Christianity and Sanatan Dharma

[dhaa]

Christian: Can you explain the Vaisnava viewpoint of Christianity?

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Christianity is incomplete Vaisnavism; not fullfledged, but <font color="red">the basis of devotional theism.</font color> We find the principle of "Die to live" there to a certain extent, at least physically. The Christians say that the ideal shown by Jesus is self-sacrifice. In our consideration, however, that is not fullfledged theism, but only the basis. It is an unclear, vague conception of Godhead: "We are for Him." But how much? And in what shape, in what attitude? All these things are unexplained and unclear in Christianity. Everything is hazy, as if seen from far off. It does not take any proper shape. The cover is not fully removed, allowing us to come face to face with the object of our service. The conception of service to God is there, and a strong impetus to attain that, so the foundation is good, but the structure over the foundation is unclear, vague, and imperfect.

 

[...]

 

Only a general idea of our relationship with God is given there, but when we have to define in detail the characteristics of God, and in which relationships to approach Him, Christianity gives us only a hazy idea.

 

Once some Christian priests told our guru maharaja that madhurya rasa (conjugal relationship with God) is also found within Christianity. In the middle ages, there was a fashion amongst the Christians to consider Christ as a bridegroom, and some parable is also given where Lord Jesus Christ is considered as a bridegroom. So, they said that madhurya rasa, the consort relationship, is also found within Christianity. Prabhupada told them, "That is with His Son, with His devotee; not with God." Son means guru, the deliverer.

 

[...]

 

To conceive of God as our Father is an incomplete understanding, for parents are also servitors. He must be in the center; not in any extremity of the whole...I am speaking about Jesus, who has given the ideals of Christianity. I am speaking about the principles of Jesus. He has given some understanding by installments, but not full knowledge. We agree about the strong foundation of theism. Jesus was crucified because he said, "Everything belongs to my Father. Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, and render unto God that which is His." So, the foundation is very good; it is laudable, but that is only the first installment of the theistic conception.

 

[...]

 

We must cross the threshold given by Jesus. He has declared, "Die to live." The Lord's company is so valuable to us that we must risk everything for Him. This material achievement is nothing; it is all poison. We must have no attraction for it. We must be ready to leave everything, all our material prospects and aspirations, including our body, for Him. God is great. But what is His greatness? What is my position? How can I engage myself in His service twenty-four hours a day? Here, Jesus is silent.

 

We receive no specific program from the Christians at this stage, so Vaisnavism comes to our heart's relief, to satisfy our inner necessity, whatever it may be. Our inner thirst will be quenched there. ~The Search For Sri Krsna Reality The Beautiful~

 

 

Bhaktivinoda: Why do they say that animals have no souls? Why do birds and beasts not have souls like human beings? Why do the human beings have only one life, and, because of their actions in that one life are rewarded in eternal heaven or punished with eternal hell? Any person who believes in a truly kind and merciful God will find this religion completely unacceptable.

 

The followers of this religion have no power to worship God selflessly. In general their idea is that by cultivating fruitive work and speculative philosophy one should work to make improvements in the material world and in this way please God. By building hospitals and schools, and by doing various philanthropic works, they try to do good to the world and thus please God. Worship of God by performing fruitive work (karma) and by engaging in philosophical speculation (jnana) is very important to them. They have no power to understand pure devotional service (suddha-bhakti), which is free of fruitive work and philosophical speculation. Worship of God done out of a sense of duty is never natural or unselfish. "God has been kind to us, and therefore we should worship Him." These are the thoughts of lesser minds. Why is this not a good way to worship God? Because one may think, "If God is not kind to me, then I will not worship Him." In this way one has the selfish, bad desire to get God's kindness in the future. If one wishes that God will be kind by allowing one to serve Him, then there is nothing wrong with that desire. But the religion under discussion does not see it in that way. This religion sees God's kindness in terms of one's enjoying a happy life in this material world. (From Tattva-viveka commentary)

 

 

Pancadravida: ...that these Old and New Testament and Koran, they are the sastras of the (sic:) yauvanas. They are not the same as the Vedic sastras. They are not as... <font color="red">They are not bona fide like that.</font color>

 

Prabhupada: Yes.

 

Pancadravida: Does this mean they are not authentic or... How did they come here?

 

Prabhupada: Who?

 

Pancadravida: These Bible and Koran, how did they get here? They were just inventions or what?

