sufism / mysticism

[Guest guest]

i have a question, in all religions there are a inner circel, the jews have qabbalah, the muslims have sufism and irfan, early christians have gnosticism.. in hinduism, what is the inner circel? the inner mystic movement?

[theist]

Vaisnavism is the inner circle prabhu. Even within Vaisnavism there are even more innner circles within the inner circle. These are rasa, and levels of intimacy and mood are what distinquish those inner circles. They are closed off in one sense yet even the innermost are open for everyone based on desire and and type of loving mood one awakens for Krsna.

 

What could be more mysterious than divine love for the Lord?

[imranhasan]

As much as I understand it, Hinduism is itself a mystical movement.

[Guest guest]

no hinduism is for the masses like chistianity and islam, but i accept the answer from theist

[bija]

From the back cover of Teachings of Lord Caitanya:

Caitanya Mahaprabhu (Mahaprabhu means "the Great Master") appeared in Bengal, India, in 1486, and He lived for only 48 years, yet He began a revolution in spiritual consciousness that has profoundly affected the lives of millions. Renowned as a great saint even in His youth, Lord Caitanya left His family and friends at the age of 24 to teach the forgotten essence of the ancient Vedic wisdom throughout India. Although he was a fully renounced mystic, He taught how one can act in spiritual consciousness even within one's home, occupation and social affairs. Thus, His teachings, although timeless, bear special relevance for today's world. He taught a practical process that anyone can perform to directly feel the ecstacy of pure love of God.

The back cover of this book is obviously targeted at the general masses, as it does not mention that Gauranga Mahaprabhu is Krsna (God) himself. But nevertheless it is a very nice piece of writing gloryfying Mahaprabhu.

Lord Gauranga for me is the greatest mystic, as He taught the inner essence (love of God), and so mercifully offers this sweetness to one and all by the spreading of Lord Krsna's Holy Names.

 

All glories to Lord Gauranga:

grhe ba vanete thake, ha gauranga bole dake, narottama mage tara sanga. "One may reside in the house or in the forest, but if he or she is constantly chanting the name of Gauranga, then I (Narottama Dasa Thakura) want his association and want to serve him."

[Guest guest]

yes great mystics always try to deliver the masses, but Caitanya wherent christian, muslim or hindu, He was a follower of God.. this is the true essence of mysticism, as it is said in the Gita, to give upp ALL religions and dutys to serve the Lord.. this is mysticism, and can be practised by all everywhere! and as i have understood the Gita is the most secret knowledge of mysticism, qabbalah and other secret doctrines are hidden in the masses wrightings, but the Gita is open for all, but the masses dont take part of it..

[bija]

Jaya Govinda Dasa,

 

 

and as i have understood the Gita is the most secret knowledge of mysticism, qabbalah and other secret doctrines are hidden in the masses wrightings, but the Gita is open for all, but the masses dont take part of it..quote by Govinda Dasa.

I find this so wonderful. That such rare treasure is now so freely distributed.

Regarding the masses not taking part in it, here is a section of AC Bhaktivedanta's purport to Srimad Bhagavatam 1.5.16 http://vedabase.net/sb/1/5/16/en which I find interesting:

...The expert devotees also can discover novel ways and means to convert the non-devotees in terms of particular time and circumstance. Devotional service is dynamic activity, and the expert devotees can find out competent means, to inject it into the dull brains of the materialistic population. Such transcendental activities of the devotees for the service of the Lord can bring a new order of life to the foolish society of materialistic men...

 

but Caitanya wherent christian, muslim or hindu, He was a follower of God.. this is the true essence of mysticism..quote by Govinda Dasa.

I think so too.

[Sephiroth]

 

i have a question, in all religions there are a inner circel, the jews have qabbalah, the muslims have sufism and irfan, early christians have gnosticism.. in hinduism, what is the inner circel? the inner mystic movement?

I think Mystism in Hindusm comes from Shiva Beliefs. Many of this beliefs went to China and formed Tao beliefs which very similar to what they have in India (among Shiva Mystics or Siddhars).

Matter a fact, did you know that in Shintosm (Japanese religion before Buddhism), they have similar concept of ONE giving rise to TWO which made the Universe?

Same concept can be found in Hindusm - Concept of Trinity. Unfortunately, many Hindus don't know this.

[bija]

Sephiroth,

In the picture you display in your avatara box. The second two circles from the top, do they also signify the "one" becoming "two".

[shambu]

I think it's hard to say for sure what is the "Inner Circle" of Hinduism. Vaisnavas will say it's meditation on Radha-Krsna pastimes (the essence of Gaudiya Vaisnavism, I would say), Saivites will probably say it's Tantra (TANTRA) that is the essence, while Jnanins will maybe say that studying Vedanta and becoming a pure detached person is the essence. This confusion is caused because of the multi-facetted nature of "Hinduism". First give us a definition of what is Hinduism, and then we will be able to tell what is its essence, prabhu.

