Extremist Spirituality and Politics - a 'generic discussion' string...

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

I guess I wasn't very clear was I - to put down roots - yes that meant 'living here' [of course you didn't say you wanted to move here] and on the politics - I meant the NDP government in this province - actually there isn't alot of major politics in the temples here - which temple were you thinking of visiting?

 

YS,

 

BDM

[Guest guest]

like vancouver or something like that.

tough for outsiders to live there?

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

It's ok to visit there - just be aware of who you say what to - then of course that is the situation everywhere - but yes indeed vancouver temple is nice - at least it was ten years ago when I was there.

 

In vancouver there are scores of devotees who live outside the temple and you could fit in with them - as at times the temple people may end up a little holier-than-thou...

 

But to visit the temple on a sunday for the feast you'll meet lots of nice people to connect with.

 

So for sure do go!

 

YS,

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

...it's laid back - but put down roots and you may find out what I'm saying... but we have to keep 'the boat' as it were - it may be leaking but - if we jump out the boat then what?

 

Reply:

 

In this 'boat' comment - I was indicating ISKCON - the put down roots part - was a keen remark about living in Saskatchewan - so the boat mentioned is ISKCON - not the NDP government.

 

Just to say it here clearly - I do not see Canada's national governing party - the Liberals - as a leaky boat.

 

Due to issues in our world today - like the oft noted extremist turf war - our rights and freedoms may be a leaky boat too - however - I trust that the Liberals shall stop-up that leak - starting here in Saskatchewan!

 

Without a doubt any [minority or otherwise] Conservative government would sink 'the boat' - with 'focused' help from the left-wing NDP.

 

About politics and ISKCON - as far as experiance has been - there isn't much - where there's issues of this - it's more of the traditional scenario - of imperfect people trying to go beyond that capacity in their interactions - but - as for 'threatening issues' tearing at the seams of ISKCON Canada - it's just not happening [nor is much else!] - thank God!

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

I do not want to see even one offensive posting on this topic!

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

I just want to mention that today Pat Robertson opened his offensive mouth in front of the world to speak hate.

 

Today this anti-Semitic evangelical extremist stated that - God is punishing Mr. Sharon - for ‘dividing the land of God’.

 

Recently Jack Van Impe stated that Mr. Rabin was murdered for this very reason and that Mr. Sharon could/should suffer the same fate. How bent!

 

In Jeremiah 27.1-5 - the prophet Jeremiah protested and picketed a public meeting of the government of Judah and - representatives of Edom Moab Ammon Tyre and Sidon.

 

The great prophet Jeremiah protested the 'foreign policy' of ancient Judah!

 

In Jeremiah 27.6-17 the prophet advocated the surrender of Israel's territory to the King of Babylon - in return for peace – today - we would call it - "land for peace."

 

But today – hawkish neo-conservative televangelists have stigmatized the real path to peace which certainly does hinder on - "land for peace".

 

They condemn anyone who even suggests this – saying without logical reasons that the “land for peace” program is unthinkable – no matter the reason whatsoever.

 

These 'preachers' threaten God's wrath against 'anyone' who would support such a thing.

 

Purportedly - it is better for these ‘Cousins in Abraham’ - to keep on killing each other over this land - as these holier-than-thou war profiteers [and irreligionists] collect cash from the sale of their Armageddon materials.

 

 

First I will quote these points:

 

Let him give his cheek to him that smiteth him, let him be filled full with reproach. {S} For the Lord will not cast off for ever. For though He cause grief, yet will He have compassion according to the multitude of His mercies. For He doth not afflict willingly, nor grieve the children of men. {S} To crush under foot all the prisoners of the earth, To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the Most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not. [Lamentations 3.30-36]

 

So these demented preachers do not know the scriptures as if it were true that God is punishing Mr. Sharon – then what about this:

 

Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil; because a sinner doeth evil a hundred times, and prolongeth his days--though yet I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, that fear before Him [Ecclesiastes 8.11-12]

 

So also:

 

I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. 12 For man also knoweth not his time; as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare, even so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. [Ecclesiastes 9.11-12]

 

Behold, this only have I found, that God made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions [calculations]. [Ecclesiastes 7.29]

 

Who are these individuals to speak of God’s judgments and cursing?

 

‘We both read [scripture] day and night – you see black where I see light’ – that phrase was coined in modern times [not sure by whom] and it is interesting to see how that happens with these type of individuals.

 

Today I had a rather disconcerting experience.

 

I often ask strangers in the street to pray for things in the world – mostly peace and understanding.