 

Prabhupada: Convention means they are partially good for the time being, that’s all. They are not eternally... Just like in the Bible it is said, “Thou shalt not kill.” (chuckles) But this is not, does not come within the category of eternal religion. People were so corrupted that they were forbidden, “No, don’t do this.” “Thou shalt not covet,” a little moral instruction. That also, they could not follow. There is no religion. And <font color="red">little God consciousness, “There is God, kingdom of God,” little idea for the persons who could understand.</font color> Otherwise, do you think that if somebody says, “Thou shalt not kill,” is that any religious principle? It is ordinary thing. Where is the question of God? ~Morning Walk April 20, 1974~

 

 

Prabhupada: So on the principle that God is Supreme, God is Great, I do not think there is any difference of opinion between us and the Christians. But the Vedic literatures being older and disseminated by many, many <font color="red">superior acaryas</font color> we can find out how God is great, how the creation took place one after another. These details are not found in any other scriptures in the world ~Letter to Tosana Krsna, June 23 1970~

 

 

Prabhupada: "There is no difference between chanting and hearing or remembering or worshiping in the temple. Çravaëaà kértanaà viñëoù smaraëaà päda-sevanam, arcanam [sB 7.5.23]. The temple worship is called arcanam. Vandanam, offering prayers. The Christians, the Muhammadans, they offer prayer. Of course, <font color="red">not to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, but impersonal feature or some idea. But that prayer is also one of the processes of bhakti.</font color> Anyone who accepts the supremacy of God, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, his process of worship has to be considered in the category of bhakti-yoga (740422sb.hyd)

 

 

Prabhupada: If you think that “I shall read scriptures and I shall understand God,” no, that is also not possible. srutayo vibhinnah. Scriptures are also different. Because scriptures are made according to time, circumstances, people. Just like Bible. Bible Lord Jesus Christ preached in the desert, Jerusalem. Or where it is? People who were not so advanced. Therefore his first instruction is “Thou shall not kill.” That means they were very much engaged in killing affairs; otherwise, why is this instruction? And actually, it so happened that they killed Jesus Christ. So that society was not very enlightened society. So a scripture for a society which is not very enlightened and a scripture for a society which is very enlightened must be different. Just like a dictionary. For the schoolboy, a pocket dictionary. And for a college student, international, big dictionary. <font color="red">Both of them are dictionaries. But the small pocket dictionary is not equal to the big dictionary.</font color> Because it is different made for different classes of men. So scriptures are made according to different classes of men ~Lecture September 23, 1969~

 

 

Prabhupada: Caitanya Mahaprabhu informs us that in every country and in every scripture there is some hint of love of Godhead. Unfortunately no one knows what love of Godhead actually is. The Vedic scriptures, however, are different in that they can direct the individual in the proper way to love God. Other scriptures do not give information on how one can love God, nor do they actually define or describe what or who the Godhead actually is. <font color="red">Although they officially promote love of Godhead, they have no idea how to execute it. But Caitanya Mahaprabhu gives a practical demonstration of how to love God in a conjugal relationship.</font color> (TLC Intro)

[dhaa]

EDITORIAL, Jun 14 (VNN) — Q & A with Swami B. V. Tripurari "There are many manifestations of the Divine and all of them have their purpose and sentiments in the grand scheme of the life of God. <font color="red">The beautiful and appropriate thing to do is to honor all of them for what they are, not to inordinately merge them together."</font color>

 

Q. The raga-marg, or path of spontaneous love, requires that the Godhood of Krsna be obscured in order to cultivate a special relationship with him. In Christianity we see that Mother Mary has a special relationship with Jesus in the parental mood (vatsalya rasa) and it seems that Catholic saints like Faustina and Theresa experienced a conjugal mood (madhurya rasa) of love for Jesus. Might then one cultivate a particular raga marg sentiment for Jesus as is done in Gaudiya Vaisnavism for Krsna?

 

A. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura specifically rejected this notion. He said that Jesus is the son and guru figure, not the Personality of Godhead. While there are certainly other ways to view Jesus, we follow his opinion and those of the Gaudiya parampara regarding the raga-marg.

