Gayatri Mantra and knowledge

[shiva]

 

Believe what you will. The words of our acaryas speak for themselves, and their evaluations of what the brahma gayatri and kama gayatri and other mantras mean, accomplish and what ersults they yield have more weight than your intellectualization of the topic. BTW under whose guidance do you practice KC?

 

I'm sorry if I'm being too intellectual for you, there are others besides you who read this forum, maybe they can understand. I don't really "practice" anymore since I've learned all the chords by heart and know all the lyrics backwords and forwards. But hey that's me, practice makes perfect, so keep it up and one day you'll get it down.

[Guest guest]

lol Shiva!! You cool man. Make sense. Like you said there are others reading the posts too!! Welll said!

The guy couldn't explain kripa!

 

 

 

I'm sorry if I'm being too intellectual for you, there are others besides you who read this forum, maybe they can understand. I don't really "practice" anymore since I've learned all the chords by heart and know all the lyrics backwords and forwards. But hey that's me, practice makes perfect, so keep it up and one day you'll get it down.

[Guest guest]

 

. I don't really "practice" anymore since I've learned all the chords by heart and know all the lyrics backwords and forwards. )

Action speaks louder than precept. So much for your theories regarding devotional service, and acceptance of guidance from any sad guru. Krpa of the guru can one day be realized and understood by someone who actually develops Krsna prema. So sorry that I am still unqualified to offer you any explanation beyond the words of our acaryas. They have actual realization of guru krpa so they can explain it. Your observations are proof positive that it is impossible to understand shastra without the guidance of a siksa guru.

[Guest guest]

This is a tal fruit discussion and sraddha (faith) and krpa (mercy) are not topics that can be debated on an internet forum in any way that will benefit anyone. Either you have faith in devotional practices from performing them "adau-sraddha, tatah sadhu sanga" and by asociation with sadhus, or you don't because you don't associate and/or practice. Simple enough.

 

 

 

The amount of knowledge covered by "divya-jnana, Krsna tattva and jiva tattva" is enormous. The gayatri mantra refers to madhurya rasa but it doesn't give much actual information. Anyone can have an actual personal relationship with Sri Radha Krishna without ever once chanting a gayatri mantra, and also you can chant the gayatri mantra for years on end and still be without an actual personal relationship with Sri Radha Krishna.

 

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami doesn't agree with you.The specific topic of chanting the maha mantra and the simultaneous necessity for receiving diksa-mantras from a bona fide sad-guru is explained succinctly in Srila Visvanatha Cakravati Thakura’s book “Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu as follows:

 

“It is seen in the shastras in connection with the glories of bhagavan-nama that there is so much potency in the Lord’s name that even without undergoing diksa, purificatory ceremonies (sat-kriya), or prepatory rites (purasacarya), harinama is competent to produce results as soon as it comes in contact with the tongue. This is expressed in the following statement of Sri Laksmidhara cited from Padyavali (29):

 

akrstih krta-cetasam sumahatam uccatanam cahasam

acandalam amuka-loka sulabho vasyas ca moksa sriyah

no diksam na ca daksinam na ca purascaryam mangiksate

mantro ‘yam rasanaspregeva phalati sri krsna-namatmakah

 

This mahamantra, composed of the names of Sri Krsna, is so astonishingly powerful and accessible that it yields fruit as soon as it touches the tongue. Because it attracts even liberated souls who are purified at heart and whose desires are fully satiated, this mantra is supreme in its power of subjugation. It eradicates great sins which could not e destroyed by Yajna, yoga, tapa, dana and other means. Because it can be chanted anywhere at any time, it is so easily available that even candalas (dog-eaters) or anyone who is not mute can chant it. By its causeless mercy, it submits itself to a person who merely desires to chant. The rare wealth of moksa runs behind to serve it. Unlike other mantras, the chanting of this mahamantra is not dependent on receiving diksa from a guru, moral conduct, or prepatory rites.

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami, in discussing this topic in the Bhakti-sandarbha (238), has said that in spite of the statements in the sastras as to the autonomous potency of the holy name, the previous mahajanas such as Sri Narada and so on first accepted diksa from their gurus and then performed their sadhana and bhajana in worship of their istadeva (the beloved deity of their heart). Similarly, those who desire to follow in the footsteps of those mahapurusas must also accept diksa in bhagavad-mantra from Sri Gurudeva, because without accepting diksa, one’s relationship with Bhagavan as dasya, sakhya, and so on cannot be awakened. That relationship is established only by the lotus feet of Sri Guru. The custom of diksa was honored by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers, the Gosvami. It is prevalent even today in their followers.

 

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has clearly said that those persons who have abandoned the pursuits of karma-yoga, jnan yoga, japa, tapa, and othe processes of sadhana, who have accepted Bhagavan as their istadeva and who are engaged in sravana,kirtanam and smarna of bhagvan-nama, but who have not accepted diksa from a Vaisnava guru according to the Vaisnava regulations, cannot attain the Supreme Lord. They will merely be prevented from entering hell, or in their next birth, by the influence of the bhajana performed from the previous life, they will obtain sadhu-sanga. By then taking shelter at the lotus feet of a guru, receiving diksa from him and making advancement through the different stages of bhakti, they can attain the Supreme Lord.”

 

Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu

pp. 52-53

excerpted from

(2) Sri Krsna-diksa-siksadi

(Receiving initiation and spiritual instructions)

 

So indeed all jivas have an eternal relationship with Radha and Krsna but according to Srila Jiva Gosvami "That relationship is established only by the lotus feet of Sri Guru." Simple enough. No guru, no bhakti, no prema, no nothing, just speculation and doubt.

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami, in discussing this topic in the Bhakti-sandarbha (238), has said that in spite of the statements in the sastras as to the autonomous potency of the holy name, the previous mahajanas such as Sri Narada and so on first accepted diksa from their gurus and then performed their sadhana and bhajana in worship of their istadeva (the beloved deity of their heart). Similarly, those who desire to follow in the footsteps of those mahapurusas must also accept diksa in bhagavad-mantra from Sri Gurudeva, because without accepting diksa, one’s relationship with Bhagavan as dasya, sakhya, and so on cannot be awakened. That relationship is established only by the lotus feet of Sri Guru. The custom of diksa was honored by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers, the Gosvami. It is prevalent even today in their followers.

Thank you!

[theist]

Srila Jiva Gosvami, in discussing this topic in the Bhakti-sandarbha (238), has said that in spite of the statements in the sastras as to the autonomous potency of the holy name, the previous mahajanas such as Sri Narada and so on first accepted diksa from their gurus and then performed their sadhana and bhajana in worship of their istadeva (the beloved deity of their heart). Similarly, those who desire to follow in the footsteps of those mahapurusas must also accept diksa in bhagavad-mantra from Sri Gurudeva, because without accepting diksa, one’s relationship with Bhagavan as dasya, sakhya, and so on cannot be awakened. That relationship is established only by the lotus feet of Sri Guru. The custom of diksa was honored by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers, the Gosvami. It is prevalent even today in their followers.

This has always bothered me. I have no faith in this statement by Jiva Gosvami. Rather I am right or wrong I am just being honest. I would find it helpful to hear it discussed by others here.