 

People are very positive to these requests - mostly – but today - I asked what ‘appeared to be a respectable lady’ about 60-ish - to pray for Mr. Sharon and the peace process and - what did she reply to me?

 

She stated that she could not as ‘her god’ would not approve of it.

 

I asked ‘who is this god’ and she replied ‘Jesus’ – I was taken aback slightly – and I asked her ‘didn’t Jesus say that God is One – that ‘he who sees me sees Him who sent me’ [one in purpose] - I asked her ‘why’ [even if that were true that Jesus was god] why she could not pray for someone outside her faith group’ – she became angry as I asked her to quickly tell me how Jesus is God and why he would not approve of such prayers - she gave me a very dirty look and muttered something - as she went into a store.

 

Of course - I know that evangelicals have some very convoluted views with a very selective [mis] understanding of scriptures [even the Christian scriptures!] but these seeding and hate-based comments from the noted preachers indicate how a seemingly nice lady like that could have such a selfish and hateful understanding and thus not want to pray for the mitigation of the sufferings of others.

 

Part of the issue is that they are fixated on some idea that the God of Abraham and Moshe - isn’t God [just like they see Krishna] – it would appear that no amount of discussion can help them to see the truth of the O-N-E – they cannot see this - due to enmity of many different shades.

 

Where is this enmity reposed? The heart.

 

All scriptures establish that God directly knows the hearts and doings of everyone [Proverbs 5.21 and see also 25.3] and that He is indeed judging each of us - at every moment but – it isn’t for them to say ‘oh just see God is cursing/punishing’ – what they are doing is indirectly condoning a violence against the so-called accursed of God!

 

They in their delusions might consider:

 

For the commandment is a lamp, and the teaching is light, and reproofs of instruction are the way of life [Proverbs 6.23]

 

Where do they find themselves in this:

 

Hatred stirreth up strifes; but love covereth all transgressions [Proverbs 10.12]

 

He that refuseth correction despiseth his own soul; but he that hearkeneth to reproof getteth understanding.[Proverbs 15.32]

 

Here is another text from Ecclesiastes - which is very pertinent to these pretender-preachers and their lost followers:

 

Dead flies make the ointment of the perfumer fetid and putrid; so doth a little folly outweigh wisdom and honour. [Ecclesiastes 10.1]

 

So much like dead flies are such ‘pretender-preachers’ and - their followers - who thus make putrid - the ointment of the truth!

 

Why do they ignore texts - like these?

 

These lost souls think that Jesus invented [principles they preach but do not follow] the 'love your enemy' and ‘turn the other cheek’ teaching – but clearly from these quotes - we can see that he was merely quoting authorities – as he did in his preaching [that can be seen when it's separated from the subsequent text muddling] – here we see God say [through the King]:

 

“Let him give his cheek to him that smiteth him, let him be filled full with reproach. {S} For the Lord will not cast off for ever.”

 

So how then do they presume to ‘cast off for ever’ other’s souls etc., is that not serious vanity - playing God as it were?

 

It must be mentioned that this whole ‘cursing’ [of moderate peace bound leaders in Israel] attitude in the evangelicals is motivated by their long-standing manipulations of the mindset of simple-minded peoples - in their acceptance of the evangelical's bogus spin on the 'prophetic scenario' unfloding the future of the State of Israel - the Jewish peoples and - humanity in general.

 

As part of their bent preaching they pump the masses with their poisoned messages and interpretations – what are their motivations?

 

The motivations vary from individual to individual but the central pillar is faith-based hate and ‘dark politics’ which propensities are – without a doubt - as menacing as any other global extremist propagandas and machinations.

 

I could go on and on quoting here [and I want to] but I will just leave it at this:

 

Deliver them that are drawn unto death; and those that are ready to be slain wilt thou forbear to rescue? If thou sayest: 'Behold, we knew not this', doth not He that weigheth the hearts consider it? And He that keepeth thy soul, doth not He know it? And shall not He render to every man according to his works? My son, eat thou honey, for it is good, and the honeycomb is sweet to thy taste; So know thou wisdom to be unto thy soul; if thou hast found it, then shall there be a future, and thy hope shall not be cut off. {P}

 

Be not a witness against thy neighbour without cause; and deceive not with thy lips. Say not: 'I will do so to him as he hath done to me; I wil render to the man according to his work.' {P} [Proverbs 24.11-14 & 28-29]

 

There is NO curse from God on the leader of Israel [neither was there such in Mr. Rabin’s case - God Rest His Soul].

