Vishnu or Shiva as per Vedas?

[Yegan]

Vaishnavas say that Lord Vishnu is supreme and Saivists say that Lord Shiva is supreme. Both can argue their claim based either on Puranas or Gita. Some saivists do not accept Gita as authority and some Vaishnavas do not accept the Shiva purana as authority.

However common to both is the Vedas. The Vedas is accepted as authority by both sides (correct me if im not right).

 

Now my question is as follows: Is there any indication in the Vedas which shows either Shiva or Vishnu as the supreme lord?

[gokulkr]

Yes In Rig Veda it is clearly specified that Lord Shiva (Rudra) gets his power by meditating on Lord Vishnu. So Lord Vishnu is Supreme.

 

Hare Krishna

Om Namo Venkatesha

[Yegan]

 

Yes In Rig Veda it is clearly specified that Lord Shiva (Rudra) gets his power by meditating on Lord Vishnu. So Lord Vishnu is Supreme.

 

Hare Krishna

Om Namo Venkatesha

Interesting, can you quote the exact verses please?

[Guest guest]

 

Now my question is as follows: Is there any indication in the Vedas which shows either Shiva or Vishnu as the supreme lord?

Good question. Although many Vaishnavas or Shaivites here won't like to hear it, the truth is that Shiva is not mentioned in the Vedas as a god, but as a word meaning auspicious, but the deity for destruction - Rudra is mentioned. Vishnu is mentioned, but is a minor deity in the Vedas as is Brahma (Prajapati). Many Vaishnava and Shaivite sects don't really teach the Vedas, but teach the Puranas, Itihasa and Agamas.

The 'main' God of the Vedas is actually Indra, who became a minor god later in Vaishnavite and Shaivite traditions. Some believe that not only Rudra but Indra also was combined into the Shiva of later Hinduism, as auspiciousness (shiva) is a quality of Indra.

[aashish108]

The vedas caters for all types of people from all the modes of nature and the specific inclinations that they may have. There are even scriptures advocating sacrifice of animals to Mother Kali. The point is that they have accepted the Vedic Path of religion and hence slowly can advance their consciousness to its natural level of purity.

 

Hence, what may seem like contraditory verses in the Vedic Scriptures (e.g. main god is Indra etc) is actually on a superficial level. There is an underlining intent. This is why we go to Guru to Hear from them the real import of the vedas. Remember that the vedas was meant to be heard not read:

 

evam parampara-praptam

imam rajarsayo vidhu

sa kaleneha mahata

yogo nastah parantapa

BG 4.5

 

This supreme science was received through the chain of disciplic succession [which indicates that it was heard], and the saintly kings had understood it in that way.[...]

 

And so the real question is, who is a Real, authentic & bonafide Guru, who is coming from an authorised disciplic succession? He will give you the real answer to this thread!!! Not some Indologist who studies the Vedic texts from a bogus historical perspective:

 

 

The 'main' God of the Vedas is actually Indra, who became a minor god later in Vaishnavite and Shaivite traditions. Some believe that not only Rudra but Indra also was combined into the Shiva of later Hinduism, as auspiciousness (shiva) is a quality of Indra.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

It is a big topic which will take this thread off course, but 95% of the Vedic mantras are lost, thus in Kali yuga it is necessary to take guidance from other scriptures such as Puranas and Pancharatras.

[aashish108]

 

It is a big topic which will take this thread off course, but 95% of the Vedic mantras are lost, thus in Kali yuga it is necessary to take guidance from other scriptures such as Puranas and Pancharatras.

I am just curious. If Vyasadeva wrote all the vedic scriptures down at around 5000 years ago, how can 95% of these scriptures get lost so relatively quickly???

[Yegan]

And how do we know that 95% of the scriptures are lost?(I mean where do we get this information)

 

Hari Bol

 

[Guest guest]

I think the Upanishads are more important to Hinduism today, even though they are part of the Vedas, they are more relevant to the Hinduism practiced today than the brahmanas and samhitas.

