Gayatri Mantra and knowledge

[Beggar]

 

.

In light of your posting that your position seems contradictory to me although I am sure you have some way of apparently connecting them up.

...In any case even if I thought gayatri was essential I am in no way qualified to chant it.

[Puru_Das]

 

. . . but people should not be cajoled into joining a particular sangha just because of the Maharaj having "impeccible credentials".

And of course when we talk about impeccible credentials, maybe we then start studying the credentials, and then we discover that the Maharaj has separated himself from Devananda and that there are some reasons why very few Indian-born Devananda devotees have left Devananda to be with the Maharaj in his new sangha.

Love is never forced.

By all means examine the reasons that Srila Narayana Maharaja seperated from the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. Anyone informed about the matter understands that Srila Narayana Maharaja resigned his position in the Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti as its vice president to simply avoid

politics that came from younger members of that institution.

Insinuating fault in Srila Narayana Maharaja for leaving the Gaduiya Vedanta Samiti is a cheap shot and borders on aparadha. Such an ad homenim attack and unsubstantiated rumor mongoring is useless.

The number of "indian born Devananda devotees" who have chosen to continue to serve their spiritual master in the GVS likely has more to do with their love for Srila Bhakti Prajnan Kesava Maharaja, and nothing to do with anything else.

[Beggar]

I can't understand how that "quote" suddenly appeared in the posting area. There seems to be some techinical problems. Anyway to continue: The philosophy of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu harmonizes all dualities through acintya bheda(a)bheda tattva. In other words all truths or realities have something in common and something different. Krsna is the all harmonizing factor. Also the gayatri mantra initiation in Srila Sarasvati Thakur's line is in the pancartrika viddhi as is hare nama initiation . This means that qualification is not given stress but rather the opportunity to become qualified for the activity such as chanting hare nama or gayatri. This is the Movement of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and we are told that He came to give the highest thing to the lowest persons. How could the lowest persons be qualified for the highest thing? That is another topic but at least we can note that this is an indication of the greatest mercy, Mahaprabhus madly and profusely distributed this mercy and this is the meaning of "audarya".

[theist]

Beggar in your post #46 you have my quote but I don't find the section you posted from Srila Sridhar Maharaja applicable for your position. Here it is again.

"How is it that someone who is chanting the name offensively cannot be purified by the cleansing power of the name but that same person can be purified by the offensive chanting of gayatri? It just makes no sense to me."

Please answer simply and in your own words.

 

 

 

 

[Beggar]

 

Beggar in your post #46 you have my quote but I don't find the section you posted from Srila Sridhar Maharaja applicable for your position. Here it is again.

"How is it that someone who is chanting the name offensively cannot be purified by the cleansing power of the name but that same person can be purified by the offensive chanting of gayatri? It just makes no sense to me."

 

Please answer simply and in your own words.

 

When Srila Sridhar Maharaja says that "the holy name is all and all", that is the absolute conception. The relative consideration is how the absolute manifests in this world which is the perogative of the acarya or "the transcendental via media", Sri Gurudeva. The holy name maybe all and all but we also chant the gayatri mantras in which the Krsna Nama is couched. There is the famous story of the 70's ISKCON devotee who was preaching to a guest to chant the mahamantra. Srila Prabhupada overheard and later told the devotee something like, "that's OK but you must tell them about the process". The "process" in ISKCON and the Gaudiya Maths is more or less the same except for minor details. We may no longer live in a temple or a math but we can remember our devotional life there. We awoke an hour to half and hour before mangal artik, payed our obeisances to the Spiritual Master, took bath, applied tilak chanting the appropriate mantras. Someone woke the dieties, someone prepared the mangal artik milk sweets for the offering. We usually chanted a few rounds of japa on our mala then attended mangal artik and tulasi puja. Then (at least in ISKCON) there's a japa period, those who had second initiation would then chant gayatri, then guru puja and then Bhavavatam class. During the day we were serving the Vaisnavas and gurudeva and going out for preaching. These processes are all described in Bhaktirasmrta Sindhu and Sri Caitanya Caritamrta. So we chanted Hare Krsna in the context of the process of pure devotional as given by gurudeva. Are we next going to argue that hearing Srimad Bhagavatam from a pure vaisnava is not important? Then why is this stated in Caitanya Caritamrta? Is hearing Hari katha (Krsna katha) separate from the holy name of krsna? Anyway ultimately you will have to hear these things from someone who follows them perfectly and is well versed in the sastra. And if you already did this but for some reason your sraddha has become damaged you will have to hear it again from someone that you have faith in. That’s all I can really say.