 

The raga marg is defined as being in relation to the residents of Vrndavana, who love Krsna primarily in four spiritual sentiments such that his Godhood is obscured. Those sentiments are that of a servant (dasya rasa), friend (sakhya rasa), parent (vatsalya rasa), and lover (madhurya rasa). The residents of Vrndavana are known as ragatmikas, or devotees who have spontaneous love for Krsna. The path of raga means following the ragatmikas in their mood of love for Krsna. If we stretch this concept to make it generic, we must ask who are the ragamikas of Jesus that one is supposed to emulate and what particular pastimes, moods, feelings, and so forth do they exhibit on the eternal, transcendent plane of perfection.

 

Furthermore, making raga-marg universal and applicable to any manifestation of God is in a sense unnatural and defeats its purpose.

 

There are many manifestations of the Divine and all of them have their purpose and sentiments in the grand scheme of the life of God. The beautiful and appropriate thing to do is to honor all of them for what they are, not to inordinately merge them together. This kind of merging is usually done to bolster one's faith, but with regard to the raga-marg, faith in the uniqueness of the Vraja-lila of Krsna is central to its practice.

 

Ultimately, I think that under scrutiny it is apparent that the bride of Christ concept posited by Theresa and others is really not supposed to be taken as an ontological reality but as a psychological perspective from which to approach Christ. That is, I do not know of any Christian saint who taught that the goal of Christianity is to reside in the spiritual world as the eternal bride of Christ.

 

[...]

 

In comparing this idea to the raga-marg of Sri Caitanyadeva, the question again is who are the ragatmikas of Jesus that one must emulate to attain perfection in the parental mood of Mother Mary? If one replies that Mary herself is a ragatmika in vatsalya bhakti, we must inquire further into the childhood lila of Jesus, for it is the childhood of Krsna that is central to Yasoda's parental love for him. However, such information does not exist. Also, what sadhana has been established in the Catholic Church or otherwise in Christianity that teaches how to shed one's material conception of self and enter into this mood? All considered, the Mother Mary or bride of Christ concepts are not the goal of Christianity and relate only vaguely to the raga-marg of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. I believe any Catholic theologian who is familiar with Gaudiya Vaisnavism will agree with this statement.

[Guest guest]

CC Adi 17.165-167

 

Mahaprabhu: Since you Muslims cannot bring killed cows back to life, you are responsible for killing them. Therefore you are going to hell; there is no way for your deliverance. <font color="red">Cow-killers are condemned to rot in hellish life for as many thousands of years as there are hairs on the body of the cow.</font color> There are many mistakes and illusions in your scriptures. Their compilers, not knowing the essence of knowledge, gave orders that were against reason and argument.

 

 

CC Adi 17.217-18

The chanting of the holy name of Krishna from your mouth has performed a wonder -- it has nullified the reactions of all your sinful activities. Now you have become supremely pure. Because you have chanted three holy names of the Lord -- Hari, Krishna and Narayana -- you are undoubtedly the most fortunate and pious."

 

Partial Purport 217: <font color="red">Confirming the potency of the sankirtana movement</font color>, these words from the very mouth of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu express how people can be purified simply by chanting the holy name of Lord Krishna. The <font color="red">Kazi was a Muslim mleccha, or meat-eater, but because he several times uttered the holy name of Lord Krishna, automatically the reactions of his sinful life were vanquished </font color> and he was fully purified of all material contamination.

 

Partial 218: Here the Supreme Lord, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, confirms that anyone who chants the holy names Hari, Krishna and Narayana without offense is certainly extremely fortunate, and whether Indian or non-Indian, Hindu or non-Hindu, he immediately comes to the level of the most pious personality.

 

 

[Guest guest]

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat/cat/hinduism/48772/0/collapsed/5/o/2

 

Prabhupada: The word asuci-vratah, unclean vow, is very significant in this connection. Such demoniac people are only attracted by wine, women, gambling and meat-eating; those are their asuci, unclean habits. Induced by pride and false prestige, they create some <font color="red">principles of religion which are not approved by the Vedic injunctions.</font color> Although such demoniac people are most abominable in the world, still, <font color="red">by artificial means the world creates a false honor for them. Although they are gliding toward hell, they consider themselves very much advanced.</font color>

[dhaa]

He who discards scriptural injunctions and acts according to his own whims attains neither perfection, nor happiness, nor the supreme destination. (bhagavad-giitaa 16.23)

 

CC Adi 17.166

 

Caitanya: Cow-killers are condemned to rot in hellish life for as many thousands of years as there are hairs on the body of the cow.

