One can learn even without Diksha. Then why is Guru Diksha so important???

[cbrahma]

 

Hi,

Diksha is essential. Without Diksha one can read and be in the state of Bhakti but won't be able to relate self to the consciouness. Diksha is a meadium to make our task easy. But the Diksha must be given by a capable Guru. There's difference between Guru and Sadguru, though all the sects calim their Guru is Sadguru but when the requirement being a Sadguru is so intensive how come any one could be the one??? Still there are lotta Gurus around.N such Gurus are like the Ph.D. scholars who got the mastery over any one subjects, they can extend their knowledge in few more subjects but acquiring all the knowledge in all fields ??? Only Sadguru can do that, full of knowledge and can even give life to the dead and can speak on any subject without intterruption. Krsna was incarnated by the supreme power as a Sadguru and there came another one but departed without any popularity.

 

We Need a Guru if we want to advance further in Spiritualism. Well, it depends upon a person will what s/he exactly wants? Be in bhakti all life or defying all the hurdles and know the mysteries of the Universe reach the final destination ???

 

We need a Guru.

"'The holy name of Lord Krsna is an attractive feature for many saintly, liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that, save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the candala. The holy name of Krsna is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Krsna. When a person simply chants the holy name with his tongue, immediate effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the purascarya regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy name does not wait for any of these activities. It is self-sufficient.'"(quoted in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 15.110

[sanatan]

 

Neither is your 32 years a big thing or my 37 years. We are starting a process of purification and realization that generally stretches out over many many lifetimes.

 

I was doing street sankirtana in 1970. And like I have said before that much time and so little advancement to show for it is an ever increasing embarassment for me.

 

All this "Old time" devotee stuff just makes me gag. It is just some sentimental nonsense thing.

 

Someone with a strong background in bhakti-yoga (from prior births) or someone with no previous experience but simply gets the special mercy of Krsna can make more advancement in a couple years then both of us combined.

 

Reflecting on your thoughts...what is "advancement"?

 

I have also often felt that for someone who was so attracted to the Hare Krishna movement at an early age, had great association, and did some objectively-creditable service way back, I blew my opportunities.

 

But maybe you're right; in the early stages, perhaps a life or two or three, it's a gradual paradigm shift that slowly permeates the entire subtle being...at least I feel like that's what's happened to me over 35+ years.

 

The choices I made in early-to-mid adult life reflected a stronger interest in material life and money; the spiritual was always in the background. But, approaching 60, I see how much even that has shaped my present life for the better. Now, I don't regret failing to join the movement at 21. I probably would have quit anyway.

 

Yeh, the oldtimer thing is kind of like a highschool reunion. Good and bad memories, and we can get very caught up in the age and condition of the body.

 

Regarding very fast advancement: I've seen it firsthand and heard of it as well. Awesome to behold.

[theist]

 

Reflecting on your thoughts...what is "advancement"?

 

Advancement to me is simply remebering Krsna is a favorable way more and more and developing a willingness to love Him.

 

 

I have also often felt that for someone who was so attracted to the Hare Krishna movement at an early age, had great association, and did some objectively-creditable service way back, I blew my opportunities.

 

I now that feeling of blown oppurtunities well. But nothing is lost really. Although I think it helpful that we have some regrets over not being more eager to serve. As long as we don't remain in that mindset to the point of issing new oppurtunities when they come. Every moment is really a new oppurtunity to develop Krsna consciousness.

 

For myself I have always felt like like a toddler trying to swim inthe deep end of the pool. I am really ill suited for any sort of yoga process as I hate discipline. I am not by nature religious or even moral or pious. Somehow I have a shadow attraction for Krsna consciousness and studying Srila Prabhupada books (superfically) has ruined my material life. I feel like I am in a dead zone most of the time. Too puffed up to go forward and love Krsna and too aware of what it means to get more materially entangled. I would be a perfect candidate for impersonalism if Srila Prabhupada hadn't shown the absurdity of that path also.

 

What keeps me going sanatan is the knowledge that I am eternal and one day, in one distant birth I will awken to the reality of my true nature and this present dark confusing state will be far behind me.

 

 

But maybe you're right; in the early stages, perhaps a life or two or three, it's a gradual paradigm shift that slowly permeates the entire subtle being...at least I feel like that's what's happened to me over 35+ years.

