Higher Lilas

[Guest guest]

Haribol,

 

Dandavats.

It's a pity, that the thread about Higher Lilas was closed. I can understand your reaction very well. I was blind and hypnotized for a long time, too. If you are hypnotized you lose the ability of transparency and non-sectarian spirit. You think, you are on the right path and that you are safe, but unfortunately it is a big illusion.

Why are we warned by great acharyas of mayavadis and sahajiyas? Do you know any mayavadi or sahajiya who will admit that he is one?

Of course they will try their best to disguise and defend themselves. Otherwise the deception would become obvious and then their business would be finished.

Srila Prabhupad and others great acharyas tried his best to give the world proper Krishna consciousness, but we are living in the world of cheating, and that's why it is natural that the "masters of cheating" are the rulers here.

 

Since Sri Krishna is the cause of all causes, He will have His reason why all these things are going on.....

[theist]

I am finding that doing the basic work of immediate necessity; that is, recapturing my own identity, accepting that I am the eternal, subordinate and enjoyed energy of Krsna, that I am not the central enjoyer myself and becoming free from the propensity to exploit others to be such a monumental undertaking that for a period of time I was tempted to put it all aside and join in with the crowd that has prematurely "taken up" talk of subjects far beyond their station of actual realization.

 

I went so far as to buy as the usual books that discuss the most intimate rasa's between the Divine couple. While in Vrndavan I purchased Govinda Lilartam and decided to really dive in. I never got past the pastime of Radha and Krsna awakening in the forest. I closed the book and have not reopened it since. That was 4 years ago.

 

I realized my so-called "diving in" was more like the voyeurism of trying to look through a couples window with a telescope to capture watching their intimacy.

 

Although it would have been an enjoyable fantasy vs. where I am at now struggling with the basics, I realized that one can't barge in or invade any divine lila what to speak of the most intimate. And as long as we are in the mood of thinking we are the central enjoyers we will live in permanet exile from the genuine experience.

 

So what is the point? It only delays us from finding our true place in Reality. Let me gain some real attraction for Krsna and let the force of that attraction carry me into a change of heart and then into Krsna's divine forest if indeed that is where I will be.

 

Pretense never furthers.

[Beggar]

 

Do you know any mayavadi or sahajiya who will admit that he is one?

 

Yes, they will admit. Mayavadis will not use this disparaging term to refer to themselves but will admit that they believe they are the Supreme Lord. The world sahajiya means "natural flow". This is the goal of Gaudiya Vaisnavas, to become aprakrta sahajiya; to enter the natural flow of divine love and pastimes in the aprakrta or transcendental plane. So they will gladly admit that they are sahajiya. Prakrta means the material nature. The Gaudiya Vaisnava acaryas therefore criticize the imitationist or prakrta sahajiyas who imagine that they are situated in the transcendental plane. The prakrta sahajiyas believe that by imitation they will develop the samskars or mental impressions that will take them to the transcendental plane. The mental imaging done the sadhana of the prakrta sahajiyas is considered imagination by the genuine Vaisnavas. In other words it is a sham or phantasmagoria that leads one away from the real path to the raga marga. We also want to develop favorable mental impressions, samskars but by following not imitating. We cannot really follow Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu because He is param brahma, the Supreme Lord, Krsna Himself. We can follow His chief follower Srila Rupa Gosvami, but not imitate his internal bhajana. That internal bhajana can be revealed to us if we follow in his line by following the instructions of the bonafide spiritual master(s). From him we will learn about sambandha jnana or what is what and our eternal position as servants of the Supreme. Then we will learn about the abhideya tattva or the process (sadhana to attain) of pure devotional service. And then we will learn about the prayojana or ultimate goal of Krsna Consciousness. To attain anything one must have a goal, so sadhana without the goal to achieve bhava bhakti and ulitimately prema bhakti is just an empty show and another form of imitation. This point has been made rather strongly on several occaisions by Srila Narayana Maharaja. Srila Sridhar Maharaja would often say, "Ultimately we are our best friend or our worst enemy, uddhared atmanatmanam...(BG 6.5), "the enemy is within" and "no one can cheat us but ourselves, na hi kalyana-krt kascid/durgatim tata gacchati (BG 6.40)." He also said, "What is needed is self-scathing self analysis" and this is what we find so beautifully expressed by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur in Saranagati. We all need to look more carefully in this direction, inwardly and deeply and not go on a witchhunt looking outside ourselves for the deviators and imitationist. Mahaprabhu says, "trnad api sunicena" (Siksastakam 3). We must think that it is we ourselves who are the "wolves in sheeps clothing" and not others otherwise there is only the prospect for us of an ocean of faultfinding.