 

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/showflat/cat/hinduism/48772/0/collapsed/5/o/2

 

yaavanti pashuromaaNi taavatkR^itvo ha maaraNam |

vR^ithaapashughnaH praapnoti pretya janmani janmani || MS 5.38 ||

 

As many hairs as the slain beast has, so often indeed will he who killed it without a (lawful) reason suffer a violent death in future births (manu smR^iti 5.38).

 

maa.m sa bhakShayitaa'mutra yasya maa.msamihaad myaham |

etatmaa.msasya maa.msatva.m pravadanti maniiShiNaH || MS 5.55 ||

 

Me he (mam sah)' will devour in the next (world), whose flesh I eat in this (life); the wise declare this (to be) the real meaning of the word 'flesh'

(mamsah) (manu smR^iti 5.55)

 

[Guest guest]

Can you explain the Vaisnava viewpoint of Christianity?

 

mahaksadasa: The Vaisnava viewpoint of christianity and Lord Jesus Christ are two subjects, not related to each other. Christianity is a religion, and the Vaisnava adheres to Krsnas instructions to Arjuna, the conclusion of Srimad Bhagavad Gita. This conclusion is that the Vaisnava abandons all varieties of religion and simply surrenders to the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

Lord Jesus Christ taught this important principle as well. He did not instruct his disciples to accept the religion of the Sanhedrin, he did not require them to be members of the Pharasee class. His mission was outside the realm of creation of religion. His mission Statement is the prayer he gives to his disciples, where he invokes the all auspicious Name of the Supreme Father who has sent Him. His mission statement is to have his disciples become humble to the point of forgiving all others' offenses prior to accepting forgiveness from the Supreme Lord. His mission statement is to have disciples surrender to the Supreme Father as the One who controls the transcendental loving exchange between God and humankind.

 

The religions that bear the name of Lord Jesus Christ either accept or reject his teachings, it is up to the followers of Lord Jesus to decide whether such a religion is from Him or diametrically opposed to his mission. He actually predicted, as Srila Prabhupada also noted in his warnings against kali cela (demons posing as vaisnavas), that there will be an influx of those who do NOT follow the will of His Supreme Father, yet bear His name.

 

When we speak of sanatana dharma, we do not speak of christianity, judaism, islam, or hinduism. We are speaking of the actual position of the self in relationship with the Supreme Lord. Sanatana dharma is nothing that can be joined, quit, excommunicated from, baptized into. It is the natural constitutional position of all beiongs. We are either in a stage of rememberance or forgetfulness, or perhaps a foggy, but clearing, in-between stage. Religions have nothing to do with any of this. However, the Acarya enables the disciple to REMEMBER sanatana dharma. Sanatana dharma is not a religion.

 

Srila Prabhupada accepts always the potency and authenticity of Lord Jesus Christ. His admonishment is with those who use His Name in vain, authorize gross materialism in His Name, etc. The Vaisnava has no use for materialists who justify their abhorrant activities by cloaking themselves in religiosity. However, the vaisnava always welcomes any activity which causes one to be aroused from forgetfulness of swarup. Actual Christians are actual Vaisnavas, because there is no differences. There may be slight variations in depictions of rasa, but this is a deep subject. Lord Jesus taught of servitude and friendship, with a small tinge of parental rasa, whereas the Gaudiya Vaisnava gives deeper information to invoke madurya rasa, but all such rasas are fully transcendental, outside the understanding of the religionists.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

Even in this material world there is the reflection of these rasas. Srila Rupa Goswami took his rasa theology from Bharat Maharajas theatrical exposition. So when a soul turns towards Godhead it is not surprising the first glimmers of rasa begin to manifest.

[stonehearted]

Guest: "Even in this material world there is the reflection of these rasas."

Well, a distorted reflection.

 

G: "rila Rupa Goswami took his rasa theology from Bharat Maharajas theatrical exposition."

You probably mean Bharata Muni.

[Guest guest]

Clear and concise. Vaisnavism being transcendental to religion is a precise understanding that can't be lost without losing the heart of all that Srila Prabhupada taught.

[Guest guest]

thx for the additional viewpoints and comments.