 

There is no-way that any of these evangelical extremists themselves are able to formulate and deliver any real curse [as attempted by some in this case] all their prayers - for the removal of Mr. Sharon - are an offense to God.

 

Whatever good future God has for Mr. Sharon - I know that he has had a very profound and meaningful change in his 'Spirit' and that he is more turning to the Lord – I must state - only God shall deicide what is best for him [and everyone else] – not these fascists - who are themselves hell-bound.

 

There are those in the world who want to be cheated - and God therefore creates such cheaters to misrepresent and delude them.

 

These rascal blind preachers are leading so many others to hell. They are simply misleaders.

 

They know that in this age of quarrel - people in general do not like to accept any real authority.

 

Still - they accept these rascal preachers as "Men of God" and as community 'leaders' and are thus collectively and willingly - being misled into hell.

 

In this way both the rascal preacher-leaders and their unfortunate followers remain bound up by the stringent laws of material nature. Let us pray for them...

 

BDM

[Guest guest]

we need you in the spiritual forum to spice things up a bit post some strange threads or unusual but entertaining threads it's getting a bit boring over there at the moment just try not to ad the politics too much and kick some butt preaching the glories of lord chaitanya mahaprabhu.......haribol

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

...Heh Heh Heh...hari bolo!

[Guest guest]

 

12jan06

 

DOCTORS hope aroma from some of Ariel Sharon's favourite foods will help rouse the Israeli Prime Minister from his coma.

Israel radio said a plate of shawarma, a sliced meat dish, had been put in his hospital room.

 

Before a severe stroke last week, the overweight Mr Sharon had a legendary love affair with food, and ignored repeated medical advice to lose some kilos.

[Guest guest]

Pray for him - didn't you ever eat flesh in your life and like it too [maybe not but likely] - we can pray that when he awakes and is recovered fully - he'll stop eating meat.

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Something of noteworthiness:

 

A few weeks before, the House of Lords—once a rubber-stamp hereditary body of eccentrics, since reformed by Blair into a more meritocratic and relevant legislature—had restricted the prime minister’s ban on “inciting religious hatred” by forcing prosecutors to prove malicious intent and adding a provision recognizing the right to “ridicule, insult, or abuse” other religions. At press time, the House of Lords was threatening to scotch Blair’s “glorification of terrorism” law altogether.

 

 

http://www.reason.com/0602/co.mw.the.shtml

 

So Tony Blair introduced a good point to law and the HOL want the new law – which prevents incitment of religious hatred – to not include the [socalled] right to “ridicule, insult, or abuse” other religions – so what is the point then? Blair deserves a good point on this one.

 

As for the other part of the law - “glorification of terrorism” legislation – that in and of itself isn’t bad.

 

I have noted in the past that we indeed have a right to free speech – but uttering threats isn’t free speech.

 

People who “ridicule, insult, or abuse” other religions are not helping society – really – do we need people saying anything and everything in a world full of idiots?

 

In Canada the law is such that if one makes a statement against another faith and it is framed in the context of a religious discussion – then it isn’t hate incitement:

 

319. (1) Every one who, by communicating statements in any public place, incites hatred against any identifiable group where such incitement is likely to lead to a breach of the peace is guilty of

 

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

 

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

 

(2) Every one who, by communicating statements, other than in private conversation, wilfully promotes hatred against any identifiable group is guilty of

 

(a) an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years; or

 

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction

 

(3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)

 

(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true;

 

(b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;

 

© if the statements were relevant to any subject of public interest, the discussion of which was for the public benefit, and if on reasonable grounds he believed them to be true; or

 

(d) if, in good faith, he intended to point out, for the purpose of removal, matters producing or tending to produce feelings of hatred toward an identifiable group in Canada.

 

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/c-46/42972.html

 

So that is a balanced law – and it doesn’t permit hate mongering - but it doesn’t impede fair exchange of ideas either.

 

There is abuse of this law though in Canada by some 'media-preachers' – but we are not expecting perfect understanding of this law - by yesterday – but it might be soon?

 

The area that we would be concerned with would be any limiting – in any way - legally or extra-judiciously - our right to be critical [in a legitimate manner] of leaders and political groups – if that ever becomes classed as sedition mongering – an already ‘borderline’ society moves into a deeper ‘degrade mode’ and there will be trouble for all – age of quarrel unchecked. Like when they take ‘rights’ to uphold any "new" ‘law’…?

 

Quite frankly though - it is time the world stop this marching into the abyss…

 

Now today - Hamas has won the election – oh sad day?????

