question

[Guest guest]

I am confused on something. Well almost everything actually /images/graemlins/smile.gif but my question is on just one point.

 

While listening to different groups all presenting themselves as Gaudiya Vaisnavas I seem to be hearing some different conceptions on the origin of the soul. I know this is a difficult question to answer in a forum so my purpose is not to rehash the argument here. I only want to know what sections believe what or if the differences I hear is just in my hearing.

 

Some have the soul originating from the spiritual side (differences aside) while iut seems others are more like Christians and Muslims in that they have the jiva starting from the material side and working it's way up from the lowest form to the spiritual world.

 

1st am I correct there arethese different conceptions and

 

2nd if true could you please tell me which teachers are teaching the soul originting in matter doctrine.

 

Thank you

Confused

[Guest guest]

regardless of what devotees fight what.........the most foremost vedic scholar and archrya of the present age is A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada........read bhagavad gita as it is and all your answers will be provided.

 

http://www.iskcon.com/books/bg/BhagavadGita.html

 

J.S das

[Guest guest]

The advice was to deal with wherever you are now [per Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada]. And to wait until you have a better feel for the transcendence, at which time the answer will be more meaningful and apparent [per Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura].

 

They all agree that the jiva begins between the material and spiritual energies, in the marginal potency.

 

[Guest guest]

 

They all agree that the jiva begins between the material and spiritual energies, in the marginal potency.

 

 

I accept that I am marginal by nature that is not the problem. Are you aware that some GV's say we have been eternally bound to the wheel of birth and death? It is the source of that thought that I wish to trace.

 

[Airicky]

Don't waste your time trying to figure out how you got here. Spend your time working on how to get out and not come back.

 

Chant!

[Guest guest]

The soul of any person, any jiva, is Brahman, which sat-chit-ananda.

 

In his Govinda Bhasya commentary to Vedanta Sutra, Sri Baladev Vidyabhusan quotes the following verse from the Padma Purana which states that the jiva soul is sat-chit-ananda:

anur nityo vyapti-silas cid-anandatmakas tatha

aham artho 'vyayah saksi bhinna-rupah Sanatanh

"The soul is atomic, eternal, is present by consciousness everywhere in the material body, is by nature full of spiritual bliss and knowledge, has a sense of individual identity, is unchanging, is a witness within the body, and is different from the Supreme."

 

The jiva souls originate from the effulgence of Brahman, the light that shines from the body of Krishna. In Brahma Samhita we read:

The innumerable jivas as spiritual particles emanating from the oversoul in the form of pencils of rays of effulgence, have no relation with the mundane world when they come to know themselves to be the eternal servants of the Supreme Lord. They are then incorporated into the realm of Vaikuntha. But when they desire to lord it over Maya, forgetting their real identity. the egotistic principle Sambhu entering into their entities makes them identify themselves as separated enjoyers of mundane entities. Hence Sambhu is the primary principle of the egotistic mundane universe and of perverted egotism in jivas that identifies itself with their limited material bodies.

 

Some persons are of the opinion that the jiva has been in samsara (material existence) eternally. But in the discussion between Haridas Thakur and Sri Chaitanya in (CC Antya 3), Haridas Thakur states that the Lord may awaken souls who are in what is called the "suksma-jiva" state (sayujya mukti) and engage them in activities in the physical universe.

 

CC Antya 3.78-79: Haridasa said, "My Lord, as long as You are situated within the material world, You will send all the souls who hear your Krishna kirtan to the spiritual sky - all the developed moving and nonmoving living entities in different species. Then again, when the universe is emptied of all souls, You will awaken the living entities who are not yet developed and engage them in activities.

 

In this suksma-jiva state the jiva is not engaged in material life (samsara). In fact any jiva can (by his own effort) attain realization of himself as Brahman and return to his original liberated (suksma-jiva) state. However there are some individuals in that suksma-jiva state who, exisiting in that original state of Brahman effulgence, inherently feel a desire to engage in Bhakti. Those souls will emerge from Brahman in their eternally existing spiritual body and go forward towards the gates of Vaikuntha, just as in the example of the four Kumaras.

