complicated question like this i will attempt to give something from relization.

 

ok then,

 

so krishna may test us as we progress further and further in devotional service to ready us for the ultimate test and examination at death, as far as my personal relization is concerned and what i understand is that yes we are tested but never more than what we can handle.

 

As far as i understand krishna only acts to benefit your spiritual progress, so if he was to test you and there was an adverse affect it would not be in his best interest to do such a thing therefore the test would only be as much as you can handle to benefit you devotionally.

 

It is also understood that suffering or distress is a form of purification of karma to purify the conciousness so as to elevate the living entity from a state of ignorance that originally caused the suffering.

 

BUT!!! as everybody is seeing the world through there own eyes there will be a difference in how somebody deals with different circumstances or tests......example...

 

a devotee with 100 percent faith in krishna will see all circumstances as krishnas mercy even the happiness and distress

 

or

 

a non-devotee with no faith may chose to except the suffering as proof that god is not there or has a sick sense of humour.

 

So as the saying goes you can only move forwards or backwards in Krishna conciousness you cannot simply stand still,

so my understanding is we are being tested to move forwards otherwise we will stand still which is worthless or fail the test and have to try again later on untill we pass.

 

J.S das

[Guest guest]

is everything pre-determined.........

 

well it does seem that way but it does not mean that you do not have choices to make (left or right) it just simply means that krishna already knows what choices you will make even though you don't.

 

so it is pre-determined because krishna knows what is going to happen and which paths you will chose to follow.

 

it is pre-determined because somebody knows what will happen, if nobody knew it would not be pre-determined.

 

just my opinion.......

 

J.S das

[Avinash]

krishna already knows what choices you will make even though you don't.

 

Let us take a scenario. Suppose I have not decided which party I will vote for in the next election. So, I do not know. But, as you are saying Krsna knows what party I will vote for. Let us call that party as 'X'.

 

Is it ever possible that I will vote for some other party? No. Since Krsna cannot be wrong, no matter whatever happens, I will vote for X. I have only one option.

 

When there is only one option, how can we say that we have choices?

[Guest guest]

well good point but i think i already explained that previously......

 

as a living entity you still have a minute independence which means krishna gives you the chance to chose your own path.......

 

even krishna knows what choice you will make ulitmately you are making the choice through minute independence it is just that he knows what choice you will make.....

 

______

When there is only one option, how can we say that we have choices?

_____

 

because of minute independence...........there is not only option............

 

J.S das

[Avinash]

because of minute independence...........there is not only option............

 

Are you trying to say that we have more than one option due to minute independence? If so, could you give any example where we have more than one option? In the example I gave (about the party to vote for), there is only one option.

[Guest guest]

And who is this 'we'?

 

If it is the spirit soul, then 'we' have the choice of eating the fruit of the tree of the body or we can turn and address God who sits on the tree of the body with us.

 

When we look at things from down here, we are bound to become bewildered. We must always seek knowledge from the platform of the soul. We must see the world, our existence from that vantage point. Otherwise, ahankhara plays us for suckers and our words and thoughts serve only to further entrap us.

 

As far as the paradox about future time, we must realize that for the body the future does not exist now as it does for Sri Krsna who is completely beyond time. A two-dimensional character living in the plane of a piece of paper can only see the characters immediately adjacent to it. However an entity that is three-dimensional, transcendental to the plane of the paper can read all the writing on the page.

[Guest guest]

just because krishna knows what choices you will make it does not mean that your not making them.......we are sentient living beings not robots.......

material nature is not acting automatically, rather it is controlled by krishna on behalf of the living entities desire.......the options are you serve the material energy or the spiritual energy, krishna has clearly stated through out shastra this point, we have a choice, be covered by one of krishna's energies, material or spiritual it's your "CHOICE".......

 

thats called minute independence.

 

J.S das