Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

[Guest guest]

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the

same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov.

 

According to our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in

eveery tradition, in every country around the world. And they have

all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.

[Guest guest]

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the

[Guest guest]

Thank you for you imput. I know you most likely weren't following

previous posts, so there was alot of discussion on transmission and

mantra and sadhana. Most people like to give refrence to those of

the major religions, not neccessarily spiritual traditions, but

religions. There are sub traditions. In my experience in

Christianity, there was no mantra, no transmission, no Guru, just

alot of rules, guilt and punishment. After studying Christian

Mystism, much more came front and saw that there was a huge jewish

influence especially in the Kabbalah which does do mantra in hebrew,

but not neccessarily repetitive like japa. However my question was

basically to get people thinking outside of the mantra/physical Guru

box where a transmission or mantra is the Key and thinking one must

have that in order to reach the highest. It's my understanding those

who became enlightened in the west did so in solitude with themselves

and God alone. (along

with brothers and sisters helpers)

 

Am I wrong?

KellySarada <sarada_saraswati > wrote:

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the

 

The New with improved product search

[Guest guest]

That is what it is, the main reason we are on a path in the first place.

Namaste,

Kellymahamuni <mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote:

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the

 

The New with improved product search

[Guest guest]

Interesting words but not an answer. So in your view there is an end?

How can infinity have an end? Maybe this is a better way to phrase

the question.

-

Kelly Leeper

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 9:23 PM

Re: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Illumination, enlightenment, Liberation, Brahmanjnani, nirvikalpi samadhi.

That is what it is, the main reason we are on a path in the first place.

Namaste,

Kellymahamuni <mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote:

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the

The New with improved product search

To from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the

[Guest guest]

Also I thought if this forum was to be changed to one where the

dialogue was more direct with Shree Maa and Swamiji. We answer Their

questions, and They and only They answer ours. It is Their Wisdom I

am seeking in this forum.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Kelly Leeper

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 9:23 PM

Re: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Illumination, enlightenment, Liberation, Brahmanjnani, nirvikalpi samadhi.

That is what it is, the main reason we are on a path in the first place.

Namaste,

Kellymahamuni <mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote:

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the

The New with improved product search

To from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the

[Guest guest]

Namaste Surya,

I will do my best here...

The first part of the word, "En" - comes from the Sanskrit word

Antara, which means "Inner." English comes from Sanskrit, and so the

word "Enter" is a direct cognate of "Antara".

The second part of the word, "Light" - is from Old English loet... but

that is from Greek lukhnos, lamp. That is from Sanskrit, "lok" as a

verb, it is lokate, to look, view, contemplate; perceive, know.

That's also where we get the word, loka, or, "that which can be

seen," i.e., "world."

The last part, is from the Sanskrit root "Man" which means, think,

believe, imagine; consider. The Latin, mente, English, mind. Also

Sanskrit "Mantr" to advise. "Ment(e)" it has also been noted as

"frame of mind."

So, Illuminated Frame of Mind (Light Within Mind).

When we talk about enlightenment from the Hindu and Buddhist

perspective, the original word was Budh, the Sanskrit word, to know.

There is also the root, Jna, wisdom. The Greek word Gnosis, was

derived from that root.

I also cannot find usage of the English word enlightenment before the 1700s.

As to what "Enlightenment" means...why not ask Shree Maa?

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

mahamuni [mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net]

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 8:50 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the

[Guest guest]

Namaste, Kelly...

I can't wait to hear Swamiji's explanation. I thought about it too,

and here is what I understand in the case of Christianity:

In Christianity, Jesus is the Guru, and Grace is transmitted through

the Holy Spirit. Most mystics in the Christian tradition have

sadhanas and initiations, and both living mentors, and departed

mentors, who embody for them the teaching of Christ. In early

Christianity, the Gurus were older monks and nuns living in the

desert. Later, as the Church became Apostolic, the Gurus were

embodied in the Popes and Orthodox Archbishops. As these

functionaries mixed their devotion with worldly desire, the Saints

became the true Gurus, acting as intermediaries for the common

devotee. This continues to the present day.

The transmissions of Grace begin at baptism, and end at Last Rites.

Whether we dispute the efficacy of these rituals is not the point.

They do exist, and are an open door for a ripe soul. The mantras of

the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are in Greek and Latin. Only

recently do we find the rich history of the Christian mantra to have

been obscured. Protestantism changed the face of Christianity, by

reducing the ritual life of the Christian.