[Puru_Das]

<center>

The Absolute Necessity of Second Initiation

 

</center><center>by Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

</center>Hilo, Hawaii: January 13, 2003

 

[srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja spent the week of January 11-17 in Hilo, Hawaii, enlightening his audience of two hundred fifty on the topics of guru-tattva and the gradual development of devotion for Sri Krsna. Meanwhile, as sometimes occurs, certain individuals, in an attempt to disinterest others from attending Srila Narayana Maharaja's classes, were engaged in passing out copies of a paper. This time the paper was written on the subject of the relative necessity of harinama initiation (first initiation) and diksa (second initiation). The paper tried its level best to prove that Srila Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja and Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja have a different view on the subject than Srila Narayana Maharaja. If this were true, it would place Srila Narayana Maharaja outside the disciplic line of his predecessor acaryas. When Srila Narayana Maharaja became aware of this attempt to show a difference between them, he gave the following class and clearly showed that the three above-mentioned acaryas are exactly in the same line. They are all saying, in fact, that the acceptance of the diksa mantras is essential.]

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] In my classes I have been explaining the meaning of bhakti and I have explained how we can gradually achieve it, beginning from the smallest fraction of bhakti called sraddha. We discussed many points, among which was the necessity for guru-padasraya and diksa. In the meantime, a topic has arisen that I want to clarify. You should very carefully and seriously hear this very important subject matter. First Sripad Padmanabha Maharaja will present the argument and then I will reply it.

[sripad Padmanabha Maharaja:] There is a question concerning the relationship between gayatri-mantra (diksa) and harinama initiation. Some persons have presented quotes from Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada and Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja in order to present the idea, based upon their own understanding, that harinama is complete and sufficient in itself for the conditioned soul, and that initiation into the gayatri mantra is not actually required for him. I will read their quotations, and then Srila Maharaja will explain the conclusive philosophical understandings. First of all they quote Srila Prabhupada in a room conversation in 1973 in Paris, where he says, "Chanting the Hare-Krsna maha-mantra. Then, as he practices, he becomes more purified. Then second initiation – gayatri mantra. The first initiation, according to Jiva Gosvami, that is sufficient. Chanting the Hare Krsna mantra, that is sufficient. But still, to purify them more, the second initiation, gayatri, is given." That is one quote.

Then they quote Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja in his book Sri Guru and his Grace. There he says, "We accept the mantra only to help the nama bhajana, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise it may not be necessary at all. It has been judged in such a way. The name alone can do everything for a person; it is full and complete. The gayatri mantra helps us to do away with the aparadhas (offenses) and the abhasa or hazy conception. The gayatri mantra comes to help us only so far."

With these two quotations these persons have attempted to support their statement that it is not actually completely essential or necessary for us conditioned souls to accept the gayatri mantra – diksa – because harinama is sufficient. They have also suggested that Srila Narayana Maharaja is saying something contrary to Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhar Maharaja. I am also reading the two statements they have quoted from Srila Narayana Maharaja. The first is from his book, Going Beyond Vaikuntha: "Without the gopala-mantra and the kama-gayatri, will our sadhana be complete with only the nama-sankirtana? No, because by nama-sankirtana alone we will not be able to chant suddha-nama, the pure name of Krsna." The second quotation they cited is from a lecture given by Srila Narayana Maharaja on the topic of Sri Bhajana Rahasya: "Everything is there, but don't think that we can realize all this by chanting krsna-nama alone. We must chant harinama and gayatri-mantra as well. If we want full understanding and realization of what is in the Hare Krsna mantra, we must also chant the gayatri mantras.

I want to request Srila Narayana Maharaja to kindly give the proper philosophical conclusions, so that everyone can understand clearly the position of gayatri-mantra initiation and harinama initiation, and their relationship.

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] I think you have all understood the argument; now you should try very carefully to understand the reply so that you can reconcile all the statements. Someone has presented the idea that the acceptance of diksa is not essential, and he has indirectly indicated the verse:

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

["One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus, even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered."]

The holy name is sufficient. The holy name is very powerful and can fulfill all desires. The name will even give vraja-prema. What, then, is the need of taking initiation? The paper has quoted my statement, along with the statement of Prapujya-carana Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja; so I want to reconcile all statements.

It is true that diksa-purascarya (initiation and the purificatory activities performed before initiation) is not needed in all circumstances; but we should know something about the actual meaning of this verse. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada has written a book of rules and regulations in deity worship called Arcana Dipika, and there he has explained that harinama is bhagavata-svarupa, the actual form of Krsna and Radha, and for this reason it is stated in Sri Siksastakam, "Param vijayate sri krsna-sankirtana." By chanting and remembering Krsna's names, all kinds of perfection — like vraja-prema and even radha-dasya (becoming a maid servant of Srimati Radhika) — can be attained. In the first stage, however, when a devotee is uttering the holy name he is full with many aparadhas, and also anarthas such as laya (sleep), viksepa (distraction), apratipatti (indifference or disinterest in spiritual topics), and so on. It is guaranteed that such a person cannot utter the pure name. Rather, his chanting will be nama-aparadha. Chanting the pure name is only possible after the diksa-samskara.

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat kuryat papasya sanksayam

tasmat dikseti sa prokta desikais tattva-kovidaih

["Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa." (quoted in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta: Madhya 15. 108 purport)]

The gayatri-mantra gives all kinds of divya-jnana, transcendental knowledge, including the knowledge of krsna-tattva and jiva-tattva, and it also gives a relationship with Krsna. Nama alone will not give this relation to the person filled with anarthas. All of our acaryas, from top to bottom, have stated that in order to purify us from our sinful actions and to clear offenses (anartha-nrvrtti) so that we can develop the ability to chant the pure name, we must accept diksa-vidhana (the process of initiation). Di — ksa. Di means divya-jnana, or realized knowledge of our relationship with Krsna. Ksa is the washing away of all sins, aparadhas, and other impurities. For this, diksa-vidhana is essential. Without diksa-samskara, one's relationship with Krsna (sambandha-jnana) cannot manifest and one cannot chant suddha-nama. It is essential to accept diksa.

yatha kancanatam yati

kamsyam rasa-vidhanatah

tatha diksa-vidhanena

dvijatvam jayate nrnam

["As bell metal (a mixture of copper and tin) becomes gold by mixing with mercury, similarly, by the process of diksa, initiation, a person becomes a brahmana."( Sri Hari-bhakti-vilasa)]

Bell metal turns into gold by the help of the element mercury in an al-chemical process. Similarly, by this element, the process of diksa, our chanting of the holy name will become pure; otherwise it is not possible.

If there is no necessity to accept diksa-mantra, why did Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada take second initiation from Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji Maharaja, and why did he give diksa initiation to all of his disciples? Parama-pujyapada Srila Sridhara Gosvami Maharaja also took diksa from him. If there is no necessity, why did Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura give diksa initiation, and why did his disciples accept it?

Not only that, Brahma received kama-gayatri and Gopal-mantra from Krsna Himself. Brahma then gave the diksa-mantra to Sri Narada Rsi, and Narada gave it to so many disciples. Narada not only gave harinama to Dhruva Maharaja; he gave him diksa by the mantra: om namo bhagavate vasudevaya. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu took initiation from Sri Isvara Puripada, who first gave Him harinama, and to purify that chanting of nama, he gave Him Gopal-mantra. Gopal-mantra is transcendental and ever-existing, and it gives a relationship with Krsna as Gopijana-vallabha. We should consider all this evidence.

