Believing a Scripture to be Divine

[imranhasan]

In one of his posts, my dear brother and teacher Avinash writes:

 

Our scriptures say so. This can be considered as blind belief. But Hindus believe that the scriptures were authored by great sages of the past. Those sages, through their good conduct, could directly perceive the existence of demigods. Some of them even got knowledge from God Himself. Therefore, we should believe in what these scriptures say.

My questions with respect to this are:

 

• Do hindus believe the scriputres to be divine and flawless and applicable for all times?
• If yes, what is the basis of this belief?
• With reference to the statement 'Those sages, through their good conduct, could directly perceive the existence of demigods', we know through experience that even great and pious people make mistakes and sometimes very big ones. With this in mind, what is the basis of ascribing to the belief that whatever is entailed in these teachings of these great sages is flawless and true?
• How can we be certain that some of these sages god knowledge from God?

Thank you and god bless you all.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

We believe Qu'ran to be a mellacha scripture. [Meat-eaters]. And it to be temporary for time and cirumstance. On the other hand Vedic Scriptures are Eternal. Everything in the Qu'ran is inside the Vedic Scriptures in one way or another. But the entire Truth is not given inside Qu'ran for instance:

 

1.Re-incarnation

2. Animals don't have souls

 

Vedic Scriptures say anything which is conscious has a soul. And it is not different in each and everybody. I hope you have come here to learn because that is exactly what shall happen.

[imranhasan]

Thank you brother Pankaja_Dasa. Greetings to you.

 

We believe Qu'ran to be a mellacha scripture. [Meat-eaters]. And it to be temporary for time and cirumstance. On the other hand Vedic Scriptures are Eternal. Everything in the Qu'ran is inside the Vedic Scriptures in one way or another. But the entire Truth is not given inside Qu'ran for instance:

1.Re-incarnation

2. Animals don't have souls

Vedic Scriptures say anything which is conscious has a soul. And it is not different in each and everybody. I hope you have come here to learn because that is exactly what shall happen.

Unfortunately, I could not find answers to any of the questions that I had asked. Please do not presume anything about my religious ascription. My name is Imran, I was born in a Muslim family. Is that enough to make me one? I really do not think so. Even if I were one, would that be considered a disqualification in understanding the teachings of Hinduism or any other religion for that matter.

If you consider the Koran to be limited for a particular time and space. You must have a reason for that. However, my questions do not presuppose anything about your understanding of any other religion. These questions are related to the scriptures of Hinduism alone.

Trust me, I am interested in learning only. I have no intentions, whatsoever, of proving or disproving anything. I ask my questions for my own understanding. Subsequently, I make a presentation of my understanding in front of a group and try to get questions from them. I respect your beliefs and commend you for knowing what you believe in. I assure you, this is a not a very common quality in this day and age. Most of the times, I have seen people believing without even knowing any basis of what they believe in.

My fond regards to you and God bless you.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

I gave my answer already.

Pankaja:

 

But the entire Truth is not given inside Qu'ran for instance:

1.Re-incarnation

2. Animals don't have souls

 

[Eternal Law]

 

In one of his posts, my dear brother and teacher Avinash writes:

My questions with respect to this are:

 

Yes. Actual name of Hinduism is Sanatana Dharma which in english language closely means Eternal Laws, which have no beginning and no end.

 

Actually these Questions are applicable to each and every religion.

In Sanatana Dharma, Self-realisation is the only answer and there is no short cut to this. I don't want to give usual answers to such questions which people of other religions give.

Study, research and give time....You will get answers.

Muhammad Dara Shikoh (1627-1658 AD) the Sufi and favourite son of Moghul emperor , Shah Jehan:

"After gradual research; I have come to the conclusion that long before all heavenly books, God had revealed to the Hindus, through the Rishis of yore, of whom Brahma was the Chief, His four books of knowledge, the Rig Veda, the Yajur Veda, the Sama Veda and the Atharva Veda."

