Does God Want Man to Eat Meat?

[bhups]

nicely said

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Nice generalizations (and NICE avatar animated GIF), but they are potentially misleading.

 

I don't see things as being so cut and dried. Researchers have shown that plants *do* experience *something* (whether you want to call it pain or not) when they are abused. In fact, plants can "remember" their abusers.

 

There are gradations of consciousness. Even the stones are conscious (albeit in a stone-like fashion)! The consciousness of the animal may be more developed than that of the plant, but the line of demarcation is not clear. What about fungi, which are neither plant nor animal, but which posess characteristics of both?

 

Plants are certainly conscious and are much more sensitive than humans are in a number of ways.

 

Breathing (what to speak of killing plants) *IS* Himsa. With each breath we take thousands if not millions of lives.

 

If each breath is not being used to serve and glorify the Lord, we are accumulating karma.

 

 

No action can produce a retributive effect unless it is done with the consciousness of personal doership and responsibility. Man shall be punished by retributive justice, for man has the freedom to act and he is responsible for what he does. But animals have not been endowed with such a freedom and power of understanding and reason; so what they do is just the expression of the instinctive natural promptings in them and this is included in the scheme of the universal nature. Still they are subject to the laws of nature. Nature is beyond moral laws. Moral conduct is only for man, meant to restrict his behaviour and lead him on to universal consciousness through gradual ascent along the evolutionary ladder.

 

Cutting vegetables is not Himsa. There is no real consciousness in plants and trees, although there is life in them. There is life in plants, sensation in animals, mentality in human beings and spirituality in sages. There is no Visesha Ahankara (ego) and reflection of Chaitanya ( pure consciousness) in plants and trees. Hence they cannot experience pain. The tree will not say, "I am experiencing pain". The mind in plants and trees is not developed. It is quite rudimentary. It is Jada (inert) and insentient. Life on earth will be impossible if we take cutting vegetables also as Himsa. This is only splitting the hairs.

[Guruvani]

 

If each breath is not being used to serve and glorify the Lord, we are accumulating karma.

 

karma?

or Vikarma?

 

Karma is actually the stuff that accrues in executing the karma-kanda rituals of the Vedas.

Vikarma is the all the negative deficit we acquire through sinful activities.

 

Hardly anybody is performing "karma" nowdays.

Most everyone is performing VIKARMA. (ugra karma)

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

karma?

or Vikarma?

 

Karma is actually the stuff that accrues in executing the karma-kanda rituals of the Vedas.

Vikarma is the all the negative deficit we acquire through sinful activities.

 

Hardly anybody is performing "karma" nowdays.

Most everyone is performing VIKARMA. (ugra karma)

 

Thanks for the clarification. The distinction between the two has not been clear to me in the past.

[Guruvani]

 

Thanks for the clarification. The distinction between the two has not been clear to me in the past.

stick with me grasshopper and I will lead you to the light.

 

(but, I need some batteries for my flashlight to find it, please send cash)

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

stick with me grasshopper and I will lead you to the light.

 

(but, I need some batteries for my flashlight to find it, please send cash)

 

I was certain that your effulgence would be blinding enough!

 

In any case, haven't you seen the new capacitor-powered flashlights? You shake them around for a minute and you get five minutes worth of light--no batteries required!

 

Of course, the shaking of the flashlight kinda feels like it's dirty...

[Guruvani]

 

In any case, haven't you seen the new capacitor-powered flashlights? You shake them around for a minute and you get five minutes worth of light--no batteries required!

 

Of course, the shaking of the flashlight kinda feels like it's dirty...

 

yes, again you have shown me the light.

 

please send me some cash so I can order one off of the infomercial.

then, I will lead you to glory.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

yes, again you have shown me the light.

 

please send me some cash so I can order one off of the infomercial.

then, I will lead you to glory.

 

Cash, eh? You don't take PayPal?

 

In any case, why not just sell your flip-flops on eBay for $500? You can say they belonged to Prabhupada and forge a "certificate of authenticity".

 

What were we talking about again? Oh yeah, "meat". It's funny, but just *thinking* about meat can drag me down into the lower modes!!!

