Gayatri Mantra and knowledge

[theist]

 

The Hare Krsna mantra is the Mahamantra. I am beginning to wonder if it is Nama-aparadha to say the things said in the quote below

I wonder also.

 

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[Beggar]

 

I believe there is a clearly implied suggestion here that even someone who had been engaged as a disciple of Srila Prabhupada has to now find someone else, presently embodied to hear the same instructions from for the renewal of their faith. And we know who you mean. Now the other view is that all a disciple of Srila Prabhupadsa really must do is remember the words of his spiritual master and find a renewed dedication to them.

I know you do not mean to be hurtful or offensive when you say this but try to hear it from the position of the one who thinks as I just described. To him it will be hurtful and offensive to even consider such a thing as placing another on the vyasasana of his heart which he built for Srila Prabhupada.

./quote]

Theist, First let me say that I cannot really directly answer your question, I'm just not qualified. You can always keep Srila Prabhupada in a special place in your heart; this is guru nistha and it is admired by all sane aspiring devotees. But if we want to go to the trascendental land of Radha and Krsna where all are pure devotees we will have open our conception and heart to a plurality of pure devotees. There, all are gurus. Srila Sridhar Maharaja explains how even the land itself in Vraja is experiencing conjugal rasa with Krsna. So how could we ever even dream of walking on it? We will have to become so pure that every step will only be for service of Radha and Krsna. Also I want to say that personally I don't really believe in so much canvassing for diksa and siksa gurus. I think that we need to just preach as purely as possible and understand that devotees will go into that camp which inspires them. Of course there will different levels of association but where we go will ultimately based on our sukrti, our inner aspiration, and the will of the Lord.

[Puru_Das]

 

What is divya-jnana in this context? Jiva Goswami explains:

It's not that the gayatri mantra is some magic incantation whereupon chanting you are given access to reams of transcendental knowledge mystically imbued into your mind, and that if you aren't initiated that knowledge is not available to you. That's not how it works, if only it were so easy. The divya jnanam Jiva Goswami is referring to are the descriptions of the Lord's form in that mantra.

Your opinion is certainly diammetrically opposed to that of Srila Jiva Gosvami, and Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura. By your way of thinking there is no need for any acarya to plant the bhakti lata bhija in anyone's heart. That devotional creeper can't grow if it is not planted.

 

Who should we listen to? Srila Jiva Gosvami is an eternal parishad of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, and "According to the Gaura-ganoddesa-dipika (195), Srila Jiva Goswami was Vilasa Manjari in his previous incarnation in Vraja"

 

You heard the sampradaya mantras from an unqualified personality around 1978. If you only received counterfeit money how can you possibly appreciate how bona fide currency works? How can any conditioned soul explain how these mantras work? And even with the explantion of their importance from bona fide acarays, until we understand the potency of these mantras by genuine realization and adhikara, their full meaning will remain hidden to us all.

 

That realization comes with maturity. IF we are allowed to enter the school of diksa, it may still be many lifetimes of sincere practice and patient determination before we graduate. KC means executing devotional principles under the anugatya of the good preceptor.

 

"THE ceremony of diksha or initiation is that by which the spiritual Preceptor admits one to the status of a neophyte on the path of spiritual endeavour. The ceremony tends to confer spiritual enlightenment by abrogating sinfulness. Its actual effect depends on the degree of willing co-operation on the part of the disciple and is, therefore, not the same in all cases. It does not preclude the possibility of reversion on the novice to the non-spiritual state, if he slackens in his effort or misbehaves. Initiation puts a person on the true track and also imparts an initial impulse to go ahead. It cannot, however, keep one going for good unless one chooses to put forth his own voluntary effort. The nature of the initial impulse also varies in accordance with the condition of the recipient. But although the mercy of the good preceptor enables us to have a glimpse of the Absolute and of the path of His attainment, the seed that is thus sown requires very careful tending under the direction of the preceptor, if it is to germinate and grow into the fruit-and-shade-giving tree. Unless our soul of his own accord chooses to serve Krishna after obtaining a working idea of his real nature, he cannot long retain the Spiritual Vision. The soul is never compelled by Krishna to serve Him.

 

But initiation is never altogether futile. It changes the outlook of the disciple on life. If he sins after initiation, he may fall into greater depths of degradation than the uninitiated. But although even after initiation temporary set-backs may occur, they do not ordinarily prevent the final deliverance. The faintest glimmering of the real knowledge of the Absolute has sufficient power to change radically and for good the whole of our mental and physical constitution and this glimmering is incapable of being totally extinguished except in extraordinarily unfortunate cases."

 

Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura

http://bvml.org/SBSST/diksa.htm

 

 

 

 

 

[Puru_Das]

 

I wonder also.