[theist]

 

This point has been made rather strongly on several occaisions by Srila Narayana Maharaja. Srila Sridhar Maharaja would often say, "Ultimately we are our best friend or our worst enemy, uddhared atmanatmanam...(BG 6.5), "the enemy is within" and "no one can cheat us but ourselves, na hi kalyana-krt kascid/durgatim tata gacchati (BG 6.40)." He also said, "What is needed is self-scathing self analysis" and this is what we find so beautifully expressed by Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur in Saranagati. We all need to look more carefully in this direction, inwardly and deeply and not go on a witchhunt looking outside ourselves for the deviators and imitationist. Mahaprabhu says, "trnad api sunicena" (Siksastakam 3). We must think that it is we ourselves who are the "wolves in sheeps clothing" and not others otherwise there is only the prospect for us of an ocean of faultfinding.[/quote]

Yes, deep honest introspection or what Castanada called "stalking the mind." Our own minds can cloak themselves in saffron robes and staff or even babaji-vesa and fool us into believing we are on levels higher than we are. We may then in turn be so convinced that we convince others that we may come in contact with and in this way be ourselves wolves in sheeps clothing. The wise spotting our self deception by caitya-guru's grace, will want to avoid us out of a sense of self protection.

And if one sheep in the flock recognizes me as a wolf in disquise is it not then his duty to then sound the alarm of warning to the other sheep who remain innocently unaware of the danger? Of course it is.

I ,the wolf, may then protest that I am being unfairly pointed out and judged and even offended by the accusation from the awakened sheep.

A further danger posed by the devotees who misdirect people prematurely towards the higher rasa is that they will become the focal point for the witch-hunting crowd who will want to use them as an excuse to avoid the prescribed "self-scathing self analysis" using the so-called sahajiya's as an excuse.

Krsna said attraction and aversion are felt by embodied beings.

Just like we are not attracted to eating meat but we don't spend all day hating meat or those that eat it. Either way is a symptom of attachment.

"Walking the razor's edge". "Danger at every step." To make matters worse we are blind. We can only rely on the Lord in heart to steer us through this treacherous maze. If we can do that then success is assured.

[Guest guest]

Yes, jumping into the most intimate lilas might be dangerous. But on the other hand, we see hundreds of devotees who leave KC burned out after decades, and the reason is that they never experienced the higher taste they were promised in the beginning. So as always, one should find the middle way between "let us jump into the highest rasas" and "forget high literature, rasa comes from giving donations and selling books" mentality. Both extremes are incorrect. Without rasa KC will become an artificial struggle which inevitably leads to fall down, one cannot pretend to be happy forever. This is why so many people from Iskcon go to Narayan Maharaj or other Gaudiya Math gurus because apart from the necessary basics they may presents higher subjects as well.

[Guest guest]

I remember several years ago as I was reading through the Bhagavatam as I reached the 10th Canto. I had heard all the warnings about Rasa-lila. I read it and thought about what I read. I couldn't see what all the fuss was about.

 

So Krishna dances with the gopis. You'd have to be quite a unbalanced individual to interpret it in any perverse way.

 

Before anyone jumps up and down about the phrase: "So Krishna dances with gopis". I accept that rasa lila is a very high lila.

[Guest guest]

I had the same shocking experience. I heard so many warnings about rasa-lila that I was hesitant to read that part in the Bhagavata. I expected some highly sensual descriptions that may lead one astray into the realm of lust. As you said, it is about Krsna dancing with the gopis who are full of desires for Him. The most intimate expression in the rasa lila is "breast". We can read this word in other parts of the Bhagavata as well, just remember the description of Mohini-murti's attractive body. It may take an extremely lusty guy to feel sexually aroused by reading that...

[Guest guest]

King Pariksit misunderstood the lila and had to be referred back in the text for the proper siddhanta in order to adjust his thinking and feeling properly. The warnings are valid because without the proper understanding a person will misunderstand the lila and think of it as mundane. The other issue that arises when people focus on 'higher lilas and topics' is that there can easily be a mental 'slight of hand' and a person cheats themselves into thinking they are relishing rasa when in fact they aren't even close. The intimate lilas can only be understood in a very advanced stage of sadhana bhakti. That doesn't mean a sadhaka should avoid understanding something about the ideal, it just means that the means for going there is steady and determined practice in nama bhajana.

