Gayatri Mantra and knowledge

[bhaktisar]

Yes go off and do nama bhajan Puru

[bhaktisar]

 

The holy name of Krsna is so important that even the gayatri mantra may not be necessary. It is said na ca sat kriya, na dikse na ca purascarya manadilate mantrayam rasana spri hanato sri krsna namatmaka : "One need not undergo all the purificatory processes, or follow the six ritualistic ceremonies mentioned in the Vedas for pious life; one need not even take initiation into the gayatri mantra. If one simply chants the holy name of Krsna without offense, everything will be successful." The holy name of Krsna is the most important consideration. The gayatri mantra may not even be necessary.

We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajana, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise, it may not be necessary at all. It has been judged in such a way. The name alone can do everything for a person. lt is full and complete.

These are the direct words of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. To try and assert that he had a different point of view on this point is nothing more than sophistry.

[shiva]

 

The links on the list are hot. Kindly point out to me the unequivocal statements from anyone on this list that discourage anyone from following the first two angas of bhakti, as Srila Rupa Gosvami gave them. "need not necessarily" doesn't apply to conditioned souls in general, ony to liberated souls. Srila Sridhar Maharaja by his example both accepted and gave diksa mantras. Are you against anyone following his example?

It's not about teaching that you shouldn't take mantra diksa if you have the opportunity, it's about making false claims about the "absolute necessity" of taking mantra diksa. As far as saying only liberated souls don't need mantra diksa, that is a silly statement. Liberated souls don't need to do any sadhana or chant any mantra or do any purificatory rite of any type.

 

It's funny how you like to mention the purport to Madhya 15.108 as if it supports your views.

 

Here is the verse which the purport is for:

 

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

 

One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

 

And then this from the purport:

 

 

Similarly, the Ramarcana-candrika states:

 

vinaiva diksam viprendra purascaryam vinaiva hi

vinaiva nyasa-vidhina japa-matrena siddhi-da

 

"O best of the brahmanas, even without initiation, preliminary purification or acceptance of the renounced order, one can attain perfection in devotional service simply by chanting the Lord's holy name."

 

In other words, the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in pancaratra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Krsna consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished. The more one is freed from material identification, the more one can realize that the spirit soul is qualitatively as good as the Supreme Soul. At such a time, when one is situated on the absolute platform, one can understand that the holy name of the Lord and the Lord Himself are identical. At that stage of realization, the holy name of the Lord, the Hare Krsna mantra, cannot be identified with any material sound. If one accepts the Hare Krsna maha-mantra as a material vibration, he falls down. One should worship and chant the holy name of the Lord by accepting it as the Lord Himself. One should therefore be initiated properly according to revealed scriptures under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Although chanting the holy name is good for both the conditioned and liberated soul, it is especially beneficial to the conditioned soul because by chanting it one is liberated. When a person who chants the holy name is liberated, he attains the ultimate perfection by returning home, back to Godhead. In the words of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi 7.73):

 

krsna-mantra haite habe samsara-mocana

krsna-nama haite pabe krsnera carana

 

"Simply by chanting the holy name of Krsna one can obtain freedom from material existence. Indeed, simply by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra one will be able to see the lotus feet of the Lord."

 

The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. Although initiation may depend on purascarya or purascarana, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on purascarya-vidhi, or the regulative principles. If one chants the holy name even once without committing an offense, he attains all success. During the chanting of the holy name, the tongue must work. Simply by chanting the holy name, one is immediately delivered. The tongue is sevonmukha-jihva -- it is controlled by service. One whose tongue is engaged in tasting material things and also talking about them cannot use the tongue for absolute realization.

The part you think supports your views should be taken into consideration with the above. We have Sri Caitanya telling us:

 

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

 

One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

 

Acaryas may at various times speak of the importance of mantra diksa as being helpful and that people should be initiated if they can, but Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has it made it clear that it is not an "absolute necessity".

 

Now here we see Mahaprabhu giving us another definition of diksa.

 

Cc Antya 4.192-3

 

 

diksa-kale bhakta kare atma-samarpana

sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama

 

At the time of initiation, when a devotee fully surrenders unto the service of the Lord, Krsna accepts him to be as good as Himself.

 

sei deha kare tara cid-ananda-maya

aprakrta-dehe tanra carana bhajaya

 

When the devotee's body is thus transformed into spiritual existence, the devotee, in that transcendental body, renders service to the lotus feet of the Lord.

So are we to believe that when a householder undergoes the panca samskara mantra diksa, that is the exact same thing as what Mahaprabhu describes as Diksa?

 

Mahaprabhu answers in the verse that follows the above two.

 

 

martyo yada tyakta-samasta-karma

niveditatma vicikirsito me

tadamrtatvam pratipadyamano

mayatma-bhuyaya ca kalpate vai

 

The living entity who is subjected to birth and death attains immortality when he gives up all material activities, dedicates his life to the execution of My order, and acts according to My directions. In this way he becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss derived from exchanging loving mellows with Me.

This is Mahaprabhus definition of diksa, he quotes Sri Krishna from the 11th canto 29th chapter of the Bhagavatam.

 

And what context was Sri Krishna speaking in? From 11.29 where Sri Krishna explains Bhakti Yoga to Uddhava:

 

 

 

The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: Yes, I shall describe to you the principles of devotion to Me, by executing which a mortal human being will conquer unconquerable death.

 

Always remembering Me, one should perform all his duties for Me without becoming impetuous. With mind and intelligence offered to Me, one should fix his mind in attraction to My devotional service.