[AranyaMj]

Going Beyond Vaikuntha Chapter Seven:

“Without the gopala-mantra and the kama-gayatri, will our sadhana be complete with only the nama- sankirtana? No, because by nama-sankirtana alone we will not be able to chant suddha-nama, the pure name of Krishna.”

Confidential Secrets of Bhajana, page 22:

“Everything is there, but don’t think that we can realize all this by chanting Krishna-nama alone. We must chant nama-mantra (gayatri) as well, if we want full understanding and realization of what is in the Hare Krishna mantra.”

 

 

 

namnam akari bahudha nija-sarva-shaktis

tatrarpita niyamitah smarane na kalah

etadrisi tava kripa bhagavan mamapi

durdaivam idrisam ihajani nanuragah

O my Lord, Your holy name alone can render all benediction to living beings, and thus You have hundreds and millions of names, like Krishna and Govinda. In these transcendental names You have invested all Your transcendental energies. There are not even hard and fast rules for chanting these names. O my Lord, out of kindness You enable us to easily approach You by Your holy names, but I am so unfortunate that I have no attraction for them.

 

 

[Beggar]

We find contradictions between acaryas and sastras because our conditioned minds superimpose material duality upon the spiritual substance. And because our minds are immersed in duality unless we get the shelter of the genuine devotees of Krsna and Sri guru we will eventually again become attracted the opposite, which is absolute monism. We must pray that the real understanding of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu's conception of acintya bheda-abheda tattva, inconcievable, simultaneous oneness and difference will come into our hearts. Otherwise we will be doomed to criticize advanced Vaisnavas, then even Krsna and Mahaprabhu.

[Puru_Das]

Here is a nice article by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura regarding initiation:

 

<CENTER>Pancha Samskara: The Process of Initiation

 

</CENTER><CENTER>by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

http://bvml.org/SBTP/pstpoi.html</CENTER>

a short excerpt:

". . . On the other hand, samskara is not necessary for liberated persons because their nature is not distorted. Distortion of the soul's original spiritual nature is the cause of his bondage in this world. For this reason, without samskara the life of the conditioned soul is impure. Even if a person has attained prema on account of previous samskara, still in his present life he again receives samskara in order to set a proper example for the good of all. . ."

[theist]

 

When Srila Sridhar Maharaja says that "the holy name is all and all", that is the absolute conception. The relative consideration is how the absolute manifests in this world which is the perogative of the acarya or "the transcendental via media", Sri Gurudeva. The holy name maybe all and all but we also chant the gayatri mantras in which the Krsna Nama is couched. There is the famous story of the 70's ISKCON devotee who was preaching to a guest to chant the mahamantra. Srila Prabhupada overheard and later told the devotee something like, "that's OK but you must tell them about the process". The "process" in ISKCON and the Gaudiya Maths is more or less the same except for minor details. We may no longer live in a temple or a math but we can remember our devotional life there. We awoke an hour to half and hour before mangal artik, payed our obeisances to the Spiritual Master, took bath, applied tilak chanting the appropriate mantras. Someone woke the dieties, someone prepared the mangal artik milk sweets for the offering. We usually chanted a few rounds of japa on our mala then attended mangal artik and tulasi puja. Then (at least in ISKCON) there's a japa period, those who had second initiation would then chant gayatri, then guru puja and then Bhavavatam class. During the day we were serving the Vaisnavas and gurudeva and going out for preaching. These processes are all described in Bhaktirasmrta Sindhu and Sri Caitanya Caritamrta. So we chanted Hare Krsna in the context of the process of pure devotional as given by gurudeva. Are we next going to argue that hearing Srimad Bhagavatam from a pure vaisnava is not important? Then why is this stated in Caitanya Caritamrta? Is hearing Hari katha (Krsna katha) separate from the holy name of krsna? Anyway ultimately you will have to hear these things from someone who follows them perfectly and is well versed in the sastra. And if you already did this but for some reason your sraddha has become damaged you will have to hear it again from someone that you have faith in. That’s all I can really say.