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Theist, do you also believe that Srila Rupa Gosvami committed an offense when he listed the first two angas of bhakti in Bhakti-rasamrta sindhu?

guru-padashrayas tasmat

krishna-dikshadi-shikshanam

vishrambhena guroh seva

sadhu vartanuvartamanam

Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu, 1.2.74)

"[1] Accepting the shelter of the lotus feet of a bona fide spiritual master,

[2] becoming initiated by the spiritual master and learning how to discharge devotional service from him,

[3] obeying the orders of the spiritual master with faith and devotion, and

[4] following in the footsteps of great acaryas [teachers] under the direction of the spiritual master".**

[theist]

 

Theist, First let me say that I cannot really directly answer your question, I'm just not qualified. You can always keep Srila Prabhupada in a special place in your heart; this is guru nistha and it is admired by all sane aspiring devotees. But if we want to go to the trascendental land of Radha and Krsna where all are pure devotees we will have open our conception and heart to a plurality of pure devotees. There, all are gurus. Srila Sridhar Maharaja explains how even the land itself in Vraja is experiencing conjugal rasa with Krsna. So how could we ever even dream of walking on it? We will have to become so pure that every step will only be for service of Radha and Krsna. Also I want to say that personally I don't really believe in so much canvassing for diksa and siksa gurus. I think that we need to just preach as purely as possible and understand that devotees will go into that camp which inspires them. Of course there will different levels of association but where we go will ultimately based on our sukrti, our inner aspiration, and the will of the Lord.

Beggar, I hear you. I am not so much even referring to myself as I am not in anyway a disciple of Srila Prabhupada in reality. I have learned from him and he has had a positive impact on my life but discipleship is truly rarified air.

I am with you also on guru as being plural. Since Caitya guru is everywhere and within everyone and everything guru can appear to us from an umlimted number of angles what to speak of from any one of His pure devotees. Somehow I believe we must allow Supersoul to direct our faith to who He wishes us to hear from. When we follow that Divinely directed faith we surely cannot go wrong. And we must understand that He may direct someone else to someone else. The main thing is that we be directed from within by Him.

[theist]

 

Theist, do you also believe that Srila Rupa Gosvami committed an offense when he listed the first two angas of bhakti in Bhakti-rasamrta sindhu?

I merely said "I wonder also." Which I do and will leave it there. I have my own offenses to get beyond anyway.

[Puru_Das]

Here is another stellar article about guru tattva from one of the still living disciples of Srila Bhaktisiddha Sarasvati Thakura:

Sri Guru Tattva

by Srila Bhakti Kumud Santa Maharaja

 

[urlk]http://bvml.org/SBKSM/gurutattva.htm

tasmad gurum prapadyeta

jijnasuh sreya uttamam

sabde pare ca nisnatam

brahamany upasamasrayam

Srimad Bhagavatam, 11.3.21

 

"Therefore any person who seriously desires real happiness must seek a bona fide spiritual master and take shelter of him by initiation. The qualification of the bona fide guru is that he has realized the conclusions of the scriptures by deliberation and is able to convince others of these conclusions. Such great personality, who has taken shelter of the Supreme Godhead, leaving aside all material considerations, should be understood to be bona fide spiritual master".

 

[Puru_Das]

<center> Why the Feet of Sri Guru

 

</center> <center> by Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja

 

</center>

 

."The sisya or sadhaka should always cry for guru-krpa, the causeless mercy of the guru. Unless you cry for it, you cannot get it. Nobody can get that mercy without crying. For example, when the child cries, the mother runs, thinking, "Oh, my child is crying." The child cannot be pacified by anything without the mother's presence. Because she is engaged in performing household duties the mother may give the child a toy or a doll to play with, but the child will throw down that toy or doll and cry and cry. So unless you cry, how can you get that mercy? This crying is required— karuna na hoile, kandiya kandiya, prana na rakhibo ara. Therefore we sing this song. We must cry and cry for the mercy of guru. Unless you cry how can you get it? Those who have cried have received the mercy.

 

http://bvml.org/SGGM/wtfosg.html

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

"How is it that someone who is chanting the name offensively cannot be purified by the cleansing power of the name but that same person can be purified by the offensive chanting of gayatri? It just makes no sense to me."

I think the obvious answer is it can't. If the name of Bhagavan can't purify one, then nothing in existence can. All spiritual activities purify us in varying degrees, and of all of them the name is the most powerful. Other things can help in purifying little by little , just like the squirels helped Lord Rama build the bridge. But the name of the Lord is like Hanuman who threw the gigantic mountains into the ocean.

[Guest guest]

 

:

"How is it that someone who is chanting the name offensively cannot be purified by the cleansing power of the name but that same person can be purified by the offensive chanting of gayatri? It just makes no sense to me."

It makes no sense because it is not what anyone except you has said and falsely concluded. No one said that the maha manatra is not purifying. All anyone pointed out was that conditioned souls cannot chant suddha nama, and that taking initiation and chanting the gayatri mantras increases the capacity of any devotee to improve the quality of his nama bhajana. Why is that so hard to understand?

[Puru_Das]

Excerpts from the Introduction to Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu

by Srila Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakura

Preface

Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, the crown prince of illustrious teachers among the Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas, is the author of this book. In this book there is a description of the nature of uttama-bhakti, its divisions, sadhana-bhakti, the stages in the dvelopment of prema, the angas of bhajana, offences committed in the performance of devotional service (sevapa-radha), offences against the holy name (namaparadha), vaidhi and raganuga-sadhana-bhakti, bhava-bhakti, prema-bhakti, and bhakti-rasa

 

". . . Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura describes a very striking event in his own book entitled Mantratha-dipika. Once while reading Sri Caitanya-caritamrta, he came upon the verse quoted below(Madhya-lila 21.125), which describes the meaning of the kama-gayatri-mantra.

kama-gayatri-mantra-rupa, haya krsnera svarupa,

sardha-cabbisa aksara tara haya

se aksara 'candra' haya, krsne kari' udaya,

trijagat kaila kamamaya

The kama-gayatri mantra is identical with Sri Krsna. In this king of mantras there are twenty-four and a half syllables and each syllable is a full moon. This aggregate of moons has caused the moon of Sri Krsna to rise and fill the three worlds with prema.

