One can learn even without Diksha. Then why is Guru Diksha so important???

[muralidhar_das]

Kshamabuddhi if you want to think what you think then go right ahead. I am not the thought police.

 

Theist I don't think anyone has to be pure to get diksa. Getting diksa is the means by which we become a pure devotee, so by definition a person will get diksa and then get pure devotion. After diksa comes bhajana-kriya, chanting and service. All this is described in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu, or Nectar of Devotion if you prefer. You know that already. I'm not saying anything new.

 

Hari bol

[theist]

 

Kshamabuddhi if you want to think what you think then go right ahead. I am not the thought police.

 

Theist I don't think anyone has to be pure to get diksa. Getting diksa is the means by which we become a pure devotee, so by definition a person will get diksa and then get pure devotion. After diksa comes bhajana-kriya, chanting and service. All this is described in Bhaktirasamrtasindhu, or Nectar of Devotion if you prefer. You know that already. I'm not saying anything new.

 

Hari bol

 

You just described the process of diksa.

 

Ok we just run on different definitions of diksa. The definition I prefer is given by Jiva Gosvami and is essential and indespensible. Diksa as you define it has a rather poor record from what I have seen. So wherein lies the spiritual potency?

[Laulyam]

TEXT 76

harer nama harer nama

harer namaiva kevalam

kalau nasty eva nasty eva

nasty eva gatir anyatha

 

SYNONYMS

 

hareh nama--the holy name of the Lord; hareh nama--the holy name of the Lord; hareh nama--the holy name of the Lord; eva--certainly; kevalam--only; kalau--in this Age of Kali; na asti--there is none; eva--certainly; na asti--there is none; eva--certainly; na asti--there is none; eva--certainly; gatih--progress; anyatha--otherwise.

 

TRANSLATION

 

" 'For spiritual progress in this Age of Kali, there is no alternative, there is no alternative, there is no alternative to the holy name, the holy name, the holy name of the Lord.'

 

PURPORT

 

For progress in spiritual life, the sastras recommend meditation in Satya-yuga, sacrifice for the satisfaction of Lord Visnu in Treta-yuga and gorgeous worship of the Lord in the temple in Dvapara-yuga, but in the Age of Kali one can achieve spiritual progress only by chanting the holy name of the Lord. This is confirmed in various scriptures. In Srimad-Bhagavatam there are many references to this fact. In the Twelfth Canto (12.3.51) it is said, kirtanad eva krsnasya mukta-sangah param vrajet: In the Age of Kali there are many faults, for people are subjected to many miserable conditions, yet in this age there is one great benediction--simply by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra one can be freed from all material contamination and thus be elevated to the spiritual world. The Narada-pancaratra also praises the Hare Krsna maha-mantra as follows:

 

trayo vedah sad-angani

chandamsi vividhah surah

sarvam astaksarantahstham

yac canyad api van-mayam

sarva-vedanta-sararthah

samsararnava-taranah

 

"The essence of all Vedic knowledge--comprehending the three kinds of Vedic activity [karma-kanda, jnana-kanda and upasana-kanda], the chandas, or Vedic hymns, and the processes for satisfying the demigods--is included in the eight syllables Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna. This is the reality of all Vedanta. The chanting of the holy name is the only means to cross the ocean of nescience." Similarly, the Kali-santarana Upanisad states, "Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare. Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare--these sixteen names composed of thirty-two syllables are the only means to counteract the evil effects of Kali-yuga. In all the Vedas it is seen that to cross the ocean of nescience there is no alternative to the chanting of the holy name." Similarly, Sri Madhvacarya, while commenting upon the Mundaka Upanisad, has said:

 

dvapariyair janair visnuh

pancaratrais tu kevalaih

kalau tu nama-matrena

pujyate bhagavan harih

 

"In the Dvapara-yuga one could satisfy Krsna or Visnu only by worshiping Him gorgeously according to the pancaratriki system, but in the Age of Kali one can satisfy and worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead Hari simply by chanting the holy name." In his Bhakti-sandarbha (verse 284), Srila Jiva Gosvami strongly emphasizes the chanting of the holy name of the Lord as follows:

 

nanu bhagavan-namatmaka eva mantrah, tatra visesena namah-sabdady-alankrtah sri-bhagavata srimad-rsibhis cahita-sakti-visesah, sri-bhagavata samam atma-sambandha-visesa-pratipadakas ca tatra kevalani sri-bhagavan-namany api nirapeksany eva parama-purusartha-phala-paryanta-dana-samarthani tato mantresu namato 'py adhika-samarthye labdhe katham diksady-apeksa. ucyate--yady api svarupato nasti, tathapi prayah svabhavato dehadi-sambandhena kadarya-silanam viksipta-cittanam jananam tat-sankoci-karanaya srimad-rsi-prabhrtibhir atrarcana-marge kvacit kvacit kacit kacin maryada sthapitasti.

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami states that the substance of all the Vedic mantras is the chanting of the holy name of the Lord. Every mantra begins with the prefix nama om and eventually addresses by name the Supreme Personality of Godhead. By the supreme will of the Lord there is a specific potency in each and every mantra chanted by great sages like Narada Muni and other rsis. Chanting the holy name of the Lord immediately renovates the transcendental relationship of the living being with the Supreme Lord.

