Can Hinduism survive without the Caste System?

[Guest guest]

I may offend some people but I feel like as a Hindu I have to speak out against the caste system completely. I don't care if it is the age of Kali yug or the damn golden yug, the caste system is evil. It's not good, it never was, no not even in the golden ages. Most people think it was and they try and justify it but most of these people are usually non Indian Hindus, Brahmins or Kshatriyas. They for one second don't put themselves in the position of a Shudra and if they did they would agree that these people were NEVER truly happy bieng slaves. No they were never happy bieng told they can't mingle or intermarry. No they were never happy bieng told that no one can share food with them. I don't care what anyone says.

 

If people say Hinduism isn't based on caste then tell me why is it written on all of our sacred scriptures? Starting from the Vedas? Why didn't any avatar speak out about it? And if Hinduism really isn't based on Caste like some Hindus say then why don't they make any efforts to abolish it? And for those Hindus that justify it, don't you realize that as long as you are justifying the caste system, even in a positive way that there will never be equality among people? People will always be divided and oppressed. I often hear a lot of modern Hindus say that caste is not based on birth but it is based on "Karma" and "Action". What the hell does that mean? Wow, what a way to cover up such an opressive system. Hello! It still doesn't = equality. Further, some Hindus say that caste is just profession. Again this is stupid. What does profession have to do with God, loving and spirituality, other than making an honest living? Why are these so called professions so badly enforced in Hindu scriptures that a person will get their head cut off if they don't follow their "profession"?

 

Lastly, do you actually believe that the day Hinduism declares equality among all people that it will be able to survive?

 

From a Hindu, disgusted by the Caste System!

[Guest guest]

Yes I agree with you that caste is a horrible thing. However, it wasn't only practiced within Hinduism. Ancient Egyptians had a caste too and so did ancient Pacific Islanders, Zoroastrians, Japanese as well as many other cultures in different parts of the world. The 4 class division was quite common in ancient relgions. Some had more classes. My idea is that this is just how Ancient people knew how to properly run a society. Restriction on intermarriage and not bieng able to share food within the castes was also quite common in ancient cultures. I have no idea why! The problem now is that these ancient relgions are now wiped out because of Christianity and Islam so they don't bare proof to the Caste system. We will never know if these ancient relgions would have had the same fate as Hinduism. Since Hinduism is the only ancient religion that survived in such large numbers- we are still practicing this opressing system. The problem with Hinduism is that Hindus never learned how to move on with "the times". We are now living in a individualist society where this system can never work. Everyone is all about themselves. Hindus never really realized this and because caste is mentioned in our scriptures/epics they think it's still okay to follow it and be stuck in the stone ages. They also (militant Hindus) think it's okay to use violence since Mahabharata is about war. They're just uneducated about the whole thing. A lot of Hindu tales and epics are not for us to follow, they are just historical stuff that happened in that time. Stories about our Gods and Goddess's. You read them and enjoy them for what they are worth. That's why I just follow the Gita and the Bhakti Sutra and to darshan to all the Gods and Goddess's and don't worry about this caste based crap.

 

Back in the day Brahmins were the priests so all the spiritual stuff was geared toward them. Everything! That's why when we read the scriptures it makes non Brahmins feel out of place (hence they label Hinduism as Brahminism), which is true to some point since most of it was written for them and by them (at that time). As I stated earlier before, because Hindus never learned to live properly in the present society...Brahmins still think that they are the only "preistly" class thus they are the only ones becoming priests and they are the only ones able to recieve initiation etc...And it's easy for them to claim their spot because it's written in our scriptures that it's only for them. As far as discrimination to Shudras, this is just plain corruption by Brahmins. For the past 2 or 3 thousand years Brahmins have been the worst people in our society. Messing everything up and doing everything to keep themselves on top...not to mention having a natural since of superiority through this caste system so they think it's okay to treat "lower" caste like shit. Most Brahmins today can kiss my @ss. If I ever saw a Brahmin mess with a Shudra girl or assualt a Shudra boy I would beat the s@it out of them.

 

Anyway,here are some links about Caste System in other cultures...as well as Caste discrimination that is bieng practiced in many countries today!

 

Ok so the forum is telling me that I have to have 15 posts in order to posts links so I guess I will have to wait on that.

 

Oh and by the way I am Brahmin...not that it should matter but I don't like most of my own people.

[Guest guest]

and displaying your own ignorance as well.

 

Hinduism is NOT about the caste system. It's a SOCIAL institution, not something that has to be adopted by someone to be a Hindu. Only fools think if you don't belong to a caste, if you weren't born Indian, or if you don't believe in the caste system you aren't a Hindu. Such idiots who believe any of this are driven by ego and their own ignorance. Hinduism is much more expansive than that. Hinduism is home to a range of philosophies, some asserting the existence of a God, some asserting the nonexistence of God. Some are dualistic, some are polytheistic, some are monistic, etc. A wide range of philosophies, a wide range of traditions, get the picture yet?

 

There are many who speak out against the caste system, but the caste system is supported by the unspiritual, egoistic, and superstitious Hindus, which is an overwhelming majority unfortunately. Hinduism has no central authority that can dictate policy to others, so educating Hindus worldwide is a long and arduous task, one that has to be done over a span of several generations in order to destroy the asuric thinking that caste system is a part of Hinduism and it's necessary for enlightenment.

