Bell's Theorem , Quantam Physics and Hinduism

[Eternal Law]

HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS AND THE PHYSICAL WORLD

 

 

'Om Isha vasyam idam sarvam, yat kincha jagatyam jagat'

 

"All this- whatever exists in this changing

universe, is pervaded by God"

-Isa Upanishad

 

"Om purnamadah purnamidam purnaat purnamudachyate, purnasya purnamadaya purnamevaavashishyate"

 

"That (pure consciousness) is full(perfect); this(the manifest universe of matter; of names and forms being maya) is full. This fullness has been projected from that fullness. When this fullness merges in that fullness, all that remains is fullness."

 

-Peace invocation- Isa Upanishad

 

"The Supreme Brahman(God) is the only Reality. The idea of the phenomenal universe is falsely superimposed upon it."

Swami Nikhilananda of Ramakrishna-Vivekananda Centre, New York.

 

 

 

THE RISHI'S VISION

 

The Rishi's vision of a world in which man participates in a seamless existence, indivisibly united with the universe around him, resonates through a discovery called "BELL'S THEOREM". This discovery, first proposed in 1964 by the physicist John S. Bell was first confirmed by experiment in 1972 by Professor John Clauser at Berkley. It is an almost unbelievable result - unbelievable because the logical mind has great difficulty in comprehending how it can be true. Its impact on the physics community has been enormous. Professor Henry Stapp, a physicist at Berkley and an authority on the implications of Bell's Theorem, has called it THE MOST IMPORTANT DISCOVERY IN THE HISTORY OF SCIENCE.

 

A description of the proof of Bell's theory, as given by Stapp reads:

 

"If the statistical predictions of quantum theory are true, an objective universe is incompatible with the law of local causes."

 

Although formidable at first glance, Bell's Theorem seems simpler once key terms are understood.

 

 

First, an "objective universe" is simply one that exists apart from our consciousness.

 

Secondly, the "law of local causes" refers to the fact that events in the universe happen at a speed that does not exceed the speed of light. Things happen, in other words, always at the speed of light or less.This limitation is imposed by Einstein's special theory of relativity, and is a mainstay of modern physical theory. To be accurate, in actual experimental situations, it is not Bell's Theorem that is tested, but the predictions of Quantum Mechanics.

 

 

In 1935, Albert Einstein, together with Nathan Rosen and Boris Podolsky proposed through flawless mathematical reasoning that if the quantum theory were correct, then 'A change in the spin of one particle in a two particle system would affect its twin simultaneously, even if the two had been widely separated in the meantime'. And 'simultaneous' is a dirty word in the theory of special relativity, which forbids the transmission of any signal faster than the speed of light. Obviously, a signal telling the particle 'what to do' would have to travel faster than the speed of light if instantaneous changes were to occur between the two particles.

 

 

The dilemma into which Einstein, Rosen and Podolsky dragged the quantum theory was a profound one, coming to be known as THE ERP EFFECT.

 

 

In 1964 Bell's Theorem emerged as a proof that Einstein's impossible proposition did in fact hold true: instantaneous changes in widely separated systems did occur.

 

 

In 1972, Clauser confirmed the statistical predictions of quantum mechanics, working with an elaborate system involving photons, calcite crystals, and photo multiplier tubes The experiment has since been run several times with the same consistent results; Bell's Theorem stands solid.

 

 

 

 

 

THE IMPLICATIONS OF BELL'S THEOREM ARE PRACTICALLY UNTHINKABLE

Even for the physicists involved, the implications of Bell's Theorem are practically unthinkable. Mathematics and experimentation have taken us where our logical mind cannot go. Imagine, two particles once in contact, separated even to the ends of the universe, change instantaneously when a change in one of them occurs!

 

 

Slowly, new ideas are emerging to explain these unthinkable occurrences. One view is that, in some unexplainable way, the separated particles are still in contact although separated in space. This is the suggestion of the French physicist Bernard D'Espagnat. In 1979, writing about quantum reality, he said that "the entire notion of an external, fixed, objective world now lies in conflict not only with quantum theory, but in facts drawn from actual experiments.... in some sense all these objects constitute an indivisible whole."

 

 

Physicist Jack Sarfatti of the Physics/Consciousness Research Group proposes that no actual energy-requiring signal is transmitted between the distant objects, but 'information' is transmitted instead. Thus no violation of Einstein's special theory of relativity occurs. Exactly what this information is is unclear, and it is a strange thing which might travel instantly and require no energy to do so.

 

 

Nic Herbert, a physicist who heads the C-Life Institute, suggests that we have merely discovered an elemental oneness of the world. This oneness cannot be diminished by spatial separation. An invisible wholeness unites the objects that are given birth in the universe, and it is this wholeness that we have stumbled into through modern experimental methods. Herbert alludes to the words of the poet Charles Williams: "Separation without separateness, reality without rift."