 

 

It is proved by the evidence of this verse that the kama-gayatri-mantra is composed of twenty-four and a half syllables. But in spite of considerable thought, Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti could not ascertain which syllable in the kama-gayatri was considered a half-syllable. Although he carefully scrutinized grammar books, the Puranas, the Tantra. The sastras dealing with drama (natya) and rhetoric (alankara), and other scriptures, he found no mention anywhere of a half-syllable. In all these satras he found mention of only the vowels and consonants which make up the fifty letters of the alphabet. He found no evidence anywhere of a half-syllable.

In the Sri Harinamamrta-vyakarana, the grammar system composed by Sri Jiva Gosvami, he found mention of only fifty letters in the section dealing with the names of the various groups of vowels and consonants. (sanjnapada). By the study of the arrangement of letters (matrka) in the Matrkanyasa and other books, he found no mention anywhere of a half-syllable. In the Radhika-sahasra-nama-stotra found in the Brhan-Naradiya Purana, one of the names of Vrndavanesvari Srimate Radhika is given as Pacasa-varna-rupini (one whose form is composed of fifty syllables).

Seeing this, his doubt only increased. He began to consider whether Kaviraja Gosvami might have made mistake while writing. But there was no possibility of him committing nay mistake. He was omniscient and thus completely devoid of the material defects of mistakes, illusion, and so on. If the fragmented letter ‘t’ (the final letter of the kama-gayatri–mantra) is taken as a half-syllable, then Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami would be guilty of the fault of disorder, for he has given the following description in Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya-lila 21.126-128):

sakhi he, krsna-mukha----dvija-raja-raja

krsna-vapu-simhasane, vasi' rajya-sasane,

kare sange candrera samaja

dui ganda sucikkana, jini' mani-sudarpana,

sei dui purna-candra jani

lalate astami-indu, tahate candana-bindu,

sei eka purna-candra mani

kara-nakha-candera hata, vamsi-upara kare nata,

tara gita muralira tana

pada-nakha-candra-gana,

tale kare nartana,nupurera dhvani yara gana

In these lines, Sri Krsnadas Kaviraja Gosvami has described the face of Sri Krsna as the first full moon. His two cheeks are both considered as full moons. The dot of sandalwood on the upper portion of His forehead is considered as the fourth full moon, and the region of the forehead below the dot of sandalwood is the moon of astami or, in other words, a half moon. According to this description, the fifth syllable is a half-syllable. If the fragmented ‘t’, which is the final letter of the mantra is taken as a half-syllable, then the fifth syllable could not be a half syllable.

Srila Visvanath Cakravarti Thakura fell into a dilemma because he could not decipher the half-syllable. He considered that if the syllables of the mantra would not reveal themselves, then neither would it be possible for the worshipful deity of the mantra to manifest to him. He decided that since he could not obtain audience of the worshipful deity of the mantra, it would be better to die. Thinking thus, he went to the bank of Radha-Kunda at night with the intent of giving up his body.

After the second period (prahara) of the night had passed, he began to doze off when suddenly, Sri Vrsabhanu-nandini, Srimati Radhika, appeared to him. . She very affectionately said, "O Visvanatha! O Hare Vallabha! Do not lament! Whatever Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja has written in the absolute truth. By My grace, he knows all the inner sentiments. The kama-gayatri is a mantra to worship Me and My dear beloved (prana-vallabha). We are revealed to the devotee by the syllables of this mantra. No one is capable of knowing Us without My grace. The half syllable is described in the book known as Varna Gamabhasvat." After consulting this book, Sri Krsnadas Kaviraja determined the actual identity of the kama-gayatri. " You should examine this book and then broadcast its meaning for the benefit of faithful persons."

After hearing this instruction form Vrsabhanu-nandini Srimati Radhika Herself, Visvanath Cakravarti Thakura suddenly arose. Calling out, "O Radhe! O Radhe!" he began to cry in great lamentation. Thereafter upon regaining his composure, he set himself to carrying out Her order.

According to the indication of Srimati Radharani regarding the determination of the half-syllable, the letter ‘vi’ which is preceded by the letter ‘ya’ in the mantra is considered as a half-syllable. Apart from this, all other syllables are full syllables or full moons.

By the mercy of Srimati Radhika, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura became acquainted with the meaning of the mantra. He obtained the direct audience of his worshipful deity, and by means of his internal perfected spiritual body (siddha-deha), he was able to participate in the Lord’s nitya-lila as an eternal associate. After this, he established the deity of Sri Gokulananda on the bank of Radha-Kunda. While residing there, he experienced the sweetness of the eternal pastimes of Sri Vrndavana. It was at this time that he wrote his Sukhavarttini commentary on Ananda-vrndavana-campu, a book written by Srila Kavi Karnapura.

radhaparastira-kutira-varttinah

praptavya-vrndavana cakravarttinah

ananda campu vivrti pravarttinah

santo-gattir me sumaha-nivarttinnah

In old age, Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura spent most of his time in a semi-conscious state, deeply absorbed in bhajana. His principal student, Baladeva Vidyabhusana, took over the responsibility of teaching the sastras.

