The state of the Krishna Consciousness movement in the USA

[allen]

After discussing the current state of the Krishna Consciousness movement in the USA in another one of my threads( Transition to Vegetarianism-prematurely closed in my opinion by the admin.) it is clear to me why it is struggling to attract Americans. The views expressed by Guest are typical, from my past experience with the movement after Prabhupada's disappearance, of how many American devotees interact with other Americans. I had the pleasure of contacting the movement in 1974. HDG's spirit was still pervasive throughout the movement. And what a very different spirit it was. Loving,kind and joyous. Not the militaristic, dogmatic and judgmental attitudes and spirit that was clearly in evidence by Guest on that other thread.

After having studied many of Prabhupada's books and gone to temple many times over the past 32 years , I even became part of the movement in the the early eighties, I feel I can speak about the glories and beauty of the deities and the glories of his Divine Grace without being called a hypocrite. After all the American devotees who were initially attracted to the movement saw the beauty and felt the love of Krishna by viewing the deities when they were still meat eaters. You see that is the problem with the movement that I was getting at but Guest just cannot comprehend. In his mind if you are not following all the rules all the time and you ever fall down then, in his opinion, you cannot enjoy the love of Krishna and feel the love emanating from the deities or comprehend the beauty that was HDG. If you say you do but cannot follow all of the rules 100% of the time, then you are a hypocrite.

It is a simplistic immature attitude that is very hurtful to the movement and has been proven over many years to REPEL people from the movement and it definitely DOES NOT ATTRACT people to the movement. Attracting people to Krishna was HDG's mission.

Again the figure skating example is a very easy one to apply here and should make it easy to understand even to the Guest. I'm sure there are many rules that apply to figure skating. I'm sure before entering a particular jump that you have to maintain the right speed, your arms and legs have to be in the right position at the start, in the middle and at the end of the movement. I'm sure there are many more rules about head position and foot position at the end of the movement. The instructor imparts all of these rules to the skater. The skater listens and understands these rules and then goes out and attempts to do the jumps. The skater frequently fails and falls down . The instructor, if he or she is a good one, patiently explains to his pupil where he went wrong in his attempt and encourages him to try again. The instructor may even perform the move himself to demonstrate how to perform the movement properly. The pupil tries again and fails and fails again many many times. Then perhaps they succeed in performing the movement. The they try again, sometimes they fail and sometimes they can do it. They may even get to the point of mastering that movement and then they move on to another movement and the process repeats itself. There may even be movements that the pupil attempts but just can never master and the instructors decides that those movements are beyond the capabilities of that particular skater. Then even if he has mastered some of the movements ther are times during competitions where they he fails to perform some of the movements properly due to the pressure of the competition or to some injury. Just because the pupil fails at performing all the movements correctly all of the time it does not mean that they cannot see the beauty of the movements and cannot love figure skating. The same is true in the spiritual life. We can know the rules and attempt to follow them all of the time but we do not always succeed. Just because we do not always succeed does not mean that we do not appreciate the beauty or feel the love of God. If we did not see the beauty or the feel the love of God what would be the motivation to keep on trying to succeed?

So how long do you think the figure skater would continue to try to successfully complete the moves if the instructor stood over them every time they fell and called him a hypocrite and a disgrace to the sport of figure skating because they fell? There are drill Sargent types of instructors but they soon find that they have no pupils and their reputation as a bad instructor soon puts them out of business.

Just as there are rules in the spiritual life there are rules in human relationships. If you do not follow even some of the most basic rules or even have a mind open enough to attempt to keep trying them, then you will not succeed in having successful relationships. Understanding that we are all flawed and imperfect is the most basic of rules in human relationships. Applying that rule is very important in attracting that other person to you and having a good relationship. If you want to repel people show them no understanding and dictate to them. It works every time. The dismal record of the modern Hare Krishna movement in attracting westerners,HDG's mission, is proof of that. Hare Krishna

[Samia]

I couldn`t have said it any better , well I might have used some chapters to make it easier to read .

I have learned to generally ignore posts made by " guest " becuse they tend to be rabble rousing as opposed to anything worth reading. If you can`t sign up and post with a name I feel like you are hiding and trying to not be accountable for what you say.

