Hindu scriptures - meat allowed or conversion technique

[sunindia22]

Can any one refute this point by point please ! Or can someone get some real sadhu to respond to this point by point

 

It is being used in india by people affilitaied to Zakir Naik to convert Hindus.

{ anti-hindu propoganda deleted }

[Guest guest]

The tone of the above article suggests to me that our esteemed guest is either a Christian or a Muslim who had an ax to grind.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

Please see this following thread, as the statements of Manu Samhita were already dealt with:

 

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/forums/hinduism/43014-eating-meat.html

 

The other statements about eating beef have been dealt with in the thread "Did Rama eat meat?". If you search you should be able to find it (there are probably multiple threads with that title).

 

In summary these are all misrepresentations by people of other religions trying to convert Hindus.

 

Just look at their sanskrit quote:

 

Bramhnaanam irjkottnshcha hhojyamas netyasha. Pan chgawam mansat spukwaidhrtl sanskritai: chavatshchoshot

 

When was the last time you saw sanskrit with those words and letters? These people aren't even from India and have never read any sanskrit literature in their life, so don't waste your time on it.

[sunindia22]

Dear jndas Prabhuji

I agree these people have no basis, but you know what is happenning ?

They are presenting these ideas in open forums with huge audiances in india and hindus with little or no knowledge are converting due to this.

They are using our scriptures including Gita to convert people.

Here is the public proof:-

http://www.thetruecall.com/home/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=167

http://www.thetruecall.com/home/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=185

http://www.thetruecall.com/downloads/Transcript/Part%201-ZakirNaik.pdf

http://www.thetruecall.com/downloads/Transcript/Part2-RaviShankar.PDF

http://www.thetruecall.com/downloads/Transcript/Responses.PDF

http://www.thetruecall.com/downloads/Transcript/QnA.PDF

What i was thinking is could we have a rebuttal website or a part of some website, exposing these people for what they are ?

If sadhus or disciples of sashus like you do not help peacefully defend

dharma ? who will ?

Please think about it. All that i am saying is we have a rebuttal website that reponds to all this, in one place on the internet that Hindus could use to find out the truth.

Sunindia22

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

After seeing the websites its clear, it's the same Islamic people trying to misrepresent Hinduism. Usually when you see a website named "The True Call - Islam", that in itself should tell you that you don't need to defend your Hindu beliefs there. And when they claim that all the Hindu Swamijis were defeated in debate, only a fool will believe them, and only those same fools will try to learn Hinduism from them.

 

If our Hindus have not studied their own scriptures, and instead need to be taught by outsiders, then who is to blame? It is pointless trying to debate these complete misrepresentations of Hinduism. If a madman accuses you of being a thief, will you waste your time trying to establish to everyone that you aren't a thief?

 

If there were a tiny shred of truth to anything they say, then you could debate and defend your beliefs. But when there isn't even the smallest truth to anything they say, and when all the verses they cite don't exist, and when the language they claim is sanskrit isn't sanskrit, then the only thing left for you to do is stop wasting your time and read the Gita.

[sunindia22]

Dear JNDas Prabhuji,

Thank you for your advice and also i have searched the threads here and there is a wealth of information available.

I will see if i can write up a paper on this and then use it at some time some place.

Especially your thread is very enlightening

http://www.audarya-fellowship.com/forums/hinduism/43014-eating-meat-2.html?highlight=Did+Rama+eat+meat

My heart still yearns for a place on the internet where these mischief mongers are exposed and where Hindus could learn more about their own dharma, at least the basics.

Thank you so much.

Sunindia 22

[kcp1982]

Does God Want Man to Eat Meat?

 

When discussing the topic of killing (meat eating) with Christians and Muslims. They ultimately justify killing animals for food by pointing to their scriptures. Thus the main reason why man kills for a living (meat eating) is religion. The Bible and Koran both state that animals are food. They both claim that their scripture is the word of God and thus there is absolutely nothing wrong in killing innocent animals.

This raises the question would God want man to eat meat?

 

This question can be answered by looking at the health, economic, and violence issues.

1. Health

 

Is meat good for us?

 

It’s a scientific fact that vegetarians are healthier than meat eaters. Scientific studies show that vegetarians have a much lower risk of suffering from diseases like cancer, heart disease, high blood pressure and other health disorders compared to meat eaters.