 

So of course I shall pray that they change [i have been praying for that for a long time – years] and embrace tolerance understanding and peace – if they don’t they are going to be the end of us all…

 

Without doubt we are not at a regular cross roads in our world – not - this cross roads intercepts through a karmic quantum singularity – do we know where we shall end up?

 

How far back shall ALL of humanity be regressed if the world takes that fatal last wrong turn into a black hole?

 

It is time for everyone to see that beyond all the conflicts and competitions - everyone essentially needs the same thing – peace and security.

 

So let’s see the ever-changing leaders - move past competition and conflict – let’s see them REALLY PROVE why they are qualified - by fulfilling these two items – peace and security.

 

The longer the human race fights like this – the closer we are to a world without humans…there is after all a global bird flu pandemic in the works [only God knows what other natural disasters are on the event horizon] - do the germs care if were this one or that one – with regard for status and beliefs? No! Yes we know it shall affect everyone everywhere...that'll put an end to all the conflict and competition?

 

BDM

 

[Guest guest]

does the don have anything to say about the money masters and fractional reserve banking.

[Guest guest]

your so worried about politics but what about the real problem for a struggling economy.......FRACTIONAL RESERVE BANKING.

 

Wake up to the reality, whoever you pick to be the so-called leader changes nothing in the face of those who control the economy.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

"<big>The Presence</big>"

 

 

BDM

[Kulapavana]

you speak of muslim and christian fanatics and extremists, and rightfully so - they need to be condemned. but you left out one category: jewish fanatics. they are just as bad. the state of Israel was started by people you can easily describe as terrorists. they blew up arab targets, and they blew up british targets, and many innocent people were killed by them. lets condemn ALL such religious and political extremism. can you do that BDM?

[Guest guest]

If you read the Origins of the Satan Myth... string you would have seen that I do castigate extremists of all persuasion and naturally - that includes Israeli extremists too - so please go back and read that it is everywhere in that thread.

 

As for the State of Israel being established by terrorists - you cannot single out the points in history that satisfy your position - to the exclusion of others.

 

Yes there were mistakes made – but there was not a conspiracy to cheat the Palestinians – what is going on there now is 'Karma' out-of-control – and what is going to solve it?

 

So ask yourself - why do some of the Arab Muslims speak of Jews with such dark hate? Why do they seem to ascribe to the nazi versions of recent war history? Why for example does Hamas use the infamous 'protocols' as a part of their denouncement of Jews and Israel - as though these are not a hate-based forgery?

 

We all have to share this world and we all have a responsibility to do what we can to prevent quarrel – if we are stuck in a mode of racial and religious suspicion and hate - we are never going to avoid conflict.

 

All the great faiths admonish adherents to get along with others – I know some 'confused' followers interpret Islamic Christian and Hebrew [and even Vedic!] scriptures and make problems for themselves and others - by coming away with an exclusivist misunderstanding of the texts.

 

Kulapavana prabhu - we need to encourage the opposite!

 

So of course extremists are in every group and they need to come to a proper understanding and - that may only happen if they are denied any counter-point party to fight with – it may take time – but that is the gist of it.

 

So that is again everyone’s responsibility - within their own environments - to see to harmony and inclusion - not exclusion and discord.

 

This is the point of our future struggle in this world – opposing sides cannot cancel-out each other without wiping out their own futures too – so then there is only one option – for them all to see the logic of - ‘it is better to have ten inches to stand upon than a hundred yards to fall’…

 

YS,

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

They're at it again: a Middle Eastern country is accused of having, aspiring to have, and wishing they had "weapons of mass destruction." Its leader is demonized as worse than Hitler. Its ambitions are described as virtually unlimited. And it is said to be threatening its neighbors – and the United States.

 

http://www.antiwar.com

 

Well in the case of Iran - there is reason to be very concerned - anyone who can dismiss the many comments made by her president may be found to be ill prudently foolish in the end.

 

The question is how best to deal with Iran but - there is no doubt that 'something' must be done.

 

Outside of all the readiness to war for all these parties - Iran has to make some real efforts and her president has to grow up and reconsider his responsibility to the life and liberty of his people - not that his responsibility is to do what they are hinting at - attacking others.

 

Are there terrorists in Iran - yes - without a doubt and - if the president of Iran doesn't come to understand that through that culitvation of terror and terorists - the resultant myriad of extremists will one day present a group [much more extremist than him] that will be 'the end of his regime' - and does he ever question how he cannot trust 'everyone' presently at his disposal? If not - then he is a done deal - from within?