[Nrsinghadev]

Dear Allen

 

Okay, so you have "studied" prabhupada's books, joined the movement for a while(?) in the eighties, and have gone to the temple regularly for the past 32 years and yet you still haven't been able to give up eating meat?

 

Yet you feel you're NOT being a hypocrite when you continue to pass judgment and lecture those american devotees who DO follow the regulated principles? I'm sorry my dear but that just went down the wrong pipe.

 

Don't get me wrong here, I'm all for the gradual and smooth approach and ready to lend a hand when someone asks for help,but when the hand reaching out is overlooked we have to try a different approach.

 

If you've been familiar with the movement for that long, have studied it like you say and still haven't been able to give up that tiny spec of material sense enjoyment in the form of meat eating, you actually haven't really been reading at all, nor have you really studied it! You haven't taken it to heart. So clearly, the sympathy approach is wasted on you.

 

So if you want still help transgressing from the meateating diet, I really think you should stop moralizing devotees who DO follow the rules and actually start taking the principles to heart yourself. You see, if you really were seeing the glories of Sri Sri Radha Krishna, it wouldn't come into your mind even for a second to keep on checking innocent animals' progression through the cycle of life simply for your own sense enjoyment. You can't offer meat to Krishna, so there's really nothing but sin in that diet.

Look, your ice skate instructor maybe a patient one, but if after 32 years of practice you still can't even manage to put your skates on for yourself, maybe it's time to look at yourself being the problem instead of putting the blame on your instructor. I'ts time to get out of your poor helpless "falling-victim-to-maya-nothing-I-can-do-about-it-so-feel-for-me" role and take charge of your body!

Let me tell you my take on the drill sergeant. You see, those drill sergeants are hard and tough on their subjects because they know what they're sending their boys into, which is hell. So they toughen them up and get them ready. They don't hate their subjects, even though the subject may think so, but actually it is done out of care. The sergeant doesn't want to lose any of his subjects. When a subject snaps during training and loses it, the sergeant will be glad he lost it during training rather then on the battlefield, because now the subject gets to walk away alive and he won't be putting his buddies into any danger when things get real ugly. Similarly, these four regulated principles are not your "tra-la-la-take-it-as-you-please-and-if-not-just-as-well" kind of principles! they are not to be taken lightly. They are actually your drill sergeant. They serve as a very effective means to ward off the lure of maya, but they are completely ineffective if you don't listen to that drill sergeant of regulated principles. If in your heart you do not REALLY want Krishna, then you will not be able to follow these four regulative principles. Your mouth will be speaking "oh Krishna please take me I'm yours", but in your heart there is no such desire. Then you may chant the maha mantra and think about putting the stuffing in your turkey at the same time.

You said it yourself in your conclusion,

 

 

Just as there are rules in the spiritual life there are rules in human relationships. If you do not follow even some of the most basic rules or even have a mind open enough to attempt to keep trying them, then you will not succeed in having successful relationships

So if YOU are unable to follow even one of the easiest basic rules, which is no meat eating, how can you expect to be succesful? You HAVE TO take control of your body and stop feeling sorry for yourself, take charge, be hard on your senses if they start acting up because right now, your criticism of the American devotees is cancelling out any benefit you've gained over those 32 years of association. So start being critical on yourself rather than the devotees and remember that a real guru can be real gentle or hard like a thunderbolt, when he needs be.

 

Hare Krishna and

 

Good luck!

[Bhakta Don Muntean]

There is no excuse for eating meat after all these years - if you haven't given that up yet - you're never going to...

 

Yes there might be a holier-than-thou attitude among some devotees - but where it comes to you and this diet issue - I doub't it's 'that'...

 

Do you even want to stop eating meat? Or is it something you don't feel you have to do?

 

BDM

[Guest guest]

I'm the one who called him the hypocrite.....at first i felt bad about being so "harsh" but now after i see that you've been "in" the movement for 32 years i feel no such regret.

 

Thank you to those who are backing me up. I agree about being patient and compassionate, but it just seems like you don't want the help. You're indirectly trying to convince people to fall victim to their senses without feeling remorse.

 

 

Just as the others said, if you wanted to give it up, you would have over 30 years ago.

 

-Hare Krishna

[narayani]

Dear Allen,

I think it is very good that you are still interested in Krsna consciousness. Any small service and advancement adds up and is not lost.

