One can learn even without Diksha. Then why is Guru Diksha so important???

[krsna]

Is Guru Diksha necessary? Does Guru Diksha has many forms? One can learn even without Diksha. Then why is Guru Diksha so important?

 

What is the relation between Guru and a disciple like and how does it start?

 

What is the disciple’s duty towards the Guru?

 

Can the Guru be one’s deity?

 

If a husband and a wife both take Diksha from the same Guru then does that make them brother and sister?

 

When there are so strict tests to test a disciple then are there tests for a Guru too?

 

Can a disciple who has had Diksha from one Guru get Diksha from another Guru? Would this be a sin?

[Guest guest]

 

One can learn even without Diksha. Then why is Guru Diksha so important???

 

 

On a more essential level that learning of transcendentalism from the guru IS diksha.

[Guest guest]

Good question, friend, and the answer is quite sublime and the essential nectar of the science of Krsna Consciousness.

 

Krsna's love for all of us is eternally and fully developed. So there is really nothing can be done to get Him to love us more. Krsna Consciousness has nothing to do with getting God to do anything. Even learning about Him only leaves us in frustration because when we reach the pinnacle of such learniong, the only thing we KNOW is that we know nothing about His love.

 

Krsna Consciousness is what we do. We DEVELOP our love for Him, because we have forgotten this inherant love due to much contamination from time immemorial.

 

We do not need diksa guru to learn about Krsna, he has made himself known by a variety of sources, none to be minimized. He gives us realization from within as Lord Paramatma, His shastra is available, greatly due to His glorious and confidential associate Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada laso gives us access to all past authorities, the lives anbd teachings from historical pure lovers of Krsna.

 

So why do we need diksa? To give love back to Krsna. The spiritual master is there to be a direct receptical of this love, and the key to the authority of a spiritual master is that he will never take this love upon Himself, rather immediately lay such love of His disciple at the feet of His Guru and His Sri Sri Radha Krsna.

 

Krsna has a personal relationship with us, but we need to reciprocate such a wonderful and causeless gift. The Guru gives us ability to practically apply this reciprocal love.

 

So, the answer is the difference between theory and practice. We may love a beauty queen, worship her picture, but real love is in meeting her and becoming her associate. A great way to really become close to her is by befriending her child, her heart will melt for you. So, in this line, we have a das das anudas situation. Krsna Loves us fully and unconditionally, but we love him back by becoming confidentially linked to those who have unconditional love for Him.

 

Did I lose you? Hare Krsna, Mo latah, yo brah, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

<B>Because the Diksa guru is the one that connects you to Krishna. This point needs to be understood properly. </B>

 

 

Is Guru Diksha necessary? Does Guru Diksha has many forms? One can learn even without Diksha. Then why is Guru Diksha so important?

 

What is the relation between Guru and a disciple like and how does it start?

 

What is the disciple’s duty towards the Guru?

 

Can the Guru be one’s deity?

 

If a husband and a wife both take Diksha from the same Guru then does that make them brother and sister?

 

When there are so strict tests to test a disciple then are there tests for a Guru too?

 

Can a disciple who has had Diksha from one Guru get Diksha from another Guru? Would this be a sin?

[theist]

On a more essential level that learning of transcendentalism from the guru IS diksha.

[Guest guest]

In diksa one receives the sacred Gayatri mantra. These are not some empty rituals, external to the bhakti process. If you think like that you are not worthy of the mantra and you might as well just read books untill you develop some maturity.

 

The absurdities spouted on this subject by various so called disciples of Prabhupada are astonishing.

[stonehearted]

mahak:

The Guru gives us ability to practically apply this reciprocal love.

So, the answer is the difference between theory and practice.

Nicely said. What do you think you can actually learn without diksha? Some verses? Memorize some lists? Fine--then that's what you'll get. But real transcendental knowledge is more than collecting information. The process for learning to love Krishna, for awakening our inherent love for Him, is described by Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in His instructions to Sanatana Goswami (Cc. Madhya-lila, Ch. 22). That's how Krishna reveals Himself to the sincere devotee. If you want something else, then some other process (or lack of process) may work.

[Guruvani]

I was reading somewhere in the Bhagavatam the other day where Srila Prabhupada used "initiated" and "inspired" interchangeably.

 

Spiritual diksha is more like being "inspired" by some Vaishnava.

Formal diksha is just that........... a formality.