Introduction to Bhakti-rsamrta-sindhu-bindu

translated by Srila B.V.Narayan Maharaja

*******************************************

If such a highly advanced liberated soul like Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, (who some acaryas consider a manifestation of Srila Rupa Gosvami), could only understand the meaning of the kama gayatri by receiving the direct mercy and darshan of Srimati Radharani Herself, then how will coniditioned souls like us ever understand and/or realize it? Only by Her mercy as well. So unless you are as fortunate to get the direct darshan of Srimati Radharani then only a bona fide spiritual master, Rupanuga Vaisnava,who is Her representative* can reveal the inner meaning of mantra to you, no one else. That is why Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura advises all devotees, (even those who have received this mantra from a bona fide diksa guru, representative of ourr guru parampara), to also hear further explanation and instructions concerning these mantras from a siksa guru. He wrote:

"(1) The svar.pa-jnana or intrinsic knowledge concerning the sadhaka (the practitioner), sadhana (the practice) and sadhya (the object of achievement) is nondifferent from the svarupa of suddha-bhakti. When such svarupa-jnana has not yet arisen within a sadhaka but the desire to cross over the ocean of material existence has come within him, then whatever symptoms of bhakti which are visible in him in that condition are merely bhakti-abhasa. This bhakti-abhasa transforms into suddha-bhakti when one obtains svarupa-jnana . Even for Vaisnavas who are duly initiated into the genuine sampradaya the vastu-prabha., or illumination of one’s eternal identity arising from their diksa.-mantra which they received from their diksa-guru, won’t appear until they receive this svarupa-jnana by the mercy of a siksa-guru. Due to ignorance of svarupa-jnana, svarupa-siddha.-bhakti remains covered and hence only bhakti-abhasa is visible.

. . . By the careful analysis of the words of the scriptures it is understood that by the influence of association with pure devotees chaya-bhakti-abhasa transforms into suddha-bhakti."

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

Chapter 2 Bhakti-tattva-viveka

[AranyaMj]

 

The manifestations of the nonmanifestive pastimes of Krsna with regard to the conditioned souls, are twofold, viz., (1) worship through the channel of the mantras (inaudibly recited, liberating, self-dedicatory. transcendental sounds), (2) spontaneous outflow of heart's spiritual love for Krsna. Sri Jiva Gosvāmī has said that worship through the mantra is possible permanently in the proper place, when confined to one pastime. This meditative manifestation of Goloka is the pastime attended with the worship of Krsna through the mantra. Again, the pastimes that are performed in different planes and in different moods, are autocratic in diverse ways; hence sva rasiki, i.e., spontaneous, outflow of heart's spiritual love for Krsna

- Brahma Samhita, commentary to verse 3

The Hare Krishna mahamantra can take us to the feet of Sri Krsna (CC Antya 3.137). But to approach Krsna we need to awaken a feeling of loving devotion to the Lord, and not be merely, to use Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's words, "mutterers of mantras". Whether you chant this mantra or that mantra, the essential thing is to develop a mood of surrender and devotion.

 

The gayatri mantras are simply meditations which are practiced during the stage of sadhana, and the importance of that mantra meditation withdraws from us when raga awakens

[Puru_Das]

 

". . . a bona fide spiritual master, Rupanuga Vaisnava,who is Her representative* can reveal the inner meaning of mantra to you, no one else.

*His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada confirms the identity of the sad-guru in this purport to Cc. Adi 1.46:

". . . Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura confirms that all the revealed scriptures accept the spiritual master to be identical with the Personality of Godhead because he is a very dear and confidential servant of the Lord. Gaudiya Vaisnavas therefore worship Srila Gurudeva (the spiritual master) in the light of his being the servitor of the Personality of Godhead. In all the ancient scriptures of devotional service and in the more recent songs of Srila Narottama dasa Thakura, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura and other unalloyed Vaisnavas, the spiritual master is always considered either one of the confidential associates of Srimati Radharani or a manifested representation of Srila Nityananda Prabhu.

Cc. Adi lila 1.46, purport

 

That is why Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura advises all devotees, (even those who have received this mantra from a bona fide diksa guru, representative of ourr guru parampara), to also hear further explanation and instructions concerning these mantras from a siksa guru

His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada has written in his purport to Cc. Adi lila 1.47

". . . There is no difference between the shelter-giving Supreme Lord and the initiating and instructing spiritual masters. If one foolishly discriminates between them, he commits an offense in the discharge of devotional service.

Cc. 1.47

The initiating spiritual master is a personal manifestation of Srila Madana-mohana vigraha, whereas the instructing spiritual master is a personal representative of Srila Govindadeva vigraha. Both of these Deities are worshiped at Vrndavana. Srila Gopinatha is the ultimate attraction in spiritual realization.

Cc. 1.46 purport

A devotee must have only one initiating spiritual master because in the scriptures acceptance of more than one is always forbidden. There is no limit, however, to the number of instructing spiritual masters one may accept.

Cc. Adi lila 1.35

[shiva]

Puru you quoted this from Srila Narayana Maharaja's translation of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's 'Bhakti-tattva-viveka'.

 

 

Even for Vaisnavas who are duly initiated into the genuine sampradaya the vastu-prabha., or illumination of one’s eternal identity arising from their diksa.-mantra which they received from their diksa-guru, won’t appear until they receive this svarupa-jnana by the mercy of a siksa-guru. Due to ignorance of svarupa-jnana, svarupa-siddha.-bhakti remains covered and hence only bhakti-abhasa is visible.