Again, I have already admitted that other activities are necessary because of not having developed attraction for constant chanting. This does not answer my question:

"How is it that someone who is chanting the name offensively cannot be purified by the cleansing power of the name but that same person can be purified by the offensive chanting of gayatri? It just makes no sense to me."

 

 

And if you already did this but for some reason your sraddha has become damaged you will have to hear it again from someone that you have faith in. That’s all I can really say.

I believe there is a clearly implied suggestion here that even someone who had been engaged as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada has to now find someone else, presently embodied to hear the same instructions from for the renewal of their faith. And we know who you mean. Now the other view is that all a disciple of Srila Prabhupadsa really must do is remember the words of his spiritual master and find a renewed dedication to them.

I know you do not mean to be hurtful or offensive when you say this but try to hear it from the position of the one who thinks as I just described. To him it will be hurtful and offensive to even consider such a thing as placing another on the vyasasana of his heart which he built for Srila Prabhupada.

This is a separate thing. I would really like to hear your direct answer to my simple question as reposted above.

[theist]

Thank you for offering the quotes but in all honesty there is nothing in them that inspire faith in me towards them. He is your guru so naturally you have faith in his words. That is not my position.

 

I am waiting for something to said to convince me that chanting gayatri will clear anarthas whereas the Hare Krsna mantra cannot.

 

I believe your quote from the Siksastak actually as a basis for my position that the Holy Name alone can indeed purify us completly and it is only our lack of attraction for them which makes of engagements necessary to fill in the gaps in our chanting with other purifying activities.

 

Hare Krsna

[theist]

Uncle Puru

 

It is my belief that the only purificatory process that is needed to make one eligible to chant the name purely is the sincere practice of chanting the holy name through the offensive and clearing stages.

 

I remain fixed in this conviction.

[Guest guest]

Theist,

I don't see how it is possible to advance beyond the stage of nama aparadha to nama abasa and one day suddha-nama, without following the instructions of the diksa and siksa gurus. If they reccommend the purasacarya process of receiving the diksa mantras, and chanting them three times every day in conjunction with nama-japa then why can't you accept their guidance. How is it possible to chant Hare Krsna successfully without hearing the maha mantra from the lips of a pure devotee, hearing His conception of the holy name and accepting his guidance in all regards, including diksa and the sampradaya mantras.

[Puru_Das]

Theist

His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada offers a nice explanation regarding the importance of diksa in Cc. Madhya lila 15.108. Why not read it (and the accompanying slokas and purports to 106 and 107) and then tell me what part of the purports you don't accept? You can find them at the url address below, if you don't have a copy of the book.

". . . One should therefore be initiated properly according to revealed scriptures under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master." . .

http://bvml.org/books/CC/madhya/15.html

I

[Puru_Das]

There is also a very nice essay about diksa from a harikatha conference from Calcutta by Srila Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha Maharaja

". . . Conditioned souls who are entangled by illusory energy are unable to remove their non-eternal desires imbibed in their hearts after passing through numerous births. It is not possible for them to remove the previous bad impressions by their own efforts. But if they take shelter to the lotus feet of a bona fide Guru without deceitfulness, by Guru's grace their spiritual life will be successful. . . . Divine knowledge descends to a completely surrendered soul through revelation. One who has got realization of Supreme Lord can impart that self-effulgent knowledge to others also, provided the aspirant has complete submission to Lord and His Absolute Counterpart Guru. Conditioned souls of the world are not eligible to impart or to get that Transcendental Divine Knowledge"

http://www.bvml.org/SBBTM/initiation.html

[shiva]

 

Another point I would like to learn about is how is it Jiva Gosvami can say "irregardless of what the scriptures say" and then postulate the opposite as the truth? Where does that leave the sciptures or Jiva Gosvami in the eyes of the devotees? How is that reconcilable without misleading word jugglery?

Something is off.

 

Could you post the words of Jiva Goswami you have a problem with? I'll try and give my perspective.