The Mass is the repetition of the Sacrifice of Christ, and similar to

the Homa. It is both re-initiatory, purificatory, and transcendent

(being imbued with the Holy Spirit). The Eucharist is indeed, as I

have experienced directly, the Body of Christ, and is an "upaya" or

method for directly contacting Him. There are two other aspects to

the Eucharist itself. It is present as prasad. Also, there is an

amazing and powerful ancient tradition of Contemplating the Eucharist

- just sitting in heartfelt contemplation of the Eucharist, and this

is practiced in monasteries today.

What I am expressing is that whether you or I recognize the presence

of Guru in the Western tradition, or not... He is there. Those who

make the most progress often do in fact have a teacher, and are in

fact linked via initiation to a tradition.

One might ask, where are all the enlightened Christians today?

First, if you compare the currently expressed aims of Christianity

today, enlightenment is not one of them. Secondly, the lineage has

been broken over time and it's very hard to experience a pure

philosophical view, since the early view of the Church was

politicized at inception (Nicea). Thirdly, intercession via Mary and

the Saints has been broadly disenfranchised since the middle ages.

Lastly, the mantra body of the Church, such as the Our Father,

Psalms, etc., has been vibrationally reduced by the omission of key

spiritually potent words. Amen is the last surviving form of pure

vibration (AUM, AMEEN, etc), and therefore they are missing out on

awakening their subtle bodies and purifying karma through pure

mantra.

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

Kelly Leeper

[blissnout ] Wednesday, October 15, 2003 12:21

AMSubject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Swami,

Thank you for you imput. I know you most likely weren't following

previous posts, so there was alot of discussion on transmission and

mantra and sadhana. Most people like to give refrence to those of

the major religions, not neccessarily spiritual traditions, but

religions. There are sub traditions. In my experience in

Christianity, there was no mantra, no transmission, no Guru, just

alot of rules, guilt and punishment. After studying Christian

Mystism, much more came front and saw that there was a huge jewish

influence especially in the Kabbalah which does do mantra in hebrew,

but not neccessarily repetitive like japa. However my question was

basically to get people thinking outside of the mantra/physical Guru

box where a transmission or mantra is the Key and thinking one must

have that in order to reach the highest. It's my understanding those

who became enlightened in the west did so in solitude with themselves

and God alone. (along with brothers and sisters helpers)

Am I wrong?

KellySarada <sarada_saraswati > wrote:

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the

The New with improved product search

To from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the

[Guest guest]

Jesse,

I too have used this word for decades. I have gone into a deeper

examination of these things in the last few years. These types of

words create all kinds of preconceptions for Westerners and modern

Easterners alike. Outside of Gurus that teach here in the West or

taught middle class and up Westerners in India, I have never heard a

traditional Indian sadhu use any term like this. Many times this

word is used in translation of what a Saint said, but that is not a

proper defense of its usage as translation brings in a host of

problems.

Also English absolutely does not come from Sanskrit. I don't know

where you are getting your etymology from. Similiar sounds and words

in seperate languages should not be approached in this type of format.

I did pose the question for Shree Maa and Swamiji. It is their answer

that I was seeking and this is again what I thought this forum was

for.

The problem is the West here has been a victim of import so to speak.

This is a very long subject for discussion so I won't really touch

upon it here. Westerners classify things. We are taught to do this

from early childhood in school. In the West, Science is God so to

speak and that is why we are always trying to explain phenonema

scientifically. We impose our Western Discourse onto the Eastern

Mystical Traditions. That is why there is so much talk of

enlightened Guru vs non enlightened Guru, and what state of

consciousness one resides in, etc, etc. This is a very big subject

matter that causes a Western born and trained mind great anguish to

face. It took me years to come to terms with this and many trips to

India to straighten it out. You should try reading some of Michel

Foucault. Start with The Order of Things and possibly The Primacy of

Perception.

I mean how many Westerners do you know that even bother to learn an

Indian language. Wouldn't a real disciple learn the Mother Tongue of

his/her Guru? Just out of respect, if nothing else? This is the

perfect example of the Western person's arrogance. We want to have

the darshan of a sadhu hiding away from the world like Bamakhepa or

Sombari Baba, but if they appeared to us what would we have to say?

What would be our reason for disturbing them? What would we hope to

gain? Would we arrogantly expect them to speak English to us? Do

you see what I am driving at?

Think about it.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Jesse Arana

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 11:34 PM

RE: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Namaste Surya,

I will do my best here...

