Why did Bhaktisar Maharaj leave

[Guest guest]

The majority of Narayana Maharaja follower have one to three decades of ISKCON experience. Certainly they have brought much of the good, bad and in between with them.

[stonehearted]

Guest: "Can i know more about the Maharaja, i heard he is very severe."

 

I've spent some time with Ashram Maharaja and found him quite pleasant.

[Guest guest]

What happened to Sripad BV Aranya Maharaj, please? A friend of mine hosted him one in his home a few years ago (an old Prabhupada disciple), and commented that he felt Sripad was too passionate for his liking and thought he was pushy towards himself and other Prabhupada disciple there who weren't interested in Narayana Maharaj. Mind you, that was his own opinion, but he goes back a long long way and is very sweet and mellow, yet cent per cent faithful to Srila Prabhupada; so I honor his views. No criticism intended here, just an honest inquiry. Thank you.

[Guest guest]

Who is this Ashram Maharaja you are speaking about? Don't you mean Aranaya, Babhru Prabhu?

[stonehearted]

No, I'm speaking about Ashram Maharaja, who is apparently managing Narayana Maharaja's center in Birmingham. He was a disciple of Gour-Govinda Maharaja who took sannyasa from Narayana Maharaja. Seemed like a nice guy to me.

[stonehearted]

Guest: "What happened to Sripad BV Aranya Maharaj, please?"

 

I can't say, exactly. He and Bhaktisar Maharaja left Narayana Maharaja's sanga at the same time, expressing the same concerns. Last I heard, he married and is preachiing somewhere in eastern Europe. (I thought I had already said this.) I don't know more than that.

 

Yes, he has a reputation for being pushy, among other things. When I met with him and Bhaktisar Maharaja this last June, I was delighted to find that Aranya Maharaja seemed to have found more interesting ways to use his intelligence than beating up those who didn't share his faith in Narayana Maharaja.

 

Lotta guests here.

[Guest guest]

I find it amazing that this discussion is taking place on Audarya. I have noticed in the past that posts mentioning Srila Narayana Maharaja have suddenly disappeared as if into some abyss. I hope it's not my imagination. Perhaps I am just getting old. One disciple of Srila Prabhupada informed me that after he had heard Bhakti Sar Maharaja's explanation as to why he left the Sanga, he asked Srila Narayana Maharaja about it. Srila Narayana Maharaja's reply was that, "It is best not to talk about these things or even think about them, best to put it out of your mind completely". It seems that the gist is that some thoughts are not at all devotional and that they are are either aparadhic or tending in that direction. Of course, Krsna Consciousness means to thing devotional thoughts about Krsna and his devotees.

[Guest guest]

Yes, it's true. Many of Srila Narayan Maharaj's Indian as well as non-Iskcon indoctrinated non-Indian disciples attest to the gradual "iskconization" of the sanga once alot of Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaj's disciples appeared on the scene in their "Prabhupada! Prabhupada!" way. Now BBT is quoted in SNM's books and Srila Swami Maharaj is referred to as "Prabhupada" and quoted as if he is the guru of all and sundry!

 

They seem bent on making it well known that Srila Swami Maharaj and Srila Narayan Maharaj are one and the same with no differences. Is that possible between any two individuals?

 

Bhaktisar Maharaj was one of those types and rather than sit down and chant one or two lakhs of Names he was running around trying to create organizations within the sanga all in the name of preaching. Why? This is all he has known of bhakti in the past 30 years.

 

For anyone joining SNM's sanga - stay as close as you can to the Indian devottees or the non-Iskcon affiliated western devottees.

 

[Vanguard]

 

For anyone joining SNM's sanga - stay as close as you can to the Indian devottees or the non-Iskcon affiliated western devottees.

Do you believe that SNM's Indian devotee sanga has no idea what the western devotees are doing? Do you believe SNM himself is being held hostage by his own right hand of the organization? He's not, nor has ever ever been, as helpless as this chain of reasoning would paint him out to be.