 

One should take shelter of holy places where My saintly devotees reside, and one should be guided by the exemplary activities of My devotees, who appear among the demigods, demons and human beings.

 

Either alone or in public gatherings, with singing, dancing and other exhibitions of royal opulence, one should arrange to celebrate those holy days, ceremonies and festivals set aside specially for My worship.

 

With a pure heart one should see Me, the Supreme Soul within all beings and also within oneself, to be both unblemished by anything material and also present everywhere, both externally and internally, just like the omnipresent sky.

 

O brilliant Uddhava, one who thus views all living entities with the idea that I am present within each of them, and who by taking shelter of this divine knowledge offers due respect to everyone, is considered actually wise. Such a man sees equally the brahmana and the outcaste, the thief and the charitable promoter of brahminical culture, the sun and the tiny sparks of fire, the gentle and the cruel.

 

For him who constantly meditates upon My presence within all persons, the bad tendencies of rivalry, envy and abusiveness, along with false ego, are very quickly destroyed.

 

Disregarding the ridicule of one's companions, one should give up the bodily conception and its accompanying embarrassment. One should offer obeisances before all -- even the dogs, outcastes, cows and asses -- falling flat upon the ground like a rod.

 

Until one has fully developed the ability to see Me within all living beings, one must continue to worship Me by this process with the activities of his speech, mind and body.

 

By such transcendental knowledge of the all-pervading Personality of Godhead, one is able to see the Absolute Truth everywhere. Freed thus from all doubts, one gives up fruitive activities.

 

Indeed, I consider this process -- using one's mind, words and bodily functions for realizing Me within all living beings -- to be the best possible method of spiritual enlightenment.

 

My dear Uddhava, because I have personally established it, this process of devotional service unto Me is transcendental and free from any material motivation. Certainly a devotee never suffers even the slightest loss by adopting this process.

 

O Uddhava, greatest of saints, in a dangerous situation an ordinary person cries, becomes fearful and laments, although such useless emotions do not change the situation. But activities offered to Me without personal motivation, even if they are externally useless, amount to the actual process of religion.

 

This process is the supreme intelligence of the intelligent and the cleverness of the most clever, for by following it one can in this very life make use of the temporary and unreal to achieve Me, the eternal reality.

 

Thus have I related to you -- both in brief and in detail -- a complete survey of the science of the Absolute Truth. Even for the demigods, this science is very difficult to comprehend.

 

I have repeatedly spoken this knowledge to you with clear reasoning. Anyone who properly understands it will become free from all doubts and attain liberation.

 

Anyone who fixes his attention on these clear answers to your questions will attain to the eternal, confidential goal of the Vedas -- the Supreme Absolute Truth.

 

One who liberally disseminates this knowledge among My devotees is the bestower of the Absolute Truth, and to him I give My very own self.

 

He who loudly recites this supreme knowledge, which is the most lucid and purifying, becomes purified day by day, for he reveals Me to others with the lamp of transcendental knowledge.

 

Anyone who regularly listens to this knowledge with faith and attention, all the while engaging in My pure devotional service, will never become bound by the reactions of material work.

 

My dear friend Uddhava, have you now completely understood this transcendental knowledge? Are the confusion and lamentation that arose in your mind now dispelled?

 

You should not share this instruction with anyone who is hypocritical, atheistic or dishonest, or with anyone who will not listen faithfully, who is not a devotee, or who is simply not humble.

 

This knowledge should be taught to one who is free from these bad qualities, who is dedicated to the welfare of the brahmanas, and who is kindly disposed, saintly and pure. And if common workers and women are found to have devotion for the Supreme Lord, they are also to be accepted as qualified hearers.

 

When an inquisitive person comes to understand this knowledge, he has nothing further to know. After all, one who has drunk the most palatable nectar cannot remain thirsty.

 

Through analytic knowledge, ritualistic work, mystic yoga, mundane business and political rule, people seek to advance in religiosity, economic development, sense gratification and liberation. But because you are My devotee, whatever men can accomplish in these multifarious ways you will very easily find within Me.

 

A person who gives up all fruitive activities and offers himself entirely unto Me, eagerly desiring to render service unto Me, achieves liberation from birth and death and is promoted to the status of sharing My own opulences.

 

Sukadeva Gosvami said: Hearing these words spoken by Lord Krsna, and having thus been shown the entire path of yoga, Uddhava folded his hands to offer obeisances. But his throat choked up with love and his eyes overflowed with tears; so he could say nothing.

 

Steadying his mind, which had become overwhelmed with love, Uddhava felt extremely grateful to Lord Krsna, the greatest hero of the Yadu dynasty. My dear King Pariksit, Uddhava bowed down to touch the Lord's lotus feet with his head and then spoke with folded hands.

 

Sri Uddhava said: O unborn, primeval Lord, although I had fallen into the great darkness of illusion, my ignorance has now been dispelled by Your merciful association. Indeed, how can cold, darkness and fear exert their power over one who has approached the brilliant sun?

 

In return for my insignificant surrender, You have mercifully bestowed upon me, Your servant, the torchlight of transcendental knowledge. Therefore, what devotee of Yours who has any gratitude could ever give up Your lotus feet and take shelter of another master?

So in conclusion, here we find Sri Krishna giving his opinion of what constitutes "dharman su-mangalan", do we find any reference to Mantra diksa being necessary ?

 

Nope.

 

How about Mahaprabhus definition of Diksa ?

 

diksa-kale bhakta kare atma-samarpana

 

He equates Diksa with "samarpana", full dedication. At that time the devotee becomes:

 

sei-kale krsna tare kare atma-sama

 

Krishna makes the devotee or accepts the devotee to be as good as Himself.

