Guest guest Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 TRANSLATION Bg 13.34 O son of Bharata, as the sun alone illuminates all this universe, so does the living entity, one within the body, illuminate the entire body by consciousness. PURPORT There are various theories regarding consciousness. Here in Bhagavad-gita the example of the sun and the sunshine is given. As the sun is situated in one place but is illuminating the whole universe, so a small particle of spirit soul, although situated in the heart of this body, is illuminating the whole body by consciousness. Thus consciousness is the proof of the presence of the soul, as sunshine or light is the proof of the presence of the sun. When the soul is present in the body, there is consciousness all over the body, and as soon as the soul has passed from the body there is no more consciousness. This can be easily understood by any intelligent man. Therefore consciousness is not a product of the combinations of matter. It is the symptom of the living entity. The consciousness of the living entity, although qualitatively one with the supreme consciousness, is not supreme, because the consciousness of one particular body does not share that of another body. But the Supersoul, which is situated in all bodies as the friend of the individual soul, is conscious of all bodies. That is the difference between supreme consciousness and individual consciousness. --Srila Prabhupada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 "There are various theories regarding consciousness." Material scientists say the source of consciousness is in the brain. How do you know it comes from some soul or Supersoul? I think scientists can prove consciousness comes from the brain. In a boxing match a knockout is caused by shaking the brain. When that happens consciousness is lost and the man goes down unaware of what is going on in the ring. After sometime the brain regains its equilibrium and consciousness returns. What proof do you spiritual guys have for what you say other than because your book tells you so. Or are you saying what used to be called the soul is really the brain and it's neural network? If that is the case why stick to all this primitive airy fairie talk of souls and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 science can only test that which is phenomenal which limits its boundaries on the paranormal... but your question is a reasonable one, ok if science is your only reason for explaining conciousness through the brain science has also proven that trees which have no brain can feel pain and certain stimulated feelings of emotion like with music for example, so what would the reason be for that explanation. If the tree has no brain but can feel pain and other slight sensations that must mean there is some conciousness (awareness) there in order to experience pain or emotion (to music for example). the brain is simply a tool for the body to recieve neural connections to feel pain and pleasure based on the body, but the soul gives life and conciousness to the brain, another example may be when we are asleep we are not concious of the world around us but we are still concious in another state of responsive awareness such as a dream were we are experiencing emotions and feelings as we do when we are awake but seemingly unconcious to the outside world but we believe them to be real. so if science can prove that the tree does not need a brain to be concious then how can we say that when the body is still alive but the brain is dead or no neural activite like a coma that conciousness is not being experienced in another reality such as a dream like state, even though when awaken one forgets what he has experienced......food for thought J.S das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 You have made some thought provoking points I will admit. But not totally convincing, at least to me, so far. For instance: "ok if science is your only reason for explaining conciousness through the brain science has also proven that trees which have no brain can feel pain and certain stimulated feelings of emotion like with music for example, so what would the reason be for that explanation." I am not aware that science has proven any such thing. Can you provide a scientific referrence to back that up? Also the tree may have a different form of brain that serves the function of generating consciousness just as a tree has a different mode of assimilating nutrients. I wouldn't look for a human brain in a tree i would look for a tree brain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 I think scientists can prove consciousness comes from the brain. In a boxing match a knockout is caused by shaking the brain. When that happens consciousness is lost and the man goes down unaware of what is going on in the ring. After sometime the brain regains its equilibrium and consciousness returns. If I kicked you in your leg really hard that could knock you out. Or your back or neck, or [another part which i need not mention /images/graemlins/grin.gif] What proof do you spiritual guys have for what you say other than because your book tells you so. Consciousness therefore is prevaded thoughout the body, not only in the brain. I don't have a clue what point you were trying to make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 22, 2005 Report Share Posted December 22, 2005 trees scientifically are known not to have organs such as a heart, kidneys, stomach and definitley it is common knowledge a tree does not have a brain..... as for the exact time and who conducted the experiment that the tree feels pain is well documented and is well known but for actual exact information i would have to research that one, might take some time or maybe somebody else can give some insight on this scientificlly proven experiment. there are also many experiments proving that trees react to music and other such things. a tree brain?????? i mean come on thats stretching the truth a little, if your saying a tree brain then why not say the rest of the tree organs, kidneys etc.... we are definitely different than the plant life...... as far as i know science has never proven trees have a tree brain..... a simple example also is the difference between a dead body and an alive one, all the chemicals are there but no conciousness? the brain is there but no conciousness...... also i am sure there are many insects or germs that do not have brains as such, but there making decisions constantly on which direction to move based on some kind of intelligence coming from conciousness...... if your reason is simply genetic coding you could say the same for humans as well but it is not accepted, everything that has to make a decision must have intelligence however