I cannot find any other translation of that work. Since what is presented sounds to me to be completely contradictory to gaudiya siddhanta from numerous acaryas and from other works of Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura I cannot accept it.

 

What I did find was Tripurari Swami commenting on the above. Here is what he says, in light of what I know from numerous other sources I fully agree with his conclusion.

 

 

Q: I have been told that "Bhaktivinoda Thakura states in Bhakti-tattva-viveka that unless a person receives svarupa-jnana (knowledge of one's spiritual identity/siddha-deha) from a siksa-guru, even though he is initiated in the sampradaya, realization of his eternal identity arising from his diksa mantra will not appear, and that his bhakti is only a shadow of real devotion." I did not receive this svarupa-jnana from my guru and others are encouraging me to go elsewhere to receive it from their guru. I trust your understanding and would like to have your advice on this subject.

 

A: Those who have told you this have misunderstood the instructions of Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Bhakti-tattva-viveka. I have read an English edition of the book in which this section is poorly translated and lends to misunderstanding. In the section of the book under discussion, Bhaktivinoda Thakura delineates what he calls bhakti-abhasa, a shadow of suddha-bhakti.

 

His discussion is based on the third chapter of the first wave of Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu. After describing various types of persons such as impersonalists, pancopasakas, etc. who are involved in only a reflection (pratibimba) or shadow (chaya) of suddha-bhakti, Sri Bhaktivinoda describes another type of practitioner whose bhakti is only a shadow of suddha-bhakti. He calls this type of devotee a sampradayika Vaisnava, or one who is initiated into the Gaudiya sampradaya yet is without what Bhaktivinoda Thakura calls svarupa-jnana. By the term svarupa-jnana in this context Bhaktivinoda Thakura is referring to knowledge (jnana) of the nature (svarupa) of suddha-bhakti and not one's "svarupa" or spiritual identity that arises from the cultivation of one's diksa mantra. The point he is making is that if one is properly initiated but does not receive instructions (siksa) from a qualified person regarding the nature of the true practitioner, the practice, and the goal, his initiation will not in and of itself bring about the desired result. At the time this book was written, it was common for persons to receive initiation but no instruction on tattva.

 

Immediately following the section cited in your question, Bhaktivinoda Thakura further explains his point thus: "The firm faith of the sampradayika (properly initiated) Vaisnava in the personhood of God is much stronger than that of the pancopasaka Vaisnavas. By receiving proper instruction on tattva, a properly initiated Vaisnava remains hopeful of reaching the high stage of unalloyed Vaisnavism (suddha-bhakti)." Thus it is important that we receive instructions on the nature of what we are initiated into from a qualified person. Proper diksa combined with this kind of siksa will enable us to realize our spiritual identity over time as we cultivate the ideal of pure devotion.

 

Q: In your answer regarding Bhakti-tattva-viveka you wrote: "By the term svarupa-jnana in this context Bhaktivinoda Thakura is referring to knowledge (jnana) of the nature (svarupa) of suddha-bhakti and not one's "svarupa" or spiritual identity that arises from the cultivation of one's diksa mantra". So are you saying here that experience of one's siddha-deha or spiritual identity in Krsna-lila is not imparted to the disciple through some type of initiation by a siksa- or diksa-guru as is done by some in the babaji section of Gaudiya Vaisnavism?

 

A: It is not wrong to tell one's disciple the nature of his svarupa and give instructions as to how to cultivate it in bhajana. However, this practice has been so abused that Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura did not stress it, nor was he instructed in this matter by Bhaktivinoda Thakura or Gaura Kisora dasa Babaji. Babaji Maharaja told him that he would realize his svarupa in the syllables of the Hare Krsna maha mantra.

 

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura taught that one's svarupa can be realized through bhajana even without being specifically told of one's paticular spiritual identity. The guru must give the mantra and impart knowledge of its significance. Within the mantra specific knowledge of one's relationship with Krsna is present, and it will arise as realized knowledge beginning with the stage of ruci, as ruci forms the basis of this identity of spiritual taste and feeling.

 

As I mentioned in my booklet Sri Guru-paramapara, even Nitai dasa, who is a strong advocate of practicing the siddha-pranali system and is outside of the line of Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati, acknowledges that one's svarupa can be realized through spiritual culture without being instructed about one's svarupa beforehand. Prabhupada did not receive what is sometimes called siddha-pranali diksa from Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, nor did Srila Sridhara Maharaja.

 

As I have quoted before, the following instructions of Bhaktivinoda Thakura are relevant to the discussion. He clearly explains that experience of one's internal spiritual form (svarupa) required for the culture of raganuga-bhakti proper is revealed by the grace of Krsna-nama:

 

isat vikasi punah dekhaya nija rupa guna

citta hari laya krsna pasa

purna vikasita hana vraje more jaya lana

dekhaya nija svarupa vilasa

 

"When the name is even slightly revealed it shows me my own spiritual form and characteristics. It steals my mind and takes it to Krsna's side. When the name is fully revealed, it takes me directly to Vraja, where it shows me my personal role in the eternal pastimes."

 

Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura emphasized this instruction and the overall efficacy of kirtana. We should follow his lead. Persons interested in this should read my booklet Sri Guru-Parampara.