Scientific Studies Support a Vegetarian Diet

 

A major study reported in the British Medical Journal found that, of 5000 meat-eaters and 6000 non-meat eaters, vegetarians had 40% less risk of cancer and 30% less risk of heart disease than the meat-eaters and were 20% less likely to die of any cause (Oxford Vegetarian Study).

 

A US study of 50,000 vegetarians showed a very low rate of cancer (Seventh Day Adventist Study, Massachusetts). It has been estimated that by following a low-fat vegetarian diet, the risk of food poisoning is decreased by 80%.

 

A balanced vegetarian diet is better for humans than one that includes meat (from TIME magazine, July 2002).

 

 

An 11-year study of 1,900 German vegetarians has found mortality from cardiovascular disease to be 61% lower in male vegetarians and 44% lower in female vegetarians than the general population.

Hypertension can contribute to heart disease, strokes, and kidney failure. A number of studies have shown vegetarians to have lower blood pressure than meat eaters (Sacks 1974, Armstrong 1977).

The British Medical Association (1986) stated that vegetarians have lower rates of obesity than meat eaters.

Vegetarians have lower rates of colon cancer than meat eaters (Phillips 1980).

There is overwhelming scientific evidence to prove that a vegetarian diet is much more healthier than a meat based diet. Eating meat can seriously damage your health.

What about Protein?

 

Most people are brainwashed into thinking that meat is the only source of protein. The simple fact is that there is plenty of protein in a vegetarian diet too.

 

Would God want man to eat food that will increase the chances of suffering from major diseases, reduce the quality of life, and reduce the life span?

Absolutely not.

Would you want your children to eat food that is not good for them? No?

Similarly God doesn’t want his children, you and me, to eat food that is bad for our health.

2. Economic

 

Does it make economic sense to raise animals for food?

 

It takes at least 17 kg of corn, beans, grains etc., many gallons of water, and some time to produce just 1 kg of beef. This is like investing $17 in a bank term deposit and withdrawing $1 at maturity.

The 17 kg of corn, beans, and grains would feed at least 20 people while the 1 kg of beef would feed at most 2 people.

Does it makes any sense to feed an animal 17 kg of vegetation, many gallons of water, provide shelter, allow some time, and then cut it’s throat and kill it to produce 1 kg of meat?

Would it be better just to take the 17 kg of vegetation and feed on it directly rather than having it go through an animal and then feeding on the animal a much reduced quantity of food?

The reason why somewhere in the World a child dies of starvation every two seconds is because of slaughterhouse mentality as described above. If the millions of acres of land, which is used to grow food for animals, were used to grow food for humans directly then there would be at least 10 times more food than currently. Thus there would be no poverty in the World.

About 70% of the crops grown in the US are fed to animals and not to humans. The mentality is that convert 17 kg of vegetarian food into 1 kg of meat so that at most 2 people can eat instead of at least 20. Also there is the thrill of killing the animals, which is very much liked by the followers of the non-Vedic religions.

If everyone in the world became a vegetarian, there would be no such thing as poverty. But unfortunately the majority of the humans simply can’t give up the thrill of killing innocent animals and so the children will have to continue dying due to starvation at the rate of 2 every seconds.

 

 

Would God want man to turn 17 kg of vegetarian food into1 kg of non-vegetarian food (meat).

Absolutely not.

3. Violence

Is violence related to meat eating?

 

What do all the terrorists have in common?

What do all the violent criminals have in common?

What do all the murderers have in common?

The simple answer is that they are all killers of animals (meat eaters).

Have you heard of vegetarian terrorists?

Have you heard of vegetarian criminals?

Have you heard of vegetarian murderers?

The over whelming majority of the violent people in the World are meat eaters and not vegetarians.

How does meat eating make one violent?

 

By killing for a living (meat eating), the human mind develops a taste for killing, which leads to a mentality of violence. The mentality of killing animals spreads to killing humans too. People who kill animals are much more likely to kill people too. This is a fact as the terrorists, and the most violent criminals are animal killers (meat eaters).

The vegetarians don’t kill for a living (no meat) and so their mind develops a taste for non-violence, thus a mentality of non-violence. The mentality of a vegetarian is that killing is totally wrong, thus the killing or even injuring of humans is totally unthinkable.

