Lakshmi Puja update(new creation)

October 13, 2003

It's alright. My skin is getting tougher the more I chat with people

here and witness all the dramatics. Kind of funny how serious we can

all be, taking sides, indulging in sibling rivalry, placing ourselves

on crucifixes - all the drama is interesting to witness over

different view's of God.

Nothing is taken personally. I still think you are exeptionally

thoughtful, sincere and I appreciate your honesty.

Jai Ma. Namaste,

Kelly

chris kirner <chriskirner1956 > wrote:

Dear Kelly,

Please forgive me. I did not intend to belittle your experience.

ChrisKelly Leeper <blissnout > wrote:

Chris,

To understand me is to know me. However I know not many here truely

understand me because they don't know me or my experience. Truely

there is no side to be taken here.

When God becomes the pimp and the Devotee a prositite then you have

what is called a co-dependant relationship as me and Brian have

discussed previously on the post if anyone remembers. Even my PGuru

has told me this.

To make assumptions that any devotee has not experienced Guru in it's

truest sense is plainly an assumption. Just because a person has

different experience doesn't mean they are living thru the ego and

Just because a person can speak in pretty poetic prose and use alot

of big words doesn't mean they are enlightened. We can make alot of

assumptions about devotee's but they are assumptions. I think it's

important to speak for ourselves and in your case Chris, speak for

yourself. Same for Jesse.... If you need a PGuru to get there then

that is how it will work for you.

To go into the details of my Physical Guru and my relationship and the

conversations we have had regarding my experiences and his validation

of what I have experienced is not neccessary. I think too often

devotee's assume that just because a person is on the path and ask

questions, that they have not had high experiences - There is a weird

belief that people who have high experiences have to know scripture

without reading it and all of a sudden know the whole sanskrit

language and all that. My Physical Guru knows what I have

experienced and he was upset that I didn't renounce the world to work

his cause, deeply upset that I didn't do it. Renouncing in outer form

is not my dharma right now and I don't think that is the only

expression of a person who has had experience with high states of

consciousness. To think that only people from the East experience

God directly is misthinking and to think the only true Guru's are

from the East is again,

misthinking.

I know some devotee's who will run after anyone eastern because they

assume they are knowers of Brahman. When I have been told by some of

these people directly, they are NOT knowers of Brahman BUT they will

let the devotee's think that becuase ultimately, it's the devotee's

experience that matters. If they see Guru in a half realized person,

then Guru will come thru that person for them. If the devotee is near

a Knower of Brahman, if they don't have the awareness or will to

surrender they won't 'get it' anyway. The responsibility lies with

the devotee and if the devotee 'gets it' then you can blame Ma or

Guru or God that it was their grace depending on the state of mind or

bhava at the moment.

To assume the only way a person can experience God is to have a PGuru

is not true. That is closed minded. Guru works in so many different

ways and this little piece of the pie we call a physical teacher is

only part of the puzzle and not the largest. When Buddha went on his

journey he learned from many people doing sadhana's. Were these

individuals he learned from enlightened? Nope. Guru was leading him

thru himself the whole time thru other individuals, but not ONE

person. My Guru initiated my on Buddha's birthday and it's been very

telling of how I approach my path and have in the past. All my

teachers were valid, but if they were enlightened or not, who cares.

The responsibilty lies with the devotee and their willingness to open

and see and experience the Divine. I have not been disappointed as

God/Maa works thru the Knowers of Brahman and those who are not

Knowers of Brahman. If I see Guru in these

people, plants, or higher beings, then I am the lucky one.

I am not a begger of God although I will place my self LOW for God so

that grace can come. To think the only reason why one does not

follow the normal expectation of how a 'good disciple' should be as

being Ego, its a quick and easy answer, but it's not based in Truth

either. Sounds like a good defence mechanism to justify codependance

with Guru and the transmission coming from a source outside of the

Devotee. There is nothing outside of you Folks. This is my

expierience - yes experience!

So for all these lovely and sincere devotee's all around the world, in

the jungles, in cities, in their homes, who have not had the

transference you are looking for and speaking of, their expeirence is

invalid eh? You question God's decision because it didn't 'fit' into

your mold of what things should 'look like'. Like I said before,

don't get stuck in appearances. Spiritual Materialism has never been

more rampant. The Ego loves spiritual materialism as it hides behind

it to Appear to be more than what it is. My path has always been

S i m p l e. Me and Maa and Maa coming thru the teachers. It's

nothing I'm seeking validation from superstitious people.