All the acaryas in our guru-parampara have accepted second initiation from a bona fide guru. Can those who say that harinama is sufficient for conditioned souls name any acarya in our guru-parampara who has not taken diksa initiation? Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, and the Six Gosvamis took second initiation, and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada took it. Why did they take diksa initiation if it is not essential? You should know the gravity of this truth. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Sri Nityananda Prabhu, Sri Advaita Acarya, Sri Gadadhara Pandita, Sri Isvara Puri, and Sri Madhavendra Puri have all taken diksa. Why, then, should we not take it? Why is it not essential? If it is not essential, then why did Sri Sanatana Gosvami write about it in his Sri Hari-bhakti-vilasa? Why did Sri Gopal Bhatta Gosvami also write about it? Did he say it was useless? Those who say that diksa is not essential will not be able to answer these questions in hundreds and millions of years.

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu took initiation even though he is the Lord of lords — Radha and Krsna combined — and yet He went to Gaya and took initiation. He vividly explained this fact in a gathering of sannyasis in Kasi when those sannyasis asked Him, "O, You are a very young and qualified sannyasi. Why do you not hear Vedanta? Why do you engage in singing and dancing and rolling on the ground? A sannyasi should not dance and do all these things." Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied by telling them of the order of His guru, Sri Isvara Puripada:

Mahaprabhu said, "Guru mora murkha dekhi — My Guru Maharaja told me that because I am foolish and unintelligent, I am not qualified to study Vedanta. He said that instead I should always chant Hare Krsna and I should remember this verse:

harer nama harer nama

harer namaiva kevalam

kalau nasty eva nasty eva

nasty eva gatir anyatha

(Caitanya Caritamrta Adi-lila 17.21)

["In this Age of Kali there is no other means, no other means, no other means for self-realization than chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name of Lord Hari."]

But Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu not only took harinama from His gurudeva; He also took second initiation through the Gopal-mantra. In our parampara, in order to purify one's chanting and to and give the chanter a relationship with Krsna who has kindly taken the form of His holy name, the Gopal-mantra is given along with harinama. Up until Caitanya Mahaprabhu's manifested pastimes only the Gopal-mantra was given. Later, Srila Dhyanacandra Gosvami and Srila Gopal-guru Gosvami gave the regulations we now follow. They gave brahma-gayatri, guru-mantra, guru-gayatri, gaura-mantra, gaura-gayatri, krsna-mantra (Gopal-mantra) and finally kama-gayatri. This is the process followed in our sampradaya as begun by Srila Gopal-guru Gosvami, who is a disciple of Vakresvara Pandita, who is an associate of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Caitanya Mahaprabhu quoted His gurudeva saying, "Krsna-mantra japa sada — ei mantra-sara. You must always chant the holy name of Krsna. This is the essence of all mantras, or Vedic hymns."

krsna-mantra haite habe samsara-mocana

krsna-nama haite pabe krsnera carana

["Simply by chanting the holy name of Krsna one can obtain freedom from material existence. Indeed, simply by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra one will be able to see the lotus feet of the Lord."]

The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. But that name must be the pure name, and how will it become so? It can only become pure through that diksa process; otherwise it is not possible. It is not that the holy name is not pure, but if a person is not a pure devotee he cannot chant the pure name. He can only chant syllables that sound like the name. He can only chant offenses to the name (nama-aparadha) or a shadow of the name (nama-abhasa). Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu chanted the pure name, and therefore He was able to tell His gurudeva:

kiba mantra dila, gosani, kiba tara bala

japite japite mantra karila pagala

["'My dear lord, what kind of mantra have you given Me? I have become mad simply by chanting this maha-mantra!'"(Caitanya-caritamrta Adi 7.81)]

Caitanya Mahaprabhu told the sannyasis, "You ask why I dance and sing and roll on the ground. Here is the reason: When My gurudeva initiated me, he gave me both the harinama mantra and the gopal mantra." Then He said, "japite japite mantra." If He had only received harinama, the maha-mantra, He would not have said the word "mantra"? Mantra especially refers to Gopal-mantra and kama-gayatri. He first received harinama and then gopal-mantra. "Japite japite mantra karila pagala — and this made Me mad. Krsna nama mantra — meaning gopal and maha mantra made Him "like a madman".

For those who always remember and meditate on the gopal-mantra and kama-gayatri, by the power of the mantra, rati (bhava-bhakti) will at once enter their hearts. It has been written in Caitanya-caritamrta: Antya-lila 4.192:

diksa-kale bhakta kare atma-samarpana

sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama

["At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself."]

First initiation is called harinama initiation only, and the second initiation is called diksa. Atma samarpana — at the time of diksa the disciple totally surrenders unto the feet of his gurudeva. Sei-kale. At that time Krsna gives the shelter of His lotus feet, and He makes that disciple atma-sama, very near and dear to Him.

According to the Vaisnava regulative principles, one must be initiated as a brahmana. As quoted in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.6) from the Visnu-yamala, Lord Sankara says to his wife Parvati:

adiksitasya vamoru krtam sarvam nirarthakam

pasu-yonim avapnoti diksa-virahito janah

"O Vamaru — O beautiful Parvati. Regarding those who have not taken diksa, all their devotional activities, such as sadhana, bhajana, and puja, have all gone in vain. They are all useless. Such persons who are not properly initiated must again enter the many animals species."

In addition, it has been told that nama can give everything, including Krsna-prema, simply by touching the tongue. It is stated in Padyavali, a book compiled by Srila Rupa Gosvami:

akrstih krta-cetasam su-manasam uccatanam camhasam

acandalam amuka-loka-sulabho vasyas ca mukti-sriyah

no diksam na ca sat-kriyam na ca purascaryam manag iksate

mantro 'yam rasana-sprg eva phalati sri-krsna-namatmakah

["'The holy name of Lord Krsna is an attractive feature for many saintly, liberal people. It is the annihilator of all sinful reactions and is so powerful that, save for the dumb who cannot chant it, it is readily available to everyone, including the lowest type of man, the candala. The holy name of Krsna is the controller of the opulence of liberation, and it is identical with Krsna. When a person simply chants the holy name with his tongue, immediate effects are produced. Chanting the holy name does not depend on initiation, pious activities or the purascarya regulative principles generally observed before initiation. The holy name does not wait for any of these activities. It is self-sufficient.'"(quoted in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 15.110]

Can this occur if one's chanting is not pure? This is the question that has been raised here. Can this occur without diksa? In the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (17.4-5, 7) it is stated:

vina yena na siddhah syan mantro varsa-satair api

krtena yena labhate sadhako vanchitam phalam

purascarana-sampanno mantro hi phala-dhayakah

atah puraskriyam kuryat mantra-vit siddhi-kanksaya

puraskriya hi mantranam pradhanam viryam ucyate

virya-hino yatha dehi sarva-karmasu na ksamah

purascarana-hino hi tatha mantrah prakirtitah

["Without performing the purascarya activities, one cannot become perfect even by chanting this mantra for hundreds of years. But one who has undergone the purascarya-vidhi process can attain success very easily. If one wishes to perfect his initiation, he must first undergo the purascarya activities. The purascarya process is the life force by which one is successful in chanting the mantra. Without the life force, one cannot do anything; similarly, without the life force of purascarya-vidhi, no mantra can be perfected." (quoted in Srila Prabhupada's purport to Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 15.108)]

Srila Jiva Gosvami has quoted a verse, in order to further dissolve any misunderstanding in this regard. In his Bhakti-sandarbha (283-84), Srila Jiva Gosvami describes the importance of Deity worship and initiation (diksa) as follows:

avasyakatvam nasti, tad vinapi saranapattyadinam ekatarenapi purusartha-siddher abhihitatvat, tathapi sri-naradadi-vartmanusaradbhih sri-bhagavata saha sambandha-visesam diksa-vidhanena sri-guru-carana-sampaditam cikirsadbhih krtayam diksayam arcanam avasyam kriyetaiva.

yadyapi svarupato nasti, tathapi prayah svabhavato dehadi-sambandhena kadarya-silanam viksipta-cittanam jananam tat-tat-sankoci-karanaya srimad-rsi-prabhrtibhir atrarcana-marge kvacit kvacit kacit kacin maryada sthapitasti.

