Jiva Falls Down- The Conclution

[Guest guest]

 

A lecture by Swami BA Paramadvaiti

Dez. 2005

 

 

It is a very suprising topic. Because the supreme Lord, the personality of Godhead, He can do what ever He wants; He is free to do and on top of it, everything He does is good, it is beneficial. He is the only wellwisher of all living entities. He is not against any single entity, but for Him to exhibit His various pastimes, it takes many different, many delightfull things to happen which in the long run give an incredible blessing to the people in this world.

 

Just like today, we are discussing this pastime here in Vrinda Kunja for the upliftment of our soul. So it is quite obviously an intensive impact, what takes place in such a lila. It is being discussed again and again and you could not say this has been discussed a million times and you can also not say it has been discussed ten million times or hunderd million times. No way that you can imagine how often this topic has been discussed. But what is the very most amazing thing?

 

I will tell you.

 

In this puport Srila Prabhupada says three times within a half page, that a living entitiy can not fall from Vaikuntha, will not fall from Vaikuntha, never falls from Vaikuntha. Even though he says this so clear here, it happend later, that in the movement of my spirutal master – after his departure- interpretations were drawn from a few other indications, completely denying this puport and indirectly declaring that Srila Prabhupada is three times wrong. Three times wrong in the same purport. I mean, you need to have a very amazing brain capacity to accuse your spiritual master and make books about it, clarifying and certifying as sastric evidence, that my guru is three times wrong in the same purport. So this is how it goes.

 

This topic is not only millions of times discussed, but also millions of times misunderstood. To understand or not to understand the Lord, that is purely a question of grace. Logical sequences do not necessarly favour you in this respect. The speculators have not only said that the jiva falls from Vaikuntha, but they are also claiming that jivas fall from Krsnaloka – this means falling from the personal, direct association with the supreme Lord; falling from the nitya-siddha position.

 

This idea is not at all backed up by sastra. Of course, if Krsna wants any of his associates to go somewhere and to do something on His behalf, He would have the free will to do so. We can not say, that Krsna can not do this but in no way we can come up with a theory and try to substantiate it by wild speculations, which claim that every living entity comes from a personal relationship with Krsna in Goloka Vrindavan and fell down to this world due to misbehaviour there. If this is the case, there would be plenty of misbehaviour in the spiritual world, wouldn´t it. Just imagine if amongst the cowhard boys, here and there, the one or the other ends up missing. What would his friends think about: “Oh were is Gopa?” Then the other would say: “You do not know what he did yesterday. Krsna told him to get lost” Their hearts would be crumbled continuously in Goloka Vrindavana. How could you call it the spiritual world? If somebody from our own lines falls down, we are suffering. It is such an painfull experience. So I am amazed, what the mind is capable of, to produce such ideas.

 

Well, sometimes Prabhupada may have mentioned in a letter to someone, that the idea, that we come from Brahman is rather impersonal. So he said, we do come from Krsna. We do not come from Brahman – because he could see, that their interpretation was: If I come from Brahman, then I better go back to Brahman again. They would not take Krsna in consideration as the supreme generating power.

 

Last not least the fall down, the return, the relationship and all the behaviour is covered by a certain veil. By the sweet will of the Supreme it is covered by a certain uncertainty which devotees have penetrated here and there with their tikas by saying things like: there was some apathy towards service; there was some indifference towards the Lord, there was some desire to control the nature; there was a misuse of free will. We reason in one way or another and that is kind of reasonable because you see that we can be good or bad according to our capricious decision here. It is reasonable that this capacity caused us at some point to go the wrong way.

 

So the veil is there, means you can not see everything as clear as without the veil. The veil which is covering the relationship is a very sensible veil. There is a reason for that, because without that veil, there would be no question of free will. If everything would be crystal clear our material existence would be a crystal clear nonsense and we would not have any choice to go on with our pleasure seeking mentality. It is very sad actually, people want the Vedas and Krsna to give things which Krsna prefers not to give, and due to that souls make concoctions, or even worse, they reject them all together. But it is not our right. We are simply meant to accept the guidance from the pure devotees, like Srila Prabhupada, who in a short purport emphaticly says, that nobody falls from Vaikuntha.

 

Then we may speculate: “Oh he means Vaikuntha, but from Goloka, yes we fall.”

