when and how do you know who is your guru!!

[varsana]

I started this thread, Because this is my actual situation,

I practically grew up in the movement, My mother joined the movement when I was 3 years, I loved Everything Lectures, prasadam, kirtan...

and to be more specific, I was fond of srila prabhupada!!!! I would always help the pujari dressing srila prabhupada. And I asked him when I was 6 or something can I take initiation from prabhupada.. he explained to me that tough srila prabhupada was our jagat guru, and he was present in his teachings and books we still need guidence from guru!! But I was to young to understand that..

 

There was a devotee giving lecture about the importance of having a guru.

I was just eleven when I listend to this lecture but it made me wonder: Who is my guru??? By growing up in the movement I had the fortune of meeting so many guru's. And each time I met one I would think maybe this is my guru.

 

I was drying up, I was not energetic, and happy to do service anymore.

What was wrong with, I chanted my rounds, did service the whole package.

But still I felt like something was missing in my life..

 

So finally at the age of 18 I met a guru,

who was very diffrent to other guru's. With all do respect! I never saw him, or listend to his lectures before.. When I went back home I was so energetic so alive.. I had not felt like this in ages. I told my mum I met my guru.

 

So over the years I kind of learned to know him, well not exactley, there were always so many dicipels around him..

I tought My time will come..

 

Meanwhile I kept following his programs wherever he would be, skipping

school to attend his programs, Altough I was introduced to him, I was accepted, chanted his pranam mantra...and Met him about 10 times, I never spoke to him for more than 5 minutes.....

This botherd me....But maybe I was expecting too much!!!!

only time would tell

 

Last year I went to india for sometime, And saw my gurumaharaj, but he was so diffrent here, there was such a distance, he did not knew who I was.. There were so many diciples of him, acting like the owned him..

I tought I was overreacting, But deep inside I felt hurt!!!!

Was This my guru??? How was I suppose to build up a bond with my guru..

 

Then I saw him again during kartik in vrindavan, he was talking with other devotees, so I waited for more than an hour, when the conversation was finished my uncle wanted to ask if I could meet him some time... He said nothing smiled and walked away!!!!!!!!

 

I saw him severel times there after, I tried to talk to him, But I felt he was ignoring me, walking past me, My heart was thorn apart. did I do something wrong? Was I to demanding.

 

I then tought of somethink I did not think of yet..Ofcourse that must be it. I am a young unmarried mataji, That is not more then logical.. I had some peace with it. for just one night, the next day I went to gaura arti and saw that maharaj was talking to a girl whom I knew of she was not married, and after her so many other girls who were not his diciples ofcourse there were always prabhu's close by.. But then again, I was always with my brother..

who saw how hurt I was....

 

I cried for days, praying to srila prabhupada so much!!!! for guidence...

A few days later I calmed down, and some of my friends recently dot initiated, I was so happy for them.. Then One friend of mine told me, your time will come....And that was when I burst out, How will my time ever come. When my gurudev ignores me....... and I began to cry... They were trying to cheer me up.... but whatever they did nothing could cheer me up..

 

So I went to my aunts place, and talked to her and my uncle.. they knew everything... Seeking for there advice and shelter as they were senior devotees.. they told me I was not overreacting...and having a bond with guru is the most natural thing.. personal association.. cause else what is the need of other guru's we have srila prabhupada.

 

Now I am back in my country, talking to a lot of senior devotees about this,

they explaind to my that my gurumahraj is like this, he has so many dicipels

and there devotees apriring for him for more than 8 years and still they never talked to him before.. They told me I have to accept this fact that he has a lot of diciples...and if I can not live with not having a close bond with him I should not take diksa from him..

 

I know that in prabhupada's time there were so many devotees who get diksa by letter.. and never met srila prabhupada.. But I also was taught by my father that every devotee has diffrent needs!!!!! One can have with peace with that or not... the thing then is to find another guru

 

Siksa I take from prabhupada, and devotees always tell me do not worry you are so young, when the time is right you will find your guru...

 

But when is the right time???

how do you find another guru, I ment so many sanyasis over the years.

But i never have that feeling that I had when I met my guru..

And lately I had so many dreams of me taking diksa out of iskcon,,

But I do not want that, Iskcon is my life

Now I feel a bit lost...

 

I hope somebody could help me with this!!!!