"The Quran itself made veiled references to the Upanishads as the first heavenly book and the fountainhead of the ocean of monotheism."

Quran itself says We destroy those who corrupted our Original message and replace them with new ones with a new message as a punishment. We know Vedas are the Oldest Holy books of Humanity and Hindu civilization is the Oldest continous civilization. It is Oldest continous civilization because here Original message (Vedas) is still protected and uncorrupted.

[gHari]

 

I was born in a Muslim family. Is that enough to make me one? I really do not think so.

Doesn't that mean you can be executed if you embrace another religion?

[gHari]

 

My questions with respect to this are:

 

• Do hindus believe the scriputres to be divine and flawless and applicable for all times?
• If yes, what is the basis of this belief?
• With reference to the statement 'Those sages, through their good conduct, could directly perceive the existence of demigods', we know through experience that even great and pious people make mistakes and sometimes very big ones. With this in mind, what is the basis of ascribing to the belief that whatever is entailed in these teachings of these great sages is flawless and true?
• How can we be certain that some of these sages god knowledge from God?

Thank you and god bless you all.

Known as the Vedas, the Hindu scriptures Themselves reveal that They originate from the breathing of God. As God breathes Hs breath emanates the pure sound and knowledge that comprise Vedic literature. Therefore They are called unborn, timeless, beginningless, unauthored.

As far as knowing Their perfection, like a pudding, tasting is the proof. If They lead to God, then we know, and many many saintly personalities in the past and present avow to Their authenticity, not to mention incarnations of God who offer absolute reverence to the Vedic knowledge.

One cannot even imagine the depth and magnificence of these scriptures. No other scripture in this world will prepare one to be drowned in the ocean of mercy and knowledge that God offers us in His words that flood the Vedas. The Vedas are on a completely different level of detail, scope and potency.

In his commentary to the Srimad-Bhagavatam verse 6.1.40, the spiritual master, Srila Prabhupada writes:<blockquote>Dharma is not actually manufactured by NArAyaNa. As stated in the Vedas, asya mahato bhUtasya nizvasitam etad yad Rg-vedaH iti: the injunctions of dharma emanate from the breathing of NArAyaNa, the supreme living entity. NArAyaNa exists eternally and breathes eternally, and therefore dharma, the injunctions of NArAyaNa, also exist eternally. SrIla MadhvAcArya, the original AcArya for those who belong to the MAdhva-GauDIya-sampradAya, says:<blockquote>vedAnAM prathamo vaktA

harir eva yato vibhuH

ato viSNv-AtmakA vedA

ity Ahur veda-vAdinaH

</blockquote>The transcendental words of the Vedas emanated from the mouth of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Therefore the Vedic principles should be understood to be VaiSNava principles because ViSNu is the origin of the Vedas. The Vedas contain nothing besides the instructions of ViSNu, and one who follows the Vedic principles is a VaiSNava. The VaiSNava is not a member of a manufactured community of this material world. A VaiSNava is a real knower of the Vedas, as confirmed in Bhagavad-gItA (vedaiz ca sarvair aham eva vedyaH [Bg. 15.15]).

</blockquote>The great Vaisnava leader, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura writes:<blockquote>A. There are two types of knowledge (jnana):<blockquote>1) self-evident (svatah-siddha), and

2) that which depends on the senses (indriya-paratantra).

</blockquote>Self-evident knowledge is the natural truth that is inherently a feature

of the pure spirit soul's original form. It is eternal, just as the

totality of the divinely conscious realm is also eternal. This

self-evident knowledge is called veda or amnaya. This veda, in the

form of pure knowledge (siddha-jnana-rupa) has incarnated in

the material world in the shape of Rk, Sama, Yajur and

Atharva, along with the conditioned souls (baddha-jivas); this

alone is the self-evident knowledge (svatah-siddha-jnana).

Whatever knowledge that ordinary souls can gather through the

use of their material senses is only the second type of

knowledge, or indriya-paratantra (dependent on the senses).