 

 

It would be a mistake to suppose that these effects operate only with relevance to the invisible world of the atom. Professor Henry Stapp states that the real importance of these findings is that they translate directly to our microcosmic existence, implying that the oneness that is implicit in Bell's Theorem envelopes human beings and atoms alike.

 

 

The interrelation of human consciousness and the observed world is obvious in Bell's Theorem. Human consciousness and the physical world cannot be regarded as distinct, separate entities. What we call physical reality, the external world, is shaped - to some extent - by human thought. The lesson is clear; we cannot separate our own existence from that of the world outside. We are intimately associated not only with the earth we inhabit, but with the farthest reaches of the cosmos.

 

 

Certain quantum physicists now say that each part of the universe contains all the information present in the entire cosmos itself (similar to a giant oak tree producing an acorn that contains all the information to replicate itself).

 

 

This assertion is so audacious that it would be dismissed out of hand were it not for the scientific stature of its chief proponent David Bohm, a former associate of Einstein, professor of theoretical physics at Birbeck College of University of London. He is regarded as one of the pre-eminent theoretical physicists of our day.

 

 

 

SPACE AND TIME

 

 

 

This indivisibility also applied fundamentally to space and time. Relativity has shown that they are inextricably linked, and cannot be teased apart.

 

Recall one of the possibilities embodied in Bell's theorem involving non-local features of the universe: objects once in contact, though separated spatially, even if placed at distant ends of the universe, are somehow in inseparable contact. Since any change in one immediately and unmitigatedly causes change in the other, this is a nonlocal occurance, meaning that any information passing between the two objects would have to travel faster than the speed of light to cause such instantaneous change. Since it is impossible for the speed of light to be exceeded, according to the special theory of relativity, this event is said to be noncausal-i.e. not caused by the transfer of any conceivable kind of energy passing between the distant objects.

 

Although these nonlocal and noncausal descriptions are worked out for objects separated in space, Bohm states that the implications of quantum theory also apply to moments in 'TIME'.

 

What is crucial is that, according to the theory of relativity, a sharp distinction between space and time cannot be maintained.

 

We all have roots in the universe. Conscious mental activity exerts measurable effects on the physical world - a world that includes human bodies, organs, tissues, and cells. Mind becomes a legitimate factor in the unfolding of health and disease. The inter-penetration of all matter is the rule. The dividing line between life and non-life is illusory and arbitrary. There is only one valid way, thus, to partake of the universe and that way is characterised by reverence - a reverence born of a felt sense of participation in the universe, of a kinship with all others and with all matter. A reverential attitude that bespeaks a oneness with the universe can transform the commonest act.

 

 

Bhagavad Gita, Ch.13,Verses 15 :

 

"Without and within all beings the unmoving and also the moving; because of Its subtlety, unknowable; and near and far away is That(God)".

 

 

Bhagavad Gita, Ch.13, Verse 16:

 

"And undivided, yet He exists as if divided in beings; He is to be known as the supporter of beings; He devours and He generates."

 

 

No division in Consciousness is admissible at any time as it is always one and the same. Even the individuality of the Jiva must be known as false, like the delusion of a snake in a rope. Shankaracharya (Aparokshanubhuti.43)

 

Vedanta and modern science are close to each other in spirit and temper. They are close to each other in their objectives and in very many of their conclusions as well. Even in the cosmology of the physical universe, we find so many points of contact. The fundamental position in the cosmology of both science and Vedanta is what Swami Vivekananda calls the postulate of a self-evolving cause. Vedanta says that there is one self-evolving cause, Brahman, behind the universe. Science says that behind this universe there is one self-evolving cause, the background material, in the words of astronomer Fred Hoyle.

 

Both believe in the theory of a cosmic evolution. There are a number of such similarities. The truths expounded in the Upanishads are impersonal, Apauruseya, not deriving sanction from any person. Scientific truths are similarly impersonal, objective, not deriving sanction from any person. Because they are impersonal, they are universal, and provide a clear insight into the nature of the world. That is science.

 

 

When we study the development of science during the last hundred years, we can trace the higher reaches of science slowly appearing on the horizon, and trace also the slow emergence of a non-materialistic outlook in science.

 

"The most important characteristic of the Eastern world-view- one could almost say the essence of it- is the awareness of the unity and mutual interrelation of all things and events…. The Eastern Vedanta constantly refer to this ultimate indivisible reality, which manifests itself in all things, and of which all things are parts. It is called Brahman in Hinduism, Dharmakaya in Buddhism, and Tao in Taoism…"

 

"The basic oneness of the universe is not only the central characteristic of the mystical experience, but is also one of the most important revelations of modern physics. It becomes apparent at the atomic level, and manifests itself more and more as one penetrates deeper into matter, down into the realm of sub-atomic particles. The unity of all things and events will be a recurring theme throughout our comparison of modern physics and the Vedanta philosophy."