 

There is a point about unstable political ideologies - at some point they are a source of great distress to those who've committed so much of themselves to that political cause. With the addition of 'religion' it becomes evermore worse in it's reactive nature.

 

Theocracy may sound like a good idea to some people but in the end it isn't - and anyone with any amount of understanding can see that.

 

When we see the states where there is such governances there are also terrible repressions of the people and - there are repressions of those who do not agree with that form of governance - so in that respect alone - it isn't a good form of government to deal with.

 

In those far-away places where the efforts of transplanting democracy is going on – an alternative door is being opened – however - there is too the serious danger that theocratic types may take the vote [like Hamass recently] and rule as though it were a tyranny - if even for four year stints.

 

Now here in North American politics we may be seeing seedling developments of this - only in a different category – we already have the democracy – what we are seeing is an increase of theocratic ideals within government leaders.

 

Let us hope that that trend wanes quickly as when the real fight comes - 'they' cannot be covered by ill theocratic leanings themselves.

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Hillary Clinton and George W. Bush, leaders of their parties, see eye-to-eye on the most pressing concerns facing the U.S. and the Middle East today.

 

http://www.antiwar.com/frank/?articleid=8515

 

Mrs. Clinton a mindless player in the arena - I'd rather stick with Bush...

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

 

 

In Britain, the government recently decided to deploy global positioning system (GPS) technology to track every vehicle in the U.K. every minute of the day. Just as GPS sensors are mandated for use in every cell phone in the near future in the United States (for our safety, of course), Britain will mandate the use of a GPS sensor in every car. ``Has Reginald White arrived at the grocery store yet?'' will become a question answerable by the security division of Britain's DMV.

 

Read more:

 

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1229-35.htm

 

Hey I wonder what devotees think about this - any comments about this desire to encroach on our privacy?

 

 

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

NEWS

 

he distinguished the suicide attacks carried out by Palestinian groups against Israel, saying the attacks were justified by groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad as "legitimate means of war under occupation."

 

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/journalgazette/13865171.htm

 

What a load of bunk!

 

I think that the Saudi Arabian Ambassador is a little too quick to justify these homicide bombings – what exactly is he trying to prove in saying this?

 

There may be an occupation and a war of sorts – but that is not any justification for heinous actions – such as the killing of citizens.

 

That is one thing that the Ambassador forgot to factor into his assessment – these homicide bombers are killing innocent civilians in the streets not soldiers on a battlefield – that makes his explication on the matter moot.

 

I would caution any individual from thinking that his point has merit – just see as Krishna says:

 

And that action performed in ignorance and delusion without consideration of future bondage or consequences, which inflicts injury and is impractical, is said to be action in the mode of ignorance. [bhagavad Gita 18.25]

 

The loss of civilian lives - in so-called ‘friendly fire’ - is nothing like the targeting of civilians:

 

Whenever there is a war, there is certainly a massacre of many innocent living beings, such as boys, brahmanas and women, whose killing is considered to be the greatest of sins. They are all innocent creatures, and in all circumstances killing of them is forbidden in the scriptures. Maharaja Yudhishthira was aware of these mass killings. Similarly, there were friends, parents and preceptors also on both sides, and all of them were killed. It was simply horrible for him to think of such killing, and therefore he was thinking of residing in hell for millions and billions of years. [sB 1.18.29, purport]

 

Why is it that the terror goes on but there are no actual changes for the good? See how stupid that question is!

 

That is the point – in this conflict the parties are more and more fighting for the wrong purposes – they’re fighting for revenge - not reform and – they’re fighting without rules or regulations – it seems that they must exponentially out-do each others atrocities – indeed it’s becoming the sickest one-upmanship process one could imagine.

 

Both parties wrongly identify with their own justifications of their violent reactions - as opposed to rejecting such justifications - irrespective of the circumstances.

 

The comments [false justifications] made by the Ambassador do not help the Palestinians in this connection.

 

Here is something that I posted - in the ‘Origins of the Satan Myth’ string:

 

Violence is not any good way to induce reformations - All these point counter-point 'leaders' must NOW understand - violent retaliations are not any good way of inducing reformations in each other. The sickest thing someone can do to make change is to act heinously. That kind of mode of ignorance action does bring change - it brings more power for abusive administrations – it creates a despicable atmosphere for everyone - including those who thus act.

 

So I hope that the Ambassador renounces the noted comments.

 

BDM

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

Quote:

 

I hope that the Ambassador renounces the noted comments.