 

First of all Goloka is part of Vaikuntha and not only that, it is the top most part of Vaikuntha and those who can not see that, they can not recognize that, well, maybe they are prefering the relationship in awe and reverence, like the aisvarya relationship with the Supreme Lord and thus they do not pay a special attention to the Lord, even though, who can do away with the sweetness. As a matter of fact I just saw a presentation of Lord Venkatesvara, presented on Video by the brahmanas from Tirumala, and they are quoting there, the prayers of Vallabhacarya, devoted to the sweet Lord Sri Krsna.

 

Well, it is not so easy to understand Vrindavana and Krsna. For that one needs the extraordinary grace of Mahaprabhu. Without Mahaprabhu Vrindavana can not be throughly understood and embraced, even though some people try to do that without Mahaprabhu. Anyhow that is another subject. The fact is, that the scriptures have said, that Krsna has four qualities beyond Lord Visnu: His sweet form, sweet lila, sweet associates and, sweet flute. This is unique. It is there in the scriptures. We have not made this up and if you think it is the same as the santa-rasa of our Prahlada Maharaja with Narasingha Bhagavan, well it is up to you. Everybody can choose the rasa of his liking. There is an invitation to all and they are not all the same.

 

Mother Yasoda does not know what Krsna does at night. It would spoil her relationship with Krsna if she would know what he is up for at night. Because she thinks Krsna is her boy and the only love he has is for her, and she has to watch after Him. She does not know that everybody loves him and that the Gopis have more access to him then her. So this is very unique unique unique.

 

Rasika topics are to be handled with great care, with utmost respect and utmost sincerity as well. Otherwise do not bother to put your nose into them, or you will get a confused mind from it, which you would not get by chanting maha-mantra and reading the siksastakam. There you will get a very clear direction, even though in the siksastakama all the lila is hidden. In the very siksastakam of Gauranga Mahaprabhu, His divine love relationship is revealed. So look at it, how amazing and wonderfull it is.

 

So, in this particular verse Srila Prabhupada makes it so clear that we will not fall down, when we reach Lord Krsnas abode. That means, nobody who has been before fell down either. That is a logical sequence. But we did come from somewhere, and we did come from the Lord, because we did not invent our selfs. So there is an agency of eternal soul production, if you want to call it in that way. And they all get the chance to go there or to come here. It is up to him. It is behind that veil, because if we would remove that veil, nobody could be in maya for one second, because the crystal clear confrontation with the truth would make it impossible to go against the truth. So there would be no freedom. We would just be fabricated to fit in one single unit, which means submission, and then everybody in the spiritual world would be a naturally submissive devotee without any option; and that is to much robot like, it is to much zombie like, it is to much mechanic and manipulated. So Krsna has not done it in that way.

 

Can´t you see it. It is obvious. Why do you argue about these things and why do you speculate about this. Just accept it. That is the way it is, and it is good that way.

Everything He does is good. He does not make anything wrong. We do, He does not. And here He is putting in scene a very special lila. Two pure devotees, Jaya and Vijaya – doorkeepers.

 

In Vaikuntha things are taken care with attention. You have to be qualified, if you want to speak with the Lord. In every temple He has his door keepers. Then they have this encounter

with the four Kumaras who come there as naked little boys; selfrealised. They wanted to see Visnu, but Jaya and Vijaya stopped them: “Who are you boys? You are not dressed. You can not come in here.” So the Kumaras got upset, and cursed the doorkeepers. Then they approached Lord Visnu. The Lord said: You where cursed, but you have a choice. You can be born for seven times as devotees in the world, or three times as demons. After that you can come back. Jaya and Vijaya accepted there three births as demons. So they came as Hiranyaksa and Hiranyakasipu, Ravana and Kumbhakarna, and Sisupala and Dandavakrta. These are the people who made history in the past times of the Lord. They were allways thinking of the Lord in envy, in greed.

 

Even though they were scholars - Ravana was a scholar - despite their scholarly capacity, they just twisted around the things against the purpose of the vedas. Just like we see people twisting around Prabhupadas purport in order to defeat another pure devotee, who said the simple truth: the powerhouse of generating souls is the effulgance of the Lord. And from His effulgance, beeing Him, the Supreme Personality, in essence nothing impersonal comes. Because He is the Supreme Personality and everything which comes from Him is surcharged with the potentiallity of personality, called the jiva, emanating from the tatastha-sakti. It is so clearly described.