 

What I am saying in the answer above is relevant to the section in Bhakti-tattva-viveka. Again, it does not imply that a qualified guru never reveals the nature of one's svarupa through explicit instructions before the disciple realizes it. However, again with emphasis, this is not the common practice in the Gaudiya Saraswata sampradaya, nor is it the topic under discussion in this section of Bhakti-tattva-viveka.

[AranyaMj]

Devotee: Rupa and Sanatan Goswami, did they have any mantra shishyas? Wasn't Jiva Goswami a mantra shishya of Rupa Goswami?

Sridhara Maharaja: Yes, and Rupa Goswami was the mantrashishya of Sanatan, Sanatan Goswami was the mantra shishya of Vidya Vacaspati. Vidya Vacaspati's brother was Sarvabhauma, a mayavadi. That is formal (diksa).

Devotee: Was that actually diksa or siksa? Between Rupa and Sanatan; they got mantram?

Sridhara Maharaja: They got mantram from their guru-- mantram. But what mantram? Mahaprabhu Himself got mantram, but according to His order, Sanatan Goswami has selected another mantram for the Gaudiya Vaisnavas. Mahaprabhu got the dvadasha mantram [ 12 syllables] from Ishvara Puri, but when ordered by Mahaprabhu to consult the the Vaisnava sastras and try to preach what the real conduct of a Vaisnava should be. "And I bless you that Krishna will guide you to compile a Vaisnava sruti and Sanatan Goswami did that accordingly, and he has collected the astadasakara mantra [eighteen syllable mantra: kleeng krishnaya govindaya gopijanaballavaya swaha] for us, and that is now in use. It is continuing in the sampradaya, and not the mantra that Mahaprabhu received from Ishvara Puri. But by the order of Mahaprabhu, this mantram came through Sanatan Goswami, this mantram came, astadasakara, and that is continuing and someone also amongst the Goswamis, they go on with that dvadashaksara mantra of Mahaprabhu.

[Puru_Das]

Shiva, It is very clear that you don't accept Srila Narayana Maharaja's explanations or translations. As you wish. Perhaps you should take shelter and initiation from Sripad Tripurari Swami as you find his explanation of svarupa jnana satsfying.

I personally don't see anything in his explanation that contradicts what Srila Narayana Maharaja is teaching about second initiation. If a sadhaka realizes the svarupa of suddha bhakti, how is that separate from realization of his svarupa siddhi. Seems to me that according to the teachings of our acaryas they are intimately connected. Consider that if one can realize of the istadeva of the guru gayatrai mantra, then how he can understand that without realizing his own svarupa (form)as well?

Sripad Tirupari Maharaja is explaining why Gaudiya Vaisnavas rely on realization of their svarupa siddhi from their nama bhajana, and under SBSST's direction generally refrain from hearing about the ekadasi bhavas (siddha pranali) seperately or before they are qualified by adhikara to realize them. The whole point of this discussion is that chanting the sampradaya mantras under the direciton of Sri Guru assists the devotee to become free from anarthas, in various ways, and allows him to one day realize the depth of the maha mantra, that Krsna is non different than His name, fame form and pastimes. God realizationl, self realization, realization of svarupa siddhi, suddha bhakti, are all connected to each other. Not one without the others.

Why not chant harinama and gayatri-mantra as well? If we want full understanding and realization of what is in the Hare Krsna mantra, because we are still conditioned souls, why not chant the gayatri mantras? You and theist don't want to hear those mantras from anyone. As you wish. You only deprive yourself.

In his lecture under discussion Srila Narayana Maharaja said:

" The gayatri-mantra gives all kinds of divya-jnana, transcendental knowledge, including the knowledge of krsna-tattva and jiva-tattva, and it also gives a relationship with Krsna. Nama alone will not give this relation to the person filled with anarthas."

filled with anarthas, don't avoid these words. How to get to suddha nama? Following the order of sad guru is the key. How can you get to that point alone, with no guidance?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja makes the same point in his explanation of the two circles and further explains how the brahma gayatri indicates Radha dasya, in his wonderful commentary on it. Srila Narayana Maharaja teaches the same thing Srila Prabhupada makes wonderful points about kama-gayatri in the Teachings of Lord Chaitanya Ch. 31, All of our acaryas are teaching the same thing regarding diksa mantras.

It is easy to make many false assumptions by reading shastra without hearing from anyone who is shastra saksus. No one but you ever assumed that these mantras work like instant cup of noodles or some mystical touchstone. That is your false conclusion from reading without hearing.

The sampradaya mantras are part of a whole process of devotional practices, of which chanting the maha mantra is the prime and essential element. The diksa process is taken in context of many things. There is no need to minimize the importance of the kama-gayatri mantra, and mentioning its glory in no way minimizes the glory of the Holy Name. If you can offer us an example of any bhaddha jiva who got beyond anartha nvrtti stage without the help of diksa from a sad guru I'd like to know who he is.

[shiva]

Puru das I disagree that ones "illumination of one’s eternal identity arising from their diksa.-mantra which they received from their diksa-guru" is a correct translation, or at least not a very good one since it implies the necessity of mantra diksa in order to realize one's siddha identity. The way Tripurari Swami explains that section of that book makes more sense:

 

"By the term svarupa-jnana in this context Bhaktivinoda Thakura is referring to knowledge (jnana) of the nature (svarupa) of suddha-bhakti and not one's "svarupa" or spiritual identity that arises from the cultivation of one's diksa mantra."