For better or for worse, SNM and his dedicated followers know perfectly well what's going on (maybe not the GVS Indian devotee contingent that remains loyal to Srila BV Vaman Maharaj and not so much to SNM, but that defeats the point of joining SNM's sanga doesn't it?). The situation is under SNM's control. He is consenting to everything. Whether that situation is good, bad, good for bhakti or not, I wont dare touch that territory.

If anyone has a problem with SNM's sanga, then they have a problem with SNM himself. It's inconceivable that poor persecuted SNM is being held hostage by ex-ISKCON fanatics. It's probably best to find a camp that one can at least not feel offended by.

[Guest guest]

"If anyone has a problem with SNM's sanga, then they have a problem with SNM himself. It's inconceivable that poor persecuted SNM is being held hostage by ex-ISKCON fanatics. It's probably best to find a camp that one can at least not feel offended by."

 

I find this to be rather offensive. You obviously have a strong opinion, but why not phrase it in a gentlemenly-like Vaishnava-like manner?

 

No one has suggested that Srila Narayana Maharaja is being "held hostage" or is being "persecuted." You are grasping at straws.

 

I don't know how many disciples Srila Maharaja has, but it numbers in the thousands. As in any large sanga, there will be some who go against the grain; who do not fully understand the desire and mood of the Acarya. When Srila Prabhupada was present, there were numerous problems, issues, and abuses which existed within his organization. He could not be everywhere at once, to put out every fire, however large or small, which is why he delegated management duties to GBC men and Temple Presidents. And even then, it didn't always work. He cautioned his leading disciples about the dangers of beaurocracy, but not everyone listened. As a wise man once said: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."

 

Please...Think about what you're saying. Your post did nothing to foster harmony amongst the Vaishnava community. I'm not suggesting that you can't speak your mind. Perhaps rephrase your words so that we get the gist of your view, without anyone feeling that they unnecessarily stumbled onto an aparadha. (It's just as harmful to hear it as it is to speak it.)

 

Bhakta Tom

[Guest guest]

If one is uninformed, it is generally best to err on the side of caution. Ask questions if need be, otherwise, as they say: "silence is golden."

 

Management is probably the least of Srila Maharaja's concerns at this time. His health has not been good (he was recently hospitalized), yet he still gives morning and/or evening classes as often as possible. He devotes much of his time translating books from our Acaryas. I remember Srila Prabhupada in his last few manifest years, requesting his disciples to free him from management so that he could translate, and that we should address our questions and concerns to local or regional authorities. I suppose it's a trade-off in a sense, but I highly suspect that in the long run, most devotees are grateful to have been blessed with the legacy of his divine books.

 

Bhakta Tom

[Yofu]

"If anyone has a problem with SNM's sanga, then they have a problem with SNM himself."

<O:p</O:p

The above comment is rather silly and dangerous thinking, in my opinion. I have a problem with my Gurudeva's sanga, but I don't have a problem with my Gurudeva. My Gurudeva said in a class in Wales</ST1:p:

<O:p</O:p

"If an institution interfers with your bhakti, then burn the institution down".

This is great advice for those devotees, who like me, don't like institutionalised Gaudiya Vaisnavaism.

<O:p</O:p

Since 1996, when my Gurudeva first came to Western countries, there has been an "Iskconisation" in his institution. I would invite devotees to look at the fact that everyone who has a "management role" within my Gurudeva's institution is ex-Iskcon. There is not a single devotee who comes from an non Iskcon background in a position of importance.

<O:p</O:p

The ex-Iskcon devotees who now manage follow the management style of Iskcon, and one had only to read the history of Iskcon to see that this style doesn't work which is one of the major reasons for splits within the Iskcon

organisation. In fairness to Iskcon, it is learning from their past mistakes.

<O:p</O:p

I've been a follower of Srila BV Narayana Maharaja from before he started coming west, and remember what it was like before his sanga became Iskcon. II. It was very different.

<O:p</O:p

Many of the the mistakes that happened in Iskcon are happening again and I am confident that after my Gurudeva leaves that there will be much in fighting just as there has been in Iskcon. Devotion to instiutions is not bhakti. The Guru is not the institution, or is the instiution the Guru.