[Guest guest]

They say the Kazi became a Vaishnava and gave up meat after meeting Mahaprabhu. He discontinued his indulgence in the sin of meat eating. But if a person were to engage in sinful activity with the belief that by chanting "Krishna" they will be freed of the reactions and karma, they are deluded.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaj's chosen successor, Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj, wrote in his poem SRI DASA-VIDHA NAMAPARADHA (The Ten Offences to the Holy Name):

 

name sarvva-papa-ksaya sarvva-sastre kaya sara-dina papa kari sei bharasaya -

emata durbbuddhi yara sei aparadhi maya-pravañcita, duhkha bhuñje niravadhi

 

TRANSLATION:

All the scriptures say the Name can destroy all sin. But those who spend their time making sins believing their chanting will save them - they are offenders! Deceived by illusion, perpetually they suffer.

 

http://www.vaisnava.com/sgm_nama.html

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

Possibly the greatest Max post of all time. So clear and powerful. This is your true profession, Mahaksadasa. Sing on.

 

Thank you

 

[Guest guest]

We have the story of mgrari the hunter, who had the fortune of meeting Srila Narada Muni. Narada Muni gave him instructions that verify the gradual purifying process of sadhana bhakti.

 

Narada did not tell mgrari to quit hunting, because this was a cultural practice which cannot be artificially renounced. Instead, he gave mgrari a positive process involving changing his hunting technique to ensure that the animal was instantly killed. (Mgrari was a trapper, meaning he set traps which snared his prey, causing a very slow death.) Along with this alteration of cultural practice, the positive practice of worshipping Tulasi was given, and the hunter was fully cured in due course of time. The fullness of krsna consciousness replaced the bad cultural habits, and grew until mgrari is now known as the most peaceful person, unwilling to even step on ants.

 

Srila Prabhupada emphasized the killing of cows, While he requires complete abstainance from all meat eating as a condition for initiation, it may be best if we preach the importance and spiritual significance of cows. Along with that, a preacher of the bhakti culture gives positive practice of Harinam Samkirtana. A preacher even a good, fixed up one, cannot purify anyone. But the holy names of the Supreme Lord relieves one of all bad habits in due course of time. The first stage of bhakti is called the kanistha adhikari stage, where one may still be very offensive, and not very careful at all. But with a little faith in the spiritual master, the sweetness of the process itself becomes apparent in that old habits die quickly.

 

It is not the eating of meat that dooms the false christian, rather it is the dishonesty that enables them to sin on the strength of the sacrifice of their guru. They require a blood feast on the body of Lord Jesus Christ while making no reciprocal endeavor on their own. Meat eating is a habit that can be cured rather easily because even the materialist is aware of the disease that follows, mad cow, ecoli, colorectal cancers, etc. To be a vegetarian is still violence because one slices the throat of the head of lettuce if he eats for enjoyment of the tongue.

 

All the christian needs, and is verified by Srila Prabbhupada, is to FOLLOW lord Jesus Christ. His method is detailed in the Lords prayer. On who follows the message of the lords prayer will surely become fully purified and go back home, back ti the Father who sent His son to deliver us from our plight. But they do not follow. Srila Prabhupada only criticizes those who say they are christians but do not follow Him.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

 

It is not the eating of meat that dooms....it is sin on the strength of the sacrifice of their guru..........To be a vegetarian is still violence...

 

 

The spiritual regress of X karma is Y amount. The spiritual regress of P karma is Q amount. Eventually all who have approached the Ocean of Mercy Sri Hari, even offenders, are led directly to him, though with delays proportionate to the reaction of negative karma.

 

The purpose of starting this thread was to get an accurate perspective on mleccha dharma, for what it is according to the Acaryas.

 

 

On who follows the message of the lords prayer will surely become fully purified and go back home, back ti the Father who sent His son to deliver us from our plight.

 

 

dharmam tu saksad bhagavat pranitam

 

Following authorized processes given by Bhagavan will of course give liberation with him. Bhagavan Vishnu is so merciful he gives some form of Dharma even to Mlecchas who have transgressed his laws more than anyone else. The processes in these Dharmas suited for time and circumstance, of course containing elements of Sanatan Dharma (else wouldn't be authorized), though not on the same level as Sanatan Dharma, do of course gradually lead directly to Sri Bhagavan Vishnu.

 

By Bhagavan's mercy Mlecchas, Mayavadis and even the greatest violaters of all, Vaishnava Aparadhis gradually reach him personally. As confirmed by HDG Srila Prabhupada.