The US government spends billions of dollars each year on combating terrorism. They think by going after those with guns and bombs will solve the problem. They totally ignore the root cause of violence. Which is human mentality of violence, caused by killing for a living (meat eating).

The simple formula for stopping terrorism and violence in the world is:

No Meat= No killing = No mentality of violence = No terrorism/No violence

What about killing the plants?

 

There is a big difference between cutting grass and cutting the necks of chickens. Killing plants and animals is not the same.

Would God want man to kill for a living (meat eating) so that they can develop a mentality of violence and become killers of humans too?

Absolutely not.

Why is the Cow Sacred to the Hindus?

 

The human mother drinks cows milk, and from it produces her milk, which we humans drink at birth. Then at 3 months we start drinking cows milk in a bottle then in cups. We also eat delicious foods made from cows’ milk. Foods like ice cream, yogurt, cheese, and curd. From our birth to our death we rely on cows milk. Thus the cow is considered a mother as she provides us with nourishing food for life. How can you kill such a mother?

Every time you eat pizza, ice cream, yogurt, and other foods made from cow’s milk, you should be very great full to the cow.

How can you kill a mother that provides nourishing food to you for life?

The cow is also the favorite animal of God, Lord Krishna. Why? Since the cow provides nourshing food to Lord Krishna’s children, you and me. Lord Krishna is very much greateful to her. Would you be greateful to someone who feeds your children, or would you order them to be killed and eaten?

Lord Caitanya, who was an incarnation of Lord Krishna states in the Caitanya Caritamrta, Adi-lila chapter 17, verses.165-167.

“Cow-killers are condemned to rot in hellish life for as many thousands of years as there are hairs on the body of the cow.”

[gHari]

To appease those attached to the taste of blood, the Vedas have offered concessions, injunctions for animal sacrifice. Other religions even offer injunctions for thievery, murder, rape, and slavery. No sane man will engage in such abominable actions, but He is the God of the insane too.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

One problem with health arguments, economic arguments, environmental arguments, etc., is that if tomorrow they invent the most economic, healthy and environmentally friendly meat in the world we will suddenly stop respecting these things as valid reasons. In other words we use them only because they agree with us, and if for some reason they didn't agree with us we would stop citing them.

 

Take for example slavery, the real reason it needed to be stoped was because it was evil, not because it wasn't economic or environmentally friendly. The same is the case with genocide, it needs to be stopped because it is evil. How would it sound if we said the extermination of jews should have been decided based on economic, environmental and health reasons of the killers?

[Guest guest]

Jndas....

 

Your logic is bizzare.

 

 

One problem with health arguments, economic arguments, environmental arguments, etc., is that if tomorrow they invent the most economic, healthy and environmentally friendly meat in the world we will suddenly stop respecting these things as valid reasons. In other words we use them only because they agree with us, and if for some reason they didn't agree with us we would stop citing them.

Meat is not invented. It comes from killing. Killing will never be enviromentally friendly, or healthy or economical.

 

Let's deal with the acidic attack by low class Muslims who are trying to justify animal killing to satisfy their bellies. That's the real and only issue here.

 

 

These people will not listen to reasoned debate or discussion since they have already closed their minds, and hearts to human compassion.

 

Their version of God frightens me.

 

Please get rid of this garbage since I've seen less controversial material being removed from here.

[Avinash]

 

Meat is not invented. It comes from killing. Killing will never be enviromentally friendly, or healthy or economical.

I have two questions here:-

1. How can we be so sure that killing cannot be environment friendly, healthy or ecenomical? There may be some animals who are polluting the environment and killing them may improve the environment. Meat is known to contain various kinds of proteins and vitamins which are good for health. There are many people in the world who are vegetarian and quite healthy. Now, let us come to economical. What if, for some reason, meat price is reduced?

A more important question:-

1. Let us say it is found that there are certain meat products which are environment friendly, healthy and economical. Will you recommend eating that?

Please note. In this post I am not recommending eating meat. All I am saying is that the reasons you have cited should not be the real reasons. The real reason is that meat products involve killing of conscious beings, which is sinful. I am sure that you also consider eating meat as bad for the same reason.

[imranhasan]

Brother Avinash, your answers are always precise and it seems that you always try to present the real and basic reasons for the issue only. I really enjoy reading your posts.