 

The most important thing is to get inspiration from a Vaishnava to take up devotional service to Krishna.

The formal thing is mostly just a formal way of confirming this connection and this inspiration that one gets with a representative of Krishna.

 

This formal diksha being popularized as the latest fad by neophyte gurus has no special spiritual significance.

 

If one has some form of connection to a pure devotee who inspires him to take up devotional service, then in essence he has been initiated into Krishna consciousness.

 

Mahaprabhu and all his successors have authorized and empowered every living entity in the universe to chant Hare Krishna maha-mantra.

 

Under the circumstances, no formal diksha is mandatory if one takes complete shelter of the Holy Name of Krishna.

 

Diksha is already there if one get's inspired by a representative of Krishna to chant Hare Krishna.

[theist]

Inspiration : to breath or take in spirit. 'In spirit', one of my favorite words.

[theist]

 

On a more essential level that learning of transcendentalism from the guru IS diksha.

 

TRANSLATION CC 15.108

“One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksha in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sankshayam

tasmat diksheti sa prokta desikais tattva-kovidaih

 

“Diksha is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha.” [...]

[Guruvani]

At one time George Harrison was wanting initiation from Srila Prabhupada.

Some of the devotees approached Srila Prabhupada and told him that George Harrsion wanted to be initiated.

Srila Prabhupada replied to them that George Harrison didn't need formal diksha and that if he could just use his fame and influence to propagate the Holy Name of Krishna that this would be the best service for George.

[muralidhar_das]

Getting diksa initiation is non-essential

 

Getting Hari-nama from a genuine Vaishnava is essential.

[Guruvani]

 

Getting diksa initiation is non-essential

 

Getting Hari-nama from a genuine Vaishnava is essential.

 

But, I am confused how the diksha mantras on the tape of Srila prabhupada just automatically lost all potency and power upon his passing on.

 

Srila Prabhupada acknowledged in his presence that mantras on tape can be just as effective and potent as mantras spoken directly.

 

So, I don't accept the conclusions that somehow the Maha-mantra on tapes of Srila Prabhupada or Sridhar Maharaja have somehow become invalid simply because they left their mortal bodies.

 

I think that getting Maha-mantra from the tape of Srila Prabhupada is potent at all times and in all situations.

 

I am sure you don't agree with that.

[Shakti-Fan]

 

But, I am confused how the diksha mantras on the tape of Srila prabhupada just automatically lost all potency and power upon his passing on.

 

Srila Prabhupada acknowledged in his presence that mantras on tape can be just as effective and potent as mantras spoken directly.

 

So, I don't accept the conclusions that somehow the Maha-mantra on tapes of Srila Prabhupada or Sridhar Maharaja have somehow become invalid simply because they left their mortal bodies.

 

I think that getting Maha-mantra from the tape of Srila Prabhupada is potent at all times and in all situations.

 

I am sure you don't agree with that.

 

I was once at an initiation ceremony with Srila Prabhupada. I was only in the Movement for 3 months so I wasn't recommended for first initiation. All the devotees in the temple who were there for more than 6 months got Hari nama. So when I was in the temple room I was about 20 ft. from Prabhupada so I heard him chanting on their beads. So I heard the maha mantra directly from Prabhuapada's mouth. 3 months later I was given hari nama by mail. When was I first initiated? Obviously 3 months later by mail! Why, because of his intention or desire. Similarly if someone who didn't have second initiation from Srila Prabhupada, went into the TP's office and popped in the tape of Prabhupada chanting gayatri (say in 1975) that wouldn't mean they were second initiated unless Prabhupada desired it to be so. The same situation exists in current time.

[muralidhar_das]

Srila Govinda Maharaj said that when a genuine Guru accepts a person as his disciple, with or without any mantra, that is the when the Guru-disciple relationship begins. Everything else is ritual.

[Guruvani]

 

if someone who didn't have second initiation from Srila Prabhupada, went into the TP's office and popped in the tape of Prabhupada chanting gayatri (say in 1975) that wouldn't mean they were second initiated unless Prabhupada desired it to be so. The same situation exists in current time.

 

But, maybe you like to forget this, but Srila Prabhupada empowered the GBC and then later the ritviks to give approval on his behalf.

 

So, Srila Prabhupada transferred authority that the approval of the GBC or the approval of the ritvik was as good as his personal approval.