[Guest guest]

it's yoga, and the arousal of the kundalini shakti which opens your chakras as it climbs higher up the spine and opens your third eye ultimately.

 

THAT is the inner circle you seem to be thinking of. This is attained through various ways though, and the path is very open. It can be done through bhakti, meditation on God, yogic exercises, etc.

[shambu]

 

it's yoga, and the arousal of the kundalini shakti which opens your chakras as it climbs higher up the spine and opens your third eye ultimately.

"Third eye" or "Ajna Chakra" isn't the highest. On top of the head is the seventh chakra called Sahasrara, that is ultimately to be "opened" by raising the Kundalini, and also when a person's soul leaves the body this is supposedly the best doorway, towards liberation.

[Guest guest]

accualy there are even higher cakras then sahasrara.. over that one we have 33 cakras, 4th and 5th dimensional cakras..

[Guest guest]

I know the 7 main chakras, but please tell me where I can read more about these higher chakras. Thanks.

[theist]

From a better angle we can see that Vaisnavism is really the most mystical, essential component of any religion. In fact without bhakti for the Supreme Person as the goal how can any religion be said to be a religion.

 

It is shortsighted to say that Vaisnavism is the essence of Hinduism alone for that signals that vaisnavism is a product of Hinduism. We know that the essential active nature of the jiva is Vaisnavism so just as the jiva is eternal so is bhakti. It predates Hinduism.

[chandradas]

Hare Krishna,

Krishna is the mystic of all mystics, so we must surrender to him alone.

[bija]

In regards to the original question and the words "inner circle."

As far as I have read about sufism, these teachings were explained to an inner circle of Mohammed's followers. As Mohammed is regarded as the seal of the prophets, these sufi teachings(the inner meaning of the prophets teachings) were only taught to a select few who were "qualified" to understand. Here is the difference with Caitanya's movement. He distributed love of God without consideration to one and all. And by practicing what He taught, one's qualification would develop.

From what I have read of Jewish Kabbalah, there are writings that this teaching is the "original teaching" as taught to the first man Adam. So it teaches that the Kabbalah is the original teaching. Which, I am speculating from memory here, may have been lost over time( if someone knows differently, please let me know).

So possibly no direct comparison as inner circle teachings may be quite correct. But at a closer study of each tradition there are comparisons on a mystical inner level to some degree.

I have not commented on Saivism, Vedanta etc. because I am not qualified to comment about them.

[Guest guest]

 

In regards to the original question and the words "inner circle."

As far as I have read about sufism, these teachings were explained to an inner circle of Mohammed's followers. As Mohammed is regarded as the seal of the prophets, these sufi teachings(the inner meaning of the prophets teachings) were only taught to a select few who were "qualified" to understand. Here is the difference with Caitanya's movement. He distributed love of God without consideration to one and all. And by practicing what He taught, one's qualification would develop.

From what I have read of Jewish Kabbalah, there are writings that this teaching is the "original teaching" as taught to the first man Adam. So it teaches that the Kabbalah is the original teaching. Which, I am speculating from memory here, may have been lost over time( if someone knows differently, please let me know).

So possibly no direct comparison as inner circle teachings may be quite correct. But at a closer study of each tradition there are comparisons on a mystical inner level to some degree.

I have not commented on Saivism, Vedanta etc. because I am not qualified to comment about them.

it is said that sufism existed before islam.. but to say this to sum muslim isnt very good.. Caitanya met a sufi and talk to him about bhakti, the man in black in caritamrita.. with the guards.. u know.. he was a sufi, when one get the description of the close and the open mindeness (sorry for bad english)

[bija]

I undertand what you are saying Govinda Dasa. This pastime of Lord Caitanya does show very much openess. It is a wonderful pastime of how we can relate to each other regarding such discussions. Caitanya set a perfect example. This pastime can be found in Caitanya Caritamrita, Madhya-lila, ch. 18 around text 154 onward. www.vedabase.net/cc for those who may be interested.

Regarding the claims that sufism existed before Islam as an ancient teaching; and that kabbalah was the original teaching spoke to the first man, that was lost over time. The following verses from Bhagavad Gita are relevant I feel. The parallels are very evident.