To chant the holy name of the Lord, one need not depend upon other paraphernalia, for one can immediately get all the desired results of connecting or linking with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It may therefore be questioned why there is a necessity for initiation or further spiritual activities in devotional service for one who engages in the chanting of the holy name of the Lord. The answer is that although it is correct that one who fully engages in chanting the holy name need not depend upon the process of initiation, generally a devotee is addicted to many abominable material habits due to material contamination from his previous life. In order to get quick relief from all these contaminations, it is required that one engage in the worship of the Lord in the temple. The worship of the Deity in the temple is essential to reduce one's restlessness due to the contaminations of conditioned life. Thus Narada, in his pancaratriki-vidhi, and other great sages have sometimes stressed that since every conditioned soul has a bodily concept of life aimed at sense enjoyment, to restrict this sense enjoyment the rules and regulations for worshiping the Deity in the temple are essential. Srila Rupa Gosvami has described that the holy name of the Lord can be chanted by liberated souls, but almost all the souls we have to initiate are conditioned. It is advised that one chant the holy name of the Lord without offenses and according to the regulative principles, yet due to their past bad habits they violate these rules and regulations. Thus the regulative principles for worship of the Deity are also simultaneously essential.

[Guruvani]

I am not so sure that deity worship has performed any miracles in ridding devotees of bad habits.

I think there is also plenty of evidence to the contrary.

 

So, in theory, receiving formal diksha might be some cure-all for the diseased minds of people, but in reality neither formal initiation or deity worship have performed any miracles.

 

Deity worship does teach one the personal conception of the Lord.

It might be good against impersonal tendencies, but it appears to have it's limitations as well.

[Laulyam]

Devidasa: I have studied many sastras since my childhood, but today, by your grace, I have understood their purpose in an entirely new light.

Lahiri: It is written in Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.8.10):

 

 

 

anubhyas ca mahadbhyas ca sastrebhyah kusalo narah

 

 

 

sarvatah saram adadyat puspebhya iva satpadah

 

An intelligent person will take the essence of all the sastras,

whether they are great or small, just as a bumblebee gathers

honey from many different types of flowers.

My dear son, I used to call you an atheist. Now I don’t criticize anyone, because faith depends on adhikara. There is no question of criticism in this regard. Everyone is working according to their own adhikara, and they will advance gradually when the time is appropriate. You are a scholar of the sastras dealing with logic and fruitive action, and since your statements are in accordance with your adhikara, there is no fault in them.

[Beggar]

Or a doubting Bhakta Thomas could say:

I am not so sure that chanting Hare Krsna has performed any miracles in ridding devotees of bad habits.

I think there is also plenty of evidence to the contrary.

 

 

or

 

I am not so sure that associating with devotees has performed any miracles in ridding devotees of bad habits.

I think there is also plenty of evidence to the contrary.

 

or

 

 

 

 

I am not so sure that hearing Srimad Bhagavatam has performed any miracles in ridding devotees of bad habits.

 

I think there is also plenty of evidence to the contrary.

 

or

 

 

 

 

I am not so sure that the Moon god Chandra has performed any miracles in creating beautiful, cooling and calming effects. Just look at all the effects which are like pockmarks and all the lunatics on Audarya Fellowships!

 

I think there is also plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Guruvani, as W.C. Fields has said, "My boy you are an exception to the rule!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guruvani]

 

Or a doubting Bhakta Thomas could say:

I am not so sure that chanting Hare Krsna has performed any miracles in ridding devotees of bad habits.

I think there is also plenty of evidence to the contrary.

 

 

or

 

I am not so sure that associating with devotees has performed any miracles in ridding devotees of bad habits.

I think there is also plenty of evidence to the contrary.

 

or

 

 

 

I am not so sure that hearing Srimad Bhagavatam has performed any miracles in ridding devotees of bad habits.

 

I think there is also plenty of evidence to the contrary.

 

or

 

 

 

I am not so sure that the Moon god Chandra has performed any miracles in creating beautiful, cooling and calming effects. Just look at all the effects which are like pockmarks and all the lunatics on Audarya Fellowships!

 

I think there is also plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Guruvani, as W.C. Fields has said, "My boy you are an exception to the rule!"

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

but, the Yuga Dharma is Nama Sankirtan.

That nobody can argue.

 

My point was that if one does not get any effect from chanting the Holy Name of the Lord, I don't see how worshiping the deity is really going to make a big difference.

 

If the most powerful and effective process for this age does not produce any result in an individual, then how is one of the lesser processes going to really solve the problem?

 

Diety worship was the Yuga Dharma in the previous age.

Nama Sankirtan is the Yuga Dharma for this age.

 

If Name Sankirtan cannot elevate a person, then how can deity worship really make a difference?

 

Really, sadhu sanga is more important than deity worship.

It is association with sadhus that is more important than deity worship.

 

 

[Guest guest]

Initiation means the beginning. Diksa means a mutual agreement. When disciple takes up the process of the teacher and the teacher takes on the student, initiation has occurred.

 

BTW What does learning have to do with anything. Not to stir up the endless ennui of the fall from the spiritual sky due to forgetfulness, but Srila Prabhupada had mentioned to me that he was not here to teach anyone. TEACH means something introduced previously unknown. Srila Prabhupada rekindles, removes the smoke by getting the fire blazing from dying embers, reminds us of what we have forgotten. Realization of the truth is not a learning process.