 

If you look at all the sects of vaishnavas or shaivites, the common scriptures their acharyas have commentated on are the Upanishads, not the early Vedic portions. The Upanishads state the supreme as Brahman. All the schools of vaishnava, shaivite and shaktas identify their supreme god as identical with Brahman. In the Vedas, Brahman is seen as the origin or supreme source of all the Vedic gods.

[aashish108]

 

And how do we know that 95% of the scriptures are lost?(I mean where do we get this information)

 

Hari Bol

 

Well, I for one know that Srila Prabhupada says so, so there is your parampara verdict (BG 4.5)! Other than that, I dunno...

[Guest guest]

The Glories of Harihaa

Sastra pramana on Siva tattwa

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.6.42. - 50. & 4.2.2. 12

Brahmā Satisfies Lord Śiva & Daksha Curses Lord Siva

Lord Brahmā offers extraordinary prayers to

Lord Śiva, revealing many truths about

His real identity and position.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 4.7.1. - 2. 15

The Sacrifice Performed by Dakṣa

Mahādeva relays His thoughts about offenses

done by demigods.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 8.7.19 - 35. and 39. 16

Lord Śiva Saves the Universe by Drinking Poison

Sadāśiva is approached by Lord Himself and all

demigods to drink all the poison (negativity) for

the benefit of humanity.

 

Śrīmad Bhāgavatam 12.13.15. - 17. 22

The Glories of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam

Supremacy of Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, Lord Śiva

and the city of Kashī is revealed.

 

Laghu Bhagavatamrita (26-32, 298) 23

by Rupa Gosvami

Position of Śivaloka and identities of Sadāśiva,

Śambhu and Lord Śiva revealed.

 

Śri Brahma Samahitam (5.8.-9./15./16./45.) 25

Bhaktivinode Thakura & Jiva Gosvami

Identities of Sadāśiva (Maha Viṣṇu), Śambhu

and Lord Śiva revealed.

 

Gaura Ganoddesa Dipika, (76 – 87) 27

by Kavi Karnapura

Identity of Sadāśiva as Advaita Acarya revealed.

 

Śri Advaita Prakāśa (1., 4., 6., 15., 16., 18.) 29

by Śri Isana Nagara

The Pastimes of Śri Advaita Acarya

 

Śri Caitanya Caritamrita (Adi-lila, 6.) 33

The Glories of Śri Advaita Prabhu

 

Śiva Mahapurana 46

Non-difference between Sadāśiva and Viṣṇu

revealed.

 

Śiva Mahapurana 46

Kartikeya reveals true position of His father,

Sadāśiva.

 

Brahma Vaivarta Purana,

Prakriti Khanda (2.56.61) 47

Difference between Śri Kṛṣṇa and Sambhu

 

Skanda Upanishad (8-9.) 47

Lord Śiva and Viṣṇu are the same

 

Caitanya Bhagavata (9.84 & 10.150) 47

Śri Viṣṇu and Lord Śiva

 

Śri Brhad Bhagatamrtam

(1.2.79-99, 1.3.1-41, 2.3. 48 -76 & 113-121) 48

by Śrila Sanatan Goswami

Constitutional position of Sadāśiva, Śambhu and

Rudra revealed.

 

Krsna Caitanya Carita Mahakavya (8-21) 57

The glory of Lord Śiva's prasadam

 

Śri Krsna Karmritam (2. 24) 59

The glory of mantra Om namah Śivaya

 

Śri Caitanya Mangala 60

Mahaprabhu Himself speaks about glories of Sadaśiva

 

Śri Rama Caritamanasa, Lanka-Kanda 63

Glories of Lord Śiva presented

 

Sankalpa Kalpadruma (103) 64

Prayer to Gopisvara

 

Puranas 66

Śri Śiva's position revealed in Puranas

 

Śri Lalita-madhava (3) 68

Rupa Gosvami dreams Lord Śiva

 

Śri Vidagdha-Madhava (3a) 68

Lord Śiva appears in a dream

[Guest guest]

Discussion on whether Vishnu or Shiva (Jesus or Allah) is just waste of time, energy and totally pointless. I have seen people getting sidetracked in trying to figure out which god is more important.