BG ch 4, verse 1: The Personality of Godhead, Lord Sri Krsna, said: I instructed this imperishable science of yoga to the sun god, Vivasvan, and Vivasvan instructed it to Manu, the father of mankind, and Manu instructed it to Iksvaku.

verse 2: This supreme science was thus recieved through the chain of disciplic succession, and the saintly kings understood it in that way. But in course of time the succession was broken, and therefore the science as it is appears lost.

verse 3: That very ancient science of the relationship with the supreme is today told by Me to you because you are my dear devotee as well as My friend and can therefore understand the transcendental mystery of this science.

verse 8: To deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I Myself appear, millenium after millenium.

 

from AC Bhaktivedanta's purport to verse 8:

....Therefore it is said here that to deliver the devotee and vanquish the demon miscreants, the Lord appears in different incarnations.

In the Caitanya Caritamrita of Krsnadasa Kaviraja, the following verses (Madhya 20.263-264) summarize these principles of incarnation:

sṛṣṭi-hetu yei mūrti prapañce avatare

sei īśvara-mūrti 'avatāra' nāma dhare

māyātīta paravyome sabāra avasthāna

viśve avatari' dhare 'avatāra' nāma

"The avatāra, or incarnation of Godhead, descends from the kingdom of God for material manifestation. And the particular form of the Personality of Godhead who so descends is called an incarnation, or avatāra. Such incarnations are situated in the spiritual world, the kingdom of God. When they descend to the material creation, they assume the name avatāra."

There are various kinds of avatāras, such as puruṣāvatāras, guṇāvatāras, līlāvatāras, śakty-āveśa avatāras, manvantara-avatāras and yugāvatāras — all appearing on schedule all over the universe....

 

Regarding the different kinds of avatara's that descend; in relation to our discussion saktyavesa avatara is of interest. Acarya's in line from Bhaktivinoda Thakura have said that Prophet Muhammad was a partial saktyavesa avatara (empowered incarnation).

Are these inner circle teachings we are discussing actually remnants, or, teachings adapted to time and place, of what was actually spoken by Lord Krsna to the sun god, Vivasvan? Maybe too much speculation here, but good food for thought.

[Guest guest]

 

From what I have read of Jewish Kabbalah, there are writings that this teaching is the "original teaching" as taught to the first man Adam. So it teaches that the Kabbalah is the original teaching.

The Hindu equivelent must be 'Yoga' then. I'm referring to Raja Yoga, because as we Hindus follow the Vedas or scriptures and sects derived from the Vedic tradition, it is through the practice of Raja-Yoga that Hinduism and the Vedas were born. But the original sapta-rishi's followed Raja-yoga as they went in deep meditation and made contact with God and then the Vedas were revealed. Of the 4 yoga paths,It is Raja-Yoga or very intense Bhakti-yoga that will result in first-hand experience of God. The techniques of Raja-Yoga were codified by the Sage Patanjali but the meditation techniques were so ancient, thousands of years before Patanjali, you could say this practice of raja-yoga as a means to meet God is more older than when the Vedas were revealed. The Rishi's were all Raja-yogis before the Vedas were revealed. The Indus Valley civilisation show images and statues of Sages in known Raja-yoga postures.

[bija]

Number 2,

it is really interesting to read your post. I find it wonderful how profoundly deep, and steeped in history, millenium upon millenium this vedic culture is. I feel very grateful that I have been introduced to it.

I would like to say that the majority of what I have said in my previous couple of posts regarding "inner circle teachings" are just things I have thought of and gleaned in my reading time over the years. By no means are my words authoritative in any way.

I would have to agree with you that in Satya Yuga the process practiced was meditation and no doubt existed long before Patanjali wrote the codes down. I would like to quote AC Bhaktivedanta:"Satya-yuga is called the golden age because in this age everyone is pure and spiritually advanced. The conditions in the Satya Yuga are particularly suitable for the practice of meditational yoga as people have long lifetimes and are undisturbed."

 

At the same time, the knowledge that Krsna spoke to Vivasvan is the same knowledge that He spoke to Arjuna. And what was spoken is a complete treatise on God consciousness and the processes involved, not just one process of yoga.

The inclinations of my heart are toward bhakti to GaurangaKrsna, and by some good fortune and mercy from God I hope to continue this bhakti yoga process. But saying this, recently having gained access to the internet, I much look forward to learning more about the different paths of yoga also. I would like to quote Bhagavad Gita ch.6 vs. 47 part of the purport by AC Bhaktivedanta Swami, ".....to analyze bhakti-yoga minutely one has to understand these other yoga's. The yogi who is progressive is therefore on the true path of eternal good fortune."....

 

And to finish off Bhagavad Gita chaper 6 (Dhyana Yoga) verses 46 and 47:

"A yogi is greater than the ascetic, greater than the empiricist and greater than the fruitive worker. Therefore, O Arjuna, in all circumstances, be a yogi. And of all yogi's, the one with great faith who always abides in Me, thinks of Me within himself, and renders transcendental loving service to Me - he is most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all. That is my opinion."