 

All I am saying is that the reasons you have cited should not be the real reasons. The real reason is that meat products involve killing of conscious beings, which is sinful. I am sure that you also consider eating meat as bad for the same reason.

Before anything else, I must confess that I do eat meat.

It is true that meat products involve killing a 'conscious' beings. But then, are plants not considered to be conscious beings? In one the earlier posts, a brother wrote:

 

There is a big difference between cutting grass and cutting the necks of chickens. Killing plants and animals is not the same.

The big difference apparently is the scene that is generated. Just because blood spills out of an animal, does not mean that we can cut down grass for our pleasures, especially if we believe that grass is just another form of life, as a goat.

[Avinash]

 

Before anything else, I must confess that I do eat meat.

It is true that meat products involve killing a 'conscious' beings. But then, are plants not considered to be conscious beings?

I first want to point out that I talked about killing of conscious beings in the previous post not because I think this should be considered as the main reason for avoiding meat. Of course, I personally do find this as the main reason. But that is not why I made the above post. I made that post because I felt that many people in this forum dislike meat eating for this reason. But sometimes they give other reasons e.g. health issues. If somebody really believes that meat should be avoided for health reasons and he thinks non-veg is bad for health, then I can understand if he does not eat meat. Let us assume that somehow the same person is convinced that some type of meat is good for his health. Now, he should not have any problem in eating that meat. But suppose now he starts giving some other reason (i.e. other than health) for not eating meat. What does it mean? This means that health was not the prime reason in the first place even though he did mention that as reason. My point was simply this. If somebody likes or dislikes certain thing, then he should give his own actual reasons for his preferences.

But anyway, in your post, you talked about plants being conscious. There has already been discussion on this in some other threads. I will just find those out and post the links. In the mean time if somebody else finds the threads, then I will appreciate if he posts the relevant links.

[imranhasan]

 

But anyway, in your post, you talked about plants being conscious. There has already been discussion on this in some other threads.

My dear brother, conscious or not, plants are a living thing, all the same. Why should killing them not be seen with as much disdain as killing any other living thing.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

Meat is not invented. It comes from killing. Killing will never be enviromentally friendly, or healthy or economical.

 

You seem to have missed the point, which Avinash has nicely clarified. In the future if science finds a way to produce meat economically, and it proves to be good for your health, and it some how helps the environment, then will you suddenly start eating meat? No. The answer is simple, none of these "reasons for not eating meat" were real, they were just useful catch phrases. The real reason why we who follow the Vedic teachings don't eat meat is because of the violence and pain inflicted on other living entities.

 

If someones really accepts the health, economic, and environmental arguements, then he must support the eating of meat as soon as it proves to be healthy, economical and environmentally favourable. That is something against the Vedic teachings, therefore I will not promote diet based on these things.

 

People could eventually easily prove meat to be economical. For example, if cows were left to graze wild grass from land not fit for growing crops.

Since the land could not support crops for humans, it would be more economical to have cows graze the land and then eat their meat. So would anyone who argues in favor of economic reasons for being vegetarian now change their stance and support eating meat? If not, then these arguments were false, and only offered because they supported one's stance. As soon as the same logic doesn't support one's position it is abandoned. Just for information, beef in India costs less per kilo than rice, from what I have heard it is perhaps 15 rs. a kilo (compared to 20 rs. for good quality rice). This low price is obviously due to lack of demand, as other meats cost much more.

 

My point is not that we should eat meat because it could be economical. If that's what you understood by reading this, then there is a comprehension problem. My real point is that such arguments are shallow and ignore the real reason why we should not eat meat, and that is because it causes pain and suffering to other living entities.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

My dear brother, conscious or not, plants are a living thing, all the same. Why should killing them not be seen with as much disdain as killing any other living thing.

Here is some information on this:

Isn't the killing of plants also violence?

http://www.bvashram.org/articles/24/...so-violence%3F

 

and another relevant topic here:

 

Sanctified Food; The Process of Sadhana

http://www.bvashram.org/articles/56/...ess-of-Sadhana

 

In summary (from the Hindu perspective):

 

1) God has ordained a specific diet for each type of living entity.

2) Humans must first offer everything to God, otherwise their eating is sinful.

3) God has specified which types of offerings he will accept (which do not include meat).