 

[gHari]

Varsana,

 

I am not one to talk, but I still do. I would make a list of the reasons you feel this guru is your eternal guru. I would write a letter and perfect it over several weeks so that it says concisely exactly what I feel. Then I would send it to him. You can leave him an out by finally asking his advice on the matter of finding your guru. Or you can plead like Srila Bhaktisiddhanta did. And of course, nothing beats surrender. Nothing.

 

Good luck, dear one. Krsna is fond of you - I do not worry that He will not arrange things nicely for you in His own sweet time.

 

gHari

[Guest guest]

one have several gurus, srila prabhupada and shiva are 2 of mine, u feel it in ur heart when u meet ur guru.. when i found mine i was filled with extreme devotion and love for this great person, still he is siksa guru, cant give diksa yet, but i will wait for him.. shiva is the guru that lead me to Krsna and Prabhupada is the guru who learned me about Krsna.. "Prabhupada is greater then a jagat guru because he can free the whole universe" ( quote from Kadamba Kanana Swami)

[Yegan]

Dear varsana,

Im not the right person to give you advice on this delicate issue, but I can certainly tell you that Govinda never ever let down his devotees. Krishna knows your suffering better than anyone else, and im sure he will organise something for you, very very sure. Praying to mother Radhe in this situation, might be very beneficial.

You probably know everything that i have mentioned but nevertheless I just feel like repeting what you already know.

 

Jai radhe

 

 

[theist]

 

Siksa I take from prabhupada, and devotees always tell me do not worry you are so young, when the time is right you will find your guru...

Prabhupada said, "Who you hear from, that is your guru."

 

Sounds to me like you grew up knowing your guru. Such a fortunate soul.

[Puru_Das]

 

I started this thread, Because this is my actual situation,

. . . Then I saw him again during kartik in vrindavan, he was talking with other devotees, so I waited for more than an hour, when the conversation was finished my uncle wanted to ask if I could meet him some time... He said nothing smiled and walked away!!!!!!!!

I saw him severel times there after, I tried to talk to him, But I felt he was ignoring me, walking past me, My heart was thorn apart. did I do something wrong? Was I too demanding?.

Not at all. Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains in the 62nd anga of bhakti:

62) Sajåtîya-snigdha-mahattara-sådhu-sanga?

Association of like-minded, affectionate, advanced devotees

". . . In the same way, sådhakas who worship Krsna should associate with devotees of Krsna, and sådhakas who worship other incarnations of the Lord should associate with devotees who worship the same forms of the Lord.

Although a sådhu may be of the same spiritual disposition, one should associate with those sådhus who are affectionately disposed to oneself ( snigdha). The word snigdha refers to those who are affectionate, well-wishing and rasika – not those who are harsh, unsympathetic or indifferent. The esoteric mysteries of bhajana and genuine instruction regarding the method of performing bhajana cannot be obtained from sådhus who are indifferently disposed or who are not affectionate. Therefore to associate with saintly devotees who are soft-hearted and affectionate is of the greatest utility. . . "

Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu-bindu

Translation and commentary by Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaja

http://bvml.org/SBNM/books/index.html

 

...and if I can not live with not having a close bond with him I should not take diksa from him

Good advice.

Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja gave some nice advice to us all regarding who can actually be compassionate. In Mayapura, just prior to his physical departure, he had this short conversation with Hari Vilasa after his last public lecture.

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS

Real Compassion?

Devotee: But if one has theoretical understanding that he has gotten form the words of the spiritula master, then one is rightly situated. So in your class you said that only the topmost devotee can be compassionate.

Gour Govinda Swami: Yes, only one who sees Krsna.

Devotee: So my question is, does that mean no one else can be compassionate?