 

Rememberance and forgetfullness are concepts that are fully discussed throughout Srila Prabhupadas literature. Of course they are TEACHINGS, but one doesnt learn the truth. Such LEARNING is dry. There are many who have learned the truth, but if such doesnt rekindle actual devotional practice in spontenaity, what good is all such knowledge. No one knows the truth better than duryodhana, no one is more proficient in the veda than Ravana, Hiranyakasipu had Lord BVrahma as his slave due to his learning the intricacies of the veda. Learning is actually a very dangerous thing. The CIA and NSA can certainly use such learning to control many (maybe they have used the GBC for this purpose, which, BTW, I have actually written much on such a scenario).

 

So, sure, there is learning without diksa, but is there anything we actually need without establishing intimate and reciprocal relationship with a bonafide spiritual master? Who, BTW, is a manifestation of Sri Sesa Balarama? Nah. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzharibol, mahaksadasa

[theist]

Learning and assimilating transcendental knowledge is diksa according to Jiva Goswami and entering in to the realm of transcendental knowledge is establishing a elationship with Guru and Krsna. Transcendental knowledge is not impersonal.

 

The establishment of the need to perform a ritual before one can begin tasting the essence of chanting Hare Krsna, associating with Krsna's representative, hearing Srimad Bhagavatam etc. simply makes no sense.

 

The relationship with the guru is established by following his instructions to chant Hare Krsna associate with His devotees and hear Srimad Bhagavatam.

 

Why this insistance that following his instructions is not enough?

[Guruvani]

 

Initiation means the beginning. Diksa means a mutual agreement.

Diksha has never been described in either of those terms by the acharyas or Mahaprabhu. That is a concocted notion.

 

Diksha in the true sense as it was used by Mahaprabhu is rebirth into a spiritual body.

 

Let me demonstrate.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Antya 4.192

 

dīkṣā-kāle bhakta kare ātma-samarpaṇa

sei-kāle kṛṣṇa tāre kare ātma-sama

 

SYNONYMS

dīkṣā-kāle — at the time of initiation; bhakta — the devotee; kare — does; ātma — of himself; samarpaṇa — full dedication; sei-kāle — at that time; kṛṣṇa — Lord Kṛṣṇa; tāre — him; kare — makes; ātma-sama — as spiritual as Himself.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Kṛṣṇa accepts him to be as good as Himself.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Antya 4.193

 

sei deha kare tāra cid-ānanda-maya

aprākṛta-dehe tāńra caraṇa bhajaya

 

SYNONYMS

sei deha — that body; kare — makes; tāra — his; cit-ānanda-maya — full of transcendental bliss; aprākṛta-dehe — in that transcendental body; tāńra — His; caraṇa — feet; bhajaya — worships.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"When the devotee's body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.

 

 

Śrī Caitanya Caritāmṛta Antya 4.194

 

martyo yadā tyakta-samasta-karmā

niveditātmā vicikīrṣito me

tadāmṛtatvaḿ pratipadyamāno

mayātma-bhūyāya ca kalpate vai

 

SYNONYMS

martyaḥ — the living entity subjected to birth and death; yadā — as soon as; tyakta — giving up; samasta — all; karmāḥ — fruitive activities; nivedita-ātmā — a fully surrendered soul; vicikīrṣitaḥ — desired to act; me — by Me; tadā — at that time; amṛtatvam — immortality; pratipadyamānaḥ — attaining; mayā — with Me; ātma-bhūyāya — for becoming of a similar nature; ca — also; kalpate — is eligible; vai — certainly.

 

 

TRANSLATION

"'The living entity who is subjected to birth and death attains immortality when he gives up all material activities, dedicates his life to the execution of My order, and acts according to My directions. In this way he becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss derived from exchanging loving mellows with Me.'

 

 

PURPORT

This is a quotation from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam (11.29.34). At the time of initiation, a devotee gives up all his material conceptions. Therefore, being in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, he is situated on the transcendental platform. Thus having attained knowledge and the spiritual platform, he always engages in the service of the spiritual body of Kṛṣṇa. When one is freed from material connections in this way, his body immediately becomes spiritual, and Kṛṣṇa accepts his service. However, Kṛṣṇa does not accept anything from a person with a material conception of life. When a devotee no longer has any desire for material sense gratification, in his spiritual identity he engages in the service of the Lord, for his dormant spiritual consciousness awakens. This awakening of spiritual consciousness makes his body spiritual, and thus he becomes fit to render service to the Lord. Karmīs may consider the body of a devotee material, but factually it is not, for a devotee has no conception of material enjoyment. If one thinks that the body of a pure devotee is material, he is an offender, for that is a vaiṣṇava-aparādha. In this connection one should consult Śrīla Sanātana Gosvāmī's Bṛhad-bhāgavatāmṛta (1.3.45 and 2.3.139).

 

So, diksha has many different meanings.

 

Ultimately, real spiritual diksa happens when one completly gives himself up to the service of the spiritual master and get an aprakrita body with which to perform devotional service to the Lord.

 

Diksha is supposed to be a spiritual birth.