[Guest guest]

Who is there to tell you that you are actually relishing rasa or not? "Your guru", you may say. But most gurus in the West will tell you "work now samadhi later" anyway, no matter how many decades you have spent selling books. Also, I do not think any genuine guru would tell his disciple that he is now fit to enter into high lilas. I guess it is a question of sobriety, of knowing ourselves. If reading high lilas inspires your sadhana, your devotional life flourishes, you feel happy, enthusiastic and well balanced, then reading them is okay. If they disturb your mind, give rise to doubts or inferior emotions like lust, put them on the shelf for some more years. Just common sense. No need to wait for Rupa Goswami to appear to you in a dream saying, "My dear friend, now you are eligible to read this and this book. When you are ready for the next level, I will come again." This will probably never happen.

[Guest guest]

I can appreciate the comments of theist about trying to dive into the intimate lilas and feeling like a voyeur. If you had associated for some time with Srila Narayana Maharaja you would see that this is not his teachings at all. It is a lot closer to what the others were saying that they were so afraid to read Rasa Lila and then when they read it they were surprised at how harmless it was in comparison to their imaginations. The fact is that Srila Narayana Maharaja does not preach in public assemblies anything that is stronger than what you would read their. However he has published books that provide more of the intimate details. books which some people say Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura did not want published or read. I would like to provide for you a couple of quotes from Srila Saraswati Thakura that should give us all a very different view of his desires and the teachings he imparted to his disciples.

 

Some years ago Sriman Ravindra Swarupa wrote a letter about Srila Bhakti Vedanta Narayana Maharaja. In response to that letter His Holiness Srimad Bhakti Vidagdha Bhagawat Maharaja, who was the personal secretary of Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Maharaja for many years, wrote the following: “At the cornerstone laying of the Baghbazar Gaudiya Math, Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura expressed his desire to publish the authentic commentaries of the higher topics of the Srimad Bhagavatam such as Gopi-Gita and Bhramara-Gita. He said, "Still now we are saying this is not so. Now we must speak this is like that, we should not read the commentaries of Gopi-gita and Bhramara-gita written by the prakrita-sahajiyas but we must also publish authentic editions of the Gopi-gita and the Bhramara-gita of the Srimad- Bhagawatam because we need to perform real krishnanusilanam". This was printed in the weekly Gaudiya. H.H. Narayana Maharaja is now trying to fulfill that desire of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura Prabhupada, so how can you say that Narayana Maharaja has become an instrument of this attack against the mission of Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura? Our Gurudeva Om Visnupada 108 Sri Srimad Bhakti Pramode Puri Goswami Maharaja considers him to be the best weapon to resist the misconceptions of the so-called babajis of Radha-Kunda and it is a proven fact that when he goes to Radha-Kunda he openly challenges them to come forward and have a debate with him if they do not accept the mission of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati as bonafide. Nobody dares to come near him.”

 

To insinuate that Srila Narayana Maharaja is a proponent of prakrta sahajiya is treading on very dangerous ground. This is far more dangeous than the razors edge it is like walking on a bed of razors with no refuge in site. Of course if those who accuse him falsely think that they know better than Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Maharaja about his true character, well than they are only compounding that very dangerous walk on the bed of razors by adding a raging fire underneath.

 

Here is another quote of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura that should put the proper perspective on how and what to preach.

 

In a lecture delivered by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur Prabhupada at Radha-kunda during Vraja-mandal parikrama in 1932, which was printed in The Gaudiya in 1934, His Divine Grace gave these orders:

 

"All these days we have not spoken about lila. Why? Because this is our most confidential asset. This is our only sadhya (perfection). But, one should not make the mistake of thinking that anartha-nivrtti (overcoming impediments such as lust and greed) is the prayojana (goal of life). One thinking like this will never enter into artha-pravrtti (acquiring one’s actual need). For this reason, I will begin speaking about astakaliya-lila.

 

"I know that you are not ready to hear it. But we should know such a transcendental ideal exists within the realm of devotion. This is why anartha-nivrtti is essential. After the realm of anartha-nivrtti is artha-pravrtti, pure conjugal service to Radha and Krsna. This is transcendental reality. If we do not know of this transcendental realm, then all of our efforts may end in nirvisesa-vada (impersonalism). Do not let your day pass in trying for anartha-nivrtti. Artha-pravrtti is also necessary."