Gour Govinda Swami: One may be compassionate to fulfill his own selfish desire. One may be compassionate to some and not compassionate to others. He has raga and dvesa, liking and disliking. He is not equal to one and all. He cannot be. Unless one sees Krsna how can he be compassionate? He will see, this is Krsna's jiva suffering. His heart bleeds. He cannot sit tight. He will go out and preach Krsna consciousness. And who preaches? Prana ache yara, sei hetu pracara; one who has life? What is life? Jivanam sarva-bhutesu. Krsna says, "I am jivan, I am the life in all living entities." One who sees Krsna everywhere. Who sees Krsna's jiva suffering because of forgetfulness of Krsna, because of a lack of Krsna conscoiusness; he has prana, life. He goes out and preaches. He is completely surrendered to Krsna. Therefore Krsna came as Mahaprabhu, as a bhakta (a devotee), to teach devotion, to teach how to surrender unto Krsna (sikhaya sarangati bhakater prana). Saranagati is the life of the devotee who is completely surrendered. Krsna tare kore atmasara (then Krsna accepts him). Prana ache yara, sei hetu pracara (he has got life, therefore he goes out and preaches). Otherwise, who can preach? How can one preach unless one sees Krsna, sees Krsna's jiva suffering? He does not want anyone to suffer. Everyone should be Krsna conscious. Therefore, here Narada Muni says that everyone should act like this. This is the purpose of Srila Prabhupada forming the society for Krsna consciousness.

http://bvml.org/SGGM/aswe.htm

 

. . . And lately I had so many dreams of me taking diksa out of iskcon,,

But I do not want that, Iskcon is my life

Now I feel a bit lost...

I hope somebody could help me with this!!!!

ISKCON means wherever you find devotees who are conscious of Krsna. Srila Prabhupada wrote in chapter 19 of the Nectar of Devotion:

". . . Although many different processes for developing love of Godhead have been explained so far, Srila Rüpa Gosvämi now gives us a general description of how one can best achieve such a high position. The beginning of ecstatic love of Godhead is basically faith. There are many societies and associations of pure devotees, and if someone with just a little faith begins to associate with such societies, his advancement to pure devotional service is rapid. The influence of a pure devotee is such that if someone comes to associate with him with a little faith, one gets the chance of hearing about the Lord from authoritative scriptures like Bhagavad-gitä and Srimad-Bhägavatam.

other suggested reading:

Non-Sectarian Vaisnava-Dharma

Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur on the nature of sectarianism from the introduction to the Sri Krsna Samhita:

http://bvml.org/SBTP/nsvd.htm

Organised Religion

by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura

http://bvml.org/SBSST/organised_religion.htm

Sri Guru & His Grace

by Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Maharaja

Chapter Five

God Consciousness vs. Society Consciousness

http://bvml.org/SBRSM/SGaHG.html#5

The Mental Prison Of The Institution

Editorial (VNN) - by Atulananda das

http://www.vnn.org/editorials/ET9809/ET19-2250.html

Srila Jiva Gosvami says:

Paramartha-gurasrayo vyavaharika-gurvadiparityagenapi kartavyah

"One should not accept a spiritual master based on hereditary, social or ecclesiastical conventions. Such a professional guru should be rejected. One must accept a qualified spiritual master, who can help one advance toward the ultimate goal of life, krsna prema

(Bhakti-sandharba, annucheda 210)

What matter from which Vaisnava Mission you find such sad guru, as long as you find someone qualified?

[Guest guest]

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja conversation, Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb.12, 2002 (morning):

 

“Therefore, in his service to Radhika, for rati-keli-siddhyai, a guru cannot serve in his male form. Srila Swami Maharaja and my Gurudeva are both serving there in their female forms as gopis. In that realm my Gurudeva is Vinoda Manjari, Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Thakura is Nayana Manjari, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is Kamala Manjari, Srila Jiva Gosvami is Vilasa Manjari, Srila Rupa Gosvami is Rupa Manjari, and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami is Rati Manjari. These manjaris can serve Radha-Krishna Conjugal.”

 

Sripad Dhrstadyumna dasa: “And our Srila Prabhupada?”

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: “If you fully surrender, by body, mind, words and ego, then I may tell you. Otherwise, I will not. I know who he is, but you do not know. None of the ISKCON leaders know. Your Prabhupada has cheated them all, in the sense that he has not revealed himself to them at all.’’

[Puru_Das]

Who Is The Perfect Guru?

 

 

(A Vyasa-puja lecture)

http://www.purebhakti.com/lectures/lecture20020213a.shtml

It is a good idea to read this entire offering, rather than just a short part of it out of context .

 

[shiva]

It seems to me that the person you are writing about as "your guru" that you are basing this conclusion on a "feeling". This is what you said:

 

 

I was drying up, I was not energetic, and happy to do service anymore.

What was wrong with, I chanted my rounds, did service the whole package.

But still I felt like something was missing in my life..