 

As for the religious scriptures talking about caste, ever thought about those verses being interpolated into the scriptures at some point in time? Do you honestly believe the enlightened rishis and yogis believe or even believed in caste? Those who claim to see all as God? If you do, then there's no point in discussing things with you, your thoughts are that of a stubborn mule. Same with interpolations, there may have also been deletions and stuff from the religious scriptures protesting the caste system (if it existed in their time). And there are also religious scriptures that contradict one another on such things as meat eating, treatment of women, of other caste members, etc.

 

I agree that caste system should be abolished, but if it were, that doesn't mean Hinduism will die. There's no causal relationship between the death of the caste system and the death of Hinduism. Nor is there one between the birth of the caste system and the birth of Hinduism. If you do not know what religion and spirituality is truly about, or what Hinduism is truly about, then stop making stupid statements like caste system is integral to Hinduism and such things. It's offensive, it's stupid, and it makes you look stupid.

 

As for the caste system itself, it doesn't only restrict shudras to those specifications, it also restricts brahmins, kshatriyas, and vaishyas. Kshatriyas can't marry below their rank, vaishyas too, and generally brahmins can't. You do see caste mobility in the Mahabharata. For instance you see Drona the brahmin preceptor of the Pandavas seeking revenge against Kripa for refusing him half a kingdom when it was agreed earlier they would share a kingdom, this is indication of Drona trying to essentially change his role in society, change his status in life, and he doesn't give even a second thought to the idea he is a brahmin and that he shouldn't be doing this because he was born a brahmin. Karna was of the rank of shudra before Dhuryodana promoted him to kshatriya by giving him land to rule over. Ashwattama was considered a non-brahmin by his actions of releasing the weapon of destruction on the battlefield that caused danger to all. Perception of caste was either different back then and much more fluid, or it was interpolated into the scriptures. It however certainly fits into the general scheme of things where it is believed there is a degeneration of dharma as time progresses. Caste could have been a very open and fluid system, but as time progresses it became more rigid due to egoism until now. By the way, Parashurama is one avatar that fought, not necessarily against the caste system itself, but against kshatriyas despite being born a brahmin.

 

I can sort of see our society today and the occupations we have heading the same way (although not with any ridiculous injunctions against intermarriage and stuff like that, just that it's somewhat of a trend). For instance, the more knowledge we acquire about science, medicine and such, the less likely it'll be for a person of one profession to be able to transition to another seamlessly. And the more necessary earlier education in a particular profession will be. We're not even CLOSE to any such rigidity right now, but this is a relatively new civilization, and already there is a certain derision associated with people who transition from one career to a totally different career, particularly that of different fields in medicine or science. As you age, it becomes much harder to transition over into another field, because learning the field takes a lot of time and effort. This is not a statement FOR the caste system, as it is perceived today at least, simply an observation of how the caste system could have initially been conceived. Not liklely, but I think it's a possibility.

 

 

As for caste being determined by karma and action, or by gunas, one interpretation is that whatever your tendencies are, the caste that correlates to that is your caste. Another is karma and action determining caste, whatever you do in your life and in your past lives determines your function in the present life as far as society is concerned.

 

Think seriously about this for a moment, and you'll begin to understand that while the caste system as understood today is a hideous institution, the original idea of it is actually pretty practical. You think that equality can be had simply by realizing all people are equal and thus capable of doing any job. That is not so. People with low IQ's GENERALLY cannot become scientists or people of intellectual merit, people with high IQ's generally SHOULD be looking to do something to benefit mankind by being scientists or leaders in business and stuff like that. It's about making society efficient, and fully functional, this is an example of the type of thinking that might have gone into the caste system. You think that the caste system is an outdated concept and ideally it is. But cold reality dictates otherwise. It has no place in spirituality, but it is, in an idealized form, a practical guide to providing a fully functional and efficient society. And if you really thought hard about it, you would see that the caste system, or the IDEA of it really, is inevitable, and it actually exists in modern society today, although not with any label or stigma attached to it that India's caste system has. It's sad, but it's true. Even scientists such as Subash Chandra Bose in India had observed a correlation from modern society and the caste system of India, and I honestly think he is right.

[Guest guest]

Sorry, but the very fact that Hinduism has survived this long is proof that it HAS adapted to the times. That, and the strong faith many Hindus have shown to the religion.

[sporkubus]

I have read that the caste system started out as a way of explaining duty. The duties of a priest are different from those of a merchant, etc. But then it became too strictly adhered to and Brahmins became an "elite" class that owned a lot of land and wealth, and they began oppressing the shudras.

 

I've often wondered if the caste system was really such a bad thing. Every society automatically has a class system of some sort - today it is based mostly on wealth since we live in an increasingly global capitalist society, in other societies it can be based on power, birth, race, or whatever. Are any of these good? If the caste system was not bound strictly to birth, it might not be such a bad idea, since it would lay out the duties of every man's profession and a man who is simply a great craftsman and didn't have time to devote his full energy to religion would know what to do in that situation, and so on. I don't think it matters today though, since a capitalist society will always base its classes on wealth.

[Guest guest]

haha don't so get so defensive boy. I'm Hindu too and I think Hinduism has survived because of it's diversity and philosophy but sure in the hell NOT because of the caste system. I'll tell you that much. Infact with the rate it's going, you're looking at Hinduism declining much faster than you think. So be a man and recognize all the s&*t our people (Shudras) went though instead of defending Hinduism. The fight is not against Hinduism, it's against the caste system.