 

The diksha we have today of going to some guru, going through some formal ceremony and getting a Hare Krishna name is nice, but it is not true diksha unless one is completly reborn into full-fledged sacrifice and surrender to devotional service.

 

We have several forms of diksha going around nowadays that really don't have anything to do with Mahaprabhu's idea that diksha is a spiritual birth and the giving up of all material conceptions and activities.

 

Diksha is for the dwija - the born again Krishnas.

It's not a formal ceremony that then turns the devotee back out into the material world to perfom some watered-down karma-yoga or karma-misra-bhakti.

 

Yee must be born again in the spirit!!!

[Guest guest]

 

I think I agree with you.

But, I don't see it as fallacious.

 

Not having formal diksha is not tantamount with not being surrendered to the acharya and Krishna.

I believe that's what I said.

The logic that was being applied was -

 

premise IF ~ surrendered then ~diska.

conclusion IF ~fomal diska then ~surrendered

That reasoning is the fallacy of 'asserting the consequent'.

[Guest guest]

 

So, sure, there is learning without diksa, but is there anything we actually need without establishing intimate and reciprocal relationship with a bonafide spiritual master?

<B>Formal</b> diska is intimate? How paradoxical.

[krsna]

 

Diksha has never been described in either of those terms by the acharyas or Mahaprabhu. That is a concocted notion.

 

Diksha in the true sense as it was used by Mahaprabhu is rebirth into a spiritual body.

 

Let me demonstrate.

 

 

 

 

So, diksha has many different meanings.

 

Ultimately, real spiritual diksa happens when one completly gives himself up to the service of the spiritual master and get an aprakrita body with which to perform devotional service to the Lord.

 

Diksha is supposed to be a spiritual birth.

 

The diksha we have today of going to some guru, going through some formal ceremony and getting a Hare Krishna name is nice, but it is not true diksha unless one is completly reborn into full-fledged sacrifice and surrender to devotional service.

 

We have several forms of diksha going around nowadays that really don't have anything to do with Mahaprabhu's idea that diksha is a spiritual birth and the giving up of all material conceptions and activities.

 

Diksha is for the dwija - the born again Krishnas.

It's not a formal ceremony that then turns the devotee back out into the material world to perfom some watered-down karma-yoga or karma-misra-bhakti.

 

Yee must be born again in the spirit!!!

 

 

"Spiritualize Your Subtle Body" Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.8

September 6, 1972, New Vrndavana

 

dharmah svanusthitah pumsam

visvaksena-kathasu yah

notpadayed yadi ratim

srama eva hi kevalam

[sB 1.2.8]

 

 

 

Just like every night we die. The gross body remains inactive on the bed, and the subtle body takes me away. I dream, I go in the dreamland. I have gone to some friend, I am talking with somebody, I am working in a different way. That is our daily experience. This means that we have got two kinds of body. One body is this gross body, and the other body is subtle body, made of mind, intelligence, and ego. So foolish person, they do not see the subtle body, but the subtle body is there. Everyone will accept. I am working with my mind, intelligence and ego. Everyone knows. So although we cannot see the subtle body, it is there. So death means this gross body, this overcoat is left, and I am carried away by the subtle body, and I enter into another overcoat, or gross body. So practically this is called death. Because we have no vision of the subtle body, how the soul is being transferred or transmigrating from one gross body to another gross body, keeping the subtle body intact. And the subtle body is given up when one is liberated. And at that time he goes, when he is liberated, freed from this subtle body also, at that time he is promoted to the spiritual kingdom in spiritual body. Therefore while living in this gross body, we have to educate our subtle body in such a way that it becomes spiritualized completely.

 

The subtle body is mind, intelligence and ego. So if we think of Krsna in the mind, always, and if we work intelligently for Krsna, that is mind and intelligence. And if we change our false ego, ego means, "I am." So I am at the present moment thinking, "I am American,I am Indian,I am white,I am black," like that. "I am human being,I am animal,I am cat or dog," so many things, "I am." This "I am" has to be changed. I am eternal servant of Krsna. In this way, if you educate or transfer the activities of the subtle body, mind, intelligence, and ego, then, at the time of death, you give up this subtle body, material subtle body, mind, intelligence, and ego, and by your spiritual body you go back to home, back to Godhead. This is called Krsna consciousness movement. Gross body, automatically we give up. Now, we should practice to give up the subtle body. To give up this subtle body, one has to develop love for God, prema. And the process is, how to give up the subtle body.

 

Adau sraddha, first of all sraddha. Sraddha means a faith or some respect. Actually it means respect. Just like you have come here out of faith and respect. So here they're talking about God. There is temple of God, let us go there. This is faith and respect. Adau sraddha. This is the beginning. Now, after coming here, when you hear about God, because we, our only business is, we don't talk here politics or sociology or anything. That comes automatically as subordinate things, but our business is to talk about God. So those who talks about God, they are called saintly person. There are two kinds of men within this world. Materialistic person and transcendentalist, or man interested in spiritualism. So those who are interested in spiritual life, they talk of self-realization. And those who are materialistic person, they also talk. They talk about this body, how to keep this body nicely. There are politics, sociology, welfare activities, so many things, all concerning to the body. So there are many talks, just like in the newspaper. In your country especially, bunch of newspaper. So many talks, advertisement, fashion, this news, that news, full up. So the materialistic person, they read the newspaper, but we read Srimad-Bhagavatam. That is the difference. We are also reading. They are also reading. So nrnam santi sahasrasah, srotavyadini rajendra nrnam santi sahasrasah [sB 2.1.2]. Sukadeva Gosvami said to Pariksit Maharaja, "My dear king, there are many hundreds and thousands of topics for the materialistic person." Sahasrasah. Sahasrasah means thousands, and that is a fact. So many novels, so many fiction, so many so-called philosophy, newspaper, cinema paper, this paper, that paper, so many. Sahasrasah.