 

And then:

 

martyo yada tyakta-samasta-karma

niveditatma vicikirsito me

tadamrtatvam pratipadyamano

mayatma-bhuyaya ca kalpate vai

 

 

The living entity who is subjected to birth and death attains immortality when he gives up all material activities, dedicates his life to the execution of My order, and acts according to My directions. In this way he becomes fit to enjoy the spiritual bliss derived from exchanging loving mellows with Me.

[bhaktisar]

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

 

Shiva, you beat me to it, when you posted this verse!

 

Mahaprabhu's name shouldn't be on Puru's list. Nor should Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada's name.

[Guest guest]

Why do you fellow think you can follow Mahaprabhu and Sri Krsna and at the same time ignore Srila Rupa Gosvami?

[Puru_Das]

 

The holy name of Krsna is so important that even the gayatri mantra may not be necessary. It is said na ca sat kriya, na dikse na ca purascarya manadilate mantrayam rasana spri hanato sri krsna namatmaka : "One need not undergo all the purificatory processes, or follow the six ritualistic ceremonies mentioned in the Vedas for pious life; one need not even take initiation into the gayatri mantra. If one simply chants the holy name of Krsna without offense, everything will be successful." The holy name of Krsna is the most important consideration. The gayatri mantra may not even be necessary.

We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajana, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise, it may not be necessary at all. It has been judged in such a way. The name alone can do everything for a person. lt is full and complete.

 

These are the direct words of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. To try and assert that he had a different point of view on this point is nothing more than sophistry.

What is there about the highlighted words that escapes you?

[Puru_Das]

 

It's funny how you like to mention the purport to Madhya 15.108 as if it supports your views.

Not funny at all. Read the purport:

TEXT 108

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

SYNONYMS

diksa--initiation; purascarya--activities before initiation; vidhi--regulative principles; apeksa--reliance on; na--not; kare--does; jihva--the tongue; sparse--by touching; a-candala--even to the lowest of men, the candala; sabare--everyone; uddhare--delivers.

TRANSLATION

"One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered.

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Gosvami explains diksa in his Bhakti-sandarbha (283):

divyam jnanam yato dadyat

kuryat papasya sanksayam

tasmad dikseti sa prokta

desikais tattva-kovidaih

"Diksa is the process by which one can awaken his transcendental knowledge and vanquish all reactions caused by sinful activity. A person expert in the study of the revealed scriptures knows this process as diksa." The regulative principles of diksa are explained in the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.3,4) and in Bhakti-sandarbha (283). As stated:

dvijanam anupetanam svakarmadhyayanadisu

yathadhikaro nastiha syac copanayanad anu

tathatradiksitanam tu mantra-devarcanadisu

nadhikaro 'sty atah kuryad atmanam siva-samstutam

"Even though born in a brahmana family, one cannot engage in Vedic rituals without being initiated and having a sacred thread. Although born in a brahmana family, one becomes a brahmana after initiation and the sacred thread ceremony. Unless one is initiated as a brahmana, he cannot worship the holy name properly."

According to the Vaisnava regulative principles, one must be initiated as a brahmana. The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.6) quotes the following injunction from the Visnu-yamala:

adiksitasya vamoru

krtam sarvam nirarthakam

pasu-yonim avapnoti

diksa-virahito janah

"Unless one is initiated by a bona fide spiritual master, all his devotional activities are useless. A person who is not properly initiated can descend again into the animal species."

Hari-bhakti-vilasa (2.10) further quotes:

ato gurum pranamyaivam

sarva-svam vinivedya ca

grhniyad vaisnavam mantram

diksa-purvam vidhanatah

"It is the duty of every human being to surrender to a bona fide spiritual master. Giving him everything-body, mind and intelligence-one must take a Vaisnava initiation from him."

The Bhakti-sandarbha (298) gives the following quotation from the Tattva-sagara:

yatha kancanatam yati

kasyam rasa-vidhanatah

tatha diksa-vidhanena

dvijatvam jayate nrnam

"By chemical manipulation, bell metal is turned into gold when touched by mercury; similarly, when a person is properly initiated, he can acquire the qualities of a brahmana."

The Hari-bhakti-vilasa (17.11,12) in discussing the purascarya process, quotes the following verses from Agastya-samhita:

puja traikaliki nityam

japas tarpanam eva ca

homo brahmana-bhuktis ca

purascaranam ucyate

guror labdhasya mantrasya

prasadena yatha-vidhi

pancangopasana-siddhyai

puras caitad vidhiyate

"In the morning, afternoon and evening, one should worship the Deity, chant the Hare Krsna mantra, offer oblations, perform a fire sacrifice, and feed the brahmanas. These five activities constitute purascarya. To attain full success when taking initiation from the spiritual master, one should first perform these purascarya processes."

The word purah means "before" and carya means "activities." Due to the necessity of these activities, we do not immediately initiate disciples in the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. For six months, a candidate for initiation must first attend arati and classes in the sastras, practice the regulative principles and associate with other devotees. When one is actually advanced in the purascarya-vidhi, he is recommended by the local temple president for initiation. It is not that anyone can be suddenly initiated without meeting the requirements. When one is further advanced by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra sixteen rounds daily, following the regulative principles and attending classes, he receives the sacred thread (brahminical recognition) after the second six months.