[Puru_Das]

Srila Jiva Gosvami did not say "irregardless of what the scriptures say." Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura is explaining what Srila Jiva Gosvami wrote in Bhakti-sandharbha in his commentary of Srila Rupa Gosvami's second anga of bhakti in the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu

Here is the quote:

"Srila Jiva Gosvami, in discussing this topic in the Bhakti-sandarbha (283), has said that in spite of the statements in the sastras as to the autonomous potency of the holy name, the previous mahajanas such as Sri Narada and so on first accepted diksa from their gurus and then performed their sadhana and bhajana in worship of their istadeva (the beloved deity of their heart). Similarly, those who desire to follow in the footsteps of those mahapurusas must also accept diksa in bhagavad-mantra from Sri Gurudeva, because without accepting diksa, one’s relationship with Bhagavan as dasya, sakhya, and so on cannot be awakened. That relationship is established only by the lotus feet of Sri Guru. The custom of diksa was honored by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers, the Gosvami. It is prevalent even today in their followers.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has clearly said that those persons who have abandoned the pursuits of karma-yoga, jnan yoga, japa, tapa, and othe processes of sadhana, who have accepted Bhagavan as their istadeva and who are engaged in sravana,kirtanam and smarna of bhagvan-nama, but who have not accepted diksa from a Vaisnava guru according to the Vaisnava regulations, cannot attain the Supreme Lord. They will merely be prevented from entering hell, or in their next birth, by the influence of the bhajana performed from the previous life, they will obtain sadhu-sanga. By then taking shelter at the lotus feet of a guru, receiving diksa from him and making advancement through the different stages of bhakti, they can attain the Supreme Lord.”

[shiva]

From Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura's Raga Vartma Candrika (1.9)

 

 

 

udbhUte tAdRze lobhe zAstra darziteSu tat tad bhAva prApty upAyeSu, “AcAryya caitya vapuSA svagatiM vyanakti” ity uddhavokteH, keSucid guru-mukhAt keSucid abhijJa mahodayAnurAgi bhakta mukhAt abhijJAteSu keSucid bhakti mRSta citta-vRttiSu svata eva sphuriteSu, sollAsam evAtizayena pravRttiH syAt. yathA kAmArthinAM kAmopAyeSu. || 1.9 ||

 

“When the aforementioned sacred greed has appeared in the heart, one becomes enlightened in different ways. Uddhava Mahasaya says in Srimad Bhagavata 11.29.6: ‘Krishna reveals Himself through the acarya (spiritual master) or through the agency of the Supersoul.’ Thus some devotee attains knowledge about the moods of Krishna and His Vraja associates from the mouth of a guru, some from the mouth of a learned raganuga devotee, and some, whose hearts have been purified by the practise of devotional service, will have this knowledge directly revealed to them from within their hearts. Then, just as a sense enjoyer automatically becomes engaged in having his senses gratified, without depending on anyone’s encouragement, similarly the raganugiya aspirant will automatically be seen as very happy in attaining his desired feelings.”

[theist]

shiva, the post I am referring to was #29 addressed to you. Here is the what I am referring to.

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami doesn't agree with you.The specific topic of chanting the maha mantra and the simultaneous necessity for receiving diksa-mantras from a bona fide sad-guru is explained succinctly in Srila Visvanatha Cakravati Thakura’s book “Sri Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu as follows:

“It is seen in the shastras in connection with the glories of bhagavan-nama that there is so much potency in the Lord’s name that even without undergoing diksa, purificatory ceremonies (sat-kriya), or prepatory rites (purasacarya), harinama is competent to produce results as soon as it comes in contact with the tongue. This is expressed in the following statement of Sri Laksmidhara cited from Padyavali (29):

akrstih krta-cetasam sumahatam uccatanam cahasam

acandalam amuka-loka sulabho vasyas ca moksa sriyah

no diksam na ca daksinam na ca purascaryam mangiksate

mantro ‘yam rasanaspregeva phalati sri krsna-namatmakah

This mahamantra, composed of the names of Sri Krsna, is so astonishingly powerful and accessible that it yields fruit as soon as it touches the tongue. Because it attracts even liberated souls who are purified at heart and whose desires are fully satiated, this mantra is supreme in its power of subjugation. It eradicates great sins which could not e destroyed by Yajna, yoga, tapa, dana and other means. Because it can be chanted anywhere at any time, it is so easily available that even candalas (dog-eaters) or anyone who is not mute can chant it. By its causeless mercy, it submits itself to a person who merely desires to chant. The rare wealth of moksa runs behind to serve it. Unlike other mantras, the chanting of this mahamantra is not dependent on receiving diksa from a guru, moral conduct, or prepatory rites.