 

So this is the real point that the other devotee was making regarding the hard labor of following the basics which is getting rid of the anarthas without knowing the goal. therefore Srila Saraswati Thakura says: "I know that you are not ready to hear it. But we should know such a transcendental ideal exists within the realm of devotion." Even if you are not ready to hear it still you should because if you just work on the anarthas than Srila Saraswati Thakura says: "If we do not know of this transcendental realm, then all of our efforts may end in nirvisesa-vada (impersonalism)." We will be come impersonalists or we will think we are as good as God and so we can enjoy as well and we will fall from the path.

 

According to Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his Madhurya Kadambini, anartha-nivrtti is a stage that actually begins in bhajana-kriya when anarthas start to be eradicated. This process of eradication has five gradations–limited or partial (eka-desa-vartini), pervasive (bahu-desa-vartini), almost complete (prayiki), complete (purna), and absolute (atyantiki).

 

Anartha-nivrtti is not completed when one enters the stage of nistha. This is a common misconception that is completely wrong. There are various forms of anartha-nivrtti that extend even past the stage of rati or bhava into prema.

 

So at which stage of removing the anarthas should we hear about Sri Sri Radha Krishna's pastimes with the Gopis? Srila Prabhupada says at the earliest stage:"Another secret of success is that when one is very much sexually disturbed, he should think of Krsna’s pastimes with the gopis, and he will forget his sex urge"

 

But how and from whom should we hear Srila Prabhupada tells us that in the Krishna Book: "The conditioned soul should hear the rasa-lila dance from an authorized spiritual master and be trained by him so that he can understand the whole situation; thus one can be elevated to the highest standard of spiritual life; otherwise one will be implicated. Material lust is a kind of heart disease, and to cure the material heart disease of the conditioned soul, it is recommended that one should hear, but not from the impersonalist rascals. If one hears from the right sources with right understanding, then his situation will be different. One must hear from disciplic succession. Anu means following, and anu means always. So one must always follow the disciplic succession and not hear from any stray professional reciter, Mayavadi or ordinary man. Anusrnuyat means that one must hear from an authorized person who is in the disciplic succession and is always engaged in Krsna consciousness."

 

According to Srila Bhakti Pramode Puri Maharaja, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja is such and authorised spiritual master in the disciplic succession and one should hear from him about the topics of Sri Sri Radha Krishnas pastimes in the rasa dance. Those who have faithfully done so have made great advancement in the practice of devotional service.

 

As far as imagining the pastimes before one is qualified Srila Prabhupada has this to say:

"The Hare Krsna mantra chanting means keeping Krsna always within your heart. This is not... It is not expensive at all. You haven’t got to make a very exalted throne for Krsna. You can imagine that ‘In my heart I have placed now a very diamond throne, and Krsna is sitting.’ That is accepted. It is... Actually it becomes. Even within the mind you think that ‘I have kept one diamond throne, very costly throne, because Krsna is coming. He will sit down here,’ that is not false. That is a fact. So you create such situation within your heart. ‘Now Krsna has seated. Let me wash His feet with the Ganges water, Yamuna water. Now I change His dress to a first-class costly garments. Then I decorate with ornaments. Then I give Him for eating.’ You can simply think of this. This is meditation. Svantah-sthena gadabhrta. It is so nice thing. Anywhere you can sit down and think that Krsna is sitting in your heart and you are receiving in so nice way. They are not false. They are also fact. It is so easy.

 

Under the guidance of Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja many devotees have developed the ability to focus more on the pastimes of Sri Sri Radha and Krishna in their minds and hearts instead of just trying to avoid sense gratification. The results for those who have taken it seriously is that they automatically follow the regulative principles and give up sense gratification and engage in more of the nine procesess of devotional service. If this is bad thing than please give me more and more of it because it is making my spiritual life very blissful indeed. Srila Prabhupada Ki Jaya! Srila Narayana Maharaja Ki Jaya!

[theist]

 

Yes, jumping into the most intimate lilas might be dangerous. But on the other hand, we see hundreds of devotees who leave KC burned out after decades, and the reason is that they never experienced the higher taste they were promised in the beginning.

Yes people leave but this has nothing to do with not delving into the most intimate aspects of the Lords pastimes. It has everything to do with not wanting to accept that Krsna is the central enjoyer,in other words not wanting to love Krsna. Or there may be some issue with the organization.

Yes everyone wants the taste of higher and spiritual pleasure but rare is the soul who is willing to actually undergo the necessary change of heart.