["It is Srimad-Bhagavatam's opinion that the process of Deity worship is not actually necessary, just as the specific prescriptions of the Pancaratra and other scriptures do not have to be followed. The Bhagavatam enjoins that even without practicing Deity worship one can achieve the complete success of human life by any of the other devotional processes, such as simply offering oneself at the Lord's feet for His protection. Nonetheless Vaisnavas, following the path of Sri Narada and his successors, endeavor to establish a personal relationship with the Lord by receiving the grace of a bona fide spiritual master through initiation, and in this tradition the devotees are obliged at the time of initiation to begin engaging in Deity worship.

"Although Deity worship is not essential, the material conditioning of most candidates for devotional service requires that they engage in this activity. When we consider their bodily and mental conditions, we find that the character of such candidates is impure and their minds are agitated. Therefore, to rectify this material conditioning the great sage Narada and others have at different times recommended various kinds of regulations for Deity worship." (quoted in Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 15.108 purport)]

Simply by the tongue touching the Krsna-mantra, that holy name gives all kinds of perfection, including krsna-dasya and radha dasya. But Srila Jiva Gosvami has written a very clear commentary to this verse, and you should note this down in your heart for continual remembrance. In his Bhakti-sandarbha (283) he has written:

dvijanam anupetanam svakarmadhyayanadisu

yathadhikaro nastiha syac copanayanad anu

tathatradiksitanam tu mantra-devarcanadisu

nadhikaro 'sty atah kuryad atmanam siva-samstutam

["Even though born in a brahmana family, one cannot engage in Vedic rituals without being initiated and having a sacred thread. Although born in a brahmana family, one becomes a brahmana only after initiation and the sacred thread ceremony. Unless one is initiated as a brahmana, one cannot worship the holy name properly." (quoted in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta Madhya 15.108)] [see Endnote]

It is true that simply by touching the tongue krsna-nama can give everything, but the material tongue, the tongue of the conditioned soul cannot touch the transcendental holy name.

atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih

sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah

["With the material senses one cannot understand the transcendental holy name of the Lord or His form, activities and pastimes. But when one actually engages in devotional service, utilizing the tongue, the Lord is revealed." Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu 1.2.234)]

Sri Narada Muni, and other previous acaryas like Brahma, Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatana, and Sanat Kumar, have all taken diksa. One receives diksa and then he performs his sadhana bhajana and worships his istadeva (worshipful deity), Radha and Krsna. Srila Jiva Gosvami has written that without diksa there will be no relationship with Krsna — neither, dasya, sakya, vatsalya nor madhurya. It will never be possible without diksa. In our sampradaya, sambandha-jnana comes only by uttering "gopijana-vallabhaya"; otherwise it cannot come.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has written an explanation of this same verse, and therein he vividly explains that one may have given up all kinds of sadhana and pious activities. He may be chanting and remembering the holy names of Bhagavan and he may have determined that his Istadeva is Krsna. Still, if he has not taken initiation from a Vaisnava guru, thinking that it is not essential, he can never achieve Krsna. The only good result he achieves is that he will not go to hell. He cannot achieve the lotus feet of Krsna, in any life, until he is properly initiated. In a future life, by the fruit of his previous activities of bhajana, he will take birth in a very religious family and there he will have sadhu-sanga, guru padasraya, and then diksa. At that time he will make solid advancement in bhakti. This is the only way.

Also, Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami has written in the first verse of his Sri Manah-Siksa:

Gurau gosthe gostalayisu sujane bhusura-gane

sva-mantre sri -namni vraja-nava-yuva-dvandva-sarane

sada dambham hitva kuru ratim apurvam atitara-

maye svantar bhratas catubhir abhiyace dhrta-padah

["O my dear brother my foolish mind! Taking hold of your feet, I humbly pray to you with sweet words. Please give up all pride and quickly develop sublime and incessant rati for Sri Gurudeva, Sri Vraja-dhama, the residents of Vraja, the Vaisnavas, the brahmanas, my diksa-mantras, the holy names of the Supreme Lord, and the shelter of Kisora-Kisori, Sri Sri Radha-Krsna, the eternally youthful divine couple of Vraja."]

Why has he said "mantra" if diksa initiation is not necessary? Why he has not said only "Sri namni"? What is sva-mantra? There is some difference between mantra and harinama, and that is why he has told his mind, "You should develop sublime and unprecedented attachment for both. Take shelter of nama and mantra, and then your life will be successful." So there are two things – not one. Srila Raghunatha has written, '"Sada dambham hitva kuru ratim apurvam – O mind, you should give up your false pride and try to develop sublime and unprecedented attachment for both." His guru gave him mantra, and that is diksa.

We should now reconcile all these things.

[Endnote: The quote of Srila Prabhupada speaking in Paris in 1973, as quoted by Sripad Padmanabha Maharaja in the beginning of this lecture, refers to this verse of Srila Jiva Gosvami.]

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[shiva]

I have to disagree with anyone who says that diksa is absolutely necessary. We are told many times by the acaryas that it is helpful (better to be initiated then not) but that it is not required.

 

From Jiva Goswami's Sri Bhakti-sandarbha. Here he talks about the necessity of mantra diksa in order to engage in deity worship i.e he says that deity worship is important for ordinary householders because they are generally engrossed in worldly affairs. Because you cannot worship the deity without mantra diksa (gayatri initiation) he makes it a point of advising householders on the importance of mantra diksa so they can engage in deity worship and by doing so establish a relationship with the Lord.

 

 

Now will be considered worship of the Lord (arcana), which begins with the invitation (avahana) to the Lord to appear. If one has faith in the path of worship, one should take shelter of a bona fide spiritual master and ask questions of him. This is described in these words of Srimad Bhagavatam (11.3.48):

 

"Having obtained the mercy of his spiritual master, who reveals to the disciple the injunctions of Vedic scriptures, the devotee should worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the particular personal form of the Lord the devotee finds most attractive."

 

Although in the opinion of Srimad-Bhagavatam the path of worshipping the Deity, as it is described in the Pancaratras and other scriptures, is not compulsory, and without engaging in Deity worship one may attain the final goal of life by engaging in even only one of the nine processes of devotional service, processes that begin with surrender, nevertheless, in the opinion of they who follow the path of Narada Muni and other great sages, by accepting initiation from a bona fide spiritual master one attains a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a relationship established through the feet of one's spiritual master, and when one is thus initiated, the process of Deity worship is compulsory.

 

Therefore in the Agama-sastra it is said:

 

"Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures know this process as diksa.*

 

"It is the duty of every human being to surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Giving him everything: body, mind and intelligence, one must take a Vaisnava initiation from him."*

 

The words "divyam jnanam" (transcendental knowledge) here refers to the descriptions of the Lord's transcendental form in sacred mantras. Chanting those mantras establishes a relationship with the Supreme Lord. This is explained in the Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda's description of the eight-syllable mantra. Thus for wealthy householders the path of Deity worship is most important.