<O:p</O:p

 

<O:p</O:p

I must applaud the Guest who said that we should associate with the Indian devotees, as it is great advice. For those who want to know who these are. They are:

<O:p</O:p

Premananda Prabhu

Uma didi

Sripada BV Bon Maharaja

Sripad BV Tirtha Maharaja

<O:p</O:p

There are more.

<O:p</O:p

One last point, there are a number of western men jockeying for promotion as sannayasis. I find this amusing since Premananda Prabhu who has been with my Gurudeva for over 30 years refuses to accept sannyasa even though he is very qualified.

<O:p</O:p

Just remember some western sannayasis "fell down" recently....here we go again...

[Yofu]

 

"If anyone has a problem with SNM's sanga, then they have a problem with SNM himself."

Lets look at this silly comment from another angle.

Lets say that my Guru starts a new organisation, and as part of this organisation he includes Gurukulas and appoints the teachers himself.

Lets say that over a period of time the children at the Gurukula are abused sexually, physically, and emotionally by their "teachers". If I find fault and ,as a human being, I have a problem with the organisation over the abuse of the children, am I having a problem with my Guru?

Lets remember child abuse did happen in a major western Gaudiya institution. According the quote above being angry at the abuse is showing anger at the founder acarya! This is perverse logic...

[Legioss]

 

I find this to be rather offensive. You obviously have a strong opinion, but why not phrase it in a gentlemenly-like Vaishnava-like manner?

I don't see how he could change the essence of what is said through a simple matter of rephrasing or sugar coating.

 

I must applaud the Guest who said that we should associate with the Indian devotees, as it is great advice.

And I've been informed of Indian followers telling American followers not to stay at the math but go on the world tour instead. It seems everyone is suffering from "Grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome, and they want to blame an entire sanga for problems, and say that only an alternative situation is better.

I've learned that it's all the same diksa, whether it's in Mother Bharata or the 'evil satanic west'. When mahabhagavat is there, it's Vrindavan, apparently. Everyone is brother and sister under the umbrella of the acharya. To discount western bodied people is not only prejudicial, but it places doubt on the potency and intention of your own acharya's diksa and his intents to preach in the west. You as a westerner also give yourself a convenient excuse for constant failure.

 

"If an institution interfers with your bhakti, then burn the institution down".

This is great advice for those devotees, who like me, don't like institutionalised Gaudiya Vaisnavaism.

"All of you who are following this disciplic succession are ISKCON. Don't think that you are not. I am ISKCON. I'm not different from ISKCON" SNM, Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb. 18, 2002 (evening)

 

I've been a follower of Srila BV Narayana Maharaja from before he started coming west, and remember what it was like before his sanga became Iskcon. II. It was very different.

Who appointed these managers? Not in the past year or less, but rather, over the years? This was not an overnight process.

 

Lets say that my Guru starts a new organisation, and as part of this organisation he includes Gurukulas and appoints the teachers himself...

This is an interesting choice of example that you are using. According to SNM's "Did Srila Prabhupada know?" the mahabhagavat knows all about it.

[Yofu]

 

"All of you who are following this disciplic succession are ISKCON. Don't think that you are not. I am ISKCON. I'm not different from ISKCON" SNM, Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb. 18, 2002 (evening)

I don't believe that Srila BV Narayana Maharaja is referring to the literal Iskcon as in the institution but the idea of Iskcon; that being an International Society of Krishna Conciousness. I don't for one minute disagree with the second understanding of Iskcon. In this case all vaisnavas are an Iskcon

When I refer to Iskcon in my previous postings I refer to the legal, corparate Iskcon not the idea. To believe that there isn't a difference between these "Iskcons" is crass.

 

And I've been informed of Indian followers telling American followers not to stay at the math but go on the world tour instead. It seems everyone is suffering from "Grass is always greener on the other side" syndrome, and they want to blame an entire sanga for problems, and say that only an alternative situation is better.