I understand from previous posts that you are still eating meat? This is definately a hinderance to your spiritual advancement. I think it would be good to try becoming a vegetarian again. If you think you can't go "cold turkey" try giving meat up for one whole day, then the next week give meat up for two days and so on until you are no longer eating meat.

Also a big help is to have good vegetarian cook books. Check out Great Vegetarian Dishes, Quick Vegetarian Dishes, and Cooking With Kurma, all by Kurma Das. They are AWESOME books! Easy to follow recipies, dishes from around the world, and every one I have tried has been excellent.

We, each of us, have issues with which we are struggling in our Krsna Consciousness. Have faith in Srila Prabhupada, have faith in Krsna, and try your best to serve them. Hare Krsna.

[Guest guest]

Whoever truly wants to experience the love of Krishna will see past the coldness of the neophyte. Krishna will give the truth to those who seek it.

 

Hare Krishna

Hare Krishna

Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

Also Krishna Conciousness is an individual process and is between the spirit soul and Krishna! People will stop eating meat when they are ready.

[allen]

I am delighted to see this attitude in Guest! I commend you on your open mind and the kind heart you showed us with your last post. After all isn't that the purpose of the spiritual path? The love of God will make these qualities manifest in the true devotee and you have just displayed these qualities. I truly do see understanding and kindness in that comment. Thank You!

I think sometimes we ALL(Myself surely included here!) get all wrapped up in the building of walls and forget what we are really trying to do. What I mean by this is that the regulative principles are there to help us remain on the path. Of course the path is the most important thing. The path is very narrow and straying from the path puts us in contact with all kinds of demons. Therefore the principles are there to act as guard rails or walls to help us stay on the path. Very very necessary walls and walls that serve a great purpose.

Sometimes however we spend so much time stopping and concentrating on the walls that we forget that we are suppose to be moving along a path. We stop and try to keep building the walls higher and higher and thicker and thicker. We spend a great deal of time painting the walls very pretty colors. We decorate the walls and put pretty paintings and wall hangings on the walls. We appreciate the walls so much and see the great value of the walls that the walls become our main focus. Also decorating the walls are easier to do many times than the actual walking along the path.

Sometimes we spend years staying in one spot because of our fascination with the wall that we forget the main point. Which is that we were suppose to keep moving down the road. Sometimes we move a little bit down the road and what we see is a little frightening or even a lot frightening, that we find it much easier to keep decorating the wall.

We get so wrapped up with the walls that we spend much of our time criticizing people for not decorating the walls very well. Or constantly screaming that they are not painting the walls well enough. YOU MISSED A SPOT! As people sometimes pass them along the path they criticize, "Yeah he is moving past me but you know what? He is really not a very good painter or decorator!"

We sometimes keep rigid score cards. We say,"Well we've given this guy enough time to reach this particular goal and he hasn't done it so it's time to start calling him names and degrading him in the hopes that shame and humiliation will get him to reach that goal." As if that could really ever inspire anyone to achieve anything.

What if a person ,after lets say fifteen years, is a vegetarian 80% of the time, has an alcoholic drink a couple of times a week, is faithful to his wife, doesn't gamble,reads HDG's books every week and visits temple whenever he can. Is he welcome and should he expect to be treated kindly by devotees? You can change those percentages around and achievements or lack thereof, for each one of those categories and you will find that you could include many people. All of those people should be able to feel that they can meet a devotee and be accepted, loved and treated with understanding and kindness.

That understanding and kindness and guidance should remain as they create a long term relationship with the movement and her devotees even as they sometimes fall back in some of those areas, make gains in some and work there way along the path. Even when they stumble and fall very hard and maybe fail in all those principles. A helping hand back up and a kind word is what is needed. I believe that if that had always been the case thousands more would be associated with the movement than is the case today. I also believe that if the movement will adopt that attitude of understanding and acceptance,of all people at all different stages of achievement with all principles and disciplines,then the movement can start to go in the right direction.

I'm a 48 year old man. If I keep plugging along and let's say at 54 I'm able to follow all the regulative principles and have developed a deep love of Krishna and of his devotees( Without having achieved the latter the former is worthless) wouldn't that be a good thing? I think so and I hope all devotees would think so and be able to cheer me on and offer encouragement; even though at times they may cringe at some of my weak efforts.