Now, on the flip side, there is nothing wrong with transmission from a

teacher if the teacher gives that to the student unconditionally.

What I see in most cases is the human element of the PGuru expecting

the disciple to give him their life - a very conditional love. I

will give you more transmission if you this or if you that. (pimping)

GOD does not work that way. That is conditional, that is the Ego and

from what I have seen, is a power trip do maipulate the devotee into

believing they have to appear how the Guru wants them to in order to

get grace. It's popular to get transmissions these days. We have

people with very low self esteme's running to get a transmission.

Once they get it they think they 'Have It' and then they flaunt it

like it's a possession and gives them some kind of credential to

stick on their website, like this transmission is going to attract

followers?

The only transmission I am interested in is one that comes from God

directly. If the Guru transmits it unconditionally, then they are

real. What a person does with it is up to them. And to all the

devotee's out there who have not had 'The Holy Transmission' keep

your faith, be simple and love God. Pay no attention to those who

are selling something.

Namaste,

Kelly

chris kirner <chriskirner1956 > wrote:

Dearest Kelly,

Please don't feel I'm ganging-up on you, but I'm afraid I have to

largely agree with Jesse this time.

Astraea was right when she said this is a very complex topic. I think

a lot of the problem with mutual understanding in this issue is the

same as I think Brian was having in his earlier discussions on the

psychology of spiritual living; it's a question of levels.

We all know we are Sat, Chit, Ananda. On that level, we are

all-knowing, all-powerful, ever blissful. The difficulty is that as

much as we cling to the idea of our true nature, we don't experience

ourselves that way (only in the most limited sense). In the same way

we imagine all the objects and attributes in creation to be ours by

right (and they are), but again, we find, when push comes to shove,

that we can't access them (or, again, only in a limited way).

Pandit Tigunait gave this example once, and I liked it: The Advaitan

may travel around the world giving lectures on the reality of our

nature as pure consciousness, but he still has to board a plane to

get to his next lecture.

Swami Rama used to write that a person first has parents who feed,

protect, and raise him; then he has teachers who teach him how to

live in the world, but after that comes the gurudeva, who introduces

him to himself. He also used to write that the purpose of the

external guru is to lead you to the guru within. Yet Swamiji was very

devoted to his gurudeva, by all accounts, and continued to be guided

by him, despite his own advanced state, until he dropped his body

(and likely after).

It is my belief that the Guru Gita is actually addressing the

universal gurudeva. This is not to exclude the individual gurudeva,

but rather points again to the problem of levels. Guru is everywhere,

but so is consciousness. If we can't access consciousness at the

highest levels, what makes us think we can access the universal

gurudeva? To do so we need an individual gurudeva.

Knowledge is available to anyone with the ability to retrieve it (or

so I am given to understand). How many of us would attempt to

practice medicine through attunement rather than go to a medical

school? Just so, to learn the path of spiritual knowledge we should

go to a gurudeva. The spiritual path is at least as difficult and

complex as medicine.

The gurudeva is part of the natural order. The child who is without a

family is called an orphan, and may grow-up wounded at heart. The

spiritual aspirant without a gurudeva often wanders aimlessly amongst

the shallows, never venturing out into the depths. Only the gurudeva

can lead the student through the veils of fear and confusion for he

has gone before and knows the way.

The gurudeva isn't alone. She is one in a long chain of guides

stretching back to the beginning. She is a custodian of the stream of

knowledge that flows from that source in its subtle form as shakti. In

bestowing diksha, she bestows that shakti.

The grace of god is said to flow equally to all. Some are able to

accept it, some are not. According to Pandit Tigunait, once an

aspirant is initiated the forces of nature, the various shaktis,

recognize him. Mantras become potent, with their innate shaktis

responding to the flow of shakti from the tradition, manifesting

through the student. Having been initiated yourself, you should

recognize this.

It is true that some rise to great heights without a gurudeva. In the

Christian tradition there have always been saints who did not (or at

least seemed not to) have a gurudeva. Many however, became unbalanced

from their practices, and their superstitions, hallucinating all

manner of demons and other things. Many other Christian monks, I

believe, simply didn't get very far because they lacked the necessary

guidance and spiritual force.