I've learned that it's all the same diksa, whether it's in Mother Bharata or the 'evil satanic west'. When mahabhagavat is there, it's Vrindavan, apparently. Everyone is brother and sister under the umbrella of the acharya. To discount western bodied people is not only prejudicial, but it places doubt on the potency and intention of your own acharya's diksa and his intents to preach in the west. You as a westerner also give yourself a convenient excuse for constant failure.

 

I am not dicounting western bodied devotees as that is forbidden in our philosophy rather I dicount the craziness that surrounds Srila BV Narayana Maharaja's sanga.

I know many Iskcon devotees whose experiences with Srila BV Naryanana Maharaja's followers are not good. Many temples have experienced the overt "Come-to-my-guru" preaching at their programmes by Srila BV Narayana Maharaja's followers. This "preaching" often comes across as personality cultism, and is very rude.

I know many Indian devotees who find many western devotees to be slighty crazy. Please note that I do not say all western devotees. The Indian devotees are not being prejudiced, rather they are correct in their judgements. Maybe that's the reason that they encourage some western devotees to go on the western tours so the the math is not effected.

There is a dangerous philosophy within the western branch of Gaudiya Vaisnavaism, that is:

"My Guru is superman, can do everything, and knows everything"

So if this is what a Guru is, can I ask him which type of computer is best PC or MAC?

Which Car is best, Ford or Toyota?

In some of the conversations with some of my Godbrothers/ Godsisters, they have tended towards fanatism...let's remember that we are dealing with a religion and where there is religion there is often fundamentalism and fanatism....

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[Guest guest]

 

I don't see how he could change the essence of what is said through a simple matter of rephrasing or sugar coating.

It's really not that difficult. Perhaps lose the sarcastic tone along with a couple of demeaning adjectives, and voila. The gist of the message is still there. It's easy if you try. I'm not advocating sugar-coating. I advocated basic Vaishnava respect. And to think about what we're saying. The faulty logic of the criticism this prabhu raised against Srila Narayana Maharaja could just have easily been applied to Srila Prabhupada, and no doubt many (myself included) would have found that to be offensive as well.

[Guest guest]

Vanguard, I never implied that SNM is being held against his will or the wool is being pulled over his eyes. I simply asserted that if one wants to hear direct Krishna katha and bhajan katha, well, the Indian devottees as well as other devottees who have no iskcon affiliation will usually be the ones to go to for that. Many of the iskcon devottees in SNM's sanga have heavy iskcon conditionings and their katha tends to be more book distribution, did humans go to the moon, vedic culture, "Prabhupada said" - oriented. Just a different mood. SSM's (Srila Swami Maharaj, who's disciples refer to him as "Prabhupada") don't seem to understand the following concept; Srila Swami Maharaj is your guru, not neccessarily mine. They tend to think that all gaudiyas everywhere should have the same devotion and dedication to their guru that they have. Just as some SNM's disciples have been accused of this very same mentality and the disciples of SSM in the wider world don't always take to kindly to it, we, the disciples of SNM as well as other gaudiya gurus, do not take to kindly with all this "Prabhupada said" stuff being thrown in front of us. To each their own guru.

[Vanguard]

I just want to say I'm really sorry if I offended anyone (and I do mean anyone). I guess I'm like a lot of other people trying to make sense out of devotee current events, and becoming frustrated in the process. I'd like to retract my posts, with a straw in my mouth if I'm capable of such. I wont post with that tone again. Thanks!

[stonehearted]

 

SSM's (Srila Swami Maharaj, who's disciples refer to him as "Prabhupada") don't seem to understand the following concept; Srila Swami Maharaj is your guru, not neccessarily mine. They tend to think that all gaudiyas everywhere should have the same devotion and dedication to their guru that they have. Just as some SNM's disciples have been accused of this very same mentality and the disciples of SSM in the wider world don't always take to kindly to it, we, the disciples of SNM as well as other gaudiya gurus, do not take to kindly with all this "Prabhupada said" stuff being thrown in front of us. To each their own guru.