 

So finally at the age of 18 I met a guru,

who was very diffrent to other guru's. With all do respect! I never saw him, or listend to his lectures before.. When I went back home I was so energetic so alive.. I had not felt like this in ages. I told my mum I met my guru.

Not knowing you all I can say is that it appears that when when you were a young person you were very enthusiastic about bhakti, but as you entered your teen years that enthusiasm waned. This is understandable. The teen years for most people are about seeking independence and seeking to enjoy that which was forbidden or unknown as a child. When you got a bit older, more mature, 18, you went to a lecture and were insipired towards bhakti once again.

 

There are different types of gurus. The vartma pradarsaka is the guru who inspires you towards bhakti, the siksa guru is the guru or gurus who you receive tattva jnana from, spiritual knowledge. The diksa guru is the guru who initiates you. There is too much emphasis on the driving need and necessity of a diksa guru in some circles. This leads to situations like yours where you feel it is a pressing need to find someone to give you diksa. You then feel distraught and lacking in your spiritual life if you cannot get initiated or find the proper diksa guru. That is not a good mentality to be in. It leads to taking someone, anyone, as diksa guru based on either the desire to be initiated in order to be intiated, or to want initation from someone due to an emotional response to a person's charisma or speaking skill.

 

It could be that the person whom you think is "my guru" was a vartma pradarsaka guru who Krishna arranged to inspire you to take up bhakti once again, or he could be one amongst a series of siksa gurus whom you will meet, or he could be someone worth taking diksa from. It seems to me that you may be transferring your desire for intimacy onto a person who is not able to give you what you want. What you seem to want more then anything is intimacy from a spiritually advanced person. Maybe you should seek that in a husband? A guru is needed if someone wants to learn from that person. Personal intimacy is not so important in that case. Association through the words is the essence of the guru sisya relationship. Maybe Krishna is trying to tell you something by not allowing you intimate association with "your guru"?

[Guest guest]

Hare krishna everyone,

 

I would like to take this oppertunity to thank all the devotees, for answering to my question. It means a lot to me

G-hari prabhuji, Thank you so much for your advise, I will certainly do what you said, Your words felt like the words of a father, I really appreicite it

Yegan, Thank you so much of reminding me,that we cannot do anything on our own. You know it but sometimes you need someone to remind you, because that is the tendency.

 

shiva: I am just 21 but I know the diffrence between guru and a husband,

And I do not need a husband, I need a Guru.

I would not ask my gurudev to solve my material problems, He is there for my spiritual life, my guide, my father.. Ofcourse I need to feel shelterd..It is about feeling, spiritual needs, spiritual guidence. On material platform I am doing ok, It is spiritual nourishment that I need

 

Like I already said for every person it is diffrent, One can live with the fact of not associating with guru, and learning from their lectures!! And then you have the category I belong to,the category that needs guidence from guru..

 

And diksa is important do not get me wrong, but having a bond, relationship with your spiritual father is more important for me diksa is confirming the bond that you already have.

 

I will never ever leave Iskcon, As It was our most beloved founder acharya who always kept me going, His books, his teachings. are the most precious gems anyone can have.

 

Thank you all devotees whom I did not mention, I really value your opinon, I am just a baby, and want to learn from all of you. Where would one be without devotees???

ys

Varsana

[Guest guest]

 

Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Maharaja conversation, Murwillumbah, Australia: Feb.12, 2002 (morning):

 

“Therefore, in his service to Radhika, for rati-keli-siddhyai, a guru cannot serve in his male form. Srila Swami Maharaja and my Gurudeva are both serving there in their female forms as gopis. In that realm my Gurudeva is Vinoda Manjari, Srila Prabhupada Bhaktisiddanta Sarasvati Thakura is Nayana Manjari, Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura is Kamala Manjari, Srila Jiva Gosvami is Vilasa Manjari, Srila Rupa Gosvami is Rupa Manjari, and Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami is Rati Manjari. These manjaris can serve Radha-Krishna Conjugal.”

 

Sripad Dhrstadyumna dasa: “And our Srila Prabhupada?”

 

Srila Narayana Maharaja: “If you fully surrender, by body, mind, words and ego, then I may tell you. Otherwise, I will not. I know who he is, but you do not know. None of the ISKCON leaders know. Your Prabhupada has cheated them all, in the sense that he has not revealed himself to them at all.’’