 

This science and technique for realising the true glory of man, followed with scientific thoroughness and detachment by the sages of the Upanishads, and revalidated by a succession of spiritual experimenters down the ages from Buddha to Ramakrishna, is glowingly revealed in one of the immortal verses of the Svetasvatara Upanishad:

 

"Hear, ye children of immortal bliss, even ye that reside in higher spheres! I have found the Ancient One, who is beyond all darkness, all delusion; knowing Him alone, you shall be saved from death over again."

 

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Pankaja_Dasa]

It's funny how they discover all this when everything is ALREADY here.

[Sephiroth]

Problem with Western Science is in the way on how they started something out.

 

About 500 years ago, Europe still Dark Ages, thanks to Jesus Christ and Christianity. The Black Plaque managed to wipe out nearly 40% of Europeans and it took Europe almost forever to come out of its shell and recover.

 

At that time, Europe was in war with Muslims in the Crusades but some of the knowledge Muslims stole from India managed to be stolen in return by Christians who revolutionized Europe (like Maths, Astronomy etc).

 

However, Science in Europe started in the wrong foot. They pushed away Religion off Science and looked at Science in a blank, spiritual-less and blind-logical ways. And Europeans, growing up in this empty mind, begins to view other cultures as lower than them.

 

They came to believe that they are advanced in Science while dark-skinned Africans in Africa or Hindus in India are lower and less Scientific-minded than they were. The concept that Hindus could be smarter than Europeans AT LEAST by 1,000 years NEVER crossed their mind.

[Kalkin714]

 

About 500 years ago, Europe still Dark Ages, thanks to Jesus Christ and Christianity.

Wow, so Jesus cause the dark ages huh?

 

What's with all the "Christianity is evil" crap on this forum? Sri Jesus preached Love. You can't blame him for what the church-state did in his name a couple hundred years later. That is if infact Christianity is somehow to blame.

[Guest guest]

could you please stop with this universalism crap! This is a Hindu forum discussing Hindu philosophy! Go market somewhere else!

[Sephiroth]

 

Wow, so Jesus cause the dark ages huh?

What's with all the "Christianity is evil" crap on this forum? Sri Jesus preached Love. You can't blame him for what the church-state did in his name a couple hundred years later. That is if infact Christianity is somehow to blame.

Hmph ... Since when did Jesus gets a Sri title?

Problem with Christians are called "Whitemen Supremacy" concept. You may want to run a check on it on Google for further information.

Basically, Christians came to believe that they are chosen people of God for accepting Jesus, a son of a god. They came to believe that their White-men culture was above all and they alone were modern and civilised, while others, especially the dark-skinned people, were uncivilised barbarians.

Matter a fact, till as late as 1900s, Christians from Europe still argued that Europeans NEED to rule over the Asians because it was "White men's burden" to educate and civilise Non-Christians thus saving them with grace of Jesus Christ.

That attitude was the reasons for Europe to be in Dark Ages for nearly 300 years. And Yes, Jesus WAS to blame for it.

[aGnani11]

It's unfortunate that Hindus continue to disgrace the holy figures of other religions. Hinduism itself believes in the concept of Avatara. Does that mean that God takes avataras only in India? I dont think so. He sends his message throughout the world. Jesus was a holy figure. I'm not Christian, but even I see divinity in him. Never disrespect a man who only preached love for God. Isn't that just a form of bhakti?

Love your ishtadeva, love your Guru, love your shastras, but never disrespect other forms of dharma.

Going back to the original topic, does anyone know why India get's so little credit for its accomplishments in mathematics and science? We still do have manuscripts of Bhattāchārya and Bhaskerāchārya from the 10th and 11th centuries. Why aren't they accredited?

[Sephiroth]

 

It's unfortunate that Hindus continue to disgrace the holy figures of other religions. Hinduism itself believes in the concept of Avatara. Does that mean that God takes avataras only in India? I dont think so. He sends his message throughout the world. Jesus was a holy figure. I'm not Christian, but even I see divinity in him. Never disrespect a man who only preached love for God. Isn't that just a form of bhakti?

Love your ishtadeva, love your Guru, love your shastras, but never disrespect other forms of dharma.

Going back to the original topic, does anyone know why India get's so little credit for its accomplishments in mathematics and science? We still do have manuscripts of Bhattāchārya and Bhaskerāchārya from the 10th and 11th centuries. Why aren't they accredited?