That seems like an odd response, considering that a big part of Sripad Narayan Mahraja's campaign, at least in the West, where he spends considerable time, is that Srila Swami Maharaja (our Prabhupada) is his siksa guru and that he's the disciple who is most faithfully carrying on Srila Prabhupada's work. I have heard both him and his disciples make such assertions on several occasions over the years.

 

I'll tell you another thing that's odd. I recently heard one of Narayana Maharaja's sannyasa disciples assert that anyone can preach in the West. Even a frog, he said, who knows a couple of Bhagavad-gita verses is seen as a great sage. I wonder if he even considered how that might sound to those of us for whom Srila Swami Maharaja is not just some historical figure from the past. And I think it especially problematic when so many of his Godbrothers have stated unequivocally that Srila Prabhupada did what no one else could.

 

It seems as though you people have some things to straighten out yourselves.

[Yofu]

I tried to send you a pm... .

[Guest guest]

Stone-hearted, don't get me wrong. I mean no disrespect toward SSM but I just wish his disciples would realize that not all of us feel the same way about him that they do, just as all vaishnavas do not feel about my guru the way that I do. That's all.

[Beggar]

This part the this thread brings up a very important topic, what is Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada’s position in relationship to all non-Indian followers of the line Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur? Since it is clear that practically no one would have known of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu or his Sankirtan Movement the answer is obvious.

Fish says,”Many of the iskcon devotees in SNM's sanga have heavy iskcon conditionings and their katha tends to be more book distribution, did humans go to the moon, vedic culture, "Prabhupada said" - oriented. Just a different mood.” But isn’t this the mission of Srila Narayana Maharaja, to help Srila Prabhupada’s followers and preach in the West by the ordrer of Srila Prabhupada? And isn’t this the essence of his katha that we should stop being so external in our approach and try to understand the internal mood of our guru varga? Fish’s criticism of those with ”heavy iskcon conditionings” is in itself superficial. If we are criticizing sanga siddhi bhakti or mixed devotion and showing how it must be given up for swaupa siddhi bhakti or pure devotion, that’s one thing. But to artificially create a class of persons of those with “heavy iskcon conditionings” and imply that they are to be shunned by sincere persons is reactionary. It is just a reaction to the attitudes of many iskconites that they are the only real followers of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu because their guru is the only real follower of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur. The offenses of others does not justify our offenses. And offenses in the name of pure devotees are paticularly obscene.

[stonehearted]

 

Stone-hearted, don't get me wrong. I mean no disrespect toward SSM but I just wish his disciples would realize that not all of us feel the same way about him that they do, just as all vaishnavas do not feel about my guru the way that I do. That's all.

I didn't mean to imply that I found any disrespect, necessarily. And I understand that those who are not Srila Prabhupada's disciples, as well as those who have never had any connection with ISKCON, to have a different sort of relationship with him than we have. After all, as much as I respect and like SNM, I do not have the same feelings about him as his disciples, or as my Godbrothers and -sisters who have taken shelter of him. And I know that they don't feel the same way about other advanced Vaishnavas from whom I take instruction and advice. However, since Sripad Narayana Maharaja's sanga, in the West, anyway, is based largely on his claim of a special relationship with Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (and I have heard SNM refer to him as "Prabhupada," as well as "your Prabhupada"), it seems odd to hear one of his disciples disparage a sharing of the mood SNM would profess to share. Perhaps there was something about the tone of your post (seems to be a lot of that on this thread) that seemed dissonant.

[Guest guest]

I'm going to back out of this conversation before I have a chance to commit offense, knowingly or unknowingly.

 

My point is just as Stone-hearted stated above that he does not feel the same way about my guru as I do (nor do I expect him to or profess that he should, afterall, he has diksa from somebody else and he may or may not accept my guru as a siksa guru, that is all within his right as an individual). Similarly, I do not feel the same way about his guru that he does, although respect is there. It's all so simple.

[stonehearted]

 

I'm going to back out of this conversation before I have a chance to commit offense, knowingly or unknowingly.

I just don't see any reason to continue it, either. There's nothing for anyone to gain, except trouble. These issues are probably best discussed privately.