 

These are not words taken out of someones mind. All is described there: antaranga-, bahiranga-, tatastha-sakti; and the light, the brahmajyoti, the effulgance coming from the Lord in the form of sparks, which are just each and everyone part of His infinte energy. So potentiallity of individuality developing by the sweet will of the Lord for raising in the soul the chance for coming into a personal encounter with the origin of its existence. This is Krsna, this is the beloved of all souls. And there are some people who come and twist the whole thing around, just to prove that Srila Sridhara Maharaja is wrong. Can you believe this. That is history. Nobody can say, that never happened. They told: “Oh we got a reason not to take sadhu sanga; oh we got a reason not to obey what we are being told - like not screwing devotees lifes, not taking into possesion which does not belong to you, and other failures pointed out by people in those days. But they say no: we found a mistake; Sridhara Maharaja is a mayavadi, he does not know what he is saying.

 

Just a few days ago I got a letter from a godbrother, I won´t mention his name here. He said: “you may follow Sridhara Maharaja, but we strictly follow Prabhupada.”

 

Such an ignorance. Srila Prabhupada was following Srila Sridhara Maharaja he learned from him as he learned from his gurudeva and there is no contradiction between one messenger of truth and love and the other. It is only in your dualistic brain that it looks that way. You may think there is a contradiction, because Srila Sridhara Maharaja says in emergency chant at least four rounds. Srila Puri Maharaja was telling allways to chant 64 rounds. Srila Prabhupada recommended 16 rounds. But there is no contradiction between these great souls, becuase that was the attitude of the Gaudiya math: chant always, but if there is service to be done, of emergency, chant at least 4 rounds. These great souls are not picking on each other for selfish interests, nor do they fight territorial wars, as we fullishly want to acuse them.

 

This is becuase we our self are in this territiorial thinking and have some interest which will bring us down rather then up in spiritual life. That is my answer which I have on this situation on abuse towards pure devotees revelations in tha garb of protecting the interest of an institution, in the garb of protecting ones personal, very limited visions and motivation. Thank you very much Srila Prabhupada for giving so such clearity on this topic in this verse.

 

[Guest guest]

To the above guest who posted "A lecture by Swami BA Paramadvaiti Dez. 2005" : In that lecture it says.

 

"In this puport Srila Prabhupada says three times within a half page, that a living entitiy can not fall from Vaikuntha, will not fall from Vaikuntha, never falls from Vaikuntha."

 

Can you please post the verse, where it is from, and the purport to that verse, where Prabhupada says three times that "a living entity never falls from Vaikuntha".

 

In the above lecture by Swami BA Paramadvaiti he alludes to a verse, and purport, wherein Prabhupada says this, but i could not see which verse he was refering to, from the lecture you posted.

[Guest guest]

 

See:

http://www.srimadbhagavatam.com/7/1/35/en

 

where the first paragraph of his Purport says says:

========================

 

This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but Nārada Muni, being an authority, could answer it. Therefore Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira inquired from him, saying, etad ākhyātum arhasi: "only you can explain the reason." From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Viṣṇu who descend from Vaikuṇṭha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamāyā, not mahāmāyā. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuṇṭha.

 

========================

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The lecture must refer to SB 3.16.29:

 

As explained in connection with text 26, all the incidents that took place had the approval of the Lord.

 

Ordinarily, there is no possibility that the four sages could be so angry with the doorkeepers, nor could the Supreme Lord neglect His two doorkeepers, nor can one come back from Vaikuntha after once taking birth there.

 

All these incidents, therefore, were designed by the Lord Himself for the sake of His pastimes in the material world. Thus He plainly says that it was done with His approval.

 

Otherwise, it would have been impossible for inhabitants of Vaikuntha to come back to this material world simply because of a brahminical curse.

 

The Lord especially blesses the so-called culprits: "All glories unto you."

A devotee, once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down. That is the conclusion of this incident.

[vijay]

So if a devotee doesnt fall down form vaikuntha, and i understand there is the seed of devotion when we fall from tatashta, what is meant by constitutional position?

Do we already have a form which is innate in us or is it not fixed?

[vijay]

"We are all originally situated on the platform of Krsna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krsna". - Letter, November 17, 1970.

 

 

 

"(H)e has fallen means he has given up the service of Krsna". - Lecture in Tokyo, April 20, 1972.