You need your head to be examined. How can you say Jesus is a holy figure when the people who he (allegedly) came from - the Jews - had rejected him to be a Holy figure? What? You are wiser than Jews who studied their Scripture?

Don't be fooled by Christians and Christ. His so-called love is conditional one - you MUST accept him or damned for ever in hell. THAT is the love of Jesus and his god. Such concept DOESN'T exist in Judaism.

Read : http://search.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Why_Jews_Dont_Believe_In_Jesus.asp?s=g&k=jesus

Question to your answer on why India gets so little credit had already answered. Answer was - White men Supremacy.

Take History for example. West still believe that Egypt is the oldest (modernized) civilization because their Bible stated so (it never stated so in Hebrew, it just didn't mention any other civilizations).

So, if you suggest something like Dwarka which existed 5,000 years ago, you have to ask them to re-write their history books and Christians WILL NOT do that.

Same way, Christians attend to look at their civilizations as the most advanced in the world, slowly coming from Dark Ages and into a new Smart Age. To think that they were in Dark Age for thousands of years while Hindus were measuring distance of the Sun and monitoring the Stars is too much for them to accept. Their Egos WILL NOT allow it.

ONLY way Hindus can get credits their deserve is by promoting their own culture, heritaga and history, especially to their own Hindus first. Never mind that Christians don't give you credit, you should start crediting yourself and your forefathers first.

[Kalkin714]

could you please stop with this universalism crap! This is a Hindu forum discussing Hindu philosophy! Go market somewhere else!

Some of the greatest Hindus in recent history have been Universalists. Is God not universal? Do you worship a limited God? Isn't that the core of Hindu philosophy, that the One manifests in many ways? Doesn't Govinda say that He accepts all types of worship in the Gita?

[Kalkin714]

 

Hmph ... Since when did Jesus gets a Sri title?

Problem with Christians are called "Whitemen Supremacy" concept. You may want to run a check on it on Google for further information.

Basically, Christians came to believe that they are chosen people of God for accepting Jesus, a son of a god. They came to believe that their White-men culture was above all and they alone were modern and civilised, while others, especially the dark-skinned people, were uncivilised barbarians.

Matter a fact, till as late as 1900s, Christians from Europe still argued that Europeans NEED to rule over the Asians because it was "White men's burden" to educate and civilise Non-Christians thus saving them with grace of Jesus Christ.

That attitude was the reasons for Europe to be in Dark Ages for nearly 300 years. And Yes, Jesus WAS to blame for it.

So Christians = White supremicists then? Well mabey you should tell that to the millions of members of original Christian churches in Africa, the Middle East, India and China. I'm shure they'll be interested to know that they think that they are superior to them selves and should dominate themselves.

Do you not see that by believing and propagating uninformed sterotypes you are just as bad as those Christians you so despise?

The brand of Christianity that is responsible for heinous crimes to humanity the globe over is a product of the Roman empire's government, not of Jesus or his apostales. The book called the bible is also their product made up of the Jewish scriptures and Christian writings that they thought supported their aims. This governmanet also destroyed all other Christian sects and writings that were within' their lands. The churches after the empire and in other lands in northern Europe where they spread to carried this Imerialist dogma with it. So blame the Romans, the Brittish or whatever other Imperialist European culture you want too, but Jesus never said 'White makes right'.

[Kalkin714]

 

You need your head to be examined. How can you say Jesus is a holy figure when the people who he (allegedly) came from - the Jews - had rejected him to be a Holy figure? What? You are wiser than Jews who studied their Scripture?

Don't be fooled by Christians and Christ. His so-called love is conditional one - you MUST accept him or damned for ever in hell. THAT is the love of Jesus and his god. Such concept DOESN'T exist in Judaism.

 

</p>Guess what Sephiroth? The people who originaly belived in Jesus as the fulfillment of messianic prophecy and spread his message to other countries.........THEY WERE JEWS!!!!!!

 

You know very little about Christ's message or Jewish spirituality. Stop making such matter-of-fact remarks about someting that you have such a limmeted veiw on.

[Sephiroth]

Dear Kalkin714

Hmph you are as blind as you are foolish and ignorant. You do not know enough of this World.

First lesson about forums :- DO NOT write in Multipost (more than one post). It is considered improper to write in too many post, especially when others are answering your post.

<TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR title="Post 310713" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 align=middle width=125>Kalkin714</TD><TD class=alt1><!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Guest

could you please stop with this universalism crap! This is a Hindu forum discussing Hindu philosophy! Go market somewhere else!

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->Some of the greatest Hindus in recent history have been Universalists. Is God not universal? Do you worship a limited God? Isn't that the core of Hindu philosophy, that the One manifests in many ways? Doesn't Govinda say that He accepts all types of worship in the Gita?</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Question - Are Muslims Universalists? Are Christians Universalists? Answer - NO in both account.