 

Yeah me too.

 

 

The choices I made in early-to-mid adult life reflected a stronger interest in material life and money; the spiritual was always in the background. But, approaching 60, I see how much even that has shaped my present life for the better. Now, I don't regret failing to join the movement at 21. I probably would have quit anyway.

 

Sounds like the movement was going on within you all the while.

 

 

Yeh, the oldtimer thing is kind of like a highschool reunion. Good and bad memories, and we can get very caught up in the age and condition of the body.

 

Some nice memories can be kept and indulged in I guess but not too excess. It kinda points to not much happening in the present. Krsna consciousness is ever increasing bliss from what I have heard so we need to get plugged in and keep our consciousness updated to the present.

 

Krsna is with us here and now.

 

 

Regarding very fast advancement: I've seen it firsthand and heard of it as well. Awesome to behold.

 

Yes it is. I used to get envious at watching newcomers soon leave me in their dust. And then it occureed to me that better I learn to appreciate the nature of that dust and wish them a hearty Godspeed as the zoom back to Krsna. Afterall why should I not want my brother and sister souls to make rapid advancement? Should bring me joy.

[sanatan]

 

Advancement to me is simply remebering Krsna is a favorable way more and more and developing a willingness to love Him.

Good answer. Now. I’ll have to come up with an answer to my own question.

 

I now that feeling of blown oppurtunities well. But nothing is lost really. Although I think it helpful that we have some regrets over not being more eager to serve. As long as we don't remain in that mindset to the point of issing new oppurtunities when they come. Every moment is really a new oppurtunity to develop Krsna consciousness.

And I need to keep that good advice at the forefront.

 

For myself I have always felt like like a toddler trying to swim inthe deep end of the pool. I am really ill suited for any sort of yoga process as I hate discipline. I am not by nature religious or even moral or pious. Somehow I have a shadow attraction for Krsna consciousness and studying Srila Prabhupada books (superfically) has ruined my material life. I feel like I am in a dead zone most of the time. Too puffed up to go forward and love Krsna and too aware of what it means to get more materially entangled. I would be a perfect candidate for impersonalism if Srila Prabhupada hadn't shown the absurdity of that path also.

Are we brother clones, by any chance?

I am very disciplined when it comes to attaining material objectives and maintaining them; I’ve not yet succeeded in applying this to the spiritual.

 

What keeps me going sanatan is the knowledge that I am eternal and one day, in one distant birth I will awken to the reality of my true nature and this present dark confusing state will be far behind me.

I’m not much of a quoter, and I know you know them already, but these are my favorites in that regard:

 

BG<?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com2:20</st1:time> For the soul there is never birth nor death. Nor, having once been, does he ever cease to be. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing, undying and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.

 

BG 6:20-23 The stage of perfection is called trance, or samadhi, when one's mind is completely restrained from material mental activities by practice of yoga. This is characterized by one's ability to see the self by the pure mind and to relish and rejoice in the self. In that joyous state, one is situated in boundless transcendental happiness and enjoys himself through transcendental senses. Established thus, one never departs from the truth and upon gaining this he thinks there is no greater gain. Being situated in such a position, one is never shaken, even in the midst of greatest difficulty. This indeed is actual freedom from all miseries arising from material contact.

 

Yeah me too.

That gives me confirmation…someone else has had thoughts similar to mine regarding advancement on a subtle level.

 

Sounds like the movement was going on within you all the while.

Yes, I suppose it has been.

 

Some nice memories can be kept and indulged in I guess but not too excess. It kinda points to not much happening in the present. Krsna consciousness is ever increasing bliss from what I have heard so we need to get plugged in and keep our consciousness updated to the present.

Krsna is with us here and now.

I made too much of the memories thing; people like to share commonalities in experience. At times I’m a bit envious of those that joined in the early 70’s…occasionally feel like an outsider for my age, but that’s really in my own head and nowhere else.

Krsna is indeed here now, and the age of the body is illusory…other than it’s going to die a lot sooner than when it was 21 years old!

 

Yes it is. I used to get envious at watching newcomers soon leave me in their dust. And then it occureed to me that better I learn to appreciate the nature of that dust and wish them a hearty Godspeed as the zoom back to Krsna. Afterall why should I not want my brother and sister souls to make rapid advancement? Should bring me joy.