 

 

 

"Therefore, the rasas were originally exchanged between the spiritual living being and the spiritual whole, the Personality of Godhead." - Purport to Srimad Bhagavatam, 1.1.3.

 

[muralidhar_das]

So if a devotee doesnt fall down form vaikuntha, and i understand there is the seed of devotion when we fall from tatashta, what is meant by constitutional position?

=========================

 

response:

I don't know what that means. But I do know that the jiva originates in tatastha. The light of Brahman. There is stated in Vedanta Sutra and Brahma Samhita

 

 

 

Do we already have a form which is innate in us or is it not fixed?

==============

 

We have an innate form but it is not fixed. See Brhadbhagavatmrtam and Vedanta Sutra. Vedanta Sutra states that the soul can have a form or no form, according to his desire.

 

 

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

Bg.8.21: That supreme abode is called unmanifested and infallible, and it is the supreme destination. When one goes there, he never comes back. That is My supreme abode.

__

 

[krsna]

Hit The Road Jack

Ray Charles

[ Hit the Road Jack and don'tcha come back

No more no more no more no more,

Hit the Road Jack and don'tcha come back no more ]

 

 

Well ... don'tcha come back no more

Uh, whud jou say? - don'tcha come back no more

I didn't understand you. - don'tcha come back no more

You can't mean that - don'tcha come back no more

Aw now Baby, please. - don'tcha come back no more

What you tryin to do to me!? - don'tcha come back no more

 

 

[Guest guest]

acintya bheda - abheda tattva

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

 

VAISHNAVISM

Real & Apparent

The bondage of jiva

 

.................................................

 

 

 

Jivas are of two kinds -(1) Nitya-Mukta (eternally free), (2) Nitya-Baddha (eternally enslaved). Free jivas are never enslaved. They are serving the Supreme God in five different functions** in His eternal blissful abode, where there is no change, no destruction, no misery. Jiva, once entered there never comes back here. The inconceivably narrowest line of demarcation between land and water or the line where land and water meet is called Tata; so also the meeting line of the Chit world or the eternal abode of the Supreme Lord and the A-Chit world or the region of Maya is called Tata. The power of the Supreme Lord displayed at the Tata is known as the Tatastha (lying at the Tata) or marginal power. All the jivas being the display of this power, have the inherent oscillating tendency and capability of going to the Chit or the A-Chit world. Tata not being a resting place, jivas must go this side or that ; those preferring the A-Chit, fell into the clutches of the Octopus Maya, when these mortal costumes of mind and body were put on him as a punishment. The satanic frenzy in which the jiva dislikes the blissful and eternal service of his Master and prefers to quench his thirstful desires of enjoying matter, opens before him a perpetual spring of liquid fire and poison at which he begins to drink deep. Thus in going to lord it over Maya, jiva became enslaved by her.

 

 

[Guest guest]

By 'Jaya & Vijaya did not fall from Goloka', you mean they didn't fall from the planet of Krishna but somewhere from Vaikunta? If so, I agree. They were the gatekeepers of Lord Visnu. I don't remember reading that they were guarding Krishna.

 

 

 

to use the example of Jaya and Vijaya in explaining the origins of jiva is hardly appropriate, as their situation was very, very special and not at all typical for living entities... the vast majority of Vaishnava scholars see the jivas in this world as originating mostly from the Viraja stream of Brahman effulgence. and that makes perfect sense.

 

while one can argue that a fall from Goloka (and Jaya and Vijaya were NOT in Goloka) is at least theoretically possible, that has little value in the consideration of the jiva's original position.

[Guest guest]

This is a disputed topic ... did the Jiva fall from Vaikunta. Maybe he did or maybe he didn't. But the fact is that once he returns to Vaikunta, he will not come back to this material world again. That is guaranteed. Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita that one who returns to My planet will never come back to this material world again.

[Guest guest]

Actually, Jaya and Vijaya did not fall from Vaikuntha.

They actually made the mistake of stepping outside of the gates of Vaikuntha when they attempted to stop the Chatusana from entering Vaikuntha.

 

Since they stepped outside the gate of Vaikuntha they were vulnerable.

If they had not stepped outside the gates of Vaikuntha they would have been protected.

 

Therefore, Jaya and Vijaya did not fall from Vaikuntha proper.

They crossed the line and put themselves in jeopardy.