 

Other aspects of this are that pain is experienced in proportion to the developed consciousness of the living entity. Humans and animals have a very developed consciousness and therefore experience more pain, whereas plants have a less developed consciousness and experience less pain. Thus it is more sinful to kill an animal than a plant as it will cause more pain to the animal. Both are still sinful, but plants (fruits, vegetables, etc.) may be offered to God and in this way the sinful reactions can be mitigated.

[Guest guest]

 

One problem with health arguments, economic arguments, environmental arguments, etc., is that if tomorrow they invent the most economic, healthy and environmentally friendly meat in the world we will suddenly stop respecting these things as valid reasons. In other words we use them only because they agree with us, and if for some reason they didn't agree with us we would stop citing them.

They have already cloned pigs (one of the few animals most people think are unhealthy for you to eat) so that now they can tell people it is healthy for them.

--

Amitabh Avasthi

for National Geographic News

March 27, 2006

from nationalgeographic.com:

 

"Pigs have been genetically modified to make their meat as healthy as seafood, researchers report.

The premise of the work, published yesterday in the online journal Nature Biotechnology, is based on cloning pigs to genetically express higher levels of omega-3 fatty acids, a type of natural oil that is thought to fight heart disease and various immune disorders. The oils are typically found in fish.

 

"Omega-3 fatty acids are crucial to human health," said Jing Kang, associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School in Cambridge, Massachusetts."

 

and from Monday, March 27, 2006

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, By Anita Srikameswaran,

 

"Pigs have been genetically modified to make their meat as healthy as seafood, researchers report.

The premise of the work, published yesterday in the online journal Nature Biotechnology, is based on cloning pigs to genetically express higher levels of omega-3 fatty acids, a type of natural oil that is thought to fight heart disease and various immune disorders. The oils are typically found in fish.

"Omega-3 fatty acids are crucial to human health," said Jing Kang, associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Someday you could eat bacon and ham instead of fish and nuts to get heart-healthy omega-3 fatty acids into your diet."

 

----

So altho it is correct that eating meat is not healthy for you, there could come a day when it can not be used a reason why people should be vegitarian.

[Yegan]

 

My dear brother, conscious or not, plants are a living thing, all the same. Why should killing them not be seen with as much disdain as killing any other living thing.

Dear imranhasan,

You are perfectly right. Whether it be plants or animals, they both have something in common and that is conciousness. Being concious, means both animals and plants have soul and as such eating animals OR PLANTS is considered sinful.

 

Now, the level of conciousness in plant is not the same as in animals or human beings. Plants having less conciousness suffer less pain (My appology, I cannot provide you with any scriptures to support what I am saying. It happens that I have learnt these during lectures.).

 

Now because we cannot live without eating (unless we are some of the sages living on the himalayas), we therefore consume plants which have less developed conciousness and hence suffer less when being killed.

 

However the main reason why we choose a vegatarian diet is because, it has been clearly stated in the Gita as the recommended diet . Eating meat is clearly considered in the ignorance mode in the Gita. Whereas eating plants is considered to be in the mode of goodness.

 

Now one thing should be noted whether one is in the ignorance mode or in the mode of goodness, ultimately both are binding us to the material world. It is same like persons in the ignorance mode are chained to this material world by iron chain, whereas people in the goodness mode is chained by a golden chain. Ultimately whether it be golden chain or iron chain both are restricting us to the material world.

So eating plants, is ok coz you are in the goodness mode but still binded to this material world (you are still killing and hence liable to karma. But let us say that the bad karma inquired due to eating plants is not as bad as when eating animals whereby lots of suffering and pains are involved due to the higher conciousness of the animals)

 

Above the 3 modes of nature,(i.e ignorance, passion and goodness) is the trancendental platform. In this platform, one is karma free. Your activities does not acquire any karma. Now to answer your question, eating plant is killing for sure but you do not acquire any sins by eating it PROVIDED, the plants are being offered to the Lord first.

In the Gita it is mentioned that the Lord would take all the sins that you could have acquired in killing the plants if the food is first offered to him. In the same way any "prescribe activities" rendered to the Lord is karma free.

 

In conclusion: Yes eating plants is bad because it involves killing. And as such you have to account for that karma. However the bad karma acquired by killing animals is even worse due to greater suffering and pain involved.