Particularly in the path of bhakti, one can get by without a gurudeva.

There are many sages, I think, whose duty and joy it is to help such

people (as I have been) in secret. Still, I think their help is

limited by the capacities of the aspirant, who may not be able to

perceive or fully utilize aid given on a subtle level. But, though

one may be able to get by without a gurudeva, I must ask...why? The

only answer can be ego.

Only someone with an agenda rooted in egotism would choose to struggle

in relative isolation, risking failure, when the presence of the

gurudeva in one's life makes the path so much easier, clearer, and

surer.

I know you have a beloved gurudeva. I know you have been blessed and

know the value of your spiritual guide. In our culture there is a

strong current of individualism despite the fact that we rely on

others for everything. The idea that our relationship with God is

ours alone, achieved alone, and maintained alone, is extreme. The

gurudeva is as important to our spiritual development as parents and

teachers are to our life in the world. The sat guru is a force of

nature. The Divine Teacher in human form. Jai Gurudeva!

Chris

Kelly Leeper <blissnout > wrote:

Jesse,

Without the blessings of a teacher what path is there? Surely you

didn't mean that. There are those that are without a direct teacher

who are divinly guided and they are not as rare as you think.

However in realizing how the mind works, if a Teacher for you is the

only way to be on a Path, then that is what will work for you.

I mean this in the nicest of ways, but that statement would only be

true for you or those who have bought into the idea that they are

separate and lost without a teacher which can be a crutch and a

fetter. Where is your faith in humanity and Oneness? Does that only

come with the package of a teacher? Doesn't that go against the

teachings? From my experience, we are more connected than you think

to what is divine or what that statement proclaims.

Jesse, we ARE the path and when one 'gets that' they aren't looking

for a transmission to come from another unless they see Guru thru

another and that doesn't even have to be a person. To rely on a

transmission of a teacher is likened to a prostitute going to her

pimp for her sustanance. That is not what God intended. I'm not

saying that transmissions are invalid or that Guru is not neccessary

or that Guru is a pimp, what I am saying is that the Initiatory

process is so much more than what you envision.

I pray for you to open your mind and heart. Maybe that is not what

you meant, but surely that is not the Will of the divine Mother in

more cases than not.

Namste,

KellyJesse Arana <jessearana (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

Namaste Swamiji,

The Lalitopakhyanam translation came from www.dattapeetham.org. I am not sure how it was manifested.

I didn't mean that Sri Vidya was the only way. I meant that if a

student wants to pursue direct sadhanas of a particular path, they

need a teacher. Otherwise the student is bound to approach the path

under the influence of the three Gunas and their individual vasanas

and karmas. The worst being the notion of separate self. Since we are

trapped in that vasana, we turn our sadhana into mental conception.

The initiatory process, in which we receive a direct spiritual

transmission is what frees us of that.

Without the blessings of the teacher what path is there?

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

Saradananda

[saradananda (AT) yoga-vidya (DOT) de] Saturday, October 11, 2003

11:11 AMSubject: Re: Re:

Lakshmi Puja update(new creation)

OM Hrim Maha Lakshmai NamahLoving greetings - and many thanks for

sending the beautiful Lalitopakhyana. One question: at the top of the

document, it says "Avadhoota Datta Peetam - Mysore". Is this a

transcript of a series of talks that someone gave? or a direct

translation of the scripture?I also appreciated your comments on the

oneness of Lakshmi, Durga and Saraswati. However, I wouldn't agree

"the only way to understand that oneness is to be initiated into Sri

Vidya, or a similar spiritual transmission." All paths of yoga -

bhakti yoga, raja yoga, jnana yoga, karma yoga and even hatha yoga -

have as their goal the understanding (experience) of Oneness. These

different paths of yoga are suited for different people with

different personalities - each offers techniques to experience the

Oneness. And each of them works, if practiced diligently.

with OM and Prem

Swami Saradananda

www.FlyingMountainYoga.org/2004yatra/southindiayatra2004.html

-

Jesse Arana

Saturday, October 11, 2003 8:52 AM

RE: Re: Lakshmi Puja update(new creation)

Namaste,

Lakshmi, Durga, and Saraswati are one. Navaratri is the celebration of

that oneness. As far as I know, the only way to understand that

oneness is to be initiated into Sri Vidya, or a similar spiritual

transmission. In the Sri Vidya transmission of my Guru, Karunamayi,

the Jewel of the Three (Worlds) is known as Lalita Tripurasundari.