 

Sorry yo divert from the topic, but how does Sri Narayan Maharaj Know the spiritual identity of Sri, Parbhupada, Bhakthi vinoda, Bhakthi Sidhanta Saraswati etc???? I onece met a devotee of Sri Narayan Maharaj, who told me that he know his own spritual identity???? Being a follower of Sri Vaishnavaism/ramanuja i find all this intruiging.

Jai Sri Krishna

[Puru_Das]

 

Sorry yo divert from the topic, but how does Sri Narayan Maharaj Know the spiritual identity of Sri, Parbhupada, Bhakthi vinoda, Bhakthi Sidhanta Saraswati etc???? I onece met a devotee of Sri Narayan Maharaj, who told me that he know his own spritual identity???? Being a follower of Sri Vaishnavaism/ramanuja i find all this intruiging.

Jai Sri Krishna

If you require you can confirm a portion of SBVNM's statement in a book called

Sri Gaura Ganoddesha Dipika

[The Shining Lamp on the Associates of Sri Gaura]

by Kavi Karnapura

http://bvml.org/SCM/sggd.html

This is a unique work of Kavi Karnapura, describing the other-worldly identities of the prominent associates and followers of Sri Caitanya, who are understood to have descended with Him from Goloka, the Acme of spiritual abodes.

215. This book was written in the year 1498 of the Saka era (corresponding to 1576 A.D.). I pray that those great devotees whose minds are immersed in the nectar of Lord Caitanyacandra's pastimes may read this book critically and correct all its faults.

180. Sri Rupa-manjari, who had been famous in Vrndavana-dhama, appeared as Srila Rupa Gosvami.

181. Rupa-manjari's closest friend, who was known by the names Rati-manjari and Lavanga-manjari, appeared as Srila Sanatana Gosvami, who was honored by everyone, and who was considered to be like an extension of the transcendental body of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Sanatana Kumara, the jewel among the sages, entered the body of Sanatana Gosvami, who is therefore also considered to be an incarnation of Sanatana Kumara.

182. Sivananda Cakravarti, who lived in Vrndavana, is also considered to be an incarnation of Srimati Lavanga-manjari.

184. Ananga-manjari appeared as Srila Gopala Bhatta Gosvami. Some say that Gopala Bhatta Gosvami was actually the incarnation of Sri Guna-manjari.

185. Raga-manjari appeared as Srila Raghunatha bhatta Gosvami, who lived in a cottage by the shore of Radha-kunda.

186. Srila Raghunatha dasa Gosvami was the incarnation of Rasa-manjari. Some say that Raghunatha das Gosvami was the incarnation of Rati-manjari, and others say he was the incarnation of Bhanumati-devi.

187. Bhugarbha Thakura was the incarnation of Prema-manjari. Lokanatha Gosvami was the incarnation of Lila-manjari. 188. The vraja-gopis Kalavati-devi, Rasollasa-devi, and Gunatunga-devi, who sang the songs composed by Visakha-devi, later appeared as Govinda, Madhavananda, and Vasudeva respectively. . . "

Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura revealed his transcendental identity in two of his books, Sri Navadvipa-bhava-taranga and Gita Mala. I was told that one of SBSST's disciples declared his guru's manjari identity and that SBSST confirmed the information as well during his nara lila The Deities of Radha and Krsna installed at SBSST's birth site in Jagannatha Puri, are named Sri Sri Radha Nayana Mani. The pujari there told me that in addition to pointing to SBSST's svarupa that Thakurji's name also means the dark portion of the pupil of Sri Krsna's eye in which the reflection of Srimati Radhika can be seen. .

Srila Prabhupada (HDGACBSP)never made any public declaration as to his eternal svarupa, though some believe he revealed it to Srila Gour Govinda Maharaja in Bhubanesara in l976-77, during his last visit there. If you can accept SBVNM as a sad-guru and an acarya then it is not inconceivable to believe he would know the manjari identities of predecessor acaryas by direct realization and understanding of his own eternal transcendental connection to them,otherwise not.

Clear from his statement that the svarupa of an acarya cannot be understood by his disciples cheaply, and only those who are qualified to realize it by the strength of their own sadhana, bhajana and adhikara and ultimately the mercy of Sri Guru and Gauranga can actually understand and digest such information.