 

 

srotavyadini rajendra

nrnam santi sahasrasah

apasyatam atma-tattvam

grhesu grha-medhinam

[sB 2.1.2]

 

Apasyatam atma-tattvam. Because they do not know, they have no information of the soul, they are talking about this body. Or sometimes about this mind. Philosophical speculation, concoction. One philosophy is theorizing something, another philosopher is theorizing something. Lots of literature. All nonsense, because it is mental speculation. I speculate in one way, you speculate in another way. You refute me, I refute you. So therefore, these talks of the body and talks of the mind, there are varieties. Nrnam santi sahasrasah apasyatam atma-tattvam [sB 2.1.2]. Why they are engaged in so many talks? Because they do not know, apasyatam. They have no vision of the soul, atma-tattva. Grhesu grha-medhinam. Grhamedhi, those interested simply to maintain this body, they are called grhamedhi.

 

Generally, atheist class, they have no interest in God. The atheist class long, long ago, thousands of years ago, there was atheist also. Because there are two classes of men always within this world, atheist and theist, asura and deva, devata. So not that atheist class men have developed at the present moment. It may be the number has increased, but atheist class of men were long, long ago also. There was Carvaka Muni, he was also called muni. Muni means mental speculator, or thoughtful. So this Carvaka Muni, he also presented his philosophy, atheism, that rnam krtva ghrtam yavaj jivet sukham jivet. So long you live, you live very joyfully by enjoying your senses. This is atheistic principle. And in India the sense enjoyment principle is based on ghee, clarified butter, because if they get butter, they prepare so many nice preparations. You have also learned how to do it. (laughter) In India there are varieties. If you sometimes go to India... In Delhi there are shops, many varieties of foodstuffs, all from grains and fruits, that's all. Grain, fruits, ghee, sugar, and salt. Varieties, hundreds. So eating, sleeping, the basic principle is eating, sleeping, mating. So Carvaka Muni says that "Live very joyfully, and eat very nicely, enjoy your senses, finish your life. That is atheism. Apasyatam atma-tattvam [sB 2.1.2]. They have no vision that there is soul.

 

The soul is migrating, transmigrating. There are 8,400,000 species of bodies; and you are transmigrating from one to another, another, another, in this way. They don't care for it. Even if you are Hindu... [break] ...he is informed, that if you are acting like this you are going to be a tree next life, "Oh, it doesn't matter, let me enjoy." You see. They say frankly, "If I become tree what is the harm? I shall forget." The people have become so rubbish that they have lost their self-interest. Just like if you say to a child that "You are always playing, you are not going to school, you are not becoming educated, you will suffer in your future life, you will have no position in the society." But if he says, "I do not care..." He may say that, but the risk is there. Similarly the modern human being, you inform him about the transmigration of the soul, and by his activities he is supposed to become next life very low grade animal, or aquatics, or reptiles. So if they are informed, if they do not care, that is not very good intelligence. This is a fact.

 

Just like, in my, this life, I can experience. In each stage of my life, I have my past, present and future. You are all young boys. You had your past, as a child, as a boy. Now you are young, and your future is also there as old, as I have become old. So in any stage of life, there is past, present, and future. So why not, I am old man, so when I shall die, why there is no future? There must be future. I had my past, I am at present, and there must be future also. The future is that I must get another body. That body may be of animal or trees or demigod or God. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita, yanti deva-vrata devan pitrn yanti pitr-vratah [bg. 9.25]. You can prepare yourself for your next body. So ultimate goal is to get a body in the kingdom of God. That is -- samsiddhim paramam gatah -- that is highest perfection. You can get a body next in, as a human being in the rich man's family, or as a king, or as a leader, or as a cat, as a dog, as a tree. That will depend on your work. Similarly you can get your next body as associates of God, Krsna. That is stated, that you can have, mad-yajino 'pi yanti mam. "Those who are My devotees, they come to Me," Krsna says.

 

And what is the benefit of going to Krsna? Mam upetya kaunteya duhkhalayam asasvatam napnuvanti [bg. 8.15]. "If someone comes to Me, then he does not get any more this material body to come to this material world." What is the harm if I come to the material world? That duhkhalayam asasvatam [bg. 8.15]. This material world is full of miseries, and that also temporary. Even if you accept that I shall adjust my miserable condition of life, but still nature will not allow you to live there. You may think that "We are Americans, we have got enough money, vast land, resources, I shall live as American." But you can live as American, say for fifty years. You'll not be allowed to live as American or as Indian or this or that. Even as Brahma you will be not allowed. Brahma has got his one day millions of years. He will also not be allowed. The ant will not be allowed, a cat will not be allowed, an elephant will not be allowed, a man will not be allowed, a demigod will not be allowed -- to live forever. Hiranyakasipu tried to live forever. He underwent severe penances to become immortal. It was not possible. That is not. Of course, the lunatic scientist says that "By scientific advancement we shall become immortal." They are lunatic. It is not possible. Because in the past there is no such incident, so in the present there is no such incident, how you can expect in the future such incident? That is not possible.