In the Hari-bhakti-vilasa (17.4,5,7) it is stated:

vina yena na siddhah syan

mantro varsa-satair api

krtena yena labhate

sadhako vanchitam phalam

purascarana-sampanno

mantro hi phala-dhayakah

atah puraskriyam kuryat

mantravit siddhi-kanksaya

puraskriya hi mantranam

pradhanam viryam ucyate

virya-hino yatha dehi

sarva-karmasu na ksamah

purascarana-hino hi

tatha mantrah prakirtitah

"Without performing the purascarya activities, one cannot become perfect even by chanting this mantra for hundreds of years. However, one who has undergone the purascarya-vidhi process can attain success very easily. If one wishes to perfect his initiation, he must first undergo the purascarya activities. The purascarya process is the life-force by which one is successful in chanting the mantra. Without the life-force, one cannot do anything; similarly, without the life force of purascarya-vidhi, no mantra can be perfected."

In his Bhakti-sandarbha (283), Srila Jiva Gosvami states:

yadyapi sri-bhagavata-mate pancaratradi-vat arcana-margasya avasyakatvam nasti, tad vinapi saranapattyadinam ekatarenapi purusartha-siddher abhihitatvat, tathapi sri-naradadi-vartmanusaradbhih sri-bhagavata saha sambandha-visesam diksa-vidhanena sri-guru-carana-sampaditam cikirsadbhih krtayam diksayam arcanam avasyam kriyetaiva.

Of similar importance is diksa, which is explained as follows in Bhakti-sandarbha (284):

yadyapi svarupato nasti, tathapi prayah svabhavato dehadi-sambandhena kardaya-silanam viksipta-cittanam jananam tat-tat-sankoci-karanaya srimad-rsi-prabhrtibhir atrarcana-marge kvacit kvacit kacit kacin maryada sthapitasti.

Similarly in the Ramarcana-candrika it is stated:

vinaiva diksam viprendra

purascaryam vinaiva hi

vinaiva nyasa-vidhina

japa-matrena siddhida

In other words, the chanting of the Hare Krsna maha-mantra is so powerful that it does not depend on official initiation, but if one is initiated and engages in pancaratra-vidhi (Deity worship), his Krsna consciousness will awaken very soon, and his identification with the material world will be vanquished. The more one is freed from material identification, the more one can realize that the spirit soul is qualitatively as good as the Supreme Soul. At such a time, when one is situated on the absolute platform, he can understand that the holy name of the Lord and the Lord Himself are identical. At that stage of realization, the holy name of the Lord, the Hare Krsna mantra, cannot be identified with any material sound. If one accepts the Hare Krsna maha-mantra as a material vibration, he falls down. One should worship and chant the holy name of the Lord by accepting it as the Lord Himself. One should therefore be initiated properly according to revealed scriptures under the direction of a bona fide spiritual master. Although chanting the holy name is good for both the conditioned and liberated soul, it is especially beneficial to the conditioned soul because by chanting it one is liberated. When a person who chants the holy name is liberated, he attains the ultimate perfection by returning home, back to Godhead. In the words of Sri Caitanya-caritamrta (Adi 7.73):

krsna-mantra haite habe samsara-mocana

krsna-nama haite pabe krsnera carana

"Simply by chanting the holy name of Krsna one can obtain freedom from material existence. Indeed, simply by chanting the Hare Krsna mantra one will be able to see the lotus feet of the Lord."

The offenseless chanting of the holy name does not depend on the initiation process. Although initiation may depend on purascarya or purascarana, the actual chanting of the holy name does not depend on purascarya-vidhi, or the regulative principles. If one chants the holy name once without committing an offense, he attains all success. During the chanting of the holy name, the tongue must work. Simply by chanting the holy name, one is immediately delivered. The tongue is sevonmukha-jihva-it is controlled by service. One whose tongue is engaged in tasting material things and also talking about them cannot use the tongue for absolute realization.

atah sri-krsna-namadi

na bhaved grahyam indriyaih

sevonmukhe hi jihvadau

svayam eva sphuraty adah

According to Caitanya-caritamrta (Madhya 17.134):

ataeva krsnera 'nama', 'deha', 'vilasa'

prakrtendriya-grahya nahe, haya sva-prakasa

"With these material senses, one cannot understand the transcendental holy name of the Lord or His form, activities and pastimes. However, when one actually engages in devotional service, utilizing the tongue, the Lord is revealed."

Cc. Madhya 15,108

This purport doesn't offer initiation as an option. Interesting that Srila Prabhupada also refered to Srila Jiva Gosvami's Bhakti Sandharba anuucheda 283-4 in discussing the topic. You better keep him on the list.

[Puru_Das]

Yes go off and do nama bhajan Puru

If you and Shiva and Theist agree to join me and stop posting then I will gladly join you all.

[theist]

I'm out.

Hare Krsna

[Puru_Das]

Upanayana is the process of being connected to the Guru. This refers to the function of the shiksha Guru. The shiksha Gurus may be many, but the diksha Guru is only one. The shiksha Gurus are the associated counterparts of the diksha Guru who is the associated counterwhole of the Divinity Himself. There is thus only one diksha Guru who is associated with his infinity of agents or limbs whose function is to lead the intending disciple to the diksha Guru. The diksha Guru may, indeed, be also the shiksha Guru, but not necessarily so. The distinction between the shiksha Guru and the diksha Guru is one relating to their respective spiritual functions which do not involve any unwholesome implication of inferiority in the mundane sense. The shiksha Guru is, therefore, to be as much obeyed by the disciple as the diksha Guru himself.