[Guruvani]

 

Cash, eh? You don't take PayPal?

 

sure, I take PayPal for computer repairs, e-books and about anything else.

 

but, you can use my custon search engine for free.

 

one of my websites:

 

http://www.reviewerchoice.com/

 

 

 

 

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

sure, I take PayPal for computer repairs, e-books and about anything else.

 

but, you can use my custon search engine for free.

 

one of my websites:

 

http://www.reviewerchoice.com/

 

 

Sweeeeet!! I just looked for "Creative Zen":

 

http://www.reviewerchoice.com/results.htm?cx=007950636384211896146%3Aarncjjhvwby&q=creative+zen&sa=Search&cof=FORID%3A10#1204

 

So, with the banner ad and the , I must have just made you a nickel!!

[Vrindavan]

what should be called for those opposite of "sinful activities" ?

 

 

>> Vikarma is the all the negative deficit we acquire through sinful activities.

[suchandra]

 

what should be called for those opposite of "sinful activities" ?

 

 

>> Vikarma is the all the negative deficit we acquire through sinful activities.

 

So what is the situation, people, they want to enjoy life within this material world, but actually there is no enjoyment in the material world. Because, Krishna says, there is birth, there is death, there is old age, and there is disease. So where is your happiness? After all, you have to die.

Suppose I make very good arrangement, very nice house, very nice bank balance, very nice wife, children, everything, but death can come at any moment. Then where is your perfection? If after so much hard labor everything is ready for enjoyment, but I am called by Yamaraja… Mrityuh sarva-haras caham. Death takes away everything. Therefore you cannot say the arrangement you made for happy life is perfect. That is not perfect. But foolish people, they do not know what is perfection. They simply want superficial, temporary happiness, never mind what will happen next life or few years after.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

Here are the words of Srila Sridhar Maharaja on this:

 

http://www.scsmath.com/books/Sri_Guru_and_His_Grace.pdf

 

 

Manu says that the trees are in such a hopeless position as a result of their own karma. Their feelings of pain and pleasure are similar to ours; their souls are not of a lower

standard. Still, they are in such a deplorable position

as a result of their own karma. They have no one to

blame but themselves. This is the state of affairs in this

external world.

 

Researchers have shown that plants *do* experience *something* (whether you want to call it pain or not) when they are abused. In fact, plants can "remember" their abusers.

 

There are gradations of consciousness. Even the stones are conscious (albeit in a stone-like fashion)! The consciousness of the animal may be more developed than that of the plant, but the line of demarcation is not clear. What about fungi, which are neither plant nor animal, but which posess characteristics of both?

 

Plants are certainly conscious and are much more sensitive than humans are in a number of ways.

[Arjuna Haridas]

I think that Vegetarianism is for the rich. Look at today's society. Meat is cheap and vegetables and organic foods are expensive. A poor person can only afford to eat meat. Just because of the simple fact that he eats meat to survive he goes to Hell? Should this person die because he's too poor to afford vegetables? No. Vishnu is more merciful than that.

 

 

Not everyone can afford a vegetarian diet, and those who can are lucky. Plus, you have those who are living with a meat-eating family. They can't go out and buy food themselves, so they must rely on their parents to buy food. Since they live in a meat-eating household, how do you expect them to survive when the parents only buy meat? Should this child die because he/she has access only to meat? No. Vishnu is more merciful than that.

 

Look at what the Great Lord Vishnu says in the Garuda Purana:

 

"If one takes meat after worshipping deities and manes in Sraddha, one does not acquire sin" (Garuda Purana 1.96.72)

"An intelligent man shall avoid these six: old women (for sexual purposes), fresh wine, DRY meat, carrot, curd in the night and sleep during the day" (Garuda Purana 1.114.25)

Notice how in 1.114.25 of the Garuda Purana, Lord Vishnu says to avoid DRY meat, not meat in general. By saying that we should not eat any meat is like saying that Lord Vishnu forgot to put something in the Garuda Purana.

 

Avoid meat if you want to. As a matter of fact, I believe that vegetarianism has good spiritual benefits. However, that doesn't mean that eating meat makes one spiritually impotent and entangled in the world. It simply means that one is eating meat to survive. This is the reason why most meat-eaters eat meat: to survive.