I'll make you a deal. I'll keep trying if you will! Hare Krishna:D

[Guest guest]

you don't hold the right to preach these things....you are like many of the christian priests and ministers. They preach in church about respecting life and treating God's creation with respect. Then they go home and shove meat into their mouths.

 

You preach of compassion and understanding as if you practiced these things also. YOU DON'T, and thats the bottom line.....PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH.

 

Your talk about the "path" and the "walls" is totally obsurd.....you're saying that people should not worry about the regulative principles as long as they can stay fixed on the path.

 

Stop trying to drag people down to your level of thinking. No it's NOT okay to continue eating meat as long as you can stay on the "path". You never even be on the path until you give it up. You will be walking near the path, but never on it.

 

And another thing.....you say that you are 48 yrs old now, and that it would be good if at age 54 you developed a pure love for Krishna. This is like saying, "I will do whatever I want for the first 50 yrs of my life, and then from 50-100 yrs i will straighten up and become a religious man"

 

What if you die in the next month? You cannot be sure when you will die can you?

 

The whole point is to give up these sinful acts as quickly as possible, and get onto the path before it's too late.

 

-Hare Krishna

[Guest guest]

exactly!

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Message for Allen: Instead of indenting, just use a double enter between paragraphs so it makes it easier to read.

[allen]

It's very easy to continue with a failing path. The secret is to never leave it and never change course.

 

Guest once again cannot see the forest for the trees. It appears that it is due to his lack of experience,maturity and reading comprehension. He states that I said that people should not worry about regulative principles. Of course I never said that. Exaggeration is another form of lying.

 

What I said is that people make progress with different disciplines at different rates and that people have different strengths and weaknesses. I also said that we should recognize that FACT of life and be understanding. I also said that the lack of that understanding is what has caused this movement more problems than any other and continues to do so.

 

The problem started with the false notion that people who come from a culture that has for centuries not followed any of these regulative principles can, at the drop of a hat, adopt them all 100% of the time. Americans coming from their rigid judgmental background believed this. To think that a meat eating, alcohol drinking, sex crazed, gambling culture can instantly adopt vegetarianism, abstinence from alcohol,celibacy and no gambling without an adjustment period is naive and arrogant. To also adopt a religion from a TOTALLY different culture along with all of these other lifestyle changes without understanding and accepting the difficulties that come with all of those huge changes is, idiotic.

 

Arrogance,self-righteousness and immaturity has caused this movement almost irreparable harm. People from India, where that culture has had millenia practicing this religion and these principles,are not following these principles today. The power of the Kali Yuga is very strong. Foolish Americans,being a foolish American I feel I can speak confidently, now think that they should make everyone in America adopt these principles and that they should follow them all 100% of the time. Yes of course that is the GOAL! By just stating a goal does not mean that one can instantaneously attain it. Even when people are trying to follow these principles, if they cannot follow them 100% of the time, they are berated. Even though people from the culture where these principles originated are unable to follow them 100% of the time, we are expected to follow them 100% of the time. You do not help people achieve their goals by berating them! That is not a concept that is hard to understand! Guest you do want people to follow the principles don't you? If so then inspire,understand and encourage.

 

People who don't understand or study history are bound to make the same mistakes over and over. People from India have very good karma compared to Americans. They have hundreds of generations that have practiced these principles and many modern Indians grew up with this religion and these principles and they cannot follow them 100%. Get to know many of the Indian families that come to temple and if you can get close enough to be their friends, you will find that many of them do not follow all the principles all the time. Does that mean that they are not striving to follow them 100% of the time? No of course not. But they are human and sometimes they fall down. Are they hypocrites? No of course not. If they were not sincerely trying to be faithful to the principles and just gave them lip service and then just did whatever they wanted as soon as they left temple, that would be hypocrisy.

 

Guest states that I'm trying to drag people down to my level. That statement shows his total lack of reading comprehension. He just cannot get it threw his head that many people,maybe even him, are at or below my level and many are above my level. What he needs desperately to understand is that WE ARE ALL AT DIFFERENT LEVELS. In some areas I maybe far above his level. In others I may be well below. He needs to be open minded enough to learn from other people at other levels, understand people at other levels and to use appropriate human relationship fundamentals in order to INCLUDE AND ACCEPT people at all levels. He also needs to understand how to inspire and encourage and understand how to help people achieve the goals of the movement.