The function of diksha, in its ritualistic aspect, consists of the process of imparting the mantra by the diksha Guru which is spoken by him into the ear of the disciple without being allowed to be heard by any other person. It is the method of Truth communicating Himself to an individual soul in the Form of the Transcendental sound Appearing on the lips of His devotee. The mantra, as we have explained elsewhere, is the Holy Name in the Form in which He is coupled with the process of self dedication of an individual to the Guru. It is a specific matter that delivers the particular individual from the grip of all mental delusion by making him throw himself on the protection of the Name under the exclusive direction of the Guru. The process of initiation is not a limited one. It is as much a continued process as the process of being helped by the shiksha Guru for approaching the diksha Guru. No one of these processes is capable of terminating is a limited result. They are eternally co-present in a relation that is progressive but without being hampered by the unwholesome imperfection of the principle of limitation.

 

It has been necessary to explain the process of entry into the spiritual life in some detail for several reasons. A good deal of misconception has gathered round the issue. This misconception is responsible for the mushroom growth of an endless variety of pseudo-forms of the process that are being constantly manufactured by quacks and knaves for leading astray simpletons and rascals, by the offer of their support to diverse forms of pernicious worldly activities. It is not also easy to withstand the temptation of being misled by the appeal to the principle of pseudo-ethics manufactured by intellectualists for justifying a life of the sensualists’ paradise for belittling the spiritual issue which transcends the petty concerns of a nine days’ existence. It is absolutely necessary to have this sense of perspective, if one is not to miss the only purpose for which the subject, treated in this work has been offered to his unbiased and serious consideration. . .. We only invite our readers to lend their receptive ear to the narration of the actual conduct of Nimai Pandit, as He manifested Himself to this world, after He had received spiritual enlightenment by unconditional submission to the feet of the bona fide spiritual Guide. By the process of diksha, with the intention of trying to enter the spirit of the same from the point of view of the Narrative itself that has been handed down by the succession of the spiritual teachers.

 

The boon for which Nimai Pandit prayed to Sree Iswara Puri, was love for Krishna. He surrendered to Sree Iswara Puri His Body and Mind unconditionally for the attainment of the above purpose. When one obtains the actual sight of the bona fide Spiritual Guide, that is of the real exclusive servant of the Absolute, by the grace of Godhead, the duty, that he has to perform on his side, is to make the unconditional surrender of himself to the Feet of the bona fide agent of the Absolute. This is the logical and consistent course but is impossible of realization in practice except by divine grace.

 

If the complete surrender to the Guru is made the spiritual mantra reveals himself to the disciple. . .

 

excerpted from :

The Career and Teachings of the Supreme Lord Sree Krishna-Chaitanya

by Sri Narayan Das Bhakti Sadhukar

CHAPTER XXIII

 

 

HIS INITIATION—(Cont.)

http://www.bvml.org/contemporary/TCATOTSLSKC/23.html

Read the entire article and then kindly put Mahaprabhu back on the list along with His Divine Grace Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada.

[bhaktisar]

You can cut and paste to your heat's content Puru das.

 

But when Srila Sridhar Maharaj spoke about mantra diksa and said "it may not be necessary at all" I take the direct meaning of what he said to be the actual message he was speaking.

 

Gayatri:

it may not be necessary at all

[Puru_Das]

 

. . . This is Mahaprabhus definition of diksa, he quotes Sri Krishna from the 11th canto 29th chapter of the Bhagavatam.

And what context was Sri Krishna speaking in? From 11.29 where Sri Krishna explains Bhakti Yoga to Uddhava:

So in conclusion, here we find Sri Krishna giving his opinion of what constitutes "dharman su-mangalan", do we find any reference to Mantra diksa being necessary ?

Nope.

That may be your conclusion. Uddhava was an intimate associate of the Lord in Mathura. Krsna sent him to the vraja to learn about vraja prema from Srimati Radharani and the gopis directly. Do you believe that what Sri Krsna instructed him will suffice for conditioned souls like us?

You also won't find anything stated by Krsna in Bhagavad-gita about diksa being necessary. He does advise us to surrender to a guru in 4.34, and he does advise us to always remember Him in 9.34 .

In the second chapter of the Gita when Arjuna surrenders to Sri Krsna and accepts him as his guru, they don't get off the chariot and hold a fire yajna, re name Arjuna and give him japa beads either. If you are Krsna's eternal friend like Arujuna, you can surrender directly to Sri Krnsa as he did without diksa. I can't find anything written in the Gita or Mahabharata, about Arjuna and the other Pandavas chanting japa mala or gayatri.We can read in the Srimad Bhagavatam that they left this world and went back to godhead in their self same bodies. Those bodies were not like ours. Should we cut off our brahmana threads and retire our bead bags and get a brahmastra weapon and other divine weapons? I think not.

[Puru_Das]

 

You can cut and paste to your heat's content Puru das.

But when Srila Sridhar Maharaj spoke about mantra diksa and said "it may not be necessary at all" I take the direct meaning of what he said to be the actual message he was speaking.

Gayatri:

it may not be necessary at all

And when is it not necessary? When you chant suddha nama, otherwise not. Why does that point escape you.

". . . one need not even take initiation into the gayatri mantra. If one simply chants the holy name of Krsna without offense, everything will be successful." The holy name of Krsna is the most important consideration. The gayatri mantra may not even be necessary.

We accept the mantra only to help the nama-bhajana, the worship of the holy name. Otherwise, it may not be necessary at all."

If you don't chant nam bhajana without offense that is another matter. Seems pretty straightforward to me. gayatrai manta may indeed not be necessary, and it may also be absolutely necessary. Depends on the quality of your nama bhajana.