In Christianity, you MUST accept Jesus or damned for eternity. In Islam, you MUST follow Muhammad and his ways or damned for eternity. So it this Universal? Is this acceptable by Govinda's standards?

So Christians = White supremicists then? Well mabey you should tell that to the millions of members of original Christian churches in Africa, the Middle East, India and China. I'm shure they'll be interested to know that they think that they are superior to them selves and should dominate themselves.

My dear shallow-minded friend, the Africans knows this already in a term called APATHIED which existed till some 1980s. Perhaps you heard of them, if you ever bothered to educate yourself.

In Apatheid System (which by the way, was broken by Mahatma Gandhi who taught Africans how to stand for themselves when he was in service in South Africa), White men are considered superior and Black men are considered lower than them. Christianity is taught to them NOT because they are equals, but because Christian White men had compassion and wish to save lowly black people.

In China, Christian Missionaries worked hand-in-hand with Merchants to bring Opium in and drug Chinese Youth. When Chinese Official tried to stop them, Missionaries hide Opium addicts and sellers alike in their Churches in name of Jesus and Compassion.

In Japan, they (Christians) tried to trade weapons to warring parties in Japan but Japanese Shogun were smarter ... he kicked out ALL the Christian Missionaries out of Japan and closed the country to foreigners.

In India ... well, I'm sure you don't need history lessons. Middle-East ... Christians worked together with Romans at first and then Muslims to wage war with Jewish People.

The brand of Christianity that is responsible for heinous crimes to humanity the globe over is a product of the Roman empire's government, not of Jesus or his apostales.

Maybe someone fooled you into thinking such, but please ... do not attend to fool me. I took Asia History Major and I know the history of almost ALL Asian country in Asia, and most of the the World's History.

Christians ARE responsible for ALL this crimes against Humanity. They are NOT product of Roman empire like you claimed. Do you know why? Because Rom perished before Islam came but Christians continued to corrupt Asia and South America. That is proof enough.

Guess what Sephiroth? The people who originaly belived in Jesus as the fulfillment of messianic prophecy and spread his message to other countries.........THEY WERE JEWS!!!!!!

Wrong ... I stated already that Jews had REJECTED Jesus and his claims of being Son of a God. Jewish God - Yahweh (simply means One who is Eternal) has NO Sons, Daughters, Beginning, End or an Equal.

 

You know very little about Christ's message or Jewish spirituality.

Hmph ... I will persume you do not know the meaning of my username.

[Kalkin714]

 

Question - Are Muslims Universalists? Are Christians Universalists? Answer - NO in both account.

 

Lol. Well you'd better go tell the Unitarian Universalist church that they don't exist then. You're a riot!

In Christianity, you MUST accept Jesus or damned for eternity. In Islam, you MUST follow Muhammad and his ways or damned for eternity. So it this Universal? Is this acceptable by Govinda's standards?

You see, this is what we call the fundie veiw. The funny thing is that so many Vaishava's (and some Saiva's) are exactly the same way. No they don't preach eternal hell fire, but they'll go to great lengths to try and demonize Advaita and Adi Shankara

My dear shallow-minded friend, the Africans knows this already in a term called APATHIED which existed till some 1980s. Perhaps you heard of them, if you ever bothered to educate yourself.

In Apatheid System (which by the way, was broken by Mahatma Gandhi who taught Africans how to stand for themselves when he was in service in South Africa), White men are considered superior and Black men are considered lower than them. Christianity is taught to them NOT because they are equals, but because Christian White men had compassion and wish to save lowly black people.

In China, Christian Missionaries worked hand-in-hand with Merchants to bring Opium in and drug Chinese Youth. When Chinese Official tried to stop them, Missionaries hide Opium addicts and sellers alike in their Churches in name of Jesus and Compassion.

In Japan, they (Christians) tried to trade weapons to warring parties in Japan but Japanese Shogun were smarter ... he kicked out ALL the Christian Missionaries out of Japan and closed the country to foreigners.

In India ... well, I'm sure you don't need history lessons. Middle-East ... Christians worked together with Romans at first and then Muslims to wage war with Jewish People.

 

My dear jack ass, I wasn't talking about south Africa, or modern missionary Christians. The Coptic church has existed in Egypt since before the Roman church-state. Please explain to me all of their wrong doings and beleifs. Also the Syrian church spread through Persia to India and China. Please explain to me all their migivings also.

Maybe someone fooled you into thinking such, but please ... do not attend to fool me. I took Asia History Major and I know the history of almost ALL Asian country in Asia, and most of the the World's History.