 

In this regard, there are the following quotes from Srila Sanatan Goswami's book Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam:

In the commentary to verse 2.2186 Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam, Srila Sanatan Gosvami quotes Shankaracarya's verse, "mukta api lilaya vigraham kritva bhagavantam bhajanta", which he translated as "Even the liberated assume a form and worship the Lord in his pastimes". Further, Srila Sanatan Gosvami quotes Srimad Bhagavatam 6.14.5 "muktanam api siddhanam narayana parayana", that is, "The liberated and perfected souls are engaged in Narayan's service." Srila Sanatan Gosvami then asks himself: 'If liberated souls didn’t have forms then how could they engage in the Lord's service? The answer: "Bhagavati layam praptasyapi nri dehasya mahamuneh punar narayana rupena pradurbhavah". Even those who have merged into the Lord have dormant human forms.

 

In verse 2.2.207 in his commentary to Brhad Bhagatamrtam, Sri Sanatana Goswami wrote:

O great sage, among many millions who are liberated and perfect in knowledge of liberation, one may be a devotee of Lord Narayana, or Krishna. Such devotees, who are fully peaceful, are extremely rare. Impersonalists generally imagine themselves perfect and liberated, and among them a very few may actually attain impersonal liberation. But those rare souls, like all others, are eternal servants of Hari, the all attractive Lord. Out of millions of such rare liberated impersonalists, one very fortunate soul may realize this natural fact. Since intelligence is dormant in the "merged" soul, it can be reawakened. Even the liberated souls who have merged into the formless divine light of the spiritual sky retain their eternal spiritual bodies, complete with spiritual mind and senses. Nothing, not even liberation, can ever deprive a jiva of these assets. Thus when a liberated soul gains the favor of the Supreme Lord's personal energy, his spiritual body and senses are reawakened for hearing and chanting the glories of Lord Hari and acting in other ways for the Lord's pleasure.

[Guest guest]

That is not quite the question. I am trying to differentiate between those vaisnavas that acknowledge a spiritual origin for the jivas and those that claim eternally bound means never starting in the Brahman or Goloka or whatever but actually having been bound for eternity in birth and death.

[Guest guest]

There are basically two schools of thought on this: either we fell directly from Krsna's pastimes, or we fell from (or originated from) the Brahmajyoti or tatashta sakti. I don't know of anyone who believes that we originated in the material world, despite the fact that we are nitya-baddha. Iskcon preaches that we fell directly from Goloka, as do the ritviks and other offshoots from Iskcon. Everyone else that I know of preaches that it is not possible to fall from Goloka. Even Srila Prabhupada has stated this in his books, but because of what he stated earlier in his mission in some of his letters, (time and circumstance), Iskcon still preaches the "fall" philosophy.

 

You can probably do a google search with key words such as "jiva, jiva-tattva, fall, no fall, Vaikuntha, Krsna, brahmajyoti" and similar words and find numerous articles written on the subject, which should help you to identify which mission (and which Vaishnavas) preach which philosophy on jiva-tattva.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Quotes from -Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada-

Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.9.1, Mayapur, February 8, 1976

But those who are devotees, they are allowed to enter into the planet, Vaikuntha planet or Goloka Vrindavana planet. In this way one gets his original position. But if we do not take to bhakti, then we may enter into the Brahman effulgence, but there is chance of falling down. Aruhya kricchrena param padam tatah patanty adho ’nadrita-yusmad-anghrayah [sB 10.2.32]. So those who are impersonalist, they may enter into the spiritual kingdom. That is called param padam. Padam padam yad vipadam na tesham. But there is also chance of fall down. Aruhya kricchrena. After severe austerities and penances one can enter into the Brahman effulgence. But unless one gets information of the param padam—samasrita ye pada pallava plavam—there is chance of falling down. In the material world there is bhutva bhutva praliyate. But in spiritual also, if you enter into the spiritual kingdom, from there also... Even sometimes it so happens. Of course, that is by God’s desire. Just like Jaya-Vijaya. They were personal associates. But the explanation is Krishna wanted that “They should go..., the Hiranyakasipu..., these two, Jaya-Vijaya, they should go to the material world, and I must fight with them.” Because that fighting, to become angry, that tendency is there. Where He will exhibit? In the Vaikuntha there is no chance of exhibiting this anger and fighting. That is not possible. Therefore He induces His devotee to “Go to the material world and become My enemy, and I shall fight. I shall become angry,” because in the Vaikuntha, spiritual kingdom, there is no chance. Everyone is serving; everyone is friendly. Some relation... Where is the question of fighting? But fighting spirit is there; anger is there. Where He shall exhibit? And therefore Krishna incarnates, He becomes angry, and a devotee becomes enemy, and this is Krishna-lila, nitya-lila. It is going on.