 

Srila Prabhupada tooks his hands out of the personally approving process long before he stopped accepting disciples on the recommendation and approval of the GBC or the ritviks.

 

So, if the acharya empowers, then even his personal approval is not required. He can empower someone to accept disciples on his behalf.

 

So, maybe true that random hearing of the tape is not authorized.

But, Srila Prabhupada transferred authority and power to the GBC and the ritviks and that is historical fact.

 

Srila Prabhupada set up a system where the GBC would recommend or approve and then the tape would be played at the formal initiation.

 

Even his will is not always required.

If his empowered representatives approve then was acknowledged by Srila Prabhupada as his disciple.

[Guest guest]

Well, I think there are some subtle inner workings going on that I certainly can't see. The Guru is planting and/or nurturing the bhakti lata bija in the heart of the devotee at the time of initiation.

 

 

I have seen my Guru perform initiations a few times. One time, he was giving initiation to a woman, and at the end he said, I gave you initiation. And he pointed to the sky, and then into to her heart. Making a hand gesture, as if, during the time of initiation he was directly implanting something into her heart. So I think, there is indeed something subtle that the Guru is actually doing. Unfortunately, it's hard to explain, but although I don't disregard that the voice and chanting on-tape of the Spiritual Master does indeed have potency, I think its quite different than the process the Spiritual Master is actually doing when he himself gives initiation. I have seen and felt this with my own eyes.

[Guruvani]

 

Well, I think there are some subtle inner workings going on that I certainly can't see. The Guru is planting and/or nurturing the bhakti lata bija in the heart of the devotee at the time of initiation.

 

 

I have seen my Guru perform initiations a few times. One time, he was giving initiation to a woman, and at the end he said, I gave you initiation. And he pointed to the sky, and then into to her heart. Making a hand gesture, as if, during the time of initiation he was directly implanting something into her heart. So I think, there is indeed something subtle that the Guru is actually doing. Unfortunately, it's hard to explain, but although I don't disregard that the voice and chanting on-tape of the Spiritual Master does indeed have potency, I think its quite different than the process the Spiritual Master is actually doing when he himself gives initiation. I have seen and felt this with my own eyes.

 

 

But, maybe you like to forget this, but Srila Prabhupada empowered the GBC and then later the ritviks to give approval on his behalf.

 

So, Srila Prabhupada transferred authority that the approval of the GBC or the approval of the ritvik was as good as his personal approval.

 

Srila Prabhupada tooks his hands out of the personally approving process long before he stopped accepting disciples on the recommendation and approval of the GBC or the ritviks.

 

So, if the acharya empowers, then even his personal approval is not required. He can empower someone to accept disciples on his behalf.

 

So, maybe true that random hearing of the tape is not authorized.

But, Srila Prabhupada transferred authority and power to the GBC and the ritviks and that is historical fact.

 

Srila Prabhupada set up a system where the GBC would recommend or approve and then the tape would be played at the formal initiation.

 

Even his will is not always required.

If his empowered representatives approve then was acknowledged by Srila Prabhupada as his disciple.

[stonehearted]

 

Srila Govinda Maharaj said that when a genuine Guru accepts a person as his disciple, with or without any mantra, that is the when the Guru-disciple relationship begins. Everything else is ritual.

What Muralidhar said! It's a personal relationship. And I wouldn't be shy about calling that diksha, mantra or no, fire or no, because that's what Lord Chaitanya calls it. It's not the ritual that makes the relationship; it's the mutual commitment. The disciple commits to a life of submissive inquiry and service (as Chanakya says, just as we get water from a well by digging, we get knowledge from the guru by service), and the guru to sharing the transcendental knowledge that places the disciple at Krishna's lotus feet.

[krsna]

 

The disciple commits to a life of submissive inquiry and service (as Chanakya says, just as we get water from a well by digging, we get knowledge from the guru by service), and the guru to sharing the transcendental knowledge that places the disciple at Krishna's lotus feet.

 

Guru and KRSNA work in tandem to drag the fallen soul BTG!

[stonehearted]

We know that we get guru by Krishna's grace, and we get Krishna by the guru's grace. The Lord arranged for Dhruva to meet Narada, and Narada arranged for Dhruva to meet the Lord. What made it all happen was Dhruva's willingness to follow Narada's instructions.