Srila Jiva Gosvami, in discussing this topic in the Bhakti-sandarbha (238), has said that in spite of the statements in the sastras as to the autonomous potency of the holy name, the previous mahajanas such as Sri Narada and so on first accepted diksa from their gurus and then performed their sadhana and bhajana in worship of their istadeva (the beloved deity of their heart). Similarly, those who desire to follow in the footsteps of those mahapurusas must also accept diksa in bhagavad-mantra from Sri Gurudeva, because without accepting diksa, one’s relationship with Bhagavan as dasya, sakhya, and so on cannot be awakened. That relationship is established only by the lotus feet of Sri Guru. The custom of diksa was honored by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers, the Gosvami. It is prevalent even today in their followers.

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura has clearly said that those persons who have abandoned the pursuits of karma-yoga, jnan yoga, japa, tapa, and othe processes of sadhana, who have accepted Bhagavan as their istadeva and who are engaged in sravana,kirtanam and smarna of bhagvan-nama, but who have not accepted diksa from a Vaisnava guru according to the Vaisnava regulations, cannot attain the Supreme Lord. They will merely be prevented from entering hell, or in their next birth, by the influence of the bhajana performed from the previous life, they will obtain sadhu-sanga. By then taking shelter at the lotus feet of a guru, receiving diksa from him and making advancement through the different stages of bhakti, they can attain the Supreme Lord.”

Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu

pp. 52-53

excerpted from

(2) Sri Krsna-diksa-siksadi

(Receiving initiation and spiritual instructions)

 

I cannot understand Jiva Gosvami's statement that because Narada Muni appparently chanted gayatri that now inspite of the statements of the sastra everyone must chant gayatri.

[theist]

 

Theist,

I don't see how it is possible to advance beyond the stage of nama aparadha to nama abasa and one day suddha-nama, without following the instructions of the diksa and siksa gurus.

First instruction is to chant the Holy Name. I acept that as complete in and of itself. Everything is there. Reception of the Name from the Vaisnava, the instruction of the Vaisnava to chant the Holy Name and if one takes this simple instruction to heart by doing it that shows the necessary receptivity on the part of the student.

Some are saying divya-jnan comes from Gayatri. Ok I accept that because the Name is present in the gayatri. But the point is the potency of the gayatri is due to the prence of the Holy Name and not that the potency is due to the rest of the gayatri apart from the Name. This is what I hear Srila Sridhar Maharaja saying. The Holy Name does not lose potency when chanted apart from the gayatri as in the Maha mantra. The Holy name is the active ingredient.

Now if the Holy Name can give Divya-jnan from within the gayatri why could it not give divya-jnan as the Maha-mantra?

[shiva]

Srila Narayana Maharaja has written a translation and commentary to the Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu in such a way that it is difficult to know where translation ends and commentary begins and it is difficult to know how precise the translation is because there is no word for word.

 

This is what Jiva Goswami wrote and what they are commenting on:

 

 

Although in the opinion of Srimad-Bhagavatam the path of worshipping the Deity, as it is described in the Pancaratras and other scriptures, is not compulsory, and without engaging in Deity worship one may attain the final goal of life by engaging in even only one of the nine processes of devotional service, processes that begin with surrender, nevertheless, in the opinion of they who follow the path of Narada Muni and other great sages, by accepting initiation from a bona fide spiritual master one attains a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a relationship established through the feet of one's spiritual master, and when one is thus initiated, the process of Deity worship is compulsory...

 

...To chant the holy name of the Lord one need not depend upon other paraphernalia, for one can immediately get all the desired results of connecting or linking with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. It may therefore be questioned why there is a necessity for further spiritual activities in devotional service for one who engages in the chanting of the holy name of the Lord.

 

The answer is that although it is correct that one who fully engages in chanting the holy name need not depend upon the process of initiation, generally a devotee is addicted to many abominable material habits due to material contamination from his previous life. In order to get quick relief from all these contaminations, it is required that one engage in the worship of the Lord in the temple. The worship of the Deity in the temple is essential to reduce one's restlessness due to the contaminations of conditional life. Thus Narada in his pancaratriki vidhi, and other great sages have sometimes stressed that since every conditioned soul has a bodily concept of life aimed at sense enjoyment the rules and regulations for worshipping the Deity in the temple are essential.