 

Alas his stubborn bull headedness and argumentative nature(Kali Yuga) only appears to allow him to continue to dictate. All he seems to do is robotically say Do it- Do it- Do it- Do it! I'm sorry Guest. It is not that simple. I know many people come to religious movements looking for simple answers to lives many difficult and complex problems. The fact is that life is difficult and complex and the solutions to the many difficult and complex problems are not simple.

 

Guest states that if you are not DOING IT 100% of the time you are not even on the path. Well if that were the case all Hare Krishna temples would be completely empty 100% of the time. I dare say that Guest might not be following all the principles 100% of the time. Could it be that he continues to call himself GUEST because if he were to reveal his true identity that someone might know him and point out that he wasn't so pure after all? You know what Guest, the real point is that THAT IS OK! As long as you are really trying that is what matters.

 

Guest also states the getting on the path as soon as possible is the main point. Doesn't he realize that people can be on the path and at times fall off of it and can then get back on? What he really needs to realize is that PEOPLE DO FALL OFF THE PATH! ALL THE TIME! It is a simple FACT! What I'm trying to get thru to you is how you handle them when they are not on the path 100% of the time or are on the path 100% in some areas but maybe only 60% or what ever number you want to use, in another area. The JUST DO IT YOU STUPID HYPOCRITE routine DOES---NOT---WORK! Never did and never will.

 

HDG'S mission was to bring Krishna Consciousness to the west. Do you think HDG would be pleased to see only a handful of westerners at all of his temples in the USA every week? Are you helping HDG fulfill the mission by having so few westerners in the temples? Guest your way has not worked and it never will work. Aren't you suppose to be helping HDG fulfill his mission? If what you are doing is not helping the mission to be fulfilled are you then not following guru's wishes? You need to think about that Guest.

 

So Guest if the whole point is to give up these sinful activities AS SOON AS POSSIBLE how do you define soon? Obviously if it has taken many souls from an Indian culture many lifetimes and many incarnations and they still aren't doing it; how long do we Americans with far worse Karma in this Kali Yuga get? Would we get there SOONER with encouragement, understanding and inspiration?

[Guest guest]

I agree with Allen, there should be a process of easing into KC for westerners. It takes time to ease into KC.

[Guest guest]

ok so let me get this straight.....you, a meat-eater, are asking us to be more understanding and compassionate. And you, a "follower" of the movement, have preached your great wisdom on compassion and love for fallen individuals for quite some time now.

 

Now tell me this....how can a person that eats meat (knowing that it is wrong) preach about compassion and understanding?

 

You eat murdered animals for sense gratification, yet you tell us that WE are the ones who need to change our mentality?

 

What would the movement be if HDG came to the US, ate meat, drank, etc. And then at the same time tell the young men and women to give these things. People would see right through him.

 

I don't care if you eat meat or not.....go ahead, enjoy. Just stop preaching your rubbish about American culture making it difficult, and Americans should be given more time etc. You are not American, Indian, African, Asian....

 

You are a spirit soul, and you have been blessed with the knowledge of what is right and wrong....I agree, many people will never understand KC, but since you have been given this chance, why not use it.

Don't think about past lives and next lives to foster your devotion.

 

At the end of the day, you know that drinking and eating meat is hindering your service, yet you make a conscious choice to continue with these activites.

 

I'm not saying that if I were to pick a random person of the street and teach them KC, that they should give up drinking/meat eating etc. right away.

 

They don't have the knowledge, yet YOU DO. But you CHOOSE not to use it.

 

-Hare Krishna

[chandradas]

Allen,

Hare Krishna,

In this day and age, Krishna has made it even more simple for people to maintain a vegetarian diet,I just can`t understand where you are going wrong.

[Guest guest]

First of all; i am sorry about my bad english. anyway...

 

I agree that we, the devotees, should be more compassionate. compassion rises from mode of goodness. if we want to develop this goodness, we should give up meat eating. if you have a great taste for Krishnas prasadam, it is easy.

 

other thing is that all of us should look into mirror. you see the body and yourself inside the body. there is the problem. not actually the soul is the problem, but our conditioned heart and mind. we have to change our heart and clear up the mind. ceto darpana marjanam. real problem is our thinking, willing and feeling. so how to change this situation? only by chanting hare krsna-mantra. unfortunately we do not have any taste and we are doing something else for example criticizing others. in that way we waste our valuable time.actually maha mantra can solve all our problems. we simply have to focus on it and really HEAR it. or them. Krishna and Radha are the hare krsna mantra. they are not in it. They are the mahamantra. so focus on them when you are calling them...