 

Therefore, intelligent persons, they should try to get the ultimate transmigration. Ultimate transmigration means go back to home, back to Godhead. That should be the actual aim of life. That is first class intelligent. But they do not know. Therefore we are trying to render our humble service to the human society, to give this information, that "You are trying for so many things for becoming happy, but instead of being happy, you are becoming hippie. So please take this Krsna consciousness and actually you will be happy." That is our mission. That is our mission. Therefore the Bhagavata says to this hu..., civilized human being, those who have got some religious principle, church, religious institution, that "You are executing your religious principles very nicely, that's all right. But if you do not develop the propensity for hearing about God..."

 

Just like we have got this temple. We are worshiping Radha-Krsna Deity. That's all right. But side by side we must develop to hear about Krsna. Otherwise it will be finished after a few days. Sravanam kirtanam. As soon as there will be no interest for hearing about God, all these churches and temples and mosques will be finished. In the Christian world that is happening, not only Christian, in other also. They are selling churches. Nobody is going to church, because simply officially going on Sunday without any enlightenment, without any understanding about God, how long it will be prolonged? It cannot be prolonged. People will be disinterested, and they will not go. Actually it is happening. There are so many churches, nobody is going. In London, I have seen. In your country also, there are so many churches vacant. We have purchased so many churches. In Los Angeles we have purchased that church. When it was running as a church, it was a deserted (indistinct). Since we have taken that, every night, every day, hundreds of people are gathering like this, because there is words of Krsna. And people are hearing about Krsna. Visvaksena-kathasu yah. So you can have your churches, temple or mosque, but if you do not develop your tendency to hear about God, then it will not be successful, srama eva hi kevalam. Srama eva hi kevalam.

 

Dharmah svanusthitah. Dharmah svanusthitah pumsam visvaksena-kathasu yah notpadayed yadi ratim [sB 1.2.8], by going daily to the temple, or to the church, or to the mosque, or anywhere, any religious building or institution, if you do not develop your propensity to hear about God, then you have wasted your time. Srama eva hi kevalam. Going and coming, it is simply labor, that's all. So that is the test. Therefore either in temple, or in church, in mosque there must be regular recitation on the talks of God. Otherwise people will lose interest, and the churches and temples have to be closed.

 

So that talks of God is here in Krsna consciousness, because our God is not impersonal, void. No. He is the Supreme Person, Krsna. You can see personally how He's standing, how He's enjoying with His eternal consort, lover, Srimate Radharani. Here is God, actually God is not engaged in punishing somebody, original God. God is engaged in enjoying with His eternal consort, Srimate Radharani. This Srimate Radharani is enchanting Krsna, and Krsna is enchanting Radharani. This is the business of God. Duhe (indistinct) lage hari (?). In the Caitanya-caritamrta it is said that when Krsna comes before Radharani, She becomes so much engladdened by seeing the beauty of Krsna that She becomes more beautiful, and as soon as Radharani becomes beautiful, Krsna becomes engladdened and He becomes more beautiful. So unlimitedly there is competition of becoming more beautiful, duhe lage hurai (?). That is the state. Competition. Because in the spiritual world everything is unlimited. So unlimitedly both of them becoming beautiful and both of them enjoying unlimitedly.

 

So similarly, if we develop our propensity to hear about God and His activities, with His cowherd boys friend, with His girlfriends, gopis, with His mother, with His father, with His teacher, so many! Everything is imitation, perverted reflection here also you have got those relationship. Relationship between father and the son, relationship between conjugal lover, the boy and the girl, relationship between friend and friend, relationship between master and servant. Everything is here also, but because they are material, they do not stand. I am servant of somebody. If he does not pay me salary, I give up his service. I am friend of (indistinct). If my intention is not fulfilled, then I give up that friendship. My love with a boy or with a girl is there, but as soon as there is some discrepancy there is divorce. So here everything is perverted and with so many faulty ideas, but this, this very thing is there in the Kingdom of God. In relationship with God, Krsna. And there everything is eternal. By becoming servant of God, you'll eternally enjoy, same as master. By becoming a friend of God, you enjoy eternal friendship. By becoming father or mother of God, you enjoy the parental affection between father and son. And by becoming lover of God, you become eternally happy.

 

So unless you hear about these things, then how you can be intensified to go to God. Just like when I hear about some country. That this country is like this, and there is such and such happiness and such and such enjoyment, then we think of making a tourist list to go there. Therefore to go back to home, back to Godhead, unless we hear about Him, how we can be inclined. Therefore God comes, Krsna comes. He manifests His pastimes in Vrndavana. How He's dealing with friends, how dealing with servant, mother, father, lover, so that we may be inclined to go back to home, back to Godhead. This is God's mercy. Therefore executing religious principle means the result must be to develop our propensity to hear about God. Notpadayed yadi ratim. This rati, tati means just like rati is called sexual appetite.