This section is on arcana, deity worship. In it Jiva Goswami is stressing the importance of diksa because you are not allowed to do arcana in the temple unless you are initiated. He says that while diksa is not necessary it is good for you. If you have the opportunity to take diksa then you should, but without it you can still attain self realization.

[shiva]

 

Some are saying divya-jnan comes from Gayatri. Ok I accept that because the Name is present in the gayatri. But the point is the potency of the gayatri is due to the prence of the Holy Name and not that the potency is due to the rest of the gayatri apart from the Name. This is what I hear Srila Sridhar Maharaja saying. The Holy Name does not lose potency when chanted apart from the gayatri as in the Maha mantra. The Holy name is the active ingredient.

Now if the Holy Name can give Divya-jnan from within the gayatri why could it not give divya-jnan as the Maha-mantra?

What is divya-jnana in this context? Jiva Goswami explains:

 

 

The words "divyam jnanam" (transcendental knowledge) here refers to the descriptions of the Lord's transcendental form in sacred mantras. Chanting those mantras establishes a relationship with the Supreme Lord. This is explained in the Padma Purana, Uttara-khanda's description of the eight-syllable mantra. Thus for wealthy householders the path of Deity worship is most important.

It's not that the gayatri mantra is some magic incantation whereupon chanting you are given access to reams of transcendental knowledge mystically imbued into your mind, and that if you aren't initiated that knowledge is not available to you. That's not how it works, if only it were so easy. The divya jnanam Jiva Goswami is referring to are the descriptions of the Lord's form in that mantra.

[AranyaMj]

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami, in discussing this topic in the Bhakti-sandarbha (238), has said that in spite of the statements in the sastras as to the autonomous potency of the holy name, the previous mahajanas such as Sri Narada and so on first accepted diksa from their gurus and then performed their sadhana and bhajana in worship of their istadeva (the beloved deity of their heart). Similarly, those who desire to follow in the footsteps of those mahapurusas must also accept diksa in bhagavad-mantra from Sri Gurudeva, because without accepting diksa, one’s relationship with Bhagavan as dasya, sakhya, and so on cannot be awakened. That relationship is established only by the lotus feet of Sri Guru. The custom of diksa was honored by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers, the Gosvami. It is prevalent even today in their followers.

But these things quoted above are not mentioned at all in Bhakti-sandarbha 238

 

Here is the whole of Bhakti-sandarbha 238

 

 

Sri Bhakti-sandarbha

 

Anuccheda 238

 

1 It is good to serve other Vaisnavas when this service is ordered by one's spiritual master and when it does not create an impediment to the service of one's spiritual master. If one acts otherwise, he is at fault. Sri Narada explains this in the following words:

2 "He attains misfortune who worships someone else in the presence of his spiritual master. His worship becomes fruitless."

3 The qualities of a bona fide spiritual master are described in Srimad Bhagavatam (11.3.21). If one's spiritual master does not have these qualities, and is envious of advanced devotees, and thus refuses to allow his disciples to honour and worship other devotees, the disciple should leaves such a pretender spiritual master is not at fault. He has not disobeyed the teachings of the scriptures. The truth is that such a pretender spiritual master and his disciple both fall into calamity. This is described in the following words of Sri Narada-pancaratra:

4 "A spiritual master who speaks wrongly, without logic, and a disciple who hears wrongly, without logic, both go to a terrible hell for a long time that seems not to end."

5 Such a spiritual master should be worshipped from afar. If the spiritual master hates Vaisnavas, he should be rejected. This is described in the Smrti-sastra:

"A spiritual master who is materialistic, unaware of what should and should not be done, and deviated from the true spiritual path, should be rejected."

6 One who does not have the qualities of a Vaisnava is not a Vaisnava. This is explained in the verse beginning with the words "avaisnavopadistena" (quoted in anuccheda 207). If the spiritual master does not have the qualities thus described, it is best that one should serve a genuine exalted (maha-bhagavata) devotee instead of him. This exalted devotee, who should be equipoised and kind-hearted to his disciples, should be accepted as if he were one's spiritual master.

7 In the Sri Hari-bhakti-sudhodaya it is said:

"Association is very important. It acts just like a crystal stone, which will reflect anything which is put before it.* Therefore, for his own well-being an intelligent person will associate with someone who will bring good fortune."

This means that without the mercy of a great Vaisnava one cannot attain the condition where his heart is attracted to the Supreme Lord.