[Guest guest]

 

On who follows the message of the lords prayer will surely become fully purified and go back home, back ti the Father who sent His son to deliver us from our plight

 

 

The Vaisnava viewpoint is, in the Spiritual World there is no concept of God as father, and there is no >return< to home for baddha jivas as they were never there. In spite of the inaccuracy of these 2 concepts from mleccha dharma, again Sri Hari, the Father if you will, is still achieved.

[Guest guest]

Guest "The Vaisnava viewpoint is, in the Spiritual World there is no concept of God as father, and there is no >return< to home for baddha jivas as they were never there. In spite of the inaccuracy of these 2 concepts from mleccha dharma, again Sri Hari, the Father if you will, is still achieved."

 

mahaksadasa: In the interest of accuracy, I accept the position of Srila Prabhupada, who does note our constitutional position as servants of the supreme lord. This idea that some living entities, the eternally conditioned, if you will, are somehow independent and never in their original constitutional position, is not verified by my guru maharaja. His exact teachings are "somehow or other, we have forgotten, due to contact with the material energy". His whole mission is to bring us home, "Back to Godhead". Back to Godhead means returning, no matter how one may try to state thatt there are some who were "never there". One does not go back if one was never there. And if one accepts "nitya baddha" as being eternally conditioned, eternal meaning absolute, then one must surmise, that included in "never being there" also means no hope of ever going there. This is never the philosophy of Vaisnavas, it is more the philosophy of psuedo christians that like to damn some foreigners forever to prevent them in some kind of sectarian fervor.

 

Also in concern for accuracy, the rasa of Servitude is acceptance of the Supreme Lord as Father, Master, Life Giver, and is fully concurrant with Srila Rupa Goswamis teachings on the subject. Also in concern for accuracy, where does this oxymoron "mleccha dharma" come from. Not from shastra nor guru. Mleccha means those without connection to dharma, outside the prinicple of eternal function of the living entity. I do not accept "dharma" as a word synonomous with "religion", as explained in my above posting. I do accept the concept of a religion of atheism, so I will accept the religion of mlecchas, but there is no dharma involved. Krsna never told Arjuna to give up all dharma, in fact, Bhagavad Gita reminds Arjuna of the fact that his Ksatriya Dharma is also his sanatana dharma, as Karma Yoga is fully acceptable as spiritual practice.

 

Finally, Krsna is never "achieved". Mother Yasoda is not successful in tying Krsna up, Krsna allows Yasoda, due to affection we cannot understand, to possess Him by the ties of her devotion. Thus, there is no possibility for the jiva to achieve anything, this is bogus idea, and is called an ascending path, not acceptable to the Vaisnava at all. The Vaisnava depends of Krsna coming to him, causelessly, descending.

 

Hare Krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[Guest guest]

quote:

The Vaisnava viewpoint is, in the Spiritual World there is no concept of God as father, and there is no >return< to home for baddha jivas as they were never there. In spite of the inaccuracy of these 2 concepts from mleccha dharma, again Sri Hari, the Father if you will, is still achieved.

--------------

 

God is seen as "the Father" by some eternal residents of the spiritual world. The sons of Krishna such as Samba are eternally existing in nitya-Dwaraka in the spiritual world. If a jiva soul has an inherent desire to attain the place of a "son of God" in the spiritual world then he can attain that role in Vaikuntha.

 

quote: "there is no >return< to home for baddha jivas as they were never there".

----------

Yes, we jiva souls were never there. But when a soul enters the spiritual world they forget that they were ever in martya-loka (the material world). The liberated souls consequently will have the feeling "This place (Vraja, or Nabadwip, or Dwaraka) is my home and life in this home-world is all I know about and all I remember".

 

The jiva souls originate from the tatastha shakti of Bhagavan. In Brahma Samhita we read:

The innumerable jivas as spiritual particles emanating from the oversoul in the form of pencils of rays of effulgence, have no relation with the mundane world when they come to know themselves to be the eternal servants of the Supreme Lord. They are then incorporated into the realm of Vaikuntha. But when they desire to lord it over Maya, forgetting their real identity. the egotistic principle Sambhu entering into their entities makes them identify themselves as separated enjoyers of mundane entities. Hence Sambhu is the primary principle of the egotistic mundane universe and of perverted egotism in jivas that identifies itself with their limited material bodies.