minute which comes from conciousness which is a sympton of the presence of the soul......food for thought. J.S das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 I accept your point that trees show signs of life. If they show pain or not maybe semantics on my part because I accept they do register fear which can be argued is a type of pain. Jagadish Chandra Bose documented this at the turn of the twentith century. But even as of several years ago researchers were exploring other ways the human body communicates from one part to another and not just through the nervous system. In the case I am thing off they were investigating the myofascia. There is the Trigger Point work of Travel and Simmons which shows that pain is referred to another area of the body and released in one area by work on a distant area. This can't be explained by the known neural pathways. There is the acupuncture system which has some correlations to the nervous system but is unexplainable by those neural pathways. This idea can be used by both of us I suppose. You to say there is something distinct from matter, a soul or self, and I to say that there are other explanations for pain receptors other than neural. I think the facts so far can be used by both of us. Now what do we do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 "If I kicked you in your leg really hard that could knock you out. Or your back or neck, or [another part which i need not mention ]" I am a life long practioner of Iron Shirt Chi Kung. My bodily aura is impenetrable and just for good measure I double plated that part that we won't mention. Hah Hah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 23, 2005 Report Share Posted December 23, 2005 like i said before there is intelligence in all life forms brain or no brain, pain is not the only sympton of conciousness..... the ability to make a decision proves that there is intelligence however minute which is a sympton of conciousness because of the presence of the soul...... the soul is like a battery which gives life to the dull matter or chemicals. J.S das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2005 Report Share Posted December 25, 2005 like i said before there is intelligence in all life forms brain or no brain, pain is not the only sympton of conciousness..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted December 25, 2005 Report Share Posted December 25, 2005 In reply to: the ability to make a decision proves that there is intelligence however minute which is a sympton of conciousness because of the presence of the soul...... _______________ Intelligence, yes that is not in debate. The source of that intelligence and consciousness you have not yet proven to be the spiritsoul. When a person dies he has no more consciousness. It's gone from his body, so where has this consciousness gone? That was in his body for so long? ANother point is, when a person is dead you cannot revive him by any means, because for some reason something is missing. I am to understand Consciousness never dies, a person never dies. Talking from the standpoint of a non-devotee, how this Consciousness is transferred into another being, [re-incarnation if you will] is a great mystery. The only real conclution you can come to is, it happens by chance. From a devotee standpoint it is meant to happen by the agency of material nature etc. I cannot deny I am a conscious being, but where is this consciousness coming from? My heart? When I think like this then I admit I have no clue whatsoever. Neither do I feel the Scientists have any clue [otherwise why cannot they revive the dead?]. So considering that, what they say is based on speculations. Only thing I can do it accept the fact I am a soul or consciousness, with some faith, UNTIL i realize 'I' am a soul. Pheww. haribol thx Ps. Please choose a nick [call urself Joe bloggs or anything because I want to avoid arguments with anon guests] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 25, 2005 Report Share Posted December 25, 2005 Only thing I can do it accept the fact I am a soul or consciousness, with some faith, UNTIL i realize 'I' am a soul. My feelings exactly! We need the Lord to show us descisively what is what. We must come to a direct knowledge of ourself as ourself. Picking the right theory is not sufficient but when we consider the options the spiritual one makes more sense. At this level our position is a very humble one rather we admit to it or not. We don't know who we are but we have an inkling. When I was a kid a friend and I were out walking some railroad tracks in the woods. At one point we enter a tunnel which turned absolutely dark after the first turn. We progressed by feeling the rail with our feet. After some time a tiny light appeared ahead and we knew that was the end of the tunnel and there was light at the other end although we still could not see our hands before our faces. My spiritual journey is a lot like that walk. A little faith a little knowledge and a long way to go still. I also want to avoid arguments but over the years I have made myself into a target it seems. Probably just karma. To avoid those situations I have chosen to walk in the shadows even more than before in my effort to steer clear of that energy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pankaja_Dasa Posted December 25, 2005 Report Share Posted December 25, 2005 The real definition of Faith is Sraddha. WHich is spiritual. That's what devotees say, makes you think what this Faith actually is. I see that I have faith in many things, Scientists have Faith In science. But that's not what vedas say is Faith. It's actually speculations. So the thing is about it, I would rather have Faith in something which makes a little bit of sence than, speculations. I was in an Athiest room for 30 mins in paltalk messanger, they were saying all the same old. Big bang, Evolution, Dinosaurs, giving me sites. You see this is the kind of thing that tests your faith for me. When I was there I was just a tiny bit laughing at them. It is like they have stopped thinking [they acuse us of the same]. And just believe. [Faith]. I didn't get anything tangible from it. Something concrete. Which makes me think YES, they are right. I would be fooling myself if I said I did. The thing is even Scientists never stop 'searching' for the Secrets of the Universe [remember the message they supposodly put on the moo, to aliens]. SO we all seacrhing, I guess in that way I can harmonize it in my little ity head. All seekers of the Truth. But knowledge is just not enough. Like George harisson said, 'all you need is love', so what is the source of love. ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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