 

The sages tell Maharaja Vasudeva (Srimad Bhagavatam 10.84.37):

 

"This is the most auspicious path of progress for a religious householder of the twice-born orders: to faithfully worship the Personality of Godhead with his uncontaminated possessions which have been acquired by just means"....

 

....To chant the holy name of the Lord one need not depend upon other paraphernalia, for one can immediately get all the desired results of connecting or linking with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It may therefore be questioned why there is a necessity for further spiritual activities in devotional service for one who engages in the chanting of the holy name of the Lord.

 

The answer is that although it is correct that one who fully engages in chanting the holy name need not depend upon the process of initiation, generally a devotee is addicted to many abominable material habits due to material contamination from his previous life. In order to get quick relief from all these contaminations, it is required that one engage in the worship of the Lord in the temple. The worship of the Deity in the temple is essential to reduce one's restlessness due to the contaminations of conditional life. Thus Narada in his pancaratriki vidhi, and other great sages have sometimes stressed that since every conditioned soul has a bodily concept of life aimed at sense enjoyment the rules and regulations for worshipping the Deity in the temple are essential.

 

In the Ramarcana-candrika it is said of Lord Ramacandra:

 

"Among Vaisnava-mantras, the Rama-mantra is the best. The Rama-mantra is millions and millions of times more effective than Ganesa-mantras or mantras for the other demigods.

 

O king of brahmanas, even if one is not initiated and has not performed either purascarya of nyasa, he can attain perfection simply by chanting the Rama-mantra."

 

 

From Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu Madhya 24.331:

 

 

diksha-purascarya-vidhi apeksha na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

 

One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

From Srila Prabhupada purport Madhya 15.108:

 

 

In the words of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi 7.73):

 

krsna-mantra haite habe samsara-mocana

krsna-nama haite pabe krsnera carana

 

"Simply by chanting the holy name of Krsna one can obtain freedom from material existence. Indeed, simply by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra one will be able to see the lotus feet of the Lord."

 

The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. Although initiation may depend on purascarya or purascarana, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on purascarya-vidhi, or the regulative principles. If one chants the holy name even once without committing an offense, he attains all success. During the chanting of the holy name, the tongue must work. Simply by chanting the holy name, one is immediately delivered. The tongue is sevonmukha-jihva -- it is controlled by service. One whose tongue is engaged in tasting material things and also talking about them cannot use the tongue for absolute realization.

Puru Das/Siddhanta you quoted this from Srila Narayana Maharaja:

 

 

The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. But that name must be the pure name, and how will it become so? It can only become pure through that diksa process; otherwise it is not possible.

That's an illogical and contradictory statement. How can the first part be true? i.e "The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process" when it contradicts the second part? i.e "It can only become pure through that diksa process".

 

That statement is self contradictory. It's one or the other, it cannot be both.

 

I wrote this a few years ago:

 

 

I was reading at a website of an ex iskcon guy from back in the 60's recently. While he was in India he became involved with other traditions within the Chaitanya school. He concluded that the power of a mantra is only present when it is received within a chain of gurus, anyone outside that chain who doesn't receive the mantra from that succession is receiving a dead mantra.

 

In other words he claims, as I guess many others do outside of the Gaudiya school, that if you attempt to connect to God through a mantra, God will not respond to that endeavor unless you received that mantra from baba booie such and such, who in turn received it from his guru baba louie and on and on.

 

In this conception we have the power of the mantra not within the control of God, but rather within the control of humans. In effect they are saying God is subordinate to the mantra, and more importantly, God's potency is subordinate to them. In this conception the mantra is not effective unless touched and transmitted by humans. Therefore the mantra cannot have power in and of itself. God is forbidden from empowering the mantra. He is locked out by the human chain of command.

 

In this way they have fashioned a theory of disciplic succession which conveniently leaves out all those who are not submitting to them as being keepers of the secret, as being fakes.

 

This is their central argument, if you are not connected to them, then your mantra is ineffective due to God having his hands tied, God needs a permission slip from some mantra wallah in Calcutta or Radha Kunda.

 

In various discussions from various schools of thought we often hear of the concept of the necessity of receiving the gayatri mantras from a preceptor in a lineage of mahants in order to delve into or receive the proper result desired, i.e such and such rasa.

 

Is this really the case? Is a person's rasa with Radha Krishna dependent on receiving a specific mantra in a specific way from a specific person?

 

My understanding is that the mantra is a tool for meditation. The revelations do not come from the mantra itself. By that I mean that Bhagavan is the revelator, independent of any rules concerning mantras. Bhagavan is revealing knowledge or not, with a specific mantra or without. Any mantra is subordinate to Bhagavan. And therefore a mantra is empty words unless Bhagavan participates in the mantra. No chain of command or person has the ability to empower a mantra. The empowerment of a mantra is not like a magical incantation, rather it is the Lord manifesting knowledge or experience to the sadhaka by divine choice, regardless of any other consideration.

 

The concept of the necessity of specific mantras from specific sources to realize a desired goal negates the role of the divine will. The divine will is made subordinate to a formulaic method of revelation, a magical incantation. By that I mean the divine will is the only thing which can reveal or hide desired jnana or experience. The formulaic idea is the same as that of the magical incantation which puts the power of the mantra squarely in the hands of the chanter. He will receive the desired goal if he follows the methodology given and will not receive the desired goal without that carefully followed methodology.

 

This is the magical or alchemical or kabbalistic approach to the divine. The belief that the divine will can be controlled by our actions or inactions is the essence of the magical, mystic alchemical path. Which posits our ability to control our own destiny based on our manipulation of words or concepts within our mind.

 

My understanding is that all revelation is divine providence. Regardless of any attempt utilizing mantra or tantra or any other esoteric tool. The reality is that we exist under the autocratic rule of the divine will and desire. In this concept any mantra or sadhana is essentially unnecessary if the divine will desires, or conversely, absolutely necessary if the divine will desires. The basic premise is that there are no absolute rules for revelation. Revelation is independent of all forms or systems utilizing the ascending process prescribed in any methodology from any school of mysticism or religion.

 

Of course there are those who will insist that the mantra is non different from the divine. With them I differ. The mantra is a tool of the divine, but the divine is not subordinate to the mantra. Just like if you insist that the mantra must be empowered by a guru, I also will insist that the mantra is not empowered itself but rather it is the divine will that is the relevant potency. Being an autocrat and supremely independent the divine will can do as it likes and all formulas are subordinate to this conception.

 

My understanding is that the empowered mantra is non different from Bhagavan if it is the desire of of the divine. It is the divine will which is the actual potency and revealer of all truths and all reality of whatever type. The mantra is not to be understood as a separate principle having a separate potency from the divine potency it represents.

 

We shouldn't think of any mantra as being the actual potent factor, that would leave the Personality of Godhead as a subordinate potency to the mantra. The mantra is potent only due to the Personality of Godhead manifesting to the chanter, without that, the mantra is no different then any other words.

 

The mantra is not empowered by a line of succession. It is not empowered by humans. A mantra is effective if the supreme will desires, and it is not effective likewise. The mantra itself is nothing without the divine will, a humans touch is irrelevant.

 

Whenever sastra advises taking the mantra from a bona fide guru, it is not the mantra itself that is being empowered by that guru. Rather it is the conception, the teaching that the guru imparts that is important. The mantra will be effective or not regardless of it's source. But what is important is the philosophical teaching that the guru provides along with the mantra. In this way the sadhaka is given a mantra that is invested with potency due to the the context it is given in.