 

Letter to: Rupanuga, Los Angeles, 24 July, 1969

Regarding your question, ``what is the difference between the spirit souls comprising the Brahmajyoti and the spirit souls here in Maya?'', in the Brahmajyoti the spirit souls on account of their impersonal views are devoid of a body, exactly like here in Maya there are ghosts who are devoid of any gross bodies. The ghost being devoid of a body, he suffers terribly because he is unable to satisfy his senses. The spirit souls in the Brahmajyoti, although they have no desire for sense gratification, still they feel inconvenience like the ghost, and they fall down again in the Maya's atmosphere and develop a material body. In the Bhagavat therefore it is said that persons who are impersonalists and do not develop the dormant devotional attitude, their intelligence is not pure, because for want of a spiritual body, they come down again to the material world. In the Bhagavad-gita it is clearly said by the Lord that the only way of not coming back to the material world is to be promoted to the spiritual planets. For the impersonalists there is no such assurance of not falling down in the whole Vedic literature. The conclusion is that without developing the spiritual body and without being situated on one of the spiritual planets, the so-called liberation is also illusion, or it is not complete. A spirit soul who falls down from the Brahmajyoti to the Kingdom of Maya may have a chance of associating with a pure devotee, and then he may be elevated to the spiritual planets of Vaikuntha or to Goloka Vrindaban. From the Brahmajyoti there is no direct promotion to the spiritual planets, and it is clearly stated in the Bhagavatam that such souls fall down: patanty adha.

 

Srila Bhakti Rakshaka Sridhara Maharaja

Origin of the Jiva- An excerpt from a talk by Srila Sridhar Maharaja. http://bvml.mayaglyphs.net/audio/index.html

[Lecture talks about the Tatastha shakti and Nitya-siddha devotees]

 

 

Couldn't find quotes in Vedabase that say we fell from Goloka. Anybody have them?

[Guest guest]

Sometimes the term gets used, "There are two kinds of jiva souls, nitya-baddha and nitya-siddha." I believe a more correct understanding is not two kinds of jivas but jivas in two differnt conditions liberated and bound.

 

I know someone was arguing this here sometime ago. They may have been in Ramanuja's line and I mistook them for Gaudiyas.

 

Does Ramanuja Acarya teach like that?

[Guest guest]

Finally this great debate has become civil and uplifting. Thank you.

 

That audio clip from Srila Sridhara Swami Maharaja really assembles all the points in humble perspective. We are so fortunate to have such great association with such exalted personalities even after they are in the world no longer.

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

quote:

That is not quite the question. I am trying to differentiate between those vaisnavas that acknowledge a spiritual origin for the jivas and those that claim eternally bound means never starting in the Brahman or Goloka or whatever but actually having been bound for eternity in birth and death.

--------------

 

This issue is dealt with in the quotes above.

 

Brahma Samhita:

The innumerable jivas as spiritual particles emanating from the oversoul in the form of pencils of rays of effulgence, have no relation with the mundane world when they come to know themselves to be the eternal servants of the Supreme Lord. They are then incorporated into the realm of Vaikuntha. But when they desire to lord it over Maya, forgetting their real identity. the egotistic principle Sambhu entering into their entities makes them identify themselves as separated enjoyers of mundane entities. Hence Sambhu is the primary principle of the egotistic mundane universe and of perverted egotism in jivas that identifies itself with their limited material bodies.

 

 

[Guest guest]

 

One concept is that it resembles a circle, while the other suggests that it looks like a triangle.

 

Both are correct, since in truth we are trying to describe a cone. Both concepts from two vantage points are required to describe the phenomenom.