[Laulyam]

TEXT 108

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

SYNONYMS

diksa--initiation; purascarya--activities before initiation; vidhi--regulative principles; apeksa--reliance on; na--not; kare--does; jihva--the tongue; sparse--by touching; a-candala--even to the lowest of men, the candala; sabare--everyone; uddhare--delivers.

TRANSLATION

"One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat

kuryat papasya sanksayam

tasmad dikseti sa prokta

desikais tattva-kovidaih

"Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa." The regulative principles of diksa are explained in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.3,4) and in Bhakti-sandarbha (283). As stated:

dvijanam anupetanam svakarmadhyayanadisu

yathadhikaro nastiha syac copanayanad anu

tathatradiksitanam tu mantra-devarcanadisu

nadhikaro 'sty atah kuryad atmanam siva-samstutam

"Even though born in a brahmana family, one cannot engage in Vedic rituals without being initiated and having a sacred thread. Although born in a brahmana family, one becomes a brahmana after initiation and the sacred thread ceremony. Unless one is initiated as a brahmana, he cannot worship the holy name properly.":smash:

According to the Vaisnava regulative principles, one must be initiated as a brahmana. The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.6) quotes the following injunction from the Visnu-yamala:

adiksitasya vamoru

krtam sarvam nirarthakam

pasu-yonim avapnoti

diksa-virahito janah

"Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species.":eek3:

Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.10) further quotes:

ato gurum pranamyaivam

sarva-svam vinivedya ca

grhniyad vaisnavam mantram

diksa-purvam vidhanatah

"It is the duty of every human being to surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Giving him everything-body, mind and intelligence-one must take a Vaisnava initiation from him."

The Bhakti-sandarbha (298) gives the following quotation from the Tattva-sagara:

yatha kancanatam yati

kasyam rasa-vidhanatah

tatha diksa-vidhanena

dvijatvam jayate nrnam

"By chemical manipulation, bell metal is turned into gold when touched by mercury; similarly, when a person is properly initiated, he can acquire the qualities of a brahmana."

The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (17.11,12) in discussing the purascarya process, quotes the following verses from Agastya-samhita:

puja traikaliki nityam

japas tarpanam eva ca

homo brahmana-bhuktis ca

purascaranam ucyate

guror labdhasya mantrasya

prasadena yatha-vidhi

pancangopasana-siddhyai

puras caitad vidhiyate

"In the morning, afternoon and evening, one should worship the Deity, chant the Hare Krsna mantra, offer oblations, perform a fire sacrifice, and feed the brahmanas. These five activities constitute purascarya. To attain full success when taking initiation from the spiritual master, one should first perform these purascarya processes."

The word purah means "before" and carya means "activities." Due to the necessity of these activities, we do not immediately initiate disciples in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. For six months, a candidate for initiation must first attend arati and classes in the sastras, practice the regulative principles and associate with other devotees. When one is actually advanced in the purascarya-vidhi, he is recommended by the local temple president for initiation. It is not that anyone can be suddenly initiated without meeting the requirements. When one is further advanced by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra sixteen rounds daily, following the regulative principles and attending classes, he receives the sacred thread (brahminical recognition) after the second six months.

In the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (17.4,5,7) it is stated:

vina yena na siddhah syan

mantro varsa-satair api

krtena yena labhate

sadhako vanchitam phalam

purascarana-sampanno

mantro hi phala-dhayakah

atah puraskriyam kuryat

mantravit siddhi-kanksaya

puraskriya hi mantranam

pradhanam viryam ucyate

virya-hino yatha dehi

sarva-karmasu na ksamah

purascarana-hino hi

tatha mantrah prakirtitah

"Without performing the purascarya activities, one cannot become perfect even by chanting this mantra for hundreds of years. However, one who has undergone the purascarya-vidhi process can attain success very easily. If one wishes to perfect his initiation, he must first undergo the purascarya activities. The purascarya process is the life-force by which one is successful in chanting the mantra. Without the life-force, one cannot do anything; similarly, without the life force of purascarya-vidhi, no mantra can be perfected."

In his Bhakti-sandarbha (283), Srila Jiva Gosvami states:

yadyapi sri-bhagavata-mate pancaratradi-vat arcana-margasya avasyakatvam nasti, tad vinapi saranapattyadinam ekatarenapi purusartha-siddher abhihitatvat, tathapi sri-naradadi-vartmanusaradbhih sri-bhagavata saha sambandha-visesam diksa-vidhanena sri-guru-carana-sampaditam cikirsadbhih krtayam diksayam arcanam avasyam kriyetaiva.