 

In this concept a person need not take the mantra in a formal initiation from a specific lineage of unbroken succession in order for the mantra to be effective. Anyone can read or hear the proper teachings of the mantra and the associated philosophy and the mantra will be effective. The potency is not in the line of succession itself. The potency is the divine will helped along by the associated jnana or philosophy.

 

There are those who want to be the gatekeepers of the higher reality and they will use the methodology of the occult master i.e. "I have the secret whatever and it is here in this mantra or spell, and it is only effective if it comes from me or my lineage, directly handed to you".

 

There are many non Gaudiya Caitanya Saraswat vaisnavas who believe exactly these concepts. They criticize and belittle all and anyone who is not receiving mantras from them. They teach that without their touch, the mantras have zero potency. As silly as this is, it has attracted more then a few people away from the Gaudiya Saraswat tradition.

[Puru_Das]

It is a useless proposal to discuss guru tattva with someone who has no faith in our guru parampara, and treats Krsna conscciousness like cafateria religion. Take this and reject that.

 

Regardless why should anyone who is sincerely searching for spiritual guidance accept your opinions, when you admit you don't practice, over that of a Vaisnava like Srila Narayana Maharaja,? He has been practicing bhakti-yoga his entire life,and chanting 64 rounds of suddha nama every day for more than 40 years. He has done scores of translations of important Vaisnava shastras from Sanskrit, and Bengali into Hindi, has opened numerous Gaudiya Vaisnava templs in Dehli, Nabadwipa, Calcutta, Durvasa, Govardhana, Los Angeles and at the age of 85 years still travels and preaches all over the world encouraging thousands of conditioned souls to hear and chant the Holy names, attend Nabadwipa and Vraja Mandala parikramas and understand how to make progress in spiritual life.

 

Everyone in this world has a ninth hole and an opinion. So why should anyone heed yours?

[Puru_Das]

 

Puru Das/you quoted this from Srila Narayana Maharaja:

That's an illogical and contradictory statement. How can the first part be true? i.e "The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process" when it contradicts the second part? i.e "It can only become pure through that diksa process".

That statement is self contradictory. It's one or the other, it cannot be both.:

There is no contradiction. This is a very simple point to understand. Impure chanting, nama aparadaha and nama abhasa can change gradually to suddha nama by the strength of devotional practices and the mercy of Sri guru. If someone is already chanting suddha nama then such gradual awakening of the Holy Name doesn't need to occur because it is already. The actual name (suddha nama) descends and is heard only from the lips of pure devotees. Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaha explains this point very nicely in an article posted afte this. Anyway, please consider the example of Srila Haridas Thakura, the namacarya of the Holy Name. He chanted suddha nama 20 hours a day, and we don't know who his diksa guru was, or if he had one. If you are not chanting hari nama with the same quality he did,if you are a conditioned soul and not a manifestation of Lord Brahma and/or Prahalda Mahraja, then you have to progress gradually to one day be able to chant suddha nama. A conditioned soul gets to that point by following the instructions of a sad guru, otherwise you can't imitate Srila Haridas Thakura and think you don't need to do anything to improve the quality of your hearing and chanting.

[Guest guest]

Puru has still got the same way of dealing with people

 

Years go by, but the attitudes are still the same. Same old ideas. Same mentality: "I'm a Prabhupada man and I can beat up on you because I'm senior"

 

Maybe you need to spend some time in Navadwipa and pray to Nitai Gauranga to ask for a little humility.

 

People such as shiva can express their ideas on this forum, even if they are not initiated or "Prabhupada men".

[Puru_Das]

Shiva is welcome to his opinions. Everyone is free to either accept or reject what our acaryas have written, spoken and taught. As I said I find forums contentious and unfriendly and just as freely as Shiva can express his opinions, I am free to reject them and accept other personalities who I have inifnite more trust and love for and believe are eminantly more qualified to explain guru, sadhu and shastra, in a way that actually benefits sadhakas (practitioners). Here is a wonderful article about the quality of chanting. Take it or leave it, as you wish.

Descent of the Holy Name

by Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaja

http://bvml.org/SBRSM/tdothn.html

Also, it is not a matter of anyone thinking he is better than anyone else because he was initiated. It is the responsibility of any disciple to encourage other like minded individuals seeking the absolute truth to contact a pure devotee and follow the angas of bhakti as given to us by Srila Rupa Gosvami. There are 64 in total and first two are very significant

(1) Sri-guru-padasraya

Taking shelter at the lotus feet of Sri Guru

(2)Sri-krsna-diksa-siksadi

receiving initiation and spiritual instructions

If you think you know better than Srila Rupa Gosvami, more power to you, but of what value or use is your opinion over his when it comes to how to practice Krsna Consciousness? Of course if you don't believe in tryng to follow the teachings of Srila Rupa Gosvami that is also your free will. You have plenty of company in this material world. In this regard I must certainly be in the minority, no matter.

[Guest guest]

I think I understand Theist and Shiva a little, and from what I understand they are not saying that they don't believe people should take initiation, but rather that they themselves haven't found anyone (since the departure of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad) who they fell they can fully have faith in. But this mentality that "such and such Maharaj has opened temples and has thousands of disciples and impeccible credentials" is all just words. When someone finds they feel faith in a Vaishnava they may ask for "divya jnana" and diksa from that Vaishnava - but people should not be cajoled into joining a particular sangha just because of the Maharaj having "impeccible credentials".

 

And of course when we talk about impeccible credentials, maybe we then start studying the credentials, and then we discover that the Maharaj has separated himself from Devananda and that there are some reasons why very few Indian-born Devananda devotees have left Devananda to be with the Maharaj in his new sangha.

[shiva]

 

I think I understand Theist and Shiva a little, and from what I understand they are not saying that they don't believe people should take initiation, but rather that they themselves haven't found anyone (since the departure of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad) who they fell they can fully have faith in.

Not quite. I was given Hari Nama diksa almost 30 years ago by a disciple of Srila Prabhupada (1978) and then mantra diksa a few years later by another disciple of Srila Prabhupada (both left Iskcon eventually).

 

I was just making philosophical conversation, I wasn't commenting on an inability to find suitable gurus.

[theist]

 

I think I understand Theist and Shiva a little, and from what I understand they are not saying that they don't believe people should take initiation, but rather that they themselves haven't found anyone (since the departure of Srila AC Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupad) who they fell they can fully have faith in.

Not exactly my position either. I do believe in the absolute necessity of intiation as in Christ's statement ; "Ye must be born again to enter the kingdom of God." He goes on to explain he is speaking of spiritual rebirth. Many Christians have come to think of baptism in water as the same as rebirth. They miss the point. Many Indian devotees make the same mistake when they take their fire sacrifices for intiation IMO.

It's not intiation or no intiation it is what is meant by intiation.

Apart from that I accept that the holy name is sufficent in itself to cleanse one's heart from all anartha's. I see everything else as secondary and as an helpful adjunct to the chanting of the holy name. Deity worship, service in the temple, preaching etc. are all helpful to one's chanting in that they if we can't chant 24 hrs. we can still do other things that are purifying to fill in the gaps.

What I reject is the idea that without gayatri one can never chant suddha-nama.