 

I have listened to that audio file for several hours tonight and each time find something new, some more depth. Perhaps that is your answer.

 

I know it is frustrating not to be able to put it in all a few good words or paragraphs. Thinking we can, that is our problem. We need the humility found in Srila Sridhara's voice - not in the pompous student's voice. After all, this is God. Right?

 

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

Sridhara Maharaja He says it is difficult point. And he says 'it is show of coming'- [Audio Lecture].

 

SB 3.16.27 PURPORT

The Lord stated that the punishment inflicted by the sages upon the doorkeepers Jaya and Vijaya was conceived by the Lord Himself. Without the Lord's sanction, nothing can happen. It is to be understood that there was a plan in the cursing of the Lord's devotees in Vaikuëöha, and His plan is explained by many stalwart authorities. The Lord sometimes desires to fight. The fighting spirit also exists in the Supreme Lord, otherwise how could fighting be manifested at all? Because the Lord is the source of everything, anger and fighting are also inherent in His personality. When He desires to fight with someone, He has to find an enemy, but in the Vaikuëöha world there is no enemy because everyone is engaged fully in His service. Therefore He sometimes comes to the material world as an incarnation in order to manifest His fighting spirit.

In Bhagavad-gétä (4.8) also it is said that the Lord appears just to give protection to the devotees and to annihilate the nondevotees. The nondevotees are found in the material world, not in the spiritual world; therefore, when the Lord wants to fight, He has to come to this world. But who will fight with the Supreme Lord? No one is able to fight with Him! Therefore, because the Lord's pastimes in the material world are always performed with His associates, not with others, He has to find some devotee who will play the part of an enemy. In Bhagavad-gétä the Lord says to Arjuna, "My dear Arjuna, both you and I have appeared many, many times in this material world, but you have forgotten, whereas I remember." Thus Jaya and Vijaya were selected by the Lord to fight with Him in the material world, and that was the reason the sages came to see Him and accidentally the doorkeepers were cursed. It was the Lord's desire to send them to the material world, not perpetually, but for some time. Therefore, just as on a theatrical stage someone takes the part of enemy to the proprietor of the stage, although the play is for a short time and there is no permanent enmity between the servant and the proprietor, so the sura janas (devotees) were cursed by the sages to go to the asura jana, or atheistic families. That a devotee should come into an atheistic family is surprising, but it is simply a show. After finishing their mock fighting, both the devotee and the Lord are again associated in the spiritual planets. That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuëöha planet, for it is the eternal abode. But sometimes, as the Lord desires, devotees come into this material world as preachers or as atheists. In each case we must understand that there is a plan of the Lord. Lord Buddha, for example, was an incarnation, yet he preached atheism: "There is no God." But actually there was a plan behind this, as explained in the Bhägavatam.

__

[Guest guest]

Haribol Pankaja prabhu. Thanks for the plug of my site. I've just uploaded the transcript of Srila Sridhara Maharaja's Jiva Issue lecture here.

 

 

 

I am working on getting the Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Goswami Maharaja audio files uploaded and linked to his new section in our multimedia room. It should be finished soon at http://bvml.mayaglyphs.net/audio/SBVPGM/. Thanks for the access to this nectar!

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Dandavats, AGTSP!

 

I have been going to www.bvml.org so I thought you wanted those lectures, now you have them.! And so does the entire Vaishnava Community. We will all be blessed by your service. Thankyou to Jagadish Prabhu for giving them to me. Then I gave to you, you give to the world. Credit is to you.

 

Check out the Music on my downloadpage: DlPage Birth and Death. Transmigration of the soul. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Guest guest]

for my websites and am in the process of uploading video and audio files of current acaryas. I did not have space for the files until now. I am pretty busy with material business since it is wintertime, but am trying to spend an hour or two daily on upgrading the library. I'll check out the music this week.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

Gurudeva Vyada-puja is on 19th January 2006 so offer that to Him.

 

Must be costing so much. Thankyou, for providing. Jaya Prabhupada, Jaya BV Puri Maharaja! I will send a link to Jagadish Prabhu at www.srilapurimaharaja.org Gaura hari!