8 Therefore one should appropriately serve all persons who show the signs of being devotees of the Lord. Service to the great devotees is of two kinds: 1. association with devotees, and 2. worship and service of devotees. Association with devotees is described by Lord Krsna in these words (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.12.1-2):

9-10 "My dear Uddhava, by associating with my pure devotee one can destroy one's attachment for all objects of material sense gratification. Such purifying association brings Me under the control of My devotee. One may perform the astanga-yoga system, engage in philosophical analysis of the elements of material nature, practice non violence and other ordinary principles of piety, chant the Vedas, perform penances, take to the renounced order of life, execute sacrificial performances and dig wells, plant trees, and perform other public welfare activities, give in charity, carry out severe vows, worship the demigods, chant confidential mantras, visit holy places or accept major and minor disciplinary injunctions, but even by performing such activities one does not bring Me under his control."***

11 In the previous chapter, the Lord also explained (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.11.47):

"One who has executed sacrificial performances and pious works for My satisfaction, and who thus worships Me with fixed attention, obtains unflinching devotional service unto Me. By the excellent quality of his service such a worshipper obtains realised knowledge of Me."***

12 Here the word "sadhu-sevaya" means "by a person who has faith in devotional service and who thus knows that all other spiritual paths are improper". "Ista" means "agnihotra, darsa, paurnamasa, caturmasya, yaga, pasuyaga, vaisvadeva and bali-hrana, which are all described in the Seventh Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam". "Purta" means "suralaya, arama, kupa, vapi, tadaga, and prapanna-sastra".

13 The Lord describes "ista" in these words (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.11.43):

"One may worship Me within fire by offering oblations of ghee."

The Lord describes "purta" in these words (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.11.38):

"One should work for the construction of flower gardens, fruit gardens and special areas to celebrate My pastimes."

14 Thus the Lord explains, "One who has executed sacrificial performances and pious works for My satisfaction, and who thus worships Me with fixed attention, obtains unflinching devotional service unto Me." This means that in the association of devotees one attains faith in confidential devotional service. The Supreme Lord is present in the sacrificial fire and thus agni-hotra-yajnas are offered to please Him. Digging wells, planting gardens, and other like activities are done here for the purpose of serving the Lord. Thus in the association of devotees one should serve the Supreme Lord. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is supremely independent and supremely powerful. It is He who gives the results of all actions. To explain the confidential truth of all this, the Lord Himself declares (Srimad Bhagavatam 11.11.49):

15 "My dear Uddhava, O beloved of the Yadu dynasty, because you are My servant, well-wisher and friend, I shall now speak to you the most confidential knowledge. Please hear as I explain these great mysteries to you."***

16 Not yet having described that portion of His glories, the Lord proceeds to reveal that confidential knowledge in the passage beginning with Srimad Bhagavatam 11.12.1.

17 In Srimad Bhagavatam 11.12.1 the word "tyagah" means "renunciation", "daksina" means "charity", "yajnah" means "worship of the demigods", and "chandamsi" means "confidential mantras". Here the Lord explains, "By associating with My devotees, one brings Me under his control. By performing yoga or sankhya one does not bring Me under his control in the same way." That is the meaning here. The devotees are able to bring the Supreme Personality of Godhead under their control. Therefore the devotees are not ordinary persons. That is the meaning here.

18 Srila Sridhara Svami comments:

"Here the word 'vratani' means 'ekadasi' and 'other vows'."

However, of course, this does not mean that other Vaisnava vows are to be neglected. Still, this one vow, the ekadasi vow, bring a very great result, and thus the regular observance of it should not be avoided.

They who are qualified to perform pious deeds are described in the following words (Srimad Bhagavatam 7.14.17):

19 "The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Sri Krsna, is the enjoyer of sacrificial offerings. Yet although His Lordship eats the oblations offered in the fire, my dear King, He is still more satisfied when nice food made of grains and ghee is offered to Him through the mouths of qualified brahmanas."*

20 The verse preceding this gives the following explanation (Srimad Bhagavatam 7.14.16):

"When one is enriched with wealth and knowledge which are under his full control and by means of which he can perform yajna or please the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one must perform sacrifices, offering oblations to the fire according to the directions of the sastras. In this way one should worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead."*

The devotees described here are not able to abandon the regulated performance of yajnas.