However if the same plants are offered to the Lord first then they become purified, clean our conciousness and are karma free (You can say that this is the mercy of GOD showed upon us. Just another reason to take away our sins)

 

 

 

 

[imranhasan]

Thank you, brother Yegan. Can you please explain what you mean by 'consciousness'?

[Yegan]

 

Thank you, brother Yegan. Can you please explain what you mean by 'consciousness'?

My dear brother imranhasan,

From the lectures that I have been exposed of, my understanding of consciousness is as follows:

 

1. Consciousness is the degree of one's spiritual advancement. Usually in the lectures when we refer to conciousness we means the stage someone is in the process of spiritual quest.

 

So, a Guru/Teacher therefore has a higher conciousness than a student. So there is different conciousness level within human beings. In general, human beings have much higher consciousness level, followed by the animal and plant kingdom respectively.

 

2.Conciousness can also relate to emotional/compassion level.

For example if a close relative of yours died, you will feel pain/sadness. It can really hurt for years if not life time. But in the animal kingdom, dying does not cause pain to the family member, at least not as deep as in human beings.

 

If you look closely No.2 is actually embedded in No.1 because a person in advanced spiritual quest sees GOD in every individual and atoms, hence he always feels compassionate to others.

 

3. Consciousness is also the degree of awareness of the outside environment.

 

Coming back to the example above, if a relatives of yours died, you would feel sad because you are aware/concious that you would not see him/her anymore. This awareness of death for example is not pronounced in animals and is lacking in plants.

Now low level conscious(low level of emotions and awareness) beings usually also exhibits low level of pain/suffering. You can make a wild deduction by observing nature. Try to kill an animal for example, see how some of them actually WEEP and cry out of horrendous pain. Try to cut down a tree and observe the difference.

 

That is why, I said in my previous post that plants having less consciousness level do not suffer as much pain as animals and is one of the subsidiary reason why it is recommended to eat plant rather than animals. However the MAIN reason being it is mentioned black on white in the Gita.

 

 

[imranhasan]

Thank you my brother Yegan, for your elaborate response.

1- According to what I understand from your elaboration, 'consciousness' seems to refer to something internal to a person. Would you think that it also has any apparent signs from which we can say that one person is more advanced in consciousness than another?

2- You write:

 

This awareness of death for example is not pronounced in animals and is lacking in plants.

How can we say that this awareness is lacking in plants? If we cannot notice the plants expressing their glee or sorrow, it does not necessarily mean that the plants do not have that awareness. If we can't hear the tree's scream, does it necessitate that the tree does not feel the same, if not more, pain as any animal or even a human being would?

Thank you.

[protectacow]

My brother recently was telling me that he does not think it is right to kill plants for food. I asked him when was the last time that he killed a Apple Tree when he ate an apple? Or when was the time that he killed a Wheat,Oat or Rye plant when he ate some grains. (all grains are harvested after the plant died and dryed up) Or a Potatoe, they too die before we harvest the tuber underground. Did you ever wonder why it is called "amber waves of grain"? When the grain is growing and alive it is green, it is not untill it dries up that it is harvested. I am a farmer myself and have never killed a plant to eat it.

 

Prabhupada: we are speaking go-raksya. If you want to eat some meat, at least don't kill cow. You can kill other animals . Cow has got special importance because it supplies milk, and milk is very essential food that is... From the childhood, a child lives on milk, and there are many saintly persons, they also live by drinking milk. Milk is very important item in the human society, and it supplies all vitamins. Even if you say that "Meat-eating is essential for me," you can eat other animals, but don't kill cows. That is our proposal. Give protection to the cows. Krsna mentioned specifically, go-raksya. He does not say that you don't kill, but you give protection to the cows. And if you want to eat meat, you can kill other animals. On the whole, pasu-himsa, any animal killing, is not good for spiritual life. And so far vegetable is concerned, everyone has to eat something. So if you can eat vegetables, that does not mean because somebody is killing vegetables, he should kill his own father and mother on that plea. So cow is mother because we are drinking her milk. So you cannot put any argument in favor of killing mother.

[Yegan]

 

Thank you my brother Yegan, for your elaborate response.

1- According to what I understand from your elaboration, 'consciousness' seems to refer to something internal to a person. Would you think that it also has any apparent signs from which we can say that one person is more advanced in consciousness than another?

Dear bro,

I PRESUME there is scarely any external sign which would point that a person has such and such level of conciousness.