I used to have the same unpleasant emotions often but very rarely do now…at this age I have my own perspective, confidence, and patience, as well as what must be an improved spiritual bank account balance. I like to see others succeed both spiritually and materially.

[theist]

 

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Advancement to me is simply remebering Krsna is a favorable way more and more and developing a willingness to love Him.

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Good answer. Now. I’ll have to come up with an answer to my own question.

 

No need to have an original answer. Mine isn't. Remember Krsna, love Krsna this is the answer the Vaisnavas have given to all of us.

 

 

Are we brother clones, by any chance?

 

Absolutely! =:-) And there are alot of us out here. Never feel like the lone ranger.

 

Fools are happy. The enlightened are really happy. We in the middle suffer alot while trying to remain seated on the fence. And my butt is really getting sore.

[Guruvani]

 

Neither is your 32 years a big thing or my 37 years. We are starting a process of purification and realization that generally stretches out over many many lifetimes.

 

I was doing street sankirtana in 1970. And like I have said before that much time and so little advancement to show for it is an ever increasing embarassment for me.

 

All this "Old time" devotee stuff just makes me gag. It is just some sentimental nonsense thing.

 

Someone with a strong background in bhakti-yoga (from prior births) or someone with no previous experience but simply gets the special mercy of Krsna can make more advancement in a couple years then both of us combined.

No kidding?

I wasn't bragging about my 32 years.

I was just trying to show the passionate-freak that his 16 years is no big deal because he seems to think that he has been at this stuff longer than we have.

 

Maybe he thinks we are just americans who joined the forum last year and started learning about yoga.

 

I was simply trying to show him that we are not a bunch of americans that just recently starting learning about yoga.

 

He seemed to be boasting that he was so learned and vastly knowledgeable because he started learning some yoga 16 years ago.

 

You always want to make me look like a bragger and a boaster but I was simply trying to make a point that maybe he doesn't know as much as he thinks he does.

 

Years don't really mean anything that is for sure.

You are a good example of that.

You had the chance to join ISKCON and become an orginal disciple of Srila Prabhupada but you were so hung up on Jesus, and still are, that you couldn't embrace the full Vaishnava theistic conception and let go of some ancient barbaric religion based on the Bible.

 

It's not how long ago we came in contact that matters.

It's what we have learned and accomplished in those years that matter.

 

I gave 8 years of my life to serving Srila Prabhupada's mission.

That is not much compared to many others.

 

But, even though you came in contact with ISKCON in 1970 you never really surrendered and did enough service to Srila Prabhupada to become his initiated disciple.

 

If we talk about how much service was rendered, I would say I accomplished more in my 32 years that you did in your 37.

 

When I found out about Krishna and ISKCON I immediately within a few weeks joined ISKCON, surrenedered my material possession and my money and gave the next 8 years of my life to serving the mission of Srila Prabhupada.

 

I think you said you did a few days of service in ISKCON?

[theist]

Yes Guruvani, you are my hero. Such a mountain of service on your part is praiseworthy indeed. I on the other hand have not done one moments worth of devotional service. Anything and everything I have ever done has always been self motivated and not out of love for Krsna.

 

[krsna]

 

mahak:

Nicely said. What do you think you can actually learn without diksha? Some verses? Memorize some lists? Fine--then that's what you'll get. But real transcendental knowledge is more than collecting information. The process for learning to love Krishna, for awakening our inherent love for Him, is described by Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in His instructions to Sanatana Goswami (Cc. Madhya-lila, Ch. 22). That's how Krishna reveals Himself to the sincere devotee. If you want something else, then some other process (or lack of process) may work.

 

Diksa is how Krishna reveals Himself to the sincere devotee.

 

That's a nice clear succinct definition!

[krsna]

 

Getting diksa initiation is non-essential

 

Getting Hari-nama from a genuine Vaishnava is essential.

 

Great statements cutting through all mis-conceptions...

[krsna]

 

"'The holy name of Lord Krsna is an attractive feature for many saintly, liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that, save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the candala. The holy name of Krsna is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Krsna. When a person simply chants the holy name with his tongue, immediate effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the purascarya regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy name does not wait for any of these activities. It is self-sufficient.'"(quoted in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 15.110

 

Only a pure Vaisnava Guru can give the pure Holy Name suddha-nama.