[bhaktisar]

You are trying to tell us that it is impossible to chant the suddha-nama without having received gayatri mantra diksa.

 

I don't accept that to be true. Your guru may say it is so, but Mahaprabhu said otherwise.

 

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

 

Take Mahaprabhu's name off your list, along with the many others who you wrongfully say are supporting your apasiddhantic conclusions.

 

The soul is already pure and by chanting without offence we can reawaken our soul from the material dream the soul is currently engaged in.

 

krsna prema nitya siddha sadhya kabu naya,

sravanadi suddha citte karaye udaya

Sravanadi - by hearing and chanting we reawaken our soul from the illusion of Maya. Gayatri may be heard and chanted by the soul, but even without gayatri he can still become pure. Gayatri may not be necessary at all

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

To the person who is using the names AranyaMj and Bhaktisar (both the same person). Either choose a different name, or in the rare event you are the person you claim, verify your identity by using the contact us link at the bottom of the page. We do not want anyone misrepresenting well known people. If no verification is provided within a few days these posts will be changed to guest posts.

[Puru_Das]

I am not trying to tell you (Bhaktisar / Aranya mj) and shiva anything. None so blind as will not see, none so deaf as will not hear. Frankly I'm only trying to repeat the instructions and observations of our guru varga for anyone else who might take interest..

 

No one comes off the list. They all agree that we should take shelter at the lotus feet of a sad guru. Know any sad guru since SBSST who did not accept diksa himself, and did not offer it to his sincere followers? I think not. The apasiddhanta stays in your camp, not mine.

 

Anyway the moderator can read your isp, so you should really use your own name. You are still on line. Nothing more to say?

[bhaktisar]

I expect the moderator is also able to see that you have been posting under a number of logins too, Puru, before I logged in as a member.

[Puru_Das]

 

I expect the moderator is also able to see that you have been posting under a number of logins too, Puru, before I logged in as a member.

I think I might have put up one or two short observations when I forgot to log in, but I'm not at all hesitant to use my own name. You can have my address and phone number and email also, if you want to speak to me.

[Puru_Das]

 

You are trying to tell us that it is impossible to chant the suddha-nama without having received gayatri mantra diksa.

I don't accept that to be true. Your guru may say it is so, but Mahaprabhu said otherwise.

The suggestion that Srila Narayana Maharaja disagrees with Mahaprabhu because of how YOU interpret shastra, is offensive. Srila Naryana Maharaja certainly is saying that it is impossible to chant the suddha nama without diska samskara if you are a neophyte in the "first stages" of bhakti. He said:

[srila Narayana Maharaja:] I think you have all understood the argument; now you should try very carefully to understand the reply so that you can reconcile all the statements. Someone has presented the idea that the acceptance of diksa is not essential, and he has indirectly indicated the verse:

 

diksa-purascarya-vidhi apeksa na kare

jihva-sparse a-candala sabare uddhare

 

 

["One does not have to undergo initiation or execute the activities required before initiation. One simply has to vibrate the holy name with his lips. Thus, even a man in the lowest class [candala] can be delivered."]

The holy name is sufficient. The holy name is very powerful and can fulfill all desires. The name will even give vraja-prema. What, then, is the need of taking initiation? The paper has quoted my statement, along with the statement of Prapujya-carana Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja; so I want to reconcile all statements. It is true that diksa-purascarya (initiation and the purificatory activities performed before initiation) is not needed in all circumstances; but we should know something about the actual meaning of this verse. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada has written a book of rules and regulations in deity worship called Arcana Dipika, and there he has explained that harinama is bhagavata-svarupa, the actual form of Krsna and Radha, and for this reason it is stated in Sri Siksastakam, "Param vijayate sri krsna-sankirtana." By chanting and remembering Krsna's names, all kinds of perfection — like vraja-prema and even radha-dasya (becoming a maid servant of Srimati Radhika) — can be attained. In the first stage, however, when a devotee is uttering the holy name he is full with many aparadhas, and also anarthas such as laya (sleep), viksepa (distraction), apratipatti (indifference or disinterest in spiritual topics), and so on. It is guaranteed that such a person cannot utter the pure name. Rather, his chanting will be nama-aparadha. Chanting the pure name is only possible after the diksa-samskara. . . "

It is not my opinion. I don't presume to think I can understand anything concerning spiritual life better than our acaryas do. In this day and age there seem to be plenty of aspiring devotees who think they can go Back to Godhead without any sad guru. You are not alone, there are so many misconceptions about Krsna Consciousness that are spreading like germs of plague. And if you aren't bhaktisar then you better identify yourself.

btw who is your spiritual master. We know shiva doesn't have one or think he needs one. What about you?

[Puru_Das]

excerpted from <CENTER>Pancha Samskara: The Process of Initiation

 

</CENTER><CENTER>by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura

</CENTER>

http://bvml.org/SBTP/pstpoi.html

". . . Nama or name is the third samskara. Mercifully the teacher utters the name of Hari into the ear of the faithful student. This name is to be recited daily by the student. [Receiving name means that one understands one's self to be a servant of Hari. During initiation the teacher also gives a personal name to the student which indicates devotion to Hari. In the Sri Sampradaya of Ramanuja, names like Rama Krishna Dasa, Narayana Dasa, Ramanuja Dasa etc. are given. In the Gaudiya Sampradaya names such as Sri Govinda Dasa, Sri Nityananda Dasa, Sri Chaitanya Dasa etc. are used. Since the time of Sriman Mahaprabhu names like Ratnabahu, Kavikarnapura, Premanidhi etc. have been used. Subsequently even names such as Bhagavatabhusana, Gitabhusana, Bhaktibhusana etc. are employed.]