 

Reply:

 

Well we can see that he hasn't [yet] retracted the comments.

 

Reading the news today we see:

 

One of Rice's main goals is to line up Egyptian and Saudi Arabian officials…

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=aAZtXbpIFTA4

 

Well of course when the ambassador of Saudi Arabia made these odd comments:

 

he distinguished the suicide attacks carried out by Palestinian groups against Israel, saying the attacks were justified by groups like Hamas and Islamic Jihad as "legitimate means of war under occupation."

 

He was indicating that they might not [yet] be on the same page as the Whitehouse [and the west in general].

 

Of course Dr. Rice wants to encourage them to do the right thing but there may be some limitations in these allies - as long as there are apologetics like these.

 

It would seem that the Whitehouse should ask the ambassador to retract his noted comments.

 

All through this conflict [and others too] there are justifications of heinous actions – heinous actions are used to justify heinous actions – where can there be peace and success for the parties within this scenario?

 

The conflicted parties must both see their own heinous actions as reprehensible – not matter the 'natural' pressure to do otherwise – in so dong they are going to see that they are both suffering with extra karmic issues - needlessly - in this point-counter point conflict.

 

Some people like to think that using violence for making change is a natural consequence of political life but – the fact is - it is really a sad consequence of itself – violence only begets violence.

 

I don’t want to be all preachy about Lord Jesus here but that is the logic in His great understanding of Karma in preaching - ‘turn the other cheek’ – he knew that - ‘an eye for an eye’ - was basically 'the natural law of God'.

 

He however admonished people - to rise above this – in doing this He was basing His understanding within the wisdom books of the holy scriptures:

 

Let him give his cheek to him that smiteth him, let him be filled full with reproach. {S} For the Lord will not cast off for ever. [Lamentations 3.30-31]

So what does that mean ‘the Lord will not cast off for ever’ – that means that if God forgives eventually then - so must we? Naturally!

 

Even in Koran it is written thus:

 

And there are some people who say: We believe in Allah and the last day; and they are not at all believers. They desire to deceive Allah and those who believe, and they deceive only themselves and they do not perceive. There is a disease in their hearts, so Allah added to their disease and they shall have a painful chastisement because they lied. And when it is said to them, Do not make mischief in the land, they say: We are but peace-makers. Now surely they themselves are the mischief makers, but they do not perceive. [Koran 2.8-12]

 

do not quarrel for then you will be weak in hearts and your power will depart, and be patient; surely Allah is with the patient. [Koran 8.46]

 

Those who spend [benevolently] in ease as well as in straitness, and those who restrain [their] anger and pardon men; and Allah loves the doers of good [to others]. [Koran 3.134]

 

So of course one cannot be "patient" and violent too – we need to "restrain anger and pardon" because that is what God wants.

 

To quote the rest of the original Lamentations quote:

 

For though He cause grief, yet will He have compassion according to the multitude of His mercies. For He doth not afflict willingly, nor grieve the children of men. {S} To crush under foot all the prisoners of the earth, To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the Most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not. {S} [Lamentations 3.32-36]

 

To crush under foot all the prisoners of the earth, To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the Most High, To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not.

 

So there is something for both sides to consider too!

 

So what is that all mean for these parties?

 

It means that they all have to see the truth - as it is there in front of all of them.

 

The door to the way out of this mess for all of them - is in fact - outlined in those few quotes!

 

So we can hope that Ms. Rice is going to be able to reach these ‘officials’ in particular – the Saudi Arabians. The Saudis are good people and their leaders aren’t all that bad and - I am sure that the comments made by the ambassador shall actually be a pretext for some real discussion within these parties.

 

Again I like this quote from the Talmud – it is very practical in this connection – this should be the mood for both conflicted parties:

 

It is better to have ten inches to stand upon than a hundred yards to fall. [Avoth d'Rab. Nathan, chapter 1]

 

Both sides have needs and both sides have to see to each other’s needs – and I see good things in the future – even Bush and Co. – they are going through a very good transformation – I can sense it.

 

We can avoid age of quarrel unleashed – we don’t have to see that level of conflict before we understand – no matter where in the world we live.

 

There are many rogue leaders out there too and they are going to have to consider that the world’s goal is to isolate them – and there is no doubt that there shall be assistance from Providence in the doing so.

 

All the leaders [and their parties] in the world are at a crossroads – they must choose to create a future and not any more hell on earth – anywhere on earth.

 

May God Bless the Leaders and - thus help them to do the right thing.

 

BDM