Lakshmi, Saraswati, and Durga are several of Her primary expansions.

Durga and Kali are considered the one, as well. However, Lakshmi also

has a Warrior aspect, as she is the slayer of Kholasura. Lalita

Tripurasundari takes birth as Lakshmi when She creates all the

universes, as is told about in the Lalitopakhyana (attached).

One important reason to contemplate the three is their relationship to

the three Gunas. Saraswati is the wife of Brahma, so she rules the

power of transcendent wisdom in Raja Guna. Durga is the wife of

Shiva, and she rules the transcendent power to transform Tamo Guna.

And Lakshmi is the wife of Vishnu... ruling the Sattva Guna. So

yogically, it's important to invite each goddess to transform your

mind, which is a slave to the three Gunas, and bound by the

interactions of subtle karmas.

There is a lot more. Most important is to understand that neither of

these Goddesses can be realized without direct spiritual

transmission.

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

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October 13, 2003

Chris,

Excellent & informative post!

Astraea

, chris kirner

<chriskirner1956> wrote:

> jesuisdurga,

>

> Hi.

>

> This is a very good question, and very interesting. I have read

various things about this topic in a variety of places, but only bits

and pieces.

>

> In Tantra, the devis are the supreme creator. In Shaivism, Shiva is

supreme. In Vaishnava, Vishnu is supreme. In reality all of these are

One undivided consciousness. The supreme is beyond qualities such as

gender and name.

>

> The supreme has two aspects, nirguna (without qualities), and

saguna (with qualities). The supreme is known as Brahman (though

Tara, Mahakali, Mahalakshmi, Mahasariswati, Tripurasundari, etc, are

also Brahman). Nirguna Brahman is without qualities of any kind, but

it is generally accepted that Brahman possesses sat, chit, ananda, or

being, conscious, and bliss as attributes. Saguna Brahman possesses

such qualities as gender, name, appearance, etc. so that she can be

approached by the unenlightened. But these qualities are said to in

no manner affect or diminish his unqualified state of existence.

>

> You are Brahman. This is a fundamental supposition of spiritual

practice. Your Self, your Atman, your soul is no different than

Brahman. You are the individual wave to the vast sea, recognizable,

but inseparable.

>

> Saguna Brahman as Mahakali is inseparable from nirguna Brahman, is

inseparable from Tara, is inseparable from Shree, from Kali, from

Savitri, from Chandra, from...from...from...from me, from you.

>

> Yet the superficial qualities of the devas and devis do differ,

especially as they approach nature (hierarchically). Just as nature

is highly differentiated, the deities who inhabit and control nature

gain more distinct personalities. Interestingly, it is said that a

yogi who attains a certain level of attainment (I forget now exactly

which level) but not the highest, will become one of the gods, be

absorbed into Nature, until it is time for him to be reborn. Also

interesting, is that the Gods are said to be jealous of any yogi who

approaches enlightenment, afraid their position as a god will be

supplanted (but I'll bet there's more to it than that).

>

> Just as you will one day know yourself to be Brahman (by whatever

name--or none at all) and yet still go by the name Jesuisdurga, still

retaining the same body, the same family, the same home, the same job

(you get the idea), so do the devas and devis know their true Self

and yet retain their unique characteristics and perform their duties.

>

> Chris

>

> jesuisdurga <jesuisdurga> wrote:

> Thank you Jesse !

>

> If everything is really one , I wonder why there are so many Gods

> and Goddesses in the Hindu Pantheon ( 30 million if I am

> correct ) ...

>

> Do these Gods and Goddesses 'really' exist on some other plane ?

>

> I fell in love with Durga when I saw a statue of her when I was in

> college and took an interest in her ever since.

>

> , "Jesse Arana" <jessearana@c...>

> wrote:

> > Namaste,

> >

> > Lakshmi, Durga, and Saraswati are one. Navaratri is the

celebration

> of

> > that oneness. As far as I know, the only way to understand that

> oneness

> > is to be initiated into Sri Vidya, or a similar spiritual

> transmission.