 

The Gosvamis, they have described rati, how rati is explained. (indistinct). Just like young boy and young girl, they meet together. Immediately their sex impulse become agitated. It hasn't got to be taught them. Naturally. Naturally. He wants to talk or she wants to talk. So this is called rati. Spontaneous attraction. This is called, it has not to be taught, spontaneous. So as soon as there is spontaneous attraction to hear all about God, that will mean that we are attaining perfection in religion. So if you are going on as a happening program to the church, to the temple, or to the mosque, but there is no spontaneous attraction for hearing about God, then it is simply labor, simply waste of time, that's all. That is explained here.

 

 

dharmah svanusthitah pumsam

visvaksena-kathasu yah

notpadayed yadi ratim

srama eva hi kevalam

[sB 1.2.8]

 

So to come to this platform of spontaneous attraction, you have to execute some other formulas. What is that? As you are coming here with some faith, sraddha, respect. Here is a temple so you should come. You should come regularly. Why? Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sanga. If you come regularly, then these boys and girls who are engaged in the worship of Krsna, or who are developing the life of devotee, practicing under the direction of their spiritual master, they are called sadhu. Sadhu means those who are acting very pious. So those who are acting for Krsna, they're automatically pious, because God is pure, and those who are acting for God, they're pious. Each and every activities in this temple are pious activities. Therefore they are pious. Adau sraddha tatah sadhu-sanga. And as soon as you associate with the pious devotees, naturally there will be inclination to act like them. Why not act like them? Actually that is happening. They are dressing like this or they're keeping their body like this. They're chanting Hare Krsna mantra in the bag. They're worshiping. They're reading. Why not become like that?

 

So adau sraddha, first with respectful tendency to come in this center, then to make association with them. And then next stage is to become like them. Then he approaches the spiritual master, "Kindly initiate me," bhajana-kriya. And as soon as you take to this bhajana-kriya, to devotional service, anartha-nivrttih syat. Anartha, some unwanted things which you have practiced. What is that? Illicit sex. Or if you want sex, why don't you marry and live respectfully, husband and wife. Why illicit sex? This is unwanted, but we are practiced. But if you become devotee, you can give up this nonsense practice. Illicit sex, meat-eating. Why meat-eating? We have got so many nice preparation Sundays, rasagulla, halava, puri, luci. Why shall I eat this nasty thing, rotten. It is slaughtered and kept for 3,000 years in the refrigerator (laughter), and this rotten thing is taken and eaten. So why should we take that. Why smoking? This nonsense. It is stated in every cigarette box it is injurious to health or something like, what is that?

 

Devotee: Warning.

 

Prabhupada: Warning. But still they're eating that poison, they're drinking. So these are anarthas, unwanted things. By bad association we are habituated to this nonsense practice, but if you become a devotee and render service to Krsna under the direction of your spiritual master, these things will automatically vanquish. Anartha-nivrttih syat tato nistha, then your faith becomes firm. Tato nistha tato ruci athasaktis. Asakti, it is spontaneous attraction. So religious principle means you have to execute the preliminary formulas, but the ultimate end will be you'll have spontaneous attraction for hearing about God or Krsna. That is wanted. If that thing is not done, then you are simply wasting time by going to church or temple or mosque or any nonsense. Notpadayed yadi ratim srama eva hi kevalam. Simply waste of time. So don't become a showbottle of religious life. Actually try to understand what is religion, what is God, and make your life successful. (end)

 

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.8 -- New Vrindaban, September 6, 1972

[Guest guest]

Knowledge without a guru is like wanting to taste ghee straight from milk. You have to churn the milk, let it set, make yougurt, allsorts of processes. Well knowledge without a guru is useless. Doesnt last long.

[Guruvani]

 

Knowledge without a guru is like wanting to taste ghee straight from milk. You have to churn the milk, let it set, make yougurt, allsorts of processes. Well knowledge without a guru is useless. Doesnt last long.

that is kinda like an oxymoron.

 

You can't have real knowledge without a guru.

If one has real knowledge then somehow he must already have a real guru.

 

Many gurus have been freely giving out knowledge all over the world for many years.

Now, you are saying that nobody has any knowledge?

 

Then why did all the gurus publish books of knowledge and make them available all over the world for everyone?

[krsna]

 

that is kinda like an oxymoron.

 

You can't have real knowledge without a guru.

If one has real knowledge then somehow he must already have a real guru.

 

Many gurus have been freely giving out knowledge all over the world for many years.

Now, you are saying that nobody has any knowledge?

 

Then why did all the gurus publish books of knowledge and make them available all over the world for everyone?

 

The diksa guru is a teacher who gives you initiation into a mantra or meditation or some kind of sadhana (spiritual practice). They pass on a certain live energy or understanding to you. They must have a high level of accomplishment in the path you wish to learn from them.

 

On a material level this is the mentor you have for a particular field of work who teaches you the final application of your learning.

 

On a spiritual level this is someone who has mastered a spiritual practice and is passing on the teaching.

 

On a religious level it is the priest or rabbi that performs religious rites and initiations.