[Beggar]

 

There is no contradiction. This is a very simple point to understand. Impure chanting, nama aparadaha and nama abhasa can change gradually to suddha nama by the strength of devotional practices and the mercy of Sri guru. If someone is already chanting suddha nama then such gradual awakening of the Holy Name doesn't need to occur because it is already. The actual name (suddha nama) descends and is heard only from the lips of pure devotees. Srila Bhakti Raksak Sridhar Maharaha explains this point very nicely in an article posted afte this. Anyway, please consider the example of Srila Haridas Thakura, the namacarya of the Holy Name. He chanted suddha nama 20 hours a day, and we don't know who his diksa guru was, or if he had one. If you are not chanting hari nama with the same quality he did,if you are a conditioned soul and not a manifestation of Lord Brahma and/or Prahalda Mahraja, then you have to progress gradually to one day be able to chant suddha nama. A conditioned soul gets to that point by following the instructions of a sad guru, otherwise you can't imitate Srila Haridas Thakura and think you don't need to do anything to improve the quality of your hearing and chanting.

.

Apart from that I accept that the holy name is sufficent in itself to cleanse one's heart from all anartha's. I see everything else as secondary and as an helpful adjunct to the chanting of the holy name. Deity worship, service in the temple, preaching etc. are all helpful to one's chanting in that they if we can't chant 24 hrs. we can still do other things that are purifying to fill in the gaps.

What I reject is the idea that without gayatri one can never chant suddha-nama.

Exactly, Theist, obviously Srila Hari das Thakur was chanting suddha name without chanting gayatri mantra but he is a "manifestation of Lord Brahma and/or Prahalda Mahraja". If someone had diksa in his past life (or lives) that person might be chanting a very high quality of Krsna Nama, but then again they will have the samskars which will cause them to seek out the association of a sat guru. Then after faithful hearing and service they will be compelled to take diksa. If we look at the life of Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur we see an example of this. Of course we view this as a pastime for we have been told by those in his line that he (Bhaktivinode Thakur) is really a nitya siddha or enternally liberated devotee. Do we dare posit that we are nitya siddhas? As conditioned neophyte devotees we need all the help we can get. It is the Protestant Christian conception that everyone can be their own guru and they, will certainly "bow to no man". "Yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau. It is not by education or grammatical knowledge you can learn anything. No. It is by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. And that grace comes down through the grace of guru. That grace also does not come directly. We should not be neglecting this point. (Srila Prabhupada lecture, October 4, 1976, Vrindavan, India)

 

[Guest guest]

Harinama is self-sufficient and initiation into chanting Sri Harinama is the main initiation. You need to hear it from the lips of a suddha-bhakta, and if if you chant Harinama purely under his guidance you will attain an understanding of your swarup siddhi and you will also find your own particular service in Vraja-dham where you render service under the guidance of the Vrajabashi parshad associates of Sri Hari. Everything, you will attain through Sri Nama. Everything.

[Guest guest]

In the Second Wave of the Eastern Division of Sri Sri Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu, in the section dealing with Raganuga-Sadhana-Bhakti, there is a discussion about whether or not men are able to properly appreciate the mood of amorous devotion (madhura rasa). There, Srila Rupa Goswami has quoted the following verse from the Padma Purana:

 

yatha pura maharsayah sarve dandakaranya-vasinah

drstva ramam harim tatra bhoktum-aicchan suvigraham

te sarve stritvam apannah samadbhutas ca gokule

harim samprapya kamena tato mukta bhavarnavat

In olden times when the great sages living in the Dandaka forests saw the beautiful Person of Lord Rama they desired to enjoy His embrace. They were all therefore born in Gokul as females and were freed forever from earthly associations of the ocean of the world by attaining the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna through supra-mundane sex-desires.

 

The sages of Dandaka forest never received initiation into Kamabija mantra. Without receiving any instructions about such things they attained their next birth as gopis in Gokul, simply through the mercy of the Lord.

[theist]

Beggar,

 

We simply have different points of view. I will not change mine nor do I expect you to change yours on the strength of anything I say. I have heard the explanation you gave many times before and I take it as a circular argument that misses the point. "The holy name will lead you to gayatri which will purify you so you can chant the pure name."

 

My position is the holy name will lead you to the chanting of the pure holy name irregardless if you take up any other arms of sadhana or not. I accept the holy name to be self sufficant in all circumstances. Our problem is we have no taste in the beginning to keep the chanting up. But that is not the fault of the name or some deficency in the name which is what I am hearing from your side of the discussion.

 

How is it that someone who is chanting the name offensively cannot be purified by the cleansing power of the name but that same person can be purified by the offensive chanting of gayatri? It just makes no sense to me.

 

Another point I would like to learn about is how is it Jiva Gosvami can say "irregardless of what the scriptures say" and then postulate the opposite as the truth? Where does that leave the sciptures or Jiva Gosvami in the eyes of the devotees? How is that reconcilable without misleading word jugglery?

 

Something is off.

 

And also the example of Haridas Thakur still stands in my view despite the attempted preemptive strike by Puru das. To say we are not on the level of Haridas Thakur so we have no right to follow his example makes hollow his being the Nama Acarya whose example we are urged to follow.

[Beggar]

 

In the Second Wave of the Eastern Division of Sri Sri Bhakti-Rasamrta-Sindhu, in the section dealing with Raganuga-Sadhana-Bhakti, there is a discussion about whether or not men are able to properly appreciate the mood of amorous devotion (madhura rasa). There, Srila Rupa Goswami has quoted the following verse from the Padma Purana:

yatha pura maharsayah sarve dandakaranya-vasinah

drstva ramam harim tatra bhoktum-aicchan suvigraham

te sarve stritvam apannah samadbhutas ca gokule

harim samprapya kamena tato mukta bhavarnavat

In olden times when the great sages living in the Dandaka forests saw the beautiful Person of Lord Rama they desired to enjoy His embrace. They were all therefore born in Gokul as females and were freed forever from earthly associations of the ocean of the world by attaining the Supreme Lord Sri Krishna through supra-mundane sex-desires.

The sages of Dandaka forest never received initiation into Kamabija mantra. Without receiving any instructions about such things they attained their next birth as gopis in Gokul, simply through the mercy of the Lord.

Ask yourself, How did these souls become the sages of Dandaka? What kind of sadhana and bhajana did they do in their past lives? Please note that the Dandaka sages had the direct darshan of the Supreme Lord. Is that our position? Since it obviously is not this makes your post slightly off point.

[Beggar]

 

Beggar,

How is it that someone who is chanting the name offensively cannot be purified by the cleansing power of the name but that same person can be purified by the offensive chanting of gayatri? It just makes no sense to me.

 

Srila Sridhar Maharaja answers this in "Sri Guru and His Grace":

"Jiva Goswami has written that the name of Krsna is the principle thing in the gayatri mantra. Within the mantra, there are also so many other words, but the name is the most important. If the name of Krsna is taken away, and replaced with some other name, the whole thing will be rotten. This is the decision of Jiva Goswami. The holy name of Krsna is all in all. The holy name of Krsna is there in the gayatri mantra, and so many other words are couched there. But if Krsna's name is taken away and replaced with the name of Siva, then the whole thing will go to Siva. The holy name is the all-important factor.

The holy name of Krsna is so important that even the gayatri mantra may not be necessary. It is said na ca sat kriya, na dikse na ca purascarya manadilate mantrayam rasana spri hanato sri krsna namatmaka : "One need not undergo all the purificatory processes, or follow the six ritualistic ceremonies mentioned in the Vedas for pious life; one need not even take initiation into the gayatri mantra. If one simply chants the holy name of Krsna without offense, everything will be successful." The holy name of Krsna is the most important consideration. The gayatri mantra may not even be necessary.