The fourth samskara is mantra. Out of his mercy the teacher gives an 18 syllable mantra to his beloved student. [Mantra is the recitation of a short prayer which corresponds to the particular deity one worships. In the worship of Krishna an 18 syllable mantra is given.]

The fifth and final samskara is yaga or deity worship. Using the mantra which he has received from his teacher, the student begins the worship of salagrama sila or sri murti, the Deity of Vishnu. This is known as yaga. By receiving panca-samskara, the five sacraments, a faithful person enters into bhajana-kriya or the personal worship of God, which eventually leads to pure love for Sri Hari.

When we analyze the stages that lead to love of God, we understand that faith or sraddha is the first stage. Without sraddha, there is no way to obtain love of God. From faith, one seeks saintly association which is called sadhu-sanga. This leads to shelter at the feet of a spiritual teacher. Thereafter, panca-samskara or initiation follows. Panca-samskara gives rise to bhajana-kriya or the personal worship of God.

Bhajana-kriya leads to anartha-nivrtti, which is the stage where one clears up unwanted things from his heart. After anartha-nivrtti one's faith can develop and enters the stage called nistha or mature faith. From nistha, taste or ruci develops. This leads to the stage of asakti or deep attachment. From asakti spiritual emotions called bhava spring forth. This eventually ripens into the stage called love of God, prema. Therefore, everyone should seek shelter at the feet of a spiritual teacher and receive panca-samskara, which is the source of bhajana. Without panca-samskara, bhajana is not spontaneous. Instead, it is performed with difficulty. Some people think that prema or love of God can be obtained without panca-samskara. This is incorrect. The conditioned soul in this world has become hostile to the Divine, and consequently his original spiritual nature has become distorted. As a result he must sanctify himself before that true spiritual nature can develop.And what is the means to attain this pure state? The best way is through samskara or sanctification. Without samskara how can his distorted nature be given up? If we see someone whose nature is not distorted then we think that in a previous birth, through the mercy of a spiritual teacher, he must have received samskara, and on the strength of that samskara he has attained his true spiritual nature wherein prema or love of God has arisen. Otherwise we think that this person has been imperceptibly sanctified by the inconceivable mercy of the Lord Himself. No matter how you look at it, samskara is always there. On the other hand, samskara is not necessary for liberated persons because their nature is not distorted. Distortion of the soul's original spiritual nature is the cause of his bondage in this world. For this reason, without samskara the life of the conditioned soul is impure. Even if a person has attained prema on account of previous samskara, still in his present life he again receives samskara in order to set a proper example for the good of all. . . "

Looks like SBT will stay on the list.

 

[Guest guest]

Shiva and Bhaktisra are saying you can attain Krsna if you get Hare Krsna initiation but don't get brahmana initiation. That is what Srila Prabhupada teaches. It is true.

[Guest guest]

Prabhu Puru Dasa,

 

With respect, Srila Sridhar Maharaj said that Gayatri may not be necessary at all. Best that you accept the direct statements that he made.

 

My name is Nandakumar das and I am an initiated disciple of Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj, the chosen successor of Srila Sridhar Maharaj. I have spoken with my Guru about this issue and Srila Gurudeva\'s instructions are very clear. Gayatri mantra initiation may not be necessary at all.

 

Srila Bhakti Sudhir Goswmami Maharaj was the editor of most of the English language books of Srila Sridhar Maharaj and on his website he has published the Gayatri Mantra commentary of Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharaj. In that commentary Srila Gurudev says

 

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

 

This is not mantram but the maha-mantra. It is especially worth noting. The scriptures describe what we take at the time of second initiation as gayatri mantra. That is mantram — gayatri mantram.

 

At the time of first initiation, what we get from Guru is maha-mantra. We need to consciously differentiate between mantra and mantram. In Chaitanya Charitamrita Krishnadas Kaviraja Goswami clearly states the difference: by Krishna mantra one will get liberation from material existence, but only by Krishna-nam will one enter the land of dedication and achieve service of the lotus feet of Krishna (krsna-mantra haite habe samsara-mocana, krsna-nama haite pabe krsnera carana).

 

With this in mind we can understand what is what. If we want to enter into the transcendental world, first we need the help of the maha-mantra, because the maha-mantra can rescue one from the very lowest level and take one to the very highest level. For gayatri mantra some qualification is necessary; there are rules and regulations, many obstacles etc. Gayatri is mantram, and harinam (the Holy Name of Krishna) is maha-mantra. The harinama maha-mantra is very appropriate for the age of Kali yuga. Every yuga has its own maha-mantra, and that is called, taraka brahma nam (liberating spiritual name).

[Puru_Das]

Also with respect!

No one is disputing the words of Srila Bhakti Raksak Maharaja. "Gayatri may not be necessary." The only difference in understanding is between shiva,theist and whoever bhaktisar is and myself, as to how to apply "may not".

Srila B.V. Naryana Maharaja also said: :

"The holy name is sufficient. The holy name is very powerful and can fulfill all desires. The name will even give vraja-prema. What, then, is the need of taking initiation? The paper has quoted my statement, along with the statement of Prapujya-carana Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja; so I want to reconcile all statements.

It is true that diksa-purascarya (initiation and the purificatory activities performed before initiation) is not needed in all circumstances; but we should know something about the actual meaning of this verse. . ."

The simple truth is that theist, shiva and whoever bhaktisar is don't have any faith in Srila Narayana Maharaja and don't accept his further explanation on this topic. As they wish.