[Murali_Mohan_das]

 

I think that Vegetarianism is for the rich. Look at today's society. Meat is cheap and vegetables and organic foods are expensive. A poor person can only afford to eat meat. Just because of the simple fact that he eats meat to survive he goes to Hell? Should this person die because he's too poor to afford vegetables? No. Vishnu is more merciful than that.

 

This is a great fallacy.

 

Eating meat costs *way* more than a vegetarian diet. The only reason it may *seem* cheaper in some places is because meat is highly subsidized by the government. In the USA, one form the subsidies take is in water.

 

If you read John Robbins' "Diet for a New America":

http://books.google.com/books?id=PnO7_2F12p0C&dq=&pg=PP1&ots=PyRTKGOa0_&sig=RlIbP0uBfKmfH-cf23zay8anB2c&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fq%3Ddiet%2Bfor%2Ba%2Bnew%2Bamerica%26ie%3Dutf-8%26oe%3Dutf-8%26aq%3Dt%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26client%3Dfirefox-a&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title

that myth is torn apart piece by piece.

 

One example, in the process of converting grain to meat, over 90% of the protein from the plants is lost and 100% of the fiber.

 

Beyond that, meat-eating makes us more dependent upon fossil fuels and the illness caused by over-eating of meat has untold societal costs in terms of medicine and treatment.

 

Regarding your other points, the Lord is most merciful and accomodating--even of meat eaters. Just don't fool yourself into thinking that meat is cheaper.

 

One claim John Robbins makes is that, if Americans reduced their meat consumption by 10%, and the grain saved could be distributed to those in need, nobody would starve on Earth!

[Murali_Mohan_das]

I went to a Catholic High school. In our European History class, we were taught that, in Medieval Europe, the peasants could not afford to eat much meat--pretty much only on Sundays or major holidays, though they had ample seasonal fresh fruit and vegetables.

 

The nobility ate lots of meat as a sign of affluence. They also tended to have poorer health and shorter life-spans than the peasants.

[mahak]

Well, we had a talk last night and he said yes. Only meat. Dead cows, dead goats, dead sheep, dead horses, dead pigs, dead birds, dead cats, dead dogs, dead fish, dead bugs. Even dead humans. If you want to be fed, just make sure they are dead. But that is all you get, just meat. No lettuce, no catsup, no worchestershire sauce, no salt, no pepper, only meat. if you want spice, use dead anchovies, dead frogs, dead bonemeal and dead bloodmeal.

 

Im hungry, lets eat.

[celina12]

I really don't see how anyone can justify eating meat an be considered a vaishnava. It's clear as day that no vaishnava scriptures except meat eating.

[Arjuna Haridas]

 

I really don't see how anyone can justify eating meat an be considered a vaishnava. It's clear as day that no vaishnava scriptures except meat eating.

 

"If one takes meat after worshipping dieties and manes in Sraddha, one does not acquire sin" (Garuda Purana 1.96.72)

It is clear that Vaishnava Scripture simply state that meat something that is best to avoid if you want to spiritually progress (faster, at least), but not a "must avoid".

[Arjuna Haridas]

 

This is a great fallacy.

 

Eating meat costs *way* more than a vegetarian diet. The only reason it may *seem* cheaper in some places is because meat is highly subsidized by the government. In the USA, one form the subsidies take is in water...

 

I meant that eating meat is easier for the common man, not the government and the industry. My family, for example, sometimes (more often than not) goes through a food drought (as I like to call it). Sometimes, we go weeks with little food (and by little, I mean 2 apples a day).

 

When we occasionally get money that doesn't have to be contributed to an over priced rent and electric bill, we can afford only fast food. Let me tell you that McDonalds, Burger King, and KFC (as examples) are much cheaper than getting a package of vegetables, believe it or not.

 

This is what I mean by "Vegetarianism is for the rich". Maybe "rich" is a little too high of a class, but vegetarianism is definately NOT for the lower middle class.