Q. Can anyone know the Bhagavat-tattva (the truth of the

Lord) by indriya-paratantra-jnana (sensual knowledge)?

A. No. Bhagavan, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is

beyond the scope of all the material senses. For this reason, He

is known as Adhoksaja. The senses, as well as all the material

conceptions gathered from the sense perceptions, always remain

very far away from the Bhagavat-tattva, the truth of the Lord.

Q. If Bhagavan is attainable through self-evident knowledge

(svatah-siddha-jnana), then we should be able to attain Him

by whatever svatah-siddha-jnana that we presently have.

What then is the need to study the Vedic scriptures?

A. The Veda is present in every pure spirit soul's existence in

the form of svatah-siddha-jnana. According to the different

levels of different souls in the materially conditioned state, this

Veda will spontaneously manifest itself to one person, or may

remain veiled to someone else. Therefore, to help reawaken the

forgetful conditioned souls to the eternally self-evident truths,

the Veda has also incarnated in the form of written books which

may be studied, recited and heard.

Q. We have heard that Bhagavan is perceivable only

through bhakti (devotional service). If this is true, then how

can we say that He is perceivable by jnana, even

svatah-siddha-jnana?

A. That which is called svatah-siddha-jnana is another name for

bhakti. When speaking of topics related to the supreme truth

(para-tattva), some call it jnana and some call it bhakti.

</blockquote>

[imranhasan]

 

I gave my answer already.

Pankaja:

Which of my questions did you give an answer to?

[imranhasan]

 

Actually these Questions are applicable to each and every religion.

Agreed. But, this is a Hindu forum. Will I be wrong to ask about these basis in Hinduism?

In Sanatana Dharma, Self-realisation is the only answer and there is no short cut to this. I don't want to give usual answers to such questions which people of other religions give. Study, research and give time....You will get answers.

Please review my questions. Are you saying that 'Self Realization' is your answer to my questions?

[imranhasan]

 

Doesn't that mean you can be executed if you embrace another religion?

I don't know what will happen, if I embrace another religion. But should we allow the fear of the unknown, the unseen and the uncontrollable be a hindrance in our way of accepting what we have truly understood to be the Truth from God?

[imranhasan]

Thank you very much my brother gHari, God bless you.

 

As far as knowing Their perfection, like a pudding, tasting is the proof.

What I understand from this is that you are saying that when one reads it, one feels it inside that it comes from God. Is that correct?

If so, which of the Vedas would you recommend that I start my reading from?

 

If They lead to God, then we know

The only problem that I face here is that if I were to start reading the Vedas and then were to tell you that I did not feel the same sensation in myself that you had. You would, most likely look at it as my bias and prejudice. Even if you would never have seen inside my heart. I will read the Vedas with honesty and openness. I promise God. But, what I am trying to say is that what one feels after reading a literature is actually sometimes more in oneself than in the literature that he is reading. You may never feel what a Christian feels while reading the Gospel or what a Muslim feels while reading the Koran. The problem is not in the Gospel or the Koran but in the mental and psychological bent with which one is approaching these books. Don't you agree with this?

 

...and many many saintly personalities in the past and present avow to Their authenticity

I am sure they did. However, being a matter of 'tasting the pudding', their sense of taste cannot benefit me or even you. We'll have to the 'tasting' on our own and then we'll have no choice but to rely on our own sense of taste.

 

...not to mention incarnations of God who offer absolute reverence to the Vedic knowledge.

God's incarnation is obviously a matter of belief. And as I have been informed by brother Avinash, it is not mentioned in the Vedas. Would you then recommend that I read the Puranas as well? Which other books would you recommend for me to read and in what sequence?

Thank you, my brother. God bless you.

[agyat_theunknown]

While reading scriptures, this must be remembered -

The knowledge gained by reading the scriptures is inferior to the knowledge one gains through one own experience. Nothing is to be trusted or taken for granted, however authoritative the source may be, unless one tests it through ones own experience.