 

KC-movement might be different nowadays. but that does not matter. if we want to change something, we have to start from our very self. so lets try to be more positive and allso encourage others. sometimes devotees can be so hard for others. but that is not a bhakta. bhakta and bhakti-yoga is very much about heart and love. it is not some rules and regulations only. if bhakti-jooga would be compared into a car then sometimes devotees act like that rules and regulations and standars are on the front seat and back seat and Krishna Himself is somewhere in the trunk.

 

so think of Krishna.think of Krishna. and Prabhupada. Prabhupada is still there. in pictures,lectures and etc. he is very available. KC-movement is going thru a lot of purification and sometimes growing is painful.

 

my point is that stop critisizing others. it does not help. try to be a positive example your self and encourage others. KC is not a very negative thing, isn´t it?

[Guest guest]

Maybe you (allen) need to explain to us why exactly you have been unable to quit eating meat and drinking "occasionally", if you have such a deep understanding of what the movement should be like.

 

you are still trying to justify your meat eating.....now by saying that just a little piece is no big deal.

 

How can you complain about the movement degrading when you, yourself are still in a degraded state.

[Dwayne]

Krishna will not reveal himself to someone who still has material desires such as satisifying the tounge.

You can talk all you like about Srila Prabhupada, but he is totally against meat eating and wouldn't agree with your practice.

 

Practice what you preach and people will take you seriously, otherwise you are just cheating the people. Who follows a corrupt leader?

[Nrsinghadev]

Haribol dear Allen,

 

I must say I let out a slight sigh when I read your latest reply. I see you're still only looking to the outside rather than at yourself. Still with the faint touch of self-pity. You keep adverting to the devotees and the movement everytime you are confronted with your own issues. You know, the proverb 'God helps those who help themselves' and the saying 'physician heal thyself' are definitely appropriate here. You're trying to correct devotees while the person who needs correcting the most, namely yourself, is not getting the treatment. Honestly, if you had spent as much time on yourself as you have spent on trying to change the movement you would have been a vegetarian by now!

 

First correct yourself, then try and correct the behaviour of others! You're acting like a guru and put on airs preaching and chastizing devotees, 'bleating' about 'saving the movement' with lengthy replies but you don't have the necessary qualifications. You speak about 'we' and 'our' movement but you haven't taken initiation, so you have no right to speak the way you do. It's kind of like a NY Yankees fan barging into their locker room telling the players how to play and expecting them to listen to him. How do you expect this will bear any fruit at all? This is why you are getting so many unfriendly responses. All you've managed to achieve by that so far is the destruction of any pious merit you may have obtained during your association.

 

So for your own sake stop worrying about the future of 'the movement' ,stop criticizing devotees and start working on yourself. It says enough when you've been to the PETA site and all you've managed to get from it was that the PETA people are angry, close-minded and mean-spirited people!

 

The best way to work on yourself is to first learn to love Krishna and you will learn to love all. The vegetarian diet will be a concomitant result of that. You've spent a great deal of your life with knowledge of Krishna, so now try and take it to heart. Try to see the good qualities in others and the bad qualities in yourself. Focus on building your relationship with Krishna, and vegetarianism will follow eventually.

 

Good luck,

 

Hare Krishna!

[Dwayne]

Why not go tell your local temple leader all the problems and fix the movement if you're always right? Rather than you know, complaining on the internet.

[allen]

This thread went exactly the way I had hoped. My motivation for this thread was to bring the attitudes to the forefront that I knew existed and that I knew to be the cause of the problems in the HK movement. They have been there for over 30 years and you guys, right on que, showed them once again. You guys really are so predictable.

 

Lets review the facts.

1. The Hare Krishna movement in the US is in a deplorable state. The movement has been disgraced and westerners avoid it like the plague. It takes absolutely no qualifications to see this. All one has to do is open his eyes.

 

2. I also offered the reason for this deplorable state. That being mainly arrogance and the inability to deal with people as normal human beings in human relationships.

 

3. I offered what is a reasonable starting ground for turning the problem around and to get the movement going in the right direction. That solution is to start listening to people and being more understanding of their weaknesses, their trails and tribulations, and all of the complex differences that make up all of us.