[Guest guest]

CC Madhya 18.185: Among the Muslims was a grave person who was wearing a black dress. People called him a saintly person.

this is a good description of a sufi..

CC Madhya 18.199: The saintly Muslim replied, "All that You have said is true. This has certainly been written in the Koran, but our scholars can neither understand nor accept it

and here the sufi agree that the normal schoolars of the muslims cant accept or understand what a sufi understand, thnX to Caitanya..

***

Krsna is the Supreme Master and original Guru.. the simplest way but most powerfull way os pure mysticism is to attain love for God, and Caitanya thaught us the best way, chant the name of the Lord

[Guest guest]

 

Number 2,

it is really interesting to read your post. I find it wonderful how profoundly deep, and steeped in history, millenium upon millenium this vedic culture is. I feel very grateful that I have been introduced to it.

 

I think it is because within Hinduism we've had so many sages for thousands of years that contribute towards Hinduism refressing the message of spirituality throughout the ages and we will continue to have in the future. That is what has kept Hinduism alive for so long.

 

 

I would like to say that the majority of what I have said in my previous couple of posts regarding "inner circle teachings" are just things I have thought of and gleaned in my reading time over the years. By no means are my words authoritative in any way.

 

I'm glad you've bought up this subject of "inner-circle teachings". Raja yoga I believe was the original means to attain God, formulated by the Rishis, but since it is hard for the common man, Bhakti-yoga was recommended. Both when practiced intensly will lead to experience of God, which is also what the sufis and kabbalists wanted within Islam and Judaism. Just like the yogis within Hinduism. Some modern kabbalists even think Jesus was a kabbalist. You're right in saying that Hinduism is for the masses and we need to identify the mystical inner-circle teachings.

Most Hindus I find, follow a yoga of synthesis, combining the 3 or 4 yogas to varying degrees.

[bija]

It is pleasure to talk with you Number 2,

 

I think it is because within Hinduism we've had so many sages for thousands of years that contribute towards Hinduism refreshing the message of spirituality throughout the ages and we will continue to have in the future. That is what has kept Hinduism alive for so long.

Yes I can see what you are saying, we are very fortunate. And the teachings being taught by the sages are appropriate for the age.

 

...Raja yoga I believe was the original means to attain God, formulated by the Rishis, but since it is hard for the common man, Bhakti-yoga was recommended. Both when practiced intensly will lead to experience of God...

I got a laugh and smiled when I read this:D, yes surely I am a common person. The disciplic succession I am a part of that descends from Caitanya Mahaprabhu teaches a process that is appropriate for the most fallen souls in this age of kali. Caitanya and Nityananda Prabhu are very merciful, and their mercy extends far and wide.

 

You're right in saying that Hinduism is for the masses....

I actually did not say this, you may find it is in post number 4 of this thread.

 

Once again I find it refreshing to hear your perspectives on Hinduism and wish you peace with your yoga practice. The Bhagavad Gita is a great scripture and no doubt it will continue to be as many years pass by; its message is timeless. I have been studying it while we have been having this conversation as I find this a good way to learn, as there are not many others I know where I live who are interested in it.

I have been reading the purport to Chapter 4 verse 1 by AC Bhaktivedanta Swami and in it he says

...The age of the current Manu is calculated to last some 305,300,000 years, of which 120,400,000 have passed. Accepting that before the birth of Manu the Gita was spoken by the Lord to His disciple the sun god Vivasvan, a rough estimate is that the Gita was spoken at least 120,400,000 years ago;....

So no doubt this science will be around for a long long time to come.

 

Also, I find what I have read about sufism and jewish mysticism to be very interesting, and the people I have briefly talked with very nice. Being interested in such things I think is why I was so drawn to Caitanya (Gauranga Mahaprabhu) initially. These traditions hold so much hope for the world. In fact a spiritual teacher who I am taking shelter from recommends me to have the names Nityananda, Gauranga, and, Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna Hare Hare Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare, in my field of consciousness as much as possible. Such an appropriate practice for one such as me. Om Shanti

[Sephiroth]

 

Sephiroth,

In the picture you display in your avatara box. The second two circles from the top, do they also signify the "one" becoming "two".

The top most section is called Keter (The Crown). It split into two portions - Wisdom (Chokmah - right side) and Understanding (Binah - left side).

This is basic for ALL Mystisms ... In the beginning there was ONE, which gave birth to TWO which gave birth to ALL.

ALL religions (which comes from God) have this similarities because the Truth cannot be changed; just misinterpreted, misunderstood or just miss altogether (like Islam did - there's no Kaballah concept in Islam).