 

So as always, one should find the middle way between "let us jump into the highest rasas" and "forget high literature, rasa comes from giving donations and selling books" mentality.Both extremes are incorrect. Without rasa KC will become an artificial struggle which inevitably leads to fall down, one cannot pretend to be happy forever.

I agree. You can sell books and experience a change of heart as you do so. You can also sell books as a type of sukriti gathering which will show up later without experincing a change of heart. The deferred bhakti approach, "Next birth I will give up my attachment to material.life." Books can be sold while harboring a desire to go to heaven to swim in celestial pools filled with beautiful maidens in direct imitation of Krsna. But who wants to love Krsna? Dispite our pretense I would guess practically no one except the rare soul.

If one develops real love for Krsna even at the most preliminary of levels he will experience transcendental happiness that will sustain him. Even genuine santa-rasa will sustain one in Krsna Consciousness. What you call the middle way I see as a genuine appreciation for the omipresence of the Lord and/or a desire to actively serve Him. Not thinking one can jump from loving matter to the secret places of Vrndavan forest by selling books.

 

This is why so many people from Iskcon go to Narayan Maharaj or other Gaudiya Math gurus because apart from the necessary basics they may presents higher subjects as well.

I know you are not trying to be offensive to Prabhupada's books but IMO you are. You think by reading some " higher lilas" you have transcended the need to REALIZE BG, SB, and Cc? I don't think so.

This is the head only approach IMO. Thinking "Oh there is something higher so let me read about that now so I can KNOW it." But that is not how you "KNOW" Krsna lila. That is still on the mental plane and not even spiritual. The "higher rasa" we think we are relishing by this approach is really just our own imagination, our own minds reflected image of what we are reading with "ourselves" artificaly injected into the drama.

First we must be willing to love Krsna and allow Krsna to attract you in deeper and deeper. First things first.

[theist]

I see Audarya-lila has already made the point.

 

The other issue that arises when people focus on 'higher lilas and topics' is that there can easily be a mental 'slight of hand' and a person cheats themselves into thinking they are relishing rasa when in fact they aren't even close.

[theist]

Post # 10 by guest I thought was very balanced and brought out some very important points that I found personally very pertinent. I too often forget that Krsna Consciousness practice has a positive approach beyond simply getting error free. hank you for pointing that out. While it has it's place simply getting beyond illusion can't be our sole focus. If it is then are we not impersonalists? I thank you w/folded palms for sharing that insight. It is very important and I can see where this imbalance in my life has been a major reason for my treading water or very slow progress in spiritual life. Now if Krsna will be kind to help me remeber it.

 

I can appreciate the comments of theist about trying to dive into the intimate lilas and feeling like a voyeur. If you had associated for some time with Srila Narayana Maharaja you would see that this is not his teachings at all. It is a lot closer to what the others were saying that they were so afraid to read Rasa Lila and then when they read it they were surprised at how harmless it was in comparison to their imaginations. The fact is that Srila Narayana Maharaja does not preach in public assemblies anything that is stronger than what you would read their. However he has published books that provide more of the intimate details.

Krsna Book was one of the first blessings His Divine Grace bestowed upon the west. It is not a forbidden subject. I don't hear anyone saying it is. For me I see it as one of being cautious. I also feel that everything I need to consider in this lifetime on the subject of Radha/Krsna rasa is contained in Krsna book by and large. Now please know THAT I SPEAK ONLY FOR MYSELF on this. I don't doubt that others may be in different circumstances in fact I sincerely hope so or we are all in trouble .

That book distributer should not be considered doing lower service compared to someone chanting 128 rounds in seclusion. I can easily envision the simplest brahmacari who doesn't go on the streets or live in seclusion dancing with Krsna in his heart while he cleans the latrine back at the temple and being more intimately connected with Krsna then either the great speaker or secluded bhakta. I can't say. Someone above mentioned the need to know where we are in our realizations as individuals.

I am trying to understand this subject apart from any matha considerations. I am not calling anyone a sahajiya let alone highly elevated souls. I do know that sahjiyas (loosely termed as those that take it cheaply) can and do encircle every teacher and that may not be the fault of the teacher. He may foster it or he may talk strongly against it to an audience that doesn't hear it right and takes it cheaply. This can happen on any level in any matha and to anyone.

If we take sahajiya to mean one "who takes it cheaply" then I am sure most of us can find that mentality within ourselves to some degree.