> > In the Sri Vidya transmission of my Guru, Karunamayi, the Jewel

of

> the

> > Three (Worlds) is known as Lalita Tripurasundari. Lakshmi,

> Saraswati,

> > and Durga are several of Her primary expansions.

> >

> > Durga and Kali are considered the one, as well. However, Lakshmi

> also

> > has a Warrior aspect, as she is the slayer of Kholasura. Lalita

> > Tripurasundari takes birth as Lakshmi when She creates all the

> > universes, as is told about in the Lalitopakhyana (attached).

> >

> > One important reason to contemplate the three is their

relationship

> to

> > the three Gunas. Saraswati is the wife of Brahma, so she rules

the

> power

> > of transcendent wisdom in Raja Guna. Durga is the wife of Shiva,

> and she

> > rules the transcendent power to transform Tamo Guna. And Lakshmi

is

> the

> > wife of Vishnu... ruling the Sattva Guna. So yogically, it's

> important

> > to invite each goddess to transform your mind, which is a slave

to

> the

> > three Gunas, and bound by the interactions of subtle karmas.

> >

> > There is a lot more. Most important is to understand that neither

of

> > these Goddesses can be realized without direct spiritual

> transmission.

> >

> > Jesse Arana (Kailash)

> > www.meditationinfocus.com

> >

> > jesuisdurga [jesuisdurga]

> > Saturday, October 11, 2003 2:12 AM

> >

> > Re: Lakshmi Puja update(new creation)

> >

> > Can someone explain what is special about Laksmi or Sarasvati - I

> bow

> > to all Gods and Goddesses - but quite honestly I think they dont

> have

> > the dash of Durga or the sheer power or Kali.

> >

> > Durga Mata Ki Jai !

> >

> > , "rudran2" <stechiekov>

> wrote:

> > > I too had a good time doing Laksmi Puja yesterday twice. I

wrote

> > down

> > > stuff on my note to Devi and at least one of them seems to be

> > already

> > > well underway. This shows that Laksmi moves her pujaries toward

> the

> > > fulfillment of their goals not unlike an arrow moving rapidly

> > through

> > > the air. Persistance on our own part helps too. I am not sure

> what

> > > the Goddess has to do, but I certainly most continue my

> practices.

> > >

> > > , "nandu_108" <n_mallan>

> > wrote:

> > > > I wrote down my goals and gave it to Mother Lakshmi. Now I am

> all

> > > set

> > > > to recieve Her blessing in this new creation of Hers, even if

> She

> > > > doesn't give me what I want, She has to give me something,

> since

> > I

> > > > have asked for Her guidance and help. My Pranams to everyone!

> >

> > Sponsor

> >

>

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October 13, 2003

Kelly,

I agree that a physical Guru is not necessary in every case. Chris

recognizes that this as a possibility too. His post was not an attack

on you.

You make a good point that there are phoney spiritual teachers who

sell spiritual transmissions and have a destructive hold on their

devotees. This reminds me of devotees who are afraid to express an

opinion unless they first find out what the Guru thinks.

Your, "We have people with very low self-esteem running to get a

transmission. Once they get it they think they 'Have It' and then

they flaunt it like it's a possession...." made me laugh! It's true,

I've run into some really strange devotees (not in this group), who

because they had been given "Shaktipat" were insufferably stuck-up

to "outsiders", as if they belonged to a superior class of people

with "superior" karma. Incredible!

Astraea

, Kelly Leeper <blissnout>

wrote:

> Chris,

>

> To understand me is to know me. However I know not many here

truely understand me because they don't know me or my experience.

Truely there is no side to be taken here.

>

> When God becomes the pimp and the Devotee a prositite then you have

what is called a co-dependant relationship as me and Brian have

discussed previously on the post if anyone remembers. Even my PGuru

has told me this.

>

> To make assumptions that any devotee has not experienced Guru in

it's truest sense is plainly an assumption. Just because a person

has different experience doesn't mean they are living thru the ego

and Just because a person can speak in pretty poetic prose and use

alot of big words doesn't mean they are enlightened. We can make

alot of assumptions about devotee's but they are assumptions. I

think it's important to speak for ourselves and in your case Chris,

speak for yourself. Same for Jesse.... If you need a PGuru to get

there then that is how it will work for you.