21 They who are qualified to engage in devotional service are described in these words of Srimad Bhagavatam (11.19.21):

"Worship of My devotees is most important."

After one is initiated one must regularly worship the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One is not able to renounce that worship.

22 In the Skanda Purana it is said:

"In the Kali-yuga one who offers cooked rice to Lord Visnu and then eats the remnants of that offering, obtains the pious results of a six month fast."

23 These words do not detract from the importance of observing ekadasi. One should regularly observe ekadasi and the other Vaisnava vows, for that brings a great result. Now we will reveal something about worshipping the Supreme Lord by observing ekadasi and the other Vaisnava vows.

24 Srila Sridhara Svami comments on Srimad-Bhagavatam 11.11.32:

"Here the word 'santyajya' means 'renouncing obstructions to true devotional service, obstructions such as fasting on viddha-ekadasi, failure to fast on krsna-ekadasi, and failure to offer foods to the Lord on ekadasi."

25 Commenting on the word "bhagavad-dharman" in a conversation of Sri Bhisma and Sri Yudhisthira in the First Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam (1.9.27), Srila Sridhara Svami explains:

"Dvadasi and other vows are pleasing to Lord Hari".

In the Third Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam (3.1.19), Srila Sridhara Svami comments on the words "vratani cere hari-tosanani":

"This refers to ekadasi and other vows."

The importance of ekadasi is also seen in the description of the Supreme Lord's mercy to King Ambarisa, the crest jewel of the devotees.

 

I also have the original Sanskrit and Bengli translation for Bhakti Sandarbha here on my desk beside me, published by Gaudiya Mission in 2005. The suppposed translation of Bhakti-sandarbha 238 that is being presented by some people involved in this debate is most definitely not in that book.

[shiva]

He made a mistake, it should be anuccheda 283

 

http://www.harekrsna.com/philosophy/gss/sastra/literature/gosvamis/jiva/bhakti/bhakti10.doc

[AranyaMj]

 

17 Although in the opinion of Srimad-Bhagavatam the path of worshipping the Deity, as it is described in the Pancaratras and other scriptures, is not compulsory, and without engaging in Deity worship one may attain the final goal of life by engaging in even only one of the nine processes of devotional service, processes that begin with surrender, nevertheless, in the opinion of they who follow the path of Narada Muni and other great sages, by accepting initiation from a bona fide spiritual master one attains a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead, a relationship established through the feet of one's spiritual master, and when one is thus initiated, the process of Deity worship is compulsory.

 

Kusakratha's translation is markedly different from this statement

 

 

Srila Jiva Gosvami, in discussing this topic in the Bhakti-sandarbha (238), has said that in spite of the statements in the sastras as to the autonomous potency of the holy name, the previous mahajanas such as Sri Narada and so on first accepted diksa from their gurus and then performed their sadhana and bhajana in worship of their istadeva (the beloved deity of their heart). Similarly, those who desire to follow in the footsteps of those mahapurusas must also accept diksa in bhagavad-mantra from Sri Gurudeva, because without accepting diksa, one’s relationship with Bhagavan as dasya, sakhya, and so on cannot be awakened. That relationship is established only by the lotus feet of Sri Guru. The custom of diksa was honored by Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and His followers, the Gosvami. It is prevalent even today in their followers.

There is also this verse

 

283.20 The words "divyam jnanam" (transcendental knowledge) here refers to the descriptions of the Lord's transcendental form in sacred mantras. Chanting those mantras establishes a relationship with the Supreme Lord.

The Hare Krsna mantra is the Mahamantra. I am beginning to wonder if it is Nama-aparadha to say the things said in the quote below

 

Going Beyond Vaikuntha Chapter Seven:

“Without the gopala-mantra and the kama-gayatri, will our sadhana be complete with only the nama- sankirtana? No, because by nama-sankirtana alone we will not be able to chant suddha-nama, the pure name of Krishna.”

Confidential Secrets of Bhajana, page 22:

“Everything is there, but don’t think that we can realize all this by chanting Krishna-nama alone. We must chant nama-mantra (gayatri) as well, if we want full understanding and realization of what is in the Hare Krishna mantra.”

[theist]

Thanks shiva post # 70. That is the understanding I had and is not at all contradictory. Amazing the difference a few words here and there can make.

 

Now I will slip back into listener mode.