 

All scriptural knowledge is lower knowledge, where as the knowledge gained through inner purification and self-transformation is much more superior. Besides the more educated a mind is, the greater is the need for its cleansing and purifying before it becomes receptive to divine knowledge. Knowledge hardens the ego, builds walls of resistance in the mind and blocks the entry of true Knowledge.

 

<!--Signature-->Scriptures are there to help you develop your own understanding and make your own rule-book or laws. If you follow a rule-book (scriptures), you always find an escape for your failures by finding an excuse. But, if you make your own rule-book (by your own understanding), you can never hide from taking responsibility for your actions.

 

If this is taken as the essence of 'Hinduism', every 'Hindu' follows his/her own religion...

<!--Signature-->

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

We believe Qu'ran to be a mellacha scripture. [Meat-eaters]. And it to be temporary for time and cirumstance. On the other hand Vedic Scriptures are Eternal. Everything in the Qu'ran is inside the Vedic Scriptures in one way or another. But the entire Truth is not given inside Qu'ran for instance:

1.Re-incarnation

2. Animals don't have souls

Vedic Scriptures say anything which is conscious has a soul. And it is not different in each and everybody.

Where did that come from? No one mentioned the Qu'ran, but out of your prejudice you immediately attack this person imagining what his religious beliefs are. This is nothing but hatred and prejudice. If you attack people like this again you will not be able to post here anymore.

 

 

I hope you have come here to learn because that is exactly what shall happen.

And I really wish you would come here to learn more instead of trying to smash people on the head with your knowledge. You need to cool down to participate in these forums. It's not a crusade here to convert everyone to your faith.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Well in the past he avoided my questions but seems to ask many questions himself. If he asks questions from 'our scriptures'. Then it seems fair he should answer from his end.

The title of the thread says it all for me.

 

I hope you have come here to learn because that is exactly what shall happen.

 

Yes. Maybe that was arrogant. My mood is to be the way I am if you need me to change, please go right ahead and ban me.

[Pankaja_Dasa]

Quote:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 3ex; BORDER-TOP: #666666 1px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 3ex; BORDER-LEFT: #666666 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #666666 1px solid" bgColor=#e0e0e0>Originally Posted by Pankaja_Dasa

I gave my answer already.

Pankaja:

 

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->

Which of my questions did you give an answer to?

__

I am speaking from your own scriptures. If you come asking about ours it seems fair that you speak from yours. Otherwise what are we talking about? I said Qu'ran doesn't mention reincarnation, or that animals have souls. But in our Scriptures it is mentioned that we can be born as animals if we 'act like them'. They are conscious beings. In that way we can see what scriptures are saying I do believe.

So the answers maybe can be answered like this.

 

 

Bhagavad-gita As It Is:.2.13:As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change. Read

 

-

 

 

[Eternal Law]

 

 

Agreed. But, this is a Hindu forum. Will I be wrong to ask about these basis in Hinduism?

I don't know why are you quoting just one line from my whole para. I said i don't want to give usual replies which people of other religion gives...Did i say you are wrong to ask this?

Please review my questions. Are you saying that 'Self Realization' is your answer to my questions?

Why should i review? Why you always ask same things again? Yes, i said that in plain simple English.

[imranhasan]

Thank you, my brother Pankaja_Dasa,

 

I am speaking from your own scriptures. If you come asking about ours it seems fair that you speak from yours. Otherwise what are we talking about?

I am not qualified to answer these questions. I have addressed the same questions to Muslims and Christians. If I were to get a satisfactory answer, I would let you know. But, obviously, this forum would not be a good place for that. Don't you agree?

 

I said Qu'ran doesn't mention reincarnation, or that animals have souls. But in our Scriptures it is mentioned that we can be born as animals if we 'act like them'. They are conscious beings. In that way we can see what scriptures are saying I do believe.

My brother, I have no intention of debating an issue I know nothing of. I am asking you about the basis of your belief in the scriptures and in response you tell me that the Qur'an does not mention reincarnation of the soul. Ok, so it doesn't. But my question remains unanswered. What is the basis of your believing any of your scriptures to be divine?