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja makes it seem that a person's siddha identity is revealed through the diksa mantra and the guru. And this seems to be a big thing amongst various others as well i.e the necessity of mantra diksa and guru in order to attain your siddha identity. I find that philosophy to be apasiddhanta. Discovery of ones spiritual identity is not dependent on mantra diksa nor on any guru, it is dependent on the will of the Lord in revealing that to you.

 

Anybody who says that mantra diksa is necessary or that a guru is needed to reveal your siddha identity is inexperienced in these matters. They may make a pretense of being siksa gurus on these higher topics, but it is obvious that they have no real experience of what they speak on.

[Puru_Das]

 

Anybody who says that mantra diksa is necessary or that a guru is needed to reveal your siddha identity is inexperienced in these matters. They may make a pretense of being siksa gurus on these higher topics, but it is obvious that they have no real experience of what they speak on.

You certainly have your opinion in this regard, and it is as apasiddhanta as anyone can get. Srila Prabhupada writes:

" . . . One should always remember that a person who is reluctant to accept a spiritual master and be initiated is sure to be baffled in his endeavor to go back to Godhead. One who is not properly initiated may present himself as a great devotee, but in fact he is sure to encounter many stumbling blocks on his path of progress toward spiritual realization, with the result that he must continue his term of material existence without relief. Such a helpless person is compared to a ship without a rudder, for such a ship can never reach its destination. It is imperative, therefore, that one accept a spiritual master if he at all desires to gain the favor of the Lord. The service of the spiritual master is essential. If there is no chance to serve the spiritual master directly, a devotee should serve him by remembering his instructions. There is no difference between the spiritual master's instructions and the spiritual master himself. In his absence, therefore, his words of direction should be the pride of the disciple. If one thinks that he is above consulting anyone else, including a spiritual master, he is at once an offender at the lotus feet of the Lord. Such an offender can never go back to Godhead. It is imperative that a serious person accept a bona fide spiritual master in terms of the sastric injunctions. Sri Jiva Gosvami advises that one not accept a spiritual master in terms of hereditary or customary social and ecclesiastical conventions. One should simply try to find a genuinely qualified spiritual master for actual advancement in spiritual understanding.

Cc. Adi lila 1.35 purport

And as I said before it is quite useless to try and discuss guru-tattva with someone who has no faith in the principle. If you dont believe what Krsna says in Bg. 4.34 then we have no discussion and it is most likely that because you don't believe in guru Krsna never directed you to one.

[shiva]

Puru you should realize that your attempts at changing the point I was making into something else will be a failure. I was being specific about mantra diksa being necessary for revelation of one's siddha identity. You're only concern is proselytizing to get people to submit to you and your guru.

 

From Srila Prabhupada

 

 

Well, initiation or no initiation, first thing is knowledge. (break) ...knowledge. Initiation is formality. Just like you go to a school for knowledge, and admission is formality. That is not very important thing.

(Interview, 16/10/76, Chandigarh)

 

Initiation is a formality. If you are serious, that is real initiation. My touch is simply a formality. It is your determination, that is initiation.

(BTG, Search for the Divine)

 

"...Regarding the disciplic succession coming from Arjuna, disciplic

succession does not always mean that one has to be initiated

officially. Disciplic succession means to accept the disciplic

conclusion."

 

(letter to dinesh 1969 by A.C Bhaktivedanta Swami)

From Jiva Goswami

 

 

The answer is that although it is correct that one who fully engages in chanting the holy name need not depend upon the process of initiation, generally a devotee is addicted to many abominable material habits due to material contamination from his previous life. In order to get quick relief from all these contaminations, it is required that one engage in the worship of the Lord in the temple. The worship of the Deity in the temple is essential to reduce one's restlessness due to the contaminations of conditional life. Thus Narada in his pancaratriki vidhi, and other great sages have sometimes stressed that since every conditioned soul has a bodily concept of life aimed at sense enjoyment the rules and regulations for worshipping the Deity in the temple are essential.

My point was about how the so called "Absolute Necessity of Second Initiation" is bogus. There is a huge difference between "helpful" and "absolute necessity". People who say that one's eternal relationship with the Lord is dependent on mantra diksa and an "Absolute necessity" are to me simply inexperienced with the real situation.

[theist]

 

Why not chant harinama and gayatri-mantra as well? If we want full understanding and realization of what is in the Hare Krsna mantra, because we are still conditioned souls, why not chant the gayatri mantras? You and theist don't want to hear those mantras from anyone. As you wish. You only deprive yourself.

Puru das, You mistake my position. I don't think myself above the platform where chanting gayatri would be helpful. At my level almost everything done in and around sadhana bhakti is helpful. Gayatri would be helpful but not for me because of my present formation of mind stuff. I am and always have been very unsteady and erratic in my sadhana even in respects to chanting the Maha-mantra. I do not hold natural brahminical tendancies, I have no desire to do pujari service. I am very much for brahmana's acting as brahmana's and as I understand gayatri is a requirement for worship the Deity as a pujari. I am not against gayatri but I do not believe it is not needed by everyone.

Simple.

My point is there is nothing I can gain from chanting gayatri that I cannot gain from the Hare Krsna mantra. So better I try to chant that. The idea that one cannot be cleansed of anarthas via the Hare Krsna mantra is to me absurd. Sorry to be so blunt.