Christians ARE responsible for ALL this crimes against Humanity. They are NOT product of Roman empire like you claimed. Do you know why? Because Rom perished before Islam came but Christians continued to corrupt Asia and South America. That is proof enough.

 

You know I've seen someone say that the world, all of the illuminati and free masons who supposedly run the worlds governments are all controlled by Brahmins in the mountains of N. India. And what you just said is just as silly.

And your "proof" their is the most illogical thing I've ever heard. So, because there was a period of time between the fall of the Rome and the rise of Islam that means that means that a movement couldn't have spread from Rome before it's fall to other lands who were still powerfull enought to "corrupt" others? Come on.... this isn't hard.

Wrong ... I stated already that Jews had REJECTED Jesus and his claims of being Son of a God. Jewish God - Yahweh (simply means One who is Eternal) has NO Sons, Daughters, Beginning, End or an Equal.

 

Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot that you had already made your baseless decree. So a bunch of non-jews who happened to come to Isreal then decided to follow some guy around who no one else was following (since no Jews beleived him), decided he fullfilled Jewish prophecy and then spread that message out side of Isreal? You, again, have me in stitches! So was it the Romans occupying Isreal at the time or was it just extra terestrials?

Hmph ... I will persume you do not know the meaning of my username.

Oh yes, because if you know a Jewish word that makes you an expert! Sephiroth is also a caracter in a video game.

[Sephiroth]

by Kalkin714

Lol. Well you'd better go tell the Unitarian Universalist church that they don't exist then. You're a riot!

Why should I be bothered to tell them anything? As far as I consider, they are God-less people and I have no interest in saving any God-less people like Muslims and Christians.

You see, this is what we call the fundie veiw.

I don't give rat's a$$ what you call such views. FACT - Muslims AND Christians consider you to be DAMNED. That's all that matters here. Capiece?

My dear jack ass, I wasn't talking about south Africa, or modern missionary Christians.

DO NOT PATRONIZE ME, FOOL.

I have already informed you of Christians' creation of Apatheid System in South Africa and their role in destruction of China and also several Asian countries. ALL this ARE proven HISTORICAL FACTS.

Not enough? Go and read about Christians creating Communism in Russia. Not enough, India's current Caste System is based on British's Divide and Rule policy which they used in India and Malaya. ALL PROVEN HISTORICAL FACTS, even agreed by Historians in recent Discovery Documentary named "Legacy of Great Britain" which aired a few months ago.

So I do not need to proof to you anymore about Evil of Christianity and Jesus Christ anymore. There is more then ample proof. Only choice you have is whether you ACCEPT or DENY.

You know I've seen someone say that the world, all of the illuminati and free masons who supposedly run the worlds governments are all controlled by Brahmins in the mountains of N. India. And what you just said is just as silly.

Silly because you are not a Hindu but a (probably) a Christian in disguise. That is why you do not accept the Evil Christians had commited and continued to commit TO THIS DAY.

So a bunch of non-jews who happened to come to Isreal then decided to follow some guy around who no one else was following (since no Jews beleived him), decided he fullfilled Jewish prophecy and then spread that message out side of Isreal?

WHAT Prophecy? Jesus NEVER existed ... how are you going to say he fullfilled ANY prophecies? Historicans cannot find ANY traces of Jesus ANYWHERE and several Historians agreed that Jesus was a Myth created by Romans who followed Zeus (Roman Pagan belief) and made Jesus myth.

WHY do you think Jesus's birthday falls on Dec. 25? because that what his birthday? NO, that is the time of Winter Solistic - common festivals which Romans during that time.

PS : READ book called Ceaser's Messiah for further detail of Roman's Jesus Christ and how they managed to fool the World for 2,000 years by stating that they are continuotion of Jewish Tradition and even fooled Muslims into accepting them.

Oh yes, because if you know a Jewish word that makes you an expert! Sephiroth is also a caracter in a video game.

Hmph ... Arrogant fool.

[Yegan]

Sephiroth,

 

I am just wandering if you follow the preaching of srila prabhupada (ISKCON)? If the question bothers you or is inappropriate, my appologies, dont reply. Thxs

Jai Radhe

[Kalkin714]

 

by Kalkin714

Lol. Well you'd better go tell the Unitarian Universalist church that they don't exist then. You're a riot!

Why should I be bothered to tell them anything? As far as I consider, they are God-less people and I have no interest in saving any God-less people like Muslims and Christians. </

You see, this is what we call the fundie veiw.

I don't give rat's a$$ what you call such views. FACT - Muslims AND Christians consider you to be DAMNED. That's all that matters here. Capiece?