 

So the answers maybe can be answered like this.

 

 

Bhagavad-gita As It Is:.2.13:As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change. Read

Now this is really interesting. What exactly are you answering? Does your quote give the answer to the question 'what is the basis of believing that your scripture is divine'?

Thank you.

[imranhasan]

 

I don't know why are you quoting just one line from my whole para. I said i don't want to give usual replies which people of other religion gives...Did i say you are wrong to ask this?

 

I am sorry. I understand.

 

Why should i review? Why you always ask same things again? Yes, i said that in plain simple English.

Ok. Self-Realization is the basis of your belief. Obviously this is neither questionable nor discussable and so, not communicable.

Thank you.

[Eternal Law]

 

I am sorry.

It's Ok

 

 

Ok. Self-Realization is the basis of your belief. Obviously this is neither questionable nor discussable and so, not communicable.

 

True

[Pankaja_Dasa]

 

Now this is really interesting. What exactly are you answering? Does your quote give the answer to the question 'what is the basis of believing that your scripture is divine'?

You hit the nail on the head. Belief doesn't mean simply accepting anything we read or hear; but it all ties together and makes sence. So in answer to your question we believe because it 'makes complete sense'.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Well in the past he avoided my questions but seems to ask many questions himself. If he asks questions from 'our scriptures'. Then it seems fair he should answer from his end.

Yes. Maybe that was arrogant. My mood is to be the way I am if you need me to change, please go right ahead and ban me.

Since you can't see any problem in the way you dealt with other visitors, and since you admit you won't change the way you post, we will have to put you on the moderated list. All your messages will be held till a moderator can review them and approve them. Please allow 24 hours or so for your messages to show up to the public, provided there are no insults, unwarranted challenges or attacks in them.

There have been many complaints against your posts, which till now we didn't act on.

For example someone has said the following:

 

"He offends many people, who then begin to insult Srila Prabhupada, thinking he is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada. But while they are insulting Srila Prabhupada he doesn't have the decency to tell them that he isn't a disciple of Prabhupada, and that he has no connection with Srila Prabhupada or to ISKCON. Perhaps if it was his spiritual master, Puri Maharaja, who was being insulted because of his preaching style, he would tone down his words and learn to speak decently with other people."

 

The moderators have also complained to me many times, that they have to keep removing people's insults to Srila Prabhupada because of posts that you have made.

[imranhasan]

Thank you, my brother

 

You hit the nail on the head. Belief doesn't mean simply accepting anything we read or hear; but it all ties together and makes sence. So in answer to your question we believe because it 'makes complete sense'.

I think this is indeed a very valid point. Please let me state in my words what you are saying, so that I can be sure I have understood you correctly. What you are saying is that because the concept of reincarnation and the concepts that animals have souls as propounded by Hinduism makes sense, therefore you believe that the scriptures giving this view are divine. Would you consider this an appropriate representation of your point?

Thank you and God bless you.

[gHari]

 

Thank you very much my brother gHari, God bless you.

Yes, may God appreciate your genuine interest in Him today.

 

What I understand from this is that you are saying that when one reads it, one feels it inside that it comes from God. Is that correct?

While that is certainly true, especially considering the information provided by Srila Bhaktivinoda in my article, what I really meant by tasting the pudding to know that it is good is that the scriptures, gurus and saints past and present agree upon this common experience of God realization: http://vedabase.net/bs/5/38/en

 

If so, which of the Vedas would you recommend that I start my reading from?

If you are really sincere about this, then as a starting point, the Bhagavad-gita is usually recommended.