What is more important is to remember that the vedas, gita bible and all lay down the same basic rules - lead a simple life (high thinking), help people, contribute positively to society and meditate on god.

Now meditate on god is where people get stuck - they want to know which god they should meditate on or worship. They do not want to worship a lesser god (if such thing existed). I think this is why all such threads start. You can pray on whatever is close to you. It may the deity of any temple that gave you peace or that you liked. Don't worry about what people say related to hierarchy of god. You will attain god even if you pray to stone with all your devotion. It is important to be patient and have devotion.

 

-Om Namah Shivaya/Hare Krishna/Jai gurudev

[gokulkr]

 

Interesting, can you quote the exact verses please?

asya devasya mILhuSo vayA viSNoreSasya prabhRthe havirbhiH

vide hi rudro rudriyaM mahitvaM yAsiSTaM vartirashvinAvirAvat || RV 7.40.5 ||

This makes it abundantly clear that Rudra derives his power from worship of Vishnu!

Hare Krishna

Om Namo Venkatesha

 

[Gaea]

 

I am just curious. If Vyasadeva wrote all the vedic scriptures down at around 5000 years ago, how can 95% of these scriptures get lost so relatively quickly???

only takes a few minutes to burn a book! I don't know about the 95% figure, but India has had at least two major anti-vedic invasions (the Arabs and British) - we know that at least one of these invaders made it their business to destroy temples and literature. While much of this literature was destroyed, i'm sure there are some remnants waiting to be found. And hey, the big man is still alive I hear so we could always ask him (a devotee at my local temple was talking about how Vyaas is still in the himalayas and his direct disciple comes down often from the hills to an ashram in Himachal Pradesh)

[aashish108]

 

only takes a few minutes to burn a book! I don't know about the 95% figure, but India has had at least two major anti-vedic invasions (the Arabs and British) - we know that at least one of these invaders made it their business to destroy temples and literature. While much of this literature was destroyed, i'm sure there are some remnants waiting to be found. And hey, the big man is still alive I hear so we could always ask him (a devotee at my local temple was talking about how Vyaas is still in the himalayas and his direct disciple comes down often from the hills to an ashram in Himachal Pradesh)

Ohhhhh I see. Well, its strange as we haven't even passed 1% of Kali Yuga, and 95% is lost already! ((5000 years / 500,000 years of kaliyuga) X 100 as a rough). Ohh Well! i wonder what the other chapters of Brahma Samita is about......more esoteric secrets no doubt.......

[vijay]

 

It is a big topic which will take this thread off course, but 95% of the Vedic mantras are lost, thus in Kali yuga it is necessary to take guidance from other scriptures such as Puranas and Pancharatras.

I've heard this figure of 95% of the vedas being lost is a myth which came about by some french devotees mistranslating a verse for a book (I think the samskaras one not sure). Prabhupada has said nothing that indicates this. I will try and get more info on this

[Guest guest]

visnu and shiva may be 2 sides of the same coin, in the mind of God..?

[Yegan]

 

I've heard this figure of 95% of the vedas being lost is a myth which came about by some french devotees mistranslating a verse for a book (I think the samskaras one not sure). Prabhupada has said nothing that indicates this. I will try and get more info on this

Dear vijay,

That would be kool if you can get some information about this famous 95%. I dont know where you would get ur info, but that would definitely be nice to know.

[Yegan]

 

The 'main' God of the Vedas is actually Indra, who became a minor god later in Vaishnavite and Shaivite traditions. Some believe that not only Rudra but Indra also was combined into the Shiva of later Hinduism, as auspiciousness (shiva) is a quality of Indra.

Could the indra mentioned be, the King of heaven (Supreme personality) instead of the 'actual' indra (King of heaven in the material domain)?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

I am just curious. If Vyasadeva wrote all the vedic scriptures down at around 5000 years ago, how can 95% of these scriptures get lost so relatively quickly???