 

Wow! What is the matter with you? Can you hear yourself? You are exactly the same as the people you hate! 'they're God-less'. 'they're heathens', they're beneath me'..... don't you see that this is the same attitude that lead certain Christians to do the things you so hate them for?

FACT- not every individual Muslim or Christian (or any other group for that matter) shares the same veiw point. The world isn't so black and white. You are completely ignorant and only perpetuating hate and ignorance.

 

My dear jack ass, I wasn't talking about south Africa, or modern missionary Christians.

DO NOT PATRONIZE ME, FOOL.

I have already informed you of Christians' creation of Apatheid System in South Africa and their role in destruction of China and also several Asian countries. ALL this ARE proven HISTORICAL FACTS.

Not enough? Go and read about Christians creating Communism in Russia. Not enough, India's current Caste System is based on British's Divide and Rule policy which they used in India and Malaya. ALL PROVEN HISTORICAL FACTS, even agreed by Historians in recent Discovery Documentary named "Legacy of Great Britain" which aired a few months ago.

So I do not need to proof to you anymore about Evil of Christianity and Jesus Christ anymore. There is more then ample proof. Only choice you have is whether you ACCEPT or DENY.

 

Why don't you actualy read what I write instead of trying so hard to be a jack ass! I never denied that people who happened to profess to be Christians have done horrible things. The south african colinists church came WAY after the Coptic church in Africa, please tell me what the Coptic church (who are native Egyptians and not white suprmemicists) has done or any other Church that predated the Roman one and stayed outside of it's influence.

And you still haven't tied Jesus to the actions of these Christians that did do something wrong either.

So Christians started communism in Russia? The Communists that were anti-christian?

 

You know I've seen someone say that the world, all of the illuminati and free masons who supposedly run the worlds governments are all controlled by Brahmins in the mountains of N. India. And what you just said is just as silly.

Silly because you are not a Hindu but a (probably) a Christian in disguise. That is why you do not accept the Evil Christians had commited and continued to commit TO THIS DAY.

 

Another baseless acusation. Again I never denied that many Christians have done many evil things, but to say, as you did earlier, that they are resposnsible for all evil is just purely ignorant. Like I said the world isn't so black and white. Corruption and evil exist across the world in all land and in all religions! You can't say that all of one group is all evil or all good. And Again this is the same backward mentality that leads to all the evils you have pointed out!

And no, I'm not a Christian, I worship Govinda!

 

So a bunch of non-jews who happened to come to Isreal then decided to follow some guy around who no one else was following (since no Jews beleived him), decided he fullfilled Jewish prophecy and then spread that message out side of Isreal?

WHAT Prophecy? Jesus NEVER existed ... how are you going to say he fullfilled ANY prophecies? Historicans cannot find ANY traces of Jesus ANYWHERE and several Historians agreed that Jesus was a Myth created by Romans who followed Zeus (Roman Pagan belief) and made Jesus myth.

</p>WHY do you think Jesus's birthday falls on Dec. 25? because that what his birthday? NO, that is the time of Winter Solistic - common festivals which Romans during that time.

PS : READ book called Ceaser's Messiah for further detail of Roman's Jesus Christ and how they managed to fool the World for 2,000 years by stating that they are continuotion of Jewish Tradition and even fooled Muslims into accepting them.

 

I never said that Jesus fullfilled any prophacies, I said that his early followers believed he did. (Again, please actualy read what I say instead of just ranting). And yes there is no direct proof of his existence (or non-existance). I know all about the Sun-god/ Jesus connection (nothing to do with Zeus however) this was started by infultration of Greek ideals into the early Christian churches in Asia Minor (not by Romans).

But the fact is that weather or not he existed, the tradition of Jesus predated either Greek or Roman interests in it. Answer me this: Why would Romans make up Jesus in order connect with Jewish traditions? How would that help them? It just doesn't make sense unless there was already a popular movement in Rome that the government wanted to infultrate and control before it got out of hand. So it's not that they made him up, but they hijacked him. So how can you say that any Church not related to the Roman one is to blame for any of it?

[Vayuputra]

 

It's unfortunate that Hindus continue to disgrace the holy figures of other religions. Hinduism itself believes in the concept of Avatara. Does that mean that God takes avataras only in India? I dont think so. He sends his message throughout the world. Jesus was a holy figure. I'm not Christian, but even I see divinity in him. Never disrespect a man who only preached love for God. Isn't that just a form of bhakti?

Love your ishtadeva, love your Guru, love your shastras, but never disrespect other forms of dharma.

Going back to the original topic, does anyone know why India get's so little credit for its accomplishments in mathematics and science? We still do have manuscripts of Bhattāchārya and Bhaskerāchārya from the 10th and 11th centuries. Why aren't they accredited?

Beautiful!