[Guest guest]

It is not that they stepped outside. They were outside to begin with

[gHari]

I thought Jaya and Vijaya had inadvertently offended the Goddess of Fortune causing them to neglect the four Kumara naked sons of Lord Brahma. They were therefore punished. They were very much afraid of material life, of forgetting Krsna. It seems they didn't know that not a leaf falls from Vaikuntha. [sB 4.15-16]

[Guest guest]

NOt a leaf falls from vaikuntha! That is a beautiful statement. I didn't know that the Bhagavatam said something like that.

 

I heard too that the reason they had to come down to this material world was a result of offending the 4 Kumaras and subsequently being cursed by them. They had a choice of 3 demon lives or 7 (?) devotee lives. They chose 3 demon lives as it would get them back to their Lord quicker.

 

 

I thought Jaya and Vijaya had inadvertently offended the Goddess of Fortune causing them to neglect the four Kumara naked sons of Lord Brahma. They were therefore punished. They were very much afraid of material life, of forgetting Krsna. It seems they didn't know that not a leaf falls from Vaikuntha. [sB 4.15-16]

[Guest guest]

". . . From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamaya, not mahamaya. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. . . ."

 

 

 

 

TEXT 35

 

TEXT

 

dehendriyasu-hinanam

vaikuntha-pura-vasinam

deha-sambandha-sambaddham

etad akhyatum arhasi

 

SYNONYMS

 

deha--of a material body; indriya--material senses; asu--life breath; hinanam--of those devoid; vaikuntha-pura--of Vaikuntha; vasinam--of the residents; deha-sambandha--in a material body; sambaddham--bondage; etat--this; akhyatum arhasi--please describe.

 

TRANSLATION

 

The bodies of the inhabitants of Vaikuntha are completely spiritual, having nothing to do with the material body, senses or life air. Therefore, kindly explain how associates of the Personality of Godhead were cursed to descend in material bodies like ordinary persons.

 

PURPORT

 

This very significant question would be difficult for an ordinary person to answer, but Narada Muni, being an authority, could answer it. Therefore Maharaja Yudhisthira inquired from him, saying, etad akhyatum arhasi: "only you can explain the reason." From authoritative sources it can be discerned that associates of Lord Visnu who descend from Vaikuntha do not actually fall. They come with the purpose of fulfilling the desire of the Lord, and their descent to this material world is comparable to that of the Lord. The Lord comes to this material world through the agency of His internal potency, and similarly, when a devotee or associate of the Lord descends to this material world, he does so through the action of the spiritual energy. Any pastime conducted by the Supreme Personality of Godhead is an arrangement by yogamaya, not mahamaya. Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha.

Of course, a living entity who desires sayujya-mukti remains in Krsna's Brahman effulgence, which is dependent on Krsna's body (brahmano hi pratisthaham). Such an impersonalist who takes shelter of the Brahman effulgence must surely fall down. This is stated in the sastra (Bhag. 10.2.32):

 

ye 'nye 'ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah

patanty adho 'nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah

 

"O Lord, the intelligence of those who think themselves liberated but who have no devotion is impure. Even though they rise to the highest point of liberation by dint of severe penances and austerities, they are sure to fall down again into material existence, for they do not take shelter at Your lotus feet." The impersonalists cannot reach the Vaikuntha planets to become associates of the Lord, and therefore, according to their desires, Krsna gives them sayujya-mukti. However, since sayujya-mukti is partial mukti, they must fall again to this material world. When it is said that the individual soul falls from Brahmaloka, this applies to the impersonalist.

From authoritative sources it is learned that Jaya and Vijaya were sent to this material world to fulfill the Lord's desire to fight. The Lord also sometimes wants to fight, but who can fight with the Lord but a very confidential devotee of the Lord? Jaya and Vijaya descended to this world to fulfill the Lord's desire. Therefore in each of their three births--first as Hiranyaksa and Hiranyakasipu, second as Ravana and Kumbhakarna, and third as Sisupala and Dantavakra--the Lord personally killed them. In other words, these associates of the Lord, Jaya and Vijaya, descended to the material world to serve the Lord by fulfilling His desire to fight. Otherwise, as Maharaja Yudhisthira says, asraddheya ivabhati: the statement that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuntha seems unbelievable. How Jaya and Vijaya came to this material world is explained by Narada Muni as follows.