[passionate_freak]

Hi,

Diksha is essential. Without Diksha one can read and be in the state of Bhakti but won't be able to relate self to the consciouness. Diksha is a meadium to make our task easy. But the Diksha must be given by a capable Guru. There's difference between Guru and Sadguru, though all the sects calim their Guru is Sadguru but when the requirement being a Sadguru is so intensive how come any one could be the one??? Still there are lotta Gurus around.N such Gurus are like the Ph.D. scholars who got the mastery over any one subjects, they can extend their knowledge in few more subjects but acquiring all the knowledge in all fields ??? Only Sadguru can do that, full of knowledge and can even give life to the dead and can speak on any subject without intterruption. Krsna was incarnated by the supreme power as a Sadguru and there came another one but departed without any popularity.

 

We Need a Guru if we want to advance further in Spiritualism. Well, it depends upon a person will what s/he exactly wants? Be in bhakti all life or defying all the hurdles and know the mysteries of the Universe reach the final destination ???

 

We need a Guru.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I wonder if the below applies to Buddhists as well?

 

 

My dear son, I used to call you an atheist. Now I don’t criticize anyone, because faith depends on adhikara. There is no question of criticism in this regard. Everyone is working according to their own adhikara, and they will advance gradually when the time is appropriate. You are a scholar of the sastras dealing with logic and fruitive action, and since your statements are in accordance with your adhikara, there is no fault in them.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Prabhupada is an honorific title, not a first name. It's a very *exalted* honorific. Addressing His Divine Grace as Prabhupada is not disrespectful.

 

And, yes, thanks. You made my day!!

 

 

<quote>"Damned is not the unaccepted chanters but the one who addresses a great Vaisnava by just his first name. Sridhar?"</quote>

Like Prabhupada? Anyways it doesn't take much. The infraction - police will find some semantic quibble to damn you. That must make their day.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

Only Sadguru can do that, full of knowledge and can even give life to the dead and can speak on any subject without intterruption.

 

Oh??? You know of a Guru that speaks about baseball/cricket without interruption?

[passionate_freak]

 

Oh??? You know of a Guru that speaks about baseball/cricket without interruption?

 

 

Ah ah,

 

Well, what should I think this remark is, humorous???LOL. Brother, let's not speak out of our anger or ignorance. Well,I'm not vaisnav or anything, I hate to get introduced through religion or any sects. More than 16 years of search for the truth landed me with some reality, and I'd love dying for the sake of this knowledge. What we've been doing is just mere DISCUSSIONS which would probably make us SCHOLARS...full of arguments...but not a least a devotee or a lover of Krsna or any.

 

We gotta wake up

[Guruvani]

 

 

We gotta wake up

 

When you wake up then give us a holler.

 

Your 16 years is no big thing.

 

I started in yoga, meditation and Vedic knowledge over 32 years ago.

There are some on this forum that have been at it more years than me.

 

So, don't get all proud of your 16 years.

I started in yoga in 1974, probably before you were born.

[passionate_freak]

 

When you wake up then give us a holler.

 

Your 16 years is no big thing.

 

I started in yoga, meditation and Vedic knowledge over 32 years ago.

There are some on this forum that have been at it more years than me.

 

So, don't get all proud of your 16 years.

I started in yoga in 1974, probably before you were born.

 

Yeah sure you started Yoga before I was born and my 16 yers is not a big thing at all, I agree. Time is nothing in the Knowleddge. Even a pinch of time would be far more bigger to get enlightened than a vegitating years. ANd our age doesn't show that we are with the proper knowledge.

 

Well, then with that much lotta knowledge would you mind guiding me into the KUNDALINI AWAKENING and how to get into the SAMADHI state ???

 

 

And thanks for reminding me of my arrogance stating the time.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

You found the humor without needing any smiley faces or winkies--impressive!!

 

My point is, Guru may have access to all sorts of knowledge through the Akashic Records or Divine Inspiration, etc. and may exhibit some mystic potency, but, in general, Guru discusses items of eternal relevance, and not ephemera.

 

 

Ah ah,

 

Well, what should I think this remark is, humorous???LOL. Brother, let's not speak out of our anger or ignorance. Well,I'm not vaisnav or anything, I hate to get introduced through religion or any sects. More than 16 years of search for the truth landed me with some reality, and I'd love dying for the sake of this knowledge. What we've been doing is just mere DISCUSSIONS which would probably make us SCHOLARS...full of arguments...but not a least a devotee or a lover of Krsna or any.

 

We gotta wake up

[theist]

 

When you wake up then give us a holler.

 

Your 16 years is no big thing.

 

I started in yoga, meditation and Vedic knowledge over 32 years ago.

There are some on this forum that have been at it more years than me.

 

So, don't get all proud of your 16 years.

I started in yoga in 1974, probably before you were born.

 

Neither is your 32 years a big thing or my 37 years. We are starting a process of purification and realization that generally stretches out over many many lifetimes.

 

I was doing street sankirtana in 1970. And like I have said before that much time and so little advancement to show for it is an ever increasing embarassment for me.

 

All this "Old time" devotee stuff just makes me gag. It is just some sentimental nonsense thing.

 

Someone with a strong background in bhakti-yoga (from prior births) or someone with no previous experience but simply gets the special mercy of Krsna can make more advancement in a couple years then both of us combined.