 

The only problem that I face here is that if I were to start reading the Vedas and then were to tell you that I did not feel the same sensation in myself that you had. You would, most likely look at it as my bias and prejudice. Even if you would never have seen inside my heart. I will read the Vedas with honesty and openness. I promise God. But, what I am trying to say is that what one feels after reading a literature is actually sometimes more in oneself than in the literature that he is reading. You may never feel what a Christian feels while reading the Gospel or what a Muslim feels while reading the Koran. The problem is not in the Gospel or the Koran but in the mental and psychological bent with which one is approaching these books. Don't you agree with this?

Those who have seen the Truth can see their God in all scriptures, in every ant, in every moment that exists. However, until we get past the words and rituals of the religious books on to the reality of God, we can only compare words with words, rituals with rituals, since the essence and the goal of the words and rituals are still yet to be disclosed through time. God always helps the sincere seeker - that is all He wants, our sincerity.

 

I am sure they did. However, being a matter of 'tasting the pudding', their sense of taste cannot benefit me or even you. We'll have to the 'tasting' on our own and then we'll have no choice but to rely on our own sense of taste.

I too was cautious. Half of it was intuitively true for me. After many months and many life lessons, God demonstrated that another quarter was true. Induction leads to conclusive proof by God's mercy. Effectively I had borrowed the faith of a saint, until God gave me my own.

 

God's incarnation is obviously a matter of belief. And as I have been informed by brother Avinash, it is not mentioned in the Vedas. Would you then recommend that I read the Puranas as well? Which other books would you recommend for me to read and in what sequence?

Of course God's incarnations are not impacted by my puny mind's acceptance or rejection of the fact. Humility becomes a most significant prerequisite for understanding Vedic knowledge. Known as the cream of the Vedas, the essence of the Vedas, the Srimad-Bhagavatam describes in vivid detail the appearances and disappearances of God's various incarnations. After reading the Bhagavad-gita many times, and following sincerely the processes recommended by God to get free of the drama of the world, then if you are still sincere you would be ready to read this Srimad-Bhagavatam.

 

Thank you, my brother. God bless you.

The biggest hint I can offer if you actually intend to explore these scriptures: do not offend them. No matter what religion you hold in your heart: God is God, scripture is scripture. If you offend Him here - then you offend Him there too, simultaneously. You are blessed here - you are blessed there too. Then He will help you understand and grow beyond the words of a book, a book meant only to point you to Him.

gHari

[ng dasa]

 

Effectively I had borrowed the faith of a saint, until God gave me my own.

Quote by gHari.

Thank you very much Imran and gHari for this nice conversation.

Faith in scriptures etc. has been a gradual process for me and to be honest still is. As in the above quote I have borrowed heavily from the faith of a saintly teacher whose association I have been most fortunate to recieve.

Gradually over time I have noticed the seed of faith within me starting to grow. This experience of noticing faith starting to blossom is a most relishable experience. Some realisations I have are a knowing that the process and scriptures I am directing this faith towards are right for me.

That yes, this process is developing love in my heart to God.

And due to this faith, these days when I read Bhagavad Gita, Bible, Qu'ran (which I have in my library and love), I can feel my saintly teachers understandings and love for God within these books.

[Apep]

 

Thank you, my brother Pankaja_Dasa,

I am not qualified to answer these questions. I have addressed the same questions to Muslims and Christians. If I were to get a satisfactory answer, I would let you know. But, obviously, this forum would not be a good place for that. Don't you agree?

My brother, I have no intention of debating an issue I know nothing of. I am asking you about the basis of your belief in the scriptures and in response you tell me that the Qur'an does not mention reincarnation of the soul. Ok, so it doesn't. But my question remains unanswered. What is the basis of your believing any of your scriptures to be divine?

 

Now this is really interesting. What exactly are you answering? Does your quote give the answer to the question 'what is the basis of believing that your scripture is divine'?

Thank you.

All the spiritual writings of man are inspirations of the divine to find the divine in ourselves. To find find inspiration or meaning in life. To find that center and balance of ourselves that we all desire to have. To find divine wisdom in the Gods.

You are asking a question that can not be answered. You are asking of divine proof , but why does the divine need to proove itself?

Why does the divine need to prove itself to me or to you?