 

These jiva souls are purely spiritual beings (Brahman) but they can fall from the light of Brahman, the spiritual world if you will, and become engrossed in material life. According to some misguided individuals, the jiva soul is supposed to have been immersed in samsara eternally, and in the view of these misguided individuals it is wrong to say that the jiva soul originates in the spiritual existence, or in the spiritual world. But in the discussion between Haridas Thakur and Sri Chaitanya in (CC Antya 3), Haridas Thakur states that the Lord may awaken souls who are in what is called the "suksma-jiva" state (sayujya mukti) and engage them in activities in the physical universe.

 

CC Antya 3.78-79: Haridasa said, "My Lord, as long as You are situated within the material world, You will send all the souls who hear your Krishna kirtan to the spiritual sky - all the developed moving and nonmoving living entities in different species. Then again, when the universe is emptied of all souls, You will awaken the living entities who are not yet developed and engage them in activities.

 

In this suksma-jiva state the jiva is not engaged in material life (samsara), and in fact any jiva can (by his own effort) attain realization of himself as Brahman and return to his original liberated (suksma-jiva) state. However there are some individuals in that suksma-jiva state who, exisiting in that original state of Brahman effulgence, inherently feel a desire to engage in Bhakti. Those souls will emerge from Brahman in their eternally existing spiritual body and go forward towards the gates of Vaikuntha, just as in the example of the four Kumaras.

 

In this regard, there are the following quotes from Srila Sanatan Goswami's book Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam:

 

In the commentary to verse 2.2186 Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam, Srila Sanatan Gosvami quotes Shankaracarya's verse, "mukta api lilaya vigraham kritva bhagavantam bhajanta", which he translated as "Even the liberated assume a form and worship the Lord in his pastimes". Further, Srila Sanatan Gosvami quotes Srimad Bhagavatam 6.14.5 "muktanam api siddhanam narayana parayana", that is, "The liberated and perfected souls are engaged in Narayan's service." Srila Sanatan Gosvami then asks himself: 'If liberated souls didn’t have forms then how could they engage in the Lord's service? The answer: "Bhagavati layam praptasyapi nri dehasya mahamuneh punar narayana rupena pradurbhavah". Even those who have merged into the Lord have dormant human forms.

 

In verse 2.2.207 in his commentary to Brhad Bhagatamrtam, Sri Sanatana Goswami wrote:

O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Narayana, or Krishna. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare. Impersonalists generally imagine themselves perfect and liberated, and among them a very few may actually attain impersonal liberation. But those rare souls, like all others, are eternal servants of Hari, the all attractive Lord. Out of millions of such rare liberated impersonalists, one very fortunate soul may realize this natural fact. Since intelligence is dormant in the "merged" soul, it can be reawakened. Even the liberated souls who have merged into the formless divine light of the spiritual sky retain their eternal spiritual bodies, complete with spiritual mind and senses. Nothing, not even liberation, can ever deprive a jiva of these assets. Thus when a liberated soul gains the favor of the Supreme Lord's personal energy, his spiritual body and senses are reawakened for hearing and chanting the glories of Lord Hari and acting in other ways for the Lord's pleasure.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I note your accuracy in representing siddhanta, shashtras and Acaryas is greater than mine. I could provide more words from the Acaryas and shastras to support 'my' misguided views but that would be an inaccurate representation. No more wasting of any one's time with 'inaccuracy' for me.

[Guest guest]

BG 9.17: I am the father of this universe, the mother, the support and the grandsire.

 

BG 11.43: You are the father of this complete cosmic manifestation, of the moving and the nonmoving. You are its worshipable chief, the supreme spiritual master. No one is equal to You, nor can anyone be one with You. How then could there be anyone greater than You within the three worlds, O Lord of immeasurable power?

 

BG 14.4: It should be understood that all species of life, O son of Kunti, are made possible by birth in this material nature, and that I am the seed-giving father.

 

[Guest guest]

The supreme father Krishna! I could use words of the Acaryas already cited in the thread to support 'inaccuracy' but no point, they're inaccurate. There's no interest for that here.

 

Jivas can approach god as the father in the spiritual world. Confirmed in Nectar of Devotion and Shrimad Bhagavad Gita, eh?

 

There are 2 views here both using Acarya and shastra, one accurate the other not. No use wasting time with 'inaccuracy'. Vaisnavas are interested in reality.