[Vedesu]

 

When we occasionally get money that doesn't have to be contributed to an over priced rent and electric bill, we can afford only fast food. Let me tell you that McDonalds, Burger King, and KFC (as examples) are much cheaper than getting a package of vegetables, believe it or not.

Granted, vegetables can be a bit pricey, although a 10 lb bag of potatoes is usually around $3.00 at my local supermarket, sometimes less. I can also buy a 1 lb package of rice for less than $1.00, and a 1 lb package of lentils or split peas for less than a dollar, usually for only $.60 or so. And a 5 lb bag of wheat/white flour for making chappatis is around $2.50. So now let's do the math:

 

If you are eating fast food at a McDonalds, I assume you're going to get a hamburger and some fries. I'm also assuming that since you are poor, you will forego buying a soft drink. I'm guessing that an order of burger and fries will cost somewhere around $3.00 per person. I don't know how big your family is, but let's say you have a family of 6. 6 x 3= 18. $18.00 for the fast food. The $.80 1 lb. bag of rice will feed a family of 6 easily, and when cooked, will make close to a gallon pot of rice. Similarly with the .$70 1 lb bag of dhal. The 5 lb bag of flour will make enough chappatis to feed a family of 6 for probably 5 or 6 meals. For one meal, let's assume it would cost only $.50 to make a batch of 18 chappatis (3 per person.) The 10 lb bag of potatoes should be good for at least 5 meals for a family of 6. That would translate to $.50 per meal. So, to feed a family of 6 by cooking at home and making rice, dhal, and chappatis, with potatoes, it would cost $2.50. Your "cheap" fast food to feed a family of 6 would cost $18.00 for one meal (with the soft drink, add a few dollars more.)

 

So, you're looking at $18.00 for a meat-based fast-food meal for a family of 6 vs $2.50 for a simple, healthy, home-cooked meal for that same family. It's not even close.... the vegetarian diet is cheaper.

[tensriram]

God just witnessess what you do - he has no likes or dislikes - Make up your mind weather you wish to be nearer to him or otherwise - you would need to be the animal and the animal needs to be like you if equilbrium is to be maintained.

[Arjuna Haridas]

Why is meat such a big issue? Eat it or don't, it doesn't matter. The vegetarian can connect with his/her Ishtadevi/Ishtadevi and so can the meat eater.

 

I have no doubt that vegetarian Gaudiya Vaishnavas connect with Krishna and have a loving, indescribable relationship with him. I have the same relationship with Durga Maa, and I eat meat.

 

Let's focus on how to improve the world and how to progress ourselves and our brothers and sisters spiritually. Let's focus on getting the whole world to accept the fact of Vasudhaiva Kutumbakam (the World is a Family). Let's put dogma aside.

[mahak]

Mother Parvarti in her various forms, accepts proper yajna that involves animal slaughter. Goats and sheep. Never cows, never slaughterhouses.

 

I am a good friend of a Muslim who does things properly. The Muslim way is that one enables the goat to become the servant of Allah, and the one doing the sacrifice agrees to take the karma away from the goat. This is a priestly fuction.

 

Sri Kali Ma is also expecting proper ritual, otherwise, one's own skull may end up as an ornament on her necklace. Never does kali ma accept cruelty from anyone. So, if you think that a big mac or a whopper is pleasing to Kali Ma, dream on, loser.

 

The reasons many hindus do not accept vaisnavism is because only other vaisnavas can recognize the vaisnava. Thus they fail to see the objects of their own worship, (Sri Nataraja, Srimati Parvati, Sri Ganesha), as vaisnavas, thus only get a false image, sort of an anti-christ.

 

So, meat, there is no restrictions. You eat what you will. One is judged on four pillars of spiritual life, cleanliness, austerity, truthfulness, and mercy. It is ones activities against these pillars that are considered.

 

I can eat dried goat meat and have no ill effect spiritually. The criteria is that I need the food to live, I do not live to eat goat meat. If there is no other way, meat eating is karma free. But, as prabhupada spoke of once in great humor, we cat eat what the goat eats and live peacefully together.

 

hare krsna, ys, mahaksadasa

[mahak]

lets put dogmeat aside.