I also cannot digest the fact that some Hindus beleive that God incarnates only in India and only Acharyas in some traditions are genuine. That is narrow mindedness of an extreme kind. Infact these people are no different from the people they are accusing.

Christians may be following some brainwashed pastors, but that does not discount the teachings of the religion. Always, be broad minded and look for subtle messages in the bible. Close reading yields only vedic wisdom put in another way and accounted for place and time, something like our smritis.

[krishnadasa]

God does only incarnate in India, and then India was not the same india what you see, india was the whole world, i mean , just like Sri Parikshith Maharaj ruled over the entire panet . So in that way it wud be wise to think that Krishna incarnates on the earth rather than narrowing the thought w.r.t to some so called country

 

And about the acharyas its wise to follow only those whose appearence has been foretold. Afterall risk with the spiritual things can cost many many lives (unlike material risk which can cost only a life). Better to follow the acharyas authorised , recommonded in the scriptures .

 

hari hari bol

[Apep]

 

Wow, so Jesus cause the dark ages huh?

What's with all the "Christianity is evil" crap on this forum? Sri Jesus preached Love. You can't blame him for what the church-state did in his name a couple hundred years later. That is if infact Christianity is somehow to blame.

Jesus in the bible also said it was ok to punish kids with a iron rod.

Want the scripture?

[Apep]

 

Hmph ... Since when did Jesus gets a Sri title?

Problem with Christians are called "Whitemen Supremacy" concept. You may want to run a check on it on Google for further information.

Basically, Christians came to believe that they are chosen people of God for accepting Jesus, a son of a god. They came to believe that their White-men culture was above all and they alone were modern and civilised, while others, especially the dark-skinned people, were uncivilised barbarians.

Matter a fact, till as late as 1900s, Christians from Europe still argued that Europeans NEED to rule over the Asians because it was "White men's burden" to educate and civilise Non-Christians thus saving them with grace of Jesus Christ.

That attitude was the reasons for Europe to be in Dark Ages for nearly 300 years. And Yes, Jesus WAS to blame for it.

Well that movement is dead. Now in the present you have Christians of all colors saying it is their burden to teach the wicked and the wrong of Jesus.

[Apep]

 

Beautiful!

I also cannot digest the fact that some Hindus beleive that God incarnates only in India and only Acharyas in some traditions are genuine. That is narrow mindedness of an extreme kind. Infact these people are no different from the people they are accusing.

Christians may be following some brainwashed pastors, but that does not discount the teachings of the religion. Always, be broad minded and look for subtle messages in the bible. Close reading yields only vedic wisdom put in another way and accounted for place and time, something like our smritis.

If you really believe Christianity to be a religion of peace go read the relevation chapter in their new testament.

It says: All those who do not worship the Christian God will suffer a eternity in hell. Just because we did not worship their chosen God.

Come back to me and tell me what you think.

[Singhi Kaya]

You are a new hindu Apep, Vayuputra's views are somewhat older-the idea sarba dharma samanaya which became popular in the last century is still the most popular understanding of religions among hindus. No wonder christians have made huge progress with conversions in history of independent India than they had ever before. Signs of death you are seeing!

[Guest guest]

but they're all valid for spiritual progression. Some are better fit for Christianity, others for Islam, and others for Hinduism. Everyone has different needs and these religions suit their needs differently.

 

IMHO, Hinduism is ideal for spiritual freedom and for spiritual progression, but that's not best suited for everyone.

[Sephiroth]

 

Sephiroth,

I am just wandering if you follow the preaching of srila prabhupada (ISKCON)? If the question bothers you or is inappropriate, my appologies, dont reply. Thxs

Jai Radhe

Answer - No, I don't follow ISKCON's teachings.

I don't follow any beliefs which incorporate Christianity and Christians, because I believe that by doing so, you will only sow seed of your own demise.

[Sephiroth]

 

Well that movement is dead. Now in the present you have Christians of all colors saying it is their burden to teach the wicked and the wrong of Jesus.

Unfortunately, my snake-garlanded friend, you very much WRONG.

The movement (to convert others) is not dead, it just take different form. From 1800s to late 1900s, Christians believe that black-skinned people are closer to animals and therefore, it was their duty to educate this black-skinned people on how to be civilised. This is called "White men's Burden" to educate others and later, known as "White men's Supremacy" which become basis for Apatheid in Africa, Communism in Russia and China and Klux Kla Klan in America, as well as Skinheads in Europe to this day.

Now, to prevent Christianity from dying again (this time by hands of Buddhism where Buddha play better role than Jesus did), Christians play a different tune. They admit that Christians in the past did horrible things and it is their duty to correct that mistake, all in name of keeping Jesus alive.

Don't be fooled, you are only save WHEN Christianity is NO MORE on this World.