This point is made by Jiva Goswami in Tattva Sandarbha, though he doesn't mention the exact figure of 95%. The figure of 95% is explained here:

 

 

After Srila Vyasadeva divided the Vedas into four books (Rg, Yajur, Sama and Atharva), his disciples further divided them into 1,130 divisions. This is stated in the Kurma Purana (52.19-20):

 

eka-vimsati-bhedena rg-vedam krtavan pura

sakhanam satenaiva yajur-vedam athakarot

sama-vedam sahasrena sakhanam prabibheda sah

atharvanam atho vedam bibedha navakena tu

 

‘Previously the Rg Veda was divided into 21 sections, the Yajur Veda into 100 sections, the Sama Veda into 1,000 sections and the Atharva Veda into 9 divisions.’

 

Each division has 4 minor divisions, namely the Samhitas, Brahmanas, Aranyakas and Upanisads. Thus altogether the 4 Vedas contain 1,130 Samhitas, 1,130 Brahmanas, 1,130 Aranyakas, and 1,130 Upanisads. This makes a total of 4,520 divisions.

 

At present, most of these texts have disappeared due to the influence of time. We can only find 11 Samhitas, 18 Brahmanas, 7 Aranyakas and 220 Upanisads which constitutes a mere 6% of the entire Vedic canon!

 

It should be noted that this just speaks of the lost divisions. It is highly likely that there are further lost verses, lost chapters, or lost sections within those divisions that we still have. If the same loss percentage was carried on to the verses, it would result in 0.25% of the Vedas existing today; (5% of the verses existing in 5% of the available divisions of the Vedas). This is not provable, but just for theoretical discussion.

 

But even assuming that the portions of the Vedas that we have today are 100% perfect, without loss of any type, it would still mean that 95% of the Vedas are lost.

[vijay]

 

This point is made by Jiva Goswami in Tattva Sandarbha, though he doesn't mention the exact figure of 95%. The figure of 95% is explained here:

It should be noted that this just speaks of the lost divisions. It is highly likely that there are further lost verses, lost chapters, or lost sections within those divisions that we still have. If the same loss percentage was carried on to the verses, it would result in 0.25% of the Vedas existing today; (5% of the verses existing in 5% of the available divisions of the Vedas). This is not provable, but just for theoretical discussion.

But even assuming that the portions of the Vedas that we have today are 100% perfect, without loss of any type, it would still mean that 95% of the Vedas are lost.

Haribol,

This is what I was shown, and I was told that this is a mistranslation of the Kurma purana, the divisons actually means branches taught to disciples, this person has translated the chapter so the context can be taken in to account and is has been showing devotee scholors to make sure. Will try and find out more when I see him.

[Yegan]

Here comes the .(dot) again in trinity form now! Hidden message or not?

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

This is what I was shown, and I was told that this is a mistranslation of the Kurma purana, the divisons actually means branches taught to disciples, this person has translated the chapter so the context can be taken in to account and is has been showing devotee scholors to make sure. Will try and find out more when I see him.

I will have to have a look at Kurma Purana, though the above is in line with what Jiva Gosami says in Tattva Sandarbha, as well as many other general references in the Puranas that state number of verses for various texts that are much higher than those found today. Similarly there are countless books mentioned in the Puranas that deal with particular sciences that dont exist today.

[Jahnava Nitai Das]

 

and I was told that this is a mistranslation of the Kurma purana...

Also I would be interested to hear who told you, just to know whether it is from someone with a background in Sanskrit or not.

[Yegan]

The link given by jndas is quiet informative. I learn a few things there, plz do have a look.

 

I was a bit disturb above the classification of the puranas (i.e sattvika,rajasika and tamasika),but now it a bit more clear in my mind, specially after learning that Lord Shiva himself who defined this classification.

 

The bhagavata, is said to give the highest religious principles. The skanda purana also glorifies the bhagavata purana.

 

I still have a question though. If the vedas refered a lot to "Indra" as supreme (as some members here have pointed out) why he is not really mentioned in the puranas? The puranas is after all the explanatory version of the vedas.

 

Hari bol