>

> To go into the details of my Physical Guru and my relationship and

the conversations we have had regarding my experiences and his

validation of what I have experienced is not neccessary. I think too

often devotee's assume that just because a person is on the path and

ask questions, that they have not had high experiences - There is a

weird belief that people who have high experiences have to know

scripture without reading it and all of a sudden know the whole

sanskrit language and all that. My Physical Guru knows what I have

experienced and he was upset that I didn't renounce the world to work

his cause, deeply upset that I didn't do it. Renouncing in outer

form is not my dharma right now and I don't think that is the only

expression of a person who has had experience with high states of

consciousness. To think that only people from the East experience

God directly is misthinking and to think the only true Guru's are

from the East is again, misthinking.

>

> I know some devotee's who will run after anyone eastern because

they assume they are knowers of Brahman. When I have been told by

some of these people directly, they are NOT knowers of Brahman BUT

they will let the devotee's think that becuase ultimately, it's the

devotee's experience that matters. If they see Guru in a half

realized person, then Guru will come thru that person for them. If

the devotee is near a Knower of Brahman, if they don't have the

awareness or will to surrender they won't 'get it' anyway. The

responsibility lies with the devotee and if the devotee 'gets it'

then you can blame Ma or Guru or God that it was their grace

depending on the state of mind or bhava at the moment.

>

> To assume the only way a person can experience God is to have a

PGuru is not true. That is closed minded. Guru works in so many

different ways and this little piece of the pie we call a physical

teacher is only part of the puzzle and not the largest. When Buddha

went on his journey he learned from many people doing sadhana's.

Were these individuals he learned from enlightened? Nope. Guru was

leading him thru himself the whole time thru other individuals, but

not ONE person. My Guru initiated my on Buddha's birthday and it's

been very telling of how I approach my path and have in the past.

All my teachers were valid, but if they were enlightened or not, who

cares. The responsibilty lies with the devotee and their willingness

to open and see and experience the Divine. I have not been

disappointed as God/Maa works thru the Knowers of Brahman and those

who are not Knowers of Brahman. If I see Guru in these people,

plants, or higher beings, then I am the lucky one.

>

> I am not a begger of God although I will place my self LOW for God

so that grace can come. To think the only reason why one does not

follow the normal expectation of how a 'good disciple' should be as

being Ego, its a quick and easy answer, but it's not based in Truth

either. Sounds like a good defence mechanism to justify codependance

with Guru and the transmission coming from a source outside of the

Devotee. There is nothing outside of you Folks. This is my

expierience - yes experience!

>

> So for all these lovely and sincere devotee's all around the world,

in the jungles, in cities, in their homes, who have not had the

transference you are looking for and speaking of, their expeirence is

invalid eh? You question God's decision because it didn't 'fit' into

your mold of what things should 'look like'. Like I said before,

don't get stuck in appearances. Spiritual Materialism has never been

more rampant. The Ego loves spiritual materialism as it hides behind

it to Appear to be more than what it is. My path has always

been S i m p l e. Me and Maa and Maa coming thru the teachers.

It's nothing I'm seeking validation from superstitious people.

>

> Now, on the flip side, there is nothing wrong with transmission

from a teacher if the teacher gives that to the student

unconditionally. What I see in most cases is the human element of

the PGuru expecting the disciple to give him their life - a very

conditional love. I will give you more transmission if you this or

if you that. (pimping) GOD does not work that way. That is

conditional, that is the Ego and from what I have seen, is a power

trip do maipulate the devotee into believing they have to appear how

the Guru wants them to in order to get grace. It's popular to get

transmissions these days. We have people with very low self esteme's

running to get a transmission. Once they get it they think

they 'Have It' and then they flaunt it like it's a possession and

gives them some kind of credential to stick on their website, like

this transmission is going to attract followers?

>

> The only transmission I am interested in is one that comes from God

directly. If the Guru transmits it unconditionally, then they are

real. What a person does with it is up to them. And to all the

devotee's out there who have not had 'The Holy Transmission' keep

your faith, be simple and love God. Pay no attention to those who

are selling something.

>

> Namaste,

> Kelly

October 13, 2003

Thank you.