Of similar importance is diksa, which is explained as follows in Bhakti-sandarbha (284):

yadyapi svarupato nasti, tathapi prayah svabhavato dehadi-sambandhena kardaya-silanam viksipta-cittanam jananam tat-tat-sankoci-karanaya srimad-rsi-prabhrtibhir atrarcana-marge kvacit kvacit kacit kacin maryada sthapitasti.

Similarly in the Ramarcana-candrika it is stated:

vinaiva diksam viprendra

purascaryam vinaiva hi

vinaiva nyasa-vidhina

japa-matrena siddhida

In other words, the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in pancaratra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Krsna consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished. The more one is freed from material identification, the more one can realize that the spirit soul is qualitatively as good as the Supreme Soul. At such a time, when one is situated on the absolute platform, he can understand that the holy name of the Lord and the Lord Himself are identical. At that stage of realization, the holy name of the Lord, the Hare Krsna mantra, cannot be identified with any material sound. If one accepts the Hare Krsna maha-mantra as a material vibration, he falls down. One should worship and chant the holy name of the Lord by accepting it as the Lord Himself. One should therefore be initiated properly according to revealed scriptures under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Although chanting the holy name is good for both the conditioned and liberated soul, it is especially beneficial to the conditioned soul because by chanting it one is liberated. When a person who chants the holy name is liberated, he attains the ultimate perfection by returning home, back to Godhead. In the words of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi 7.73):

krsna-mantra haite habe samsara-mocana

krsna-nama haite pabe krsnera carana

"Simply by chanting the holy name of Krsna one can obtain freedom from material existence. Indeed, simply by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra one will be able to see the lotus feet of the Lord."

The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. Although initiation may depend on purascarya or purascarana, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on purascarya-vidhi, or the regulative principles. If one chants the holy name once without committing an offense, he attains all success:deal: . During the chanting of the holy name, the tongue must work. Simply by chanting the holy name, one is immediately delivered. The tongue is sevonmukha-jihva-it is controlled by service. One whose tongue is engaged in tasting material things and also talking about them cannot use the tongue for absolute realization.

atah sri-krsna-namadi

na bhaved grahyam indriyaih

sevonmukhe hi jihvadau

svayam eva sphuraty adah

According to Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 17.134):

ataeva krsnera 'nama', 'deha', 'vilasa'

prakrtendriya-grahya nahe, haya sva-prakasa

"With these material senses, one cannot understand the transcendental holy name of the Lord or His form, activities and pastimes. However, when one actually engages in devotional service, utilizing the tongue, the Lord is revealed."

[Guruvani]

I appreciate very much the necessity for purascharya-vidhi.

The above quote is very important for one who actually wants to make tangible advancement in Krishna consciousness.

 

Personally, I went through the purascharya-vidhi process and was initiated as a brahmana as Srila Prabhupada wrote "under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master".

I think it is noteworthy here that Srila Prabhupada described it as getting initiated "under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master" which certainly describes the initiation process in ISKCON as not necessarily by the spiritual master himself but "under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master" which certainly describes his idea for how ISKCON functioned.

 

No doubt that without sadhana and purascharya-vidhi it is very difficult to actually get noticable results from chanting japa and performing kirtan.

 

But, then when you become siddha like me, you don't need all that.

 

All you conditioned souls out there need to pay your dues to sadhana and purashcarya-vidhi if you want to become liberated like me.

[Guest guest]

The answer to the original question- "why is Guru Diksha so important???" is-

 

Because he gives you connection to the parampara and therefore to Krishna. Without that initiation process, we're just lost souls.

[theist]

 

TRANSLATION CC 15.108

“One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksha in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sankshayam

tasmat diksheti sa prokta desikais tattva-kovidaih

 

“Diksha is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksha.” [...]

 

The question of this thread,"One can learn without diksa. Then why is guru diksa so important???," misses the point in light of Jiva Gosvami's statement above.

Jiva Gosvami shows the way to the real connection with the Parampara, the awakening of transcendental knowledge. There is only one source for transcendental knowledge and that is the Lord Himself which includes His bonefide representative.

 

There is no avoiding diksa if one accepts JIva Gosvami's definition because awakening transcendental knowledge is itself the goal.

 

Of course if one defines diksa as some formality that is another thing.