For example, if the Gurus/Swamis were to be dressed "normally", they would just look like anyone else( at least to me).

 

Please take note, that I am only assuming here. I have never been exposed to lectures or come across scriptures which talk specifically about the features of an advanced conciousness person. Therefore I cannot elaborate more on this point.

 

In fact, I am not even suppose to be discussing about spiritual issues but only to tell exactly what these Gurus have said.

 

 

2- You write:

 

How can we say that this awareness is lacking in plants? If we cannot notice the plants expressing their glee or sorrow, it does not necessarily mean that the plants do not have that awareness. If we can't hear the tree's scream, does it necessitate that the tree does not feel the same, if not more, pain as any animal or even a human being would?

Thank you.

I was expecting that this question will pop up sooner along the line and I 100% agree with your above statement.

 

Scientists now might say that plants do not have eloborate nervous system like animals or human beings, and as such they are much less sensitive or concious about pain. May be later on, there might be a machine which can actually detect pain, and the same scientists would come and say that ,oh plants do suffer a lot of pain same as animals and human beings if not more.

Now, we know that science is a constantly changing knowledge. Yesterday the world was flat and everyone agrees. Today if you say the world is flat people would tell you go mental hospital. Who knows may be tomorrow new discoveries might say the world is square (Serious we never know).

The ever expanding universe is largely accepted by the scientifical community but recently some physicts say may be a cyclic universe could make more sense.

In Sir isaac newton era, people thought that time was absolute. Nowadays scientists say time is relative depending on which platform one is situated. And the list goes on and on.

 

My point is science can not be taken as plain truth. Hence we must resort to something which was yesterday same, same today and would be same in the futur. And that is scriptures.

 

In the scriptures, it is said that there are inumerable planets inhabitants by other creatures. This is plain truth(at least to me). So I believe in Aliens even though scientifically there is no concrete proof that aliens do exist.

The scriptures tend to point at a cyclic universe. So I believe in a cyclic universe even though the community at large favours the ever expanding universe.

The scriptures shows that time is relative. (Fortunately this one everyone agrees).

The scriptures says cow dung is pure. This is truth for me.

 

Similarly scriptures (or should I say words from advanced conciousness beings) say that plant suffers less pain than animals. This is absolute truth for anyone who accept the scriptures as the ultimate source of knowledge.

If one can show today that plant for instance suffers much more than human beings, ok thats fine but we know that tommorow the same person might come with a completely different version.But to people who believes in scriptures plant suffers less pain than animals, this is immutable truth.

 

Therefore someone eating plants which have a less pain sensation (immutable truth) will acquire less bad karma than when he eats animals. Now there is one thing that I want to stress again. Killing is killing. Whether be it plants or animals or fellow human beings, it is still killing independant of level of pain or sensitivity and as such is a sin (ahimsa{principal of non injury} is being broken).

That is why as I have stated last time, that the vegetarian food should first be offered to the Lord before one consume it. If not one would only be eating sins coming from killing of a living being.

 

Now for the sake of argument whether or not plants do suffer same if not more than animals or human beings does not matter since GOD said he will take unto him our sins (for killing a living being) if ONLY VEGETARIAN food are offered to him first.

 

PS. Dear bro you might have noticed that I do at times do bit of repetition,my apologies. This is beyond my control.

 

Haribol

 

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

How can we say that this awareness is lacking in plants?

Most of what we believe is accepted based on the instructions of the scriptures. For example how can you prove that it is sinful to kill a man? There really is no way to prove it, as we cannot see the afterlife and what will happen. But we have faith in the scriptures (for various reasons) and in the scriptures these things are stated. The reasons why people have faith in the scriptures are many, and that would be the topic of another discussion, but it shouldnt be assumed that all faith is blind without evidence.

[dev]

Human life can not be there with 0% violence .

So recommendation is do minimum violence to live and cultivate god consciousness .

After all we kill many small creatures on putting a foot on floor which we can not even see.

So offer your food which you have cooked with love and devotion to lord then eat as prasadam to reduce the Karma of killing those vegetable.

And Lord says in 9th chapter in Gita,

If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it. (9.26)

Here Lord does not ask for meat or fish or egg.

Again if you are in such a situation where you do not get any vegetable ,

may be you can eat meat, fish to save your life ,but that situation remains exceptional.