 

SB 7.1.35

[Guest guest]

". . . From authoritative sources it is learned that Jaya and Vijaya were sent to this material world to fulfill the Lord's desire to fight. The Lord also sometimes wants to fight, but who can fight with the Lord but a very confidential devotee of the Lord? Jaya and Vijaya descended to this world to fulfill the Lord's desire. Therefore in each of their three births--first as Hiranyaksa and Hiranyakasipu, second as Ravana and Kumbhakarna, and third as Sisupala and Dantavakra--the Lord personally killed them. In other words, these associates of the Lord, Jaya and Vijaya, descended to the material world to serve the Lord by fulfilling His desire to fight. Otherwise, as Maharaja Yudhisthira says, asraddheya ivabhati: the statement that a servant of the Lord could fall from Vaikuntha seems unbelievable. . . ."

[Guest guest]

the big question now is what happened to the spiritual bodies of Jaya and Vijaya when they "fell" to the material world to perform the pastimes with the Lord?

 

did their spiritual bodies die or become dormant or what?

 

What happened to the spiritual forms of Jaya and Vijaya when they took material bodies to fight with the Lord?

 

did they hang them up in a closet somewhere?

 

Did they go to sleep?

 

Or, did all their adventures in the material world happen in the blink of an eye and there was no break in their service as the gatekeepers of Vaikuntha?

 

If somebody can answer this question, then they are pretty good.

[Guest guest]

Very good question. Very good.

[Guest guest]

Well, that applies to all other beings in the material world as well ... the countless billions of them! What happens to their spiritual bodies while they are in this material world?

 

 

the big question now is what happened to the spiritual bodies of Jaya and Vijaya when they "fell" to the material world to perform the pastimes with the Lord?

 

did their spiritual bodies die or become dormant or what?

 

What happened to the spiritual forms of Jaya and Vijaya when they took material bodies to fight with the Lord?

 

did they hang them up in a closet somewhere?

 

Did they go to sleep?

 

Or, did all their adventures in the material world happen in the blink of an eye and there was no break in their service as the gatekeepers of Vaikuntha?

 

If somebody can answer this question, then they are pretty good.

[Guest guest]

 

Well, that applies to all other beings in the material world as well ... the countless billions of them! What happens to their spiritual bodies while they are in this material world?

 

Because there is no birth or death in the spiritual world, we have to think that Jaya and Vijaya did nothing like dying.

There spiritual bodies could not have been vacated by their souls because that is what we call death.

There is no death in the spiritual world.

 

So, should we think that they descended into the material world in their spiritual bodies and merely assumed some material covering?

 

Then again, how could they had been killed by the Lord and reborn again?

As well, their different incarnations as demons were not successive, so what state of existence were they in between births as demons?

 

I don't recall anywhere in shastra that these questions are dealt with.

 

It seems like Jiva Goswami would have dealt with those questions somewhere somehow, because the issue is very central to the whole issue of the fall of the jiva and Jiva Goswami is supposed to be the most authoritative.

[Guest guest]

You have presented more excellent questions that I have no clue about. It'd be interesting to see if someone else can answer them.

 

 

Because there is no birth or death in the spiritual world, we have to think that Jaya and Vijaya did nothing like dying.

There spiritual bodies could not have been vacated by their souls because that is what we call death.

There is no death in the spiritual world.

 

So, should we think that they descended into the material world in their spiritual bodies and merely assumed some material covering?

 

Then again, how could they had been killed by the Lord and reborn again?

As well, their different incarnations as demons were not successive, so what state of existence were they in between births as demons?

 

I don't recall anywhere in shastra that these questions are dealt with.

 

It seems like Jiva Goswami would have dealt with those questions somewhere somehow, because the issue is very central to the whole issue of the fall of the jiva and Jiva Goswami is supposed to be the most authoritative.

[gHari]

 

the big question now is what happened to the spiritual bodies of Jaya and Vijaya when they "fell" to the material world to perform the pastimes with the Lord?

 

did their spiritual bodies die or become dormant or what?

 

What happened to the spiritual forms of Jaya and Vijaya when they took material bodies to fight with the Lord?

 

did they hang them up in a closet somewhere?

 

Did they go to sleep?

 

Or, did all their adventures in the material world happen in the blink of an eye and there was no break in their service as the gatekeepers of Vaikuntha?

 

If somebody can answer this question, then they are pretty good.

Perhaps they simply blinked their eyes.