We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajana, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise, it may not be necessary at all. It has been judged in such a way. The name alone can do everything for a person. lt is full and complete. The mantra helps us to do away with the aparadhas, offenses, and the abhasa, or'> or hazy conceptions in our bhajana. The'> The mantra comes to help us only so far.

An example is given of larger and smaller circles. The holy name of Krsna is the larger circle. It extends from the highest to the lowest. The mantra circle is a smaller circle within the larger circle. The mantra cannot reach to the lowest point. The holy name can extend itself down to the lowest position. The mantra gives us entrance into liberation, and then the name carries us further. This is the nature of our connection with the mantra and the name.

The name extends to the lowest position, to the candalas and yavanas. Everyone can receive the name. But everyone is not eligible for the gayatri mantra. Only after one has reached a developed stage can the mantra be conferred upon him. And the mantra's jurisdiction will be finished when liberation is attained. In the Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi. http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridhara_mj/sri_guru/dot_clear.gif7. 73):

krsna-mantra haite habe samsara mocana

krsna-nama haite pabe krsnera carana

"The Krsna gayatri mantra liberates one from repeated birth and death in this world; the holy name of Krsna gives one shelter at the lotus feet of Krsna." The gayatri mantra helps us achieve liberation, and then the mantra retires. After giving us liberation, the mantra is finished. But the name will continue all along, from the lowest to the highest. In chanting the name, there is no mention of any petition--it is an address only. We should not chant with the mentality that, "I want this." We must simply chant the name spontaneously. That will encourage good will in us. So, because the function of the mantra is limited, but the name is all-important, the nama guru will be honored first, and next, the mantra guru, and then the other Vaisnavas."

[Beggar]

The article by Srila Narayana Maharaja (transcribed lecture), "The Absolute Necessity of Second Initiation" in no way contradicts the overall mood and opinion of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. If an acarya emphasizes one point it does not mean he de-emphasizes another. There is always a danger in the land of duality that neophytes will misunderstand something by taking it out of the larger context. Several years ago a misguided neophyte, Western member of the present day Math of Srila Sridhar Maharaja was preaching that Srila Sridhar Maharaja didn't give much regard to diksa gayatri mantras (second initiation). So that is the context of that talk quoted by Puru Prabhu

[Puru_Das]

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura discusses

Initiation into Spriitual life, very nicely in this essay:

http://bvml.org/SBSST/diksa.htm

Here is an excerpt:

"The questions that are frequently asked are as these: ‘Why should it be at all necessary to submit to any particular person or to to any particular ceremony for the purpose of realizing the Absolute Who by His nature in unconditioned? Why should Krishna require our formal declaration of submission to Himself? Would it not be more generous and logical to permit us to live a life of freedom in accordance with the principles of our perverted nature which is also His creation. Admitting that it is our duty to serve Krishna, why should we have to be introduced to Him by a third party? Why is it impossible for one to serve Sri Krishna directly?’ It would no doubt be highly convenient and helpful to be instructed by a good preceptor who is well-versed in the Scriptures in understanding the same. But one should never submit to another to an extent that may furnish a rascal with an opportunity of really doing harm. The bad preceptor is a familiar character. It is inexplicable how those gurus who live in open sin contrive nevertheless to retain the unquestioning allegiance of the cultured portion of their disciples.

Such being the case, can we blame any person who hesitates to submit unconditionally to a preceptor, whether he is good or bad? It is of course necessary to be quite sure of the bonafide of a person before we accept him even tentatively as our spiritual guide. A preceptor should be a person who appears likely to possess those qualities that will enable him it improve our spiritual condition.

Those and similar thoughts are likely to occur to most persons who have received an English education, when they are asked to accept the help of any particular person as his spiritual preceptor. The literature, science and art of the West, body forth the principle of the liberty of the individual and denounce the mentality that leads one to surrender to however superior a person his right of choosing his own course. They inculcate the necessity and high value of having faith in oneself.

But the good preceptor claims our sincere and complete allegiance. The good disciple makes a complete surrender of himself at the feet of the preceptor. But the submission of the disciple is neither irrational or blind. It is complete on condition that the preceptor himself continues to be altogether good. The disciple retains the right of renouncing his allegiance to the preceptor the moment he is satisfied that the preceptor is a fallible creature like himself. Nor does a good preceptor accept any one as his disciple unless the latter is prepared to submit to him freely. A good preceptor is in duty bound to renounce a disciple who is not sincerely willing to follow his instructions fully. If a preceptor accepts as his disciple one who refuses to be wholly guided by him, or if a disciple submits to a preceptor who is not wholly good, such preceptor and such disciple are, both of them, doomed to fall from their spiritual state.

No one is a good preceptor who has not realised the Absolute. One who has realised the Absolute is saved from the necessity of walking on the worldly path. The good preceptor who lives the spiritual life is, therefore, bound to be wholly good. He should be wholly free from any desire for anything of this world whether good or bad. The categories of good and bad do not exist in the Absolute. In the Absolute everything is good. We can have no idea in our present state of this absolute goodness. Submission to the Absolute is not real unless it is also itself absolute. It is on the plane of the Absolute that the disciple is required to submit completely to the good preceptor. On the material plane there can be no such thing as complete submission. The pretence of complete submission to the bad preceptor is responsible for the corruptions that are found in the relationship of the ordinary worldly guru and his equally worldly-minded disciples.

All honest thinkers will realise the logical propriety of the position set forth above. But most persons will be disposed to believe that a good preceptor in the above sense may not be found in this world. This is really so. Both the good preceptor and his disciple belong to the spiritual realm. But spiritual discipleship is nevertheless capable of being realised by persons who belong to this world. Otherwise there would be no religion at all in the world. But because the spiritual life happens to be realizable in this world it does not follow that it is the worldly existence which is capable of being improved into the spiritual. As a matter of fact the one is perfectly incompatible with the other. They are categorically different from one another. The good preceptor although he appears to belong to this world is not really of this world. No one who belongs to this world can deliver us from worldliness. The good preceptor is a denizen of the spiritual world who has been enabled by the will of God to appear in this world in order to enable us to realise the spiritual existence. . ."

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura penned the original document in the year 442 of the Chaitanya Era, corresponding to December, 1928, on the western calendar. The original treatise can still be found in various Gaudiya archives, under volume 26, number 7, of the Shri Sajjana-toshani.

 

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[theist]

Srila Sridhara Maharaja's statement seems very clear and straightforward to me. I will just stick there and avoid anything else as it will only bring confusion to my little mind.

 

In light of your posting that your position seems contradictory to me although I am sure you have some way of apparently connecting them up.

 

In any case even if I thought gayatri was essential I am in no way qualified to chant it. Nor do any of the people I come in daily contact with appear to be so qualified so I will stick to the fact that the name is all you need and not bring in anything else to confuse the simple message of harer nama eva kavalam.

[ng dasa]

 

Quote by Beggar:The article by Srila Narayana Maharaja (transcribed lecture), "The Absolute Necessity of Second Initiation" in no way contradicts the overall mood and opinion of Srila Sridhar Maharaja. If an acarya emphasizes one point it does not mean he de-emphasizes another. There is always a danger in the land of duality that neophytes will misunderstand something by taking it out of the larger context.

The point made here is very essential when we have the oppurtunity, or, have been given the freedom to take siksa from many different acarya's.

What may seem an apparent contradiction or de-emphasing of a particular aspect may not be so. It is most likely due to our neophyte perceptions.

At my neophyte level, the above quote is an important meditation;having been given access to such depth and variety of style in the acarya's teaching approach.