However this has become a tal fruit discussion , like any rtvk debate, with no end and no resolution that is only going to generate unecessary aparadha if it goes on much longer.

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharja has deep appreciation for his guru maharaja's explanations of gayatri. We can read two darshans in full on this topic here:

http://www.dailydarshan.com/arc/2003/030118.html

Srila Bhakti Sundar Govinda Maharja doesn't neglect gayatri mantra. Does he not chant his annick thrice daily, and with regulation? Does he not advocate the same sadhana for his disciples? Did he ever instruct anyone to stop chanting it? Did Gopal Guru Gosvami, Srila Sanatana and Srila Rupa ever abandon this aspect of sadhana? Aren't we supposed to follow the example of our acaryas when it comes to practical application of how to execute bhakti-yoga?

Once I discussed this matter with Srila Bhakti Ballabha Tirtha Gosvami Maharaja. He was very firm on the point that the maha-mantra is all in all, and has everything. He also added, that we "take help from the sampradaya mantras." Seems to me we need all the help we can get in kali yuga if we want to actually get free from the bodily conception of life.

[Puru_Das]

I have read and re read this lecture several times since this thread started and am more convinced of it's efficacy each time I examine it.

The Absolute Necessity of Second Initiation

 

by Tridandisvami Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja

 

Hilo, Hawaii: January 13, 2003

http://bvml.org/SBNM/tanosi.html

There are very clear statements in this lecture concerning the examples of our acaryas.

". . . If there is no necessity to accept diksa-mantra, why did Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura Prabhupada take second initiation from Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji Maharaja, and why did he give diksa initiation to all of his disciples? Parama-pujyapada Srila Sridhara Gosvami Maharaja also took diksa from him. If there is no necessity, why did Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura give diksa initiation, and why did his disciples accept it?

Not only that, Brahma received kama-gayatri and Gopal-mantra from Krsna Himself. Brahma then gave the diksa-mantra to Sri Narada Rsi, and Narada gave it to so many disciples. Narada not only gave harinama to Dhruva Maharaja; he gave him diksa by the mantra: om namo bhagavate vasudevaya. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu took initiation from Sri Isvara Puripada, who first gave Him harinama, and to purify that chanting of nama, he gave Him Gopal-mantra. Gopal-mantra is transcendental and ever-existing, and it gives a relationship with Krsna as Gopijana-vallabha. We should consider all this evidence.

All the acaryas in our guru-parampara have accepted second initiation from a bona fide guru. Can those who say that harinama is sufficient for conditioned souls name any acarya in our guru-parampara who has not taken diksa initiation? Srila Gaurakisora dasa Babaji Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura, Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura, and the Six Gosvamis took second initiation, and Srila Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada took it. Why did they take diksa initiation if it is not essential? You should know the gravity of this truth. Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Sri Nityananda Prabhu, Sri Advaita Acarya, Sri Gadadhara Pandita, Sri Isvara Puri, and Sri Madhavendra Puri have all taken diksa. Why, then, should we not take it? Why is it not essential? If it is not essential, then why did Sri Sanatana Gosvami write about it in his Sri Hari-bhakti-vilasa? Why did Sri Gopal Bhatta Gosvami also write about it? Did he say it was useless? Those who say that diksa is not essential will not be able to answer these questions in hundreds and millions of years.

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu took initiation even though he is the Lord of lords — Radha and Krsna combined — and yet He went to Gaya and took initiation. He vividly explained this fact in a gathering of sannyasis in Kasi when those sannyasis asked Him, "O, You are a very young and qualified sannyasi. Why do you not hear Vedanta? Why do you engage in singing and dancing and rolling on the ground? A sannyasi should not dance and do all these things." Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu replied by telling them of the order of His guru, Sri Isvara Puripada :

 

Mahaprabhu said, "Guru mora murkha dekhi — My Guru Maharaja told me that because I am foolish and unintelligent, I am not qualified to study Vedanta. He said that instead I should always chant Hare Krsna and I should remember this verse:

harer nama harer nama

harer namaiva kevalam

kalau nasty eva nasty eva

nasty eva gatir anyatha

(Caitanya Caritamrta Adi-lila 17.21)

 

 

["In this Age of Kali there is no other means, no other means, no other means for self-realization than chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name, chanting the holy name of Lord Hari."]

But Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu not only took harinama from His gurudeva; He also took second initiation through the Gopal-mantra. In our parampara, in order to purify one's chanting and to and give the chanter a relationship with Krsna who has kindly taken the form of His holy name, the Gopal-mantra is given along with harinama. Up until Caitanya Mahaprabhu's manifested pastimes only the Gopal-mantra was given. Later, Srila Dhyanacandra Gosvami and Srila Gopal-guru Gosvami gave the regulations we now follow. They gave brahma-gayatri, guru-mantra, guru-gayatri, gaura-mantra, gaura-gayatri, krsna-mantra (Gopal-mantra) and finally kama-gayatri. This is the process followed in our sampradaya as begun by Srila Gopal-guru Gosvami, who is a disciple of Vakresvara Pandita, who is an associate of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. . ."

[Guest guest]

"The Absolute Necessity of Second Initiation"

 

or

 

"The holy name of Krsna is so important that even the gayatri mantra may not be necessary."

 

Nobody disputes the fact that you need to approach a Guru and get mantra from him. With this in mind we can understand what is what. If we want to enter into the transcendental world, first we need the help of the maha-mantra, because the maha-mantra can rescue one from the very lowest level and take one to the very highest level.