 

4. The devotees contribution was,as always, to attack the messenger. It's like a thirty year broken record. We are superior to you because we have all of these qualifications that you don't. Even though people with all of the qualifications that they tout are the very ones that got movement into the mess it is in today. They neither admitted the problems or offered any possible solutions to them. Hear no evil,see no evil and speak no evil. Everything is just fine. Thank You. Do you think HDG would be saying that about the current state of his movement?

 

So in summation the state of the HK movement is as I stated. It is a fact and it cannot be disputed. The people inside the movement who have all the qualifications and who have created all of these problems have no solutions and they will not listen to anyone outside the movement. In other words, the quintessential Catch-22. A paradox. The problem with a Catch-22 situation is that there is no way out of it. It will always stay that way.

 

This is my last post on this topic. If there are other posts arguing against my posts I'm will not be responding. It won't be because the person has so called defeated me(HK members love to play the defeated him game) with his superior argument and I have given up; but because the thread and the topic has reached it conclusion. All points of view are clear on both sides and we obviously disagree.

 

I will pray for members and as always will wish you well.HK

[Airicky]

And Allen, you are another example of a huge problem in this world - duplicity.

You are perfect. Let us know when you start accepting disciples.

Thanks for wasting our time.

 

This thread went exactly the way I had hoped. My motivation for this thread was to bring the attitudes to the forefront that I knew existed and that I knew to be the cause of the problems in the HK movement. They have been there for over 30 years and you guys, right on que, showed them once again. You guys really are so predictable.

Lets review the facts.

1. The Hare Krishna movement in the US is in a deplorable state. The movement has been disgraced and westerners avoid it like the plague. It takes absolutely no qualifications to see this. All one has to do is open his eyes.

2. I also offered the reason for this deplorable state. That being mainly arrogance and the inability to deal with people as normal human beings in human relationships.

3. I offered what is a reasonable starting ground for turning the problem around and to get the movement going in the right direction. That solution is to start listening to people and being more understanding of their weaknesses, their trails and tribulations, and all of the complex differences that make up all of us.

4. The devotees contribution was,as always, to attack the messenger. It's like a thirty year broken record. We are superior to you because we have all of these qualifications that you don't. Even though people with all of the qualifications that they tout are the very ones that got movement into the mess it is in today. They neither admitted the problems or offered any possible solutions to them. Hear no evil,see no evil and speak no evil. Everything is just fine. Thank You. Do you think HDG would be saying that about the current state of his movement?

So in summation the state of the HK movement is as I stated. It is a fact and it cannot be disputed. The people inside the movement who have all the qualifications and who have created all of these problems have no solutions and they will not listen to anyone outside the movement. In other words, the quintessential Catch-22. A paradox. The problem with a Catch-22 situation is that there is no way out of it. It will always stay that way.

This is my last post on this topic. If there are other posts arguing against my posts I'm will not be responding. It won't be because the person has so called defeated me(HK members love to play the defeated him game) with his superior argument and I have given up; but because the thread and the topic has reached it conclusion. All points of view are clear on both sides and we obviously disagree.

I will pray for members and as always will wish you well.HK

[Nirali]

The replies by the devotees were not to hurt your feelings or offend you....I belive that they were only saying 'give up meat etc' so that YOU dont have to pay back in your next life...i'm talking about karma....

 

They are just looking out for you Allen please dont take it to heart if someone keeps on saying the same thing over and over again and you start getting tired of it...its the same with parents isnt it...they will keep on saying 1 thing over n over n over again to the child...like eat broccoli everyday because its good for the health....The parents wont get anything out of telling the child to eat broccoli but INSTEAD it will help the child because its good for the health...

 

Am sorry if you think i am interfering in your thread etc...i dont mean to offend you...just want you to know that Lord Krishna's devotees only want the wellfare of others and they love everyone because Lord Krishna is within the heart of every soul....

 

Jay Shree Krishna

[Airicky]

Why bother? He admits his intent was to show how messed up everyone is and that he has the answer to save the movement. Just read the first paragraph of his last post above this one. He doesn't care what we think and he obviously doesn't want to stop eating meat; if he actually does (is that also part of the game?) It was all a game to create a ruckus. It was a powerplay.

 

Complete waste.