[AranyaMj]

For anyone interested in understanding of how a sadhaka can realize their svarup siddhi, and whether or not one needs to be "told" about your siddha deha in order to realize it, please consult Govinda Bhasya in the section beginning 4.4.1, as well as Srila Sanatana Goswami's tika to verse 2.2.186 of Sri Brhadbhagavatamrtam.

 

This issue is a strong point of contention between the Radha-kunda babajis and their ilk and Srila Sridhar Maharaj and other genuine followers of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura. The point has been debated extensively, by persons interested in this topic, and even former adherents of the "babaji's doctrine" such as Jagat now openly admit that the proposition that you need to be "given" siddha-deha or "told" it is a fallacy. Indeed this fallacy is contrary to the teachings of Srila Sanatana Goswami.

 

Shiva is most certaily right, here.

[Puru_Das]

 

Puru you should realize that your attempts at changing the point I was making into something else will be a failure. I was being specific about mantra diksa being necessary for revelation of one's siddha identity. You're only concern is proselytizing to get people to submit to you and your guru.

Not so. Gurun is plural. Anything I've posted on this topic is not my own opinion or that of only Srila Narayana Maharaja.My only concern is that your opinions misrepresent Gaudiya Vaisnavism, and will not help anyone As much as you may try you cannot divorce the principles of guru-tattva from the topic.

 

My point was about how the so called "Absolute Necessity of Second Initiation" is bogus. There is a huge difference between "helpful" and "absolute necessity". People who say that one's eternal relationship with the Lord is dependent on mantra diksa and an "Absolute necessity" are to me simply inexperienced with the real situation.

Then the following list are inexperienced by your calculation.

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Srila Nityananda Prabhu | Sri Advaita Acarya

Srila Sanatana Goswami | Srila Rupa Goswami | Srila Jiva Goswami

Vaisnava Saints

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakura Prabhupada

Sri Srimad Srila Gaurakisora Dasa Babaji Maharaja

Sri Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada | Video

Sri Srimad Bhakti Prajnana Kesava Goswami

Sri Srimad Bhakti Saranga Gosvami Maharaja

Srila Bhakti Promod Puri Goswami

Sri Srimad Bhakti Sri-rupa Siddhanti Gosvami Maharaja

Srila Hrydaya Bon Maharaja

Srila Bhakti Kusum Sraman Goswami Maharaja

Srila Bhakti Dayita Madhava Maharaja

Srila Bhakti Rakshaka Sridhara Maharaja | Books | Audio

Srila Bhakti Kumud Santa Maharaja

Srila Bhakti Vaibhava Puri Goswami Maharaja | Audio | Video

Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada | Books | Photos | Audio | Videos

Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja | Audio

Srila Bhaktivedanta Vamana Maharaja

Srila Bhaktivedanta Trivikrama Maharaja | Video

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja | Books | Photos | Audio | Videos

Srila Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Maharaja

Srila Bhakti Bibudha Bodhayan Maharaja

 

[bhaktisar]

This sort of sophistry by Puru das is inexcusible.

 

Many of the people on this list he has given have made clear, unequivocal statements (some of them, in English) that a person need not necessarily receive gayatri diksa in order to "Go back to Godhead".

 

Srila Sridhara Maharaja's quotes have already been published on this thread. His statements are perfectly clear - for those who are listening and who are not sophists.

 

Examples? Take a look at CC Antya 3.137. The prostitute initiated into Sri Nama by Haridasa Thakura did not receive Gayatri, but she did "attain the feet of Krishna" as her accomplishement through Nama bhajan.

[Puru_Das]

 

This sort of sophistry by Puru das is inexcusible.

Many of the people on this list he has given have made clear, unequivocal statements (some of them, in English) that a person need not necessarily receive gayatri diksa in order to "Go back to Godhead".

Srila Sridhara Maharaja's quotes have already been published on this thread. His statements are perfectly clear - for those who are listening and who are not sophists.

The links on the list are hot. Kindly point out to me the unequivocal statements from anyone on this list that discourage anyone from following the first two angas of bhakti, as Srila Rupa Gosvami gave them. "need not necessarily" doesn't apply to conditioned souls in general, ony to liberated souls. Srila Sridhar Maharaja by his example both accepted and gave diksa mantras. Are you against anyone following his example?

[Puru_Das]

 

This sort of sophistry by Puru das is inexcusible.

Examples? Take a look at CC Antya 3.137. The prostitute initiated into Sri Nama by Haridasa Thakura did not receive Gayatri, but she did "attain the feet of Krishna" as her accomplishement through Nama bhajan.

If we meet Srila Haridas Thakura, and are present on the planet in proximity to the lila of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, then perhaps we can follow suit, otherwise not. We are all on the earth planet some 500 years removed from Gaura lila, and His representatives are not advocating nama bhajan without also accepting the purasacarya system and diksa. The purport to Cc. Madhya 15.108 speaks for itself for anyone who wants to take the time to read it.

http://bvml.org/books/CC/madhya/15.html

 

The answer is that although it is correct that one who fully engages in chanting the holy name need not depend upon the process of initiation, generally a devotee is addicted to many abominable material habits due to material contamination from his previous life. . .

". . . one who fully engages in chanting the holy name. need not depend upon the process of initiation, . . ."

And if you don't or can't fully engage in chanting the holy name it seems pretty logical to then depend, or take assistance from the process of initiation.

This has become a tal fruit discussion based on who you trust.

I think the thread should be closed and everyone should just do 64 rounds of nama bhajana every day instead of posting and try to fully chant the holy names.