The first part of the word, "En" - comes from the Sanskrit word

Antara, which means "Inner." English comes from Sanskrit, and so the

word "Enter" is a direct cognate of "Antara".

The second part of the word, "Light" - is from Old English loet... but

that is from Greek lukhnos, lamp. That is from Sanskrit, "lok" as a

verb, it is lokate, to look, view, contemplate; perceive, know.

That's also where we get the word, loka, or, "that which can be

seen," i.e., "world."

The last part, is from the Sanskrit root "Man" which means, think,

believe, imagine; consider. The Latin, mente, English, mind. Also

Sanskrit "Mantr" to advise. "Ment(e)" it has also been noted as

"frame of mind."

So, Illuminated Frame of Mind (Light Within Mind).

When we talk about enlightenment from the Hindu and Buddhist

perspective, the original word was Budh, the Sanskrit word, to know.

There is also the root, Jna, wisdom. The Greek word Gnosis, was

derived from that root.

I also cannot find usage of the English word enlightenment before the 1700s.

As to what "Enlightenment" means...why not ask Shree Maa?

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

mahamuni [mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net]

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 8:50 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the

[Guest guest]

Jesse,

Excellent!

 

Astraea

 

, "Jesse Arana" <jessearana@c...>

wrote:

> Namaste Surya,

>

> I will do my best here...

>

> The first part of the word, "En" - comes from the Sanskrit word

Antara,

> which means "Inner." English comes from Sanskrit, and so the word

> "Enter" is a direct cognate of "Antara".

>

> The second part of the word, "Light" - is from Old English loet...

but

> that is from Greek lukhnos, lamp. That is from Sanskrit, "lok" as a

> verb, it is lokate, to look, view, contemplate; perceive, know.

That's

> also where we get the word, loka, or, "that which can be seen,"

i.e.,

> "world."

>

> The last part, is from the Sanskrit root "Man" which means, think,

> believe, imagine; consider. The Latin, mente, English, mind. Also

> Sanskrit "Mantr" to advise. "Ment(e)" it has also been noted

as "frame

> of mind."

>

> So, Illuminated Frame of Mind (Light Within Mind).

>

> When we talk about enlightenment from the Hindu and Buddhist

> perspective, the original word was Budh, the Sanskrit word, to know.

> There is also the root, Jna, wisdom. The Greek word Gnosis, was

derived

> from that root.

>

> I also cannot find usage of the English word enlightenment before

the

> 1700s.

>

> As to what "Enlightenment" means...why not ask Shree Maa?

>

>

> Jesse Arana (Kailash)

> www.meditationinfocus.com

>

>

>

>

> mahamuni [mahamuni@c...]

> Tuesday, October 14, 2003 8:50 PM

>

> Re: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question

about

> western enlightened beings

>

>

> This prompts a question:

>

> What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term

> that has been thrown around here in the West starting with Madame

> Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and followed

by the

> Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

>

> Pranams,

>

> Surya

[Guest guest]

Namaste Mahamuni,

English is a Germanic Language of the Indo-European Family.

Please see the tree at

http://www.ethnologue.com//show_family.asp?subid=738, and note that

Indo-European roots provide Germanic, and hence English phonemes.

Also see... http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_indoeuro.html for the

major Indo-European branches.

Some examples of Sanskrit Roots which exist in English today:

Smri, Smarati - "to remember" > Smart

Has, Hasati - "to laugh" > Ha Ha Ha

Gau, "cow" > Cow

Nau, "boat" > Navy

Nam, Namati, "to name, to honor" > Name

Phal, Phalam "fruit" > Note the Ph sound turns to F

Mastaka, "head" > Masticate - "chew"

As for the existence of the idea, Enlighten, see the Gayatri mantra -

which gives the prescription (this is a linguistic breakdown):

Tat (that)

Bhargaha (radiance)

Devasya (of the Gods... Div meaning "to shine" > Deva + asya (Ablative termination "of")

Nah (our)

Diyah (Minds - Samdhi'd to Dhiyo),

Prachodayat (Optative, "may illumine")

So the concept of Enlighten is as old as Savitri, Surya, Agni.

Please forgive my arrogant and worthless opinions, and cross-check my

facts. I am afraid, due to my extreme bad karma and deluded mind, I

might believe myself to know what I am talking about. I am only

trying to share with you what my Sanskrit teacher taught me.

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

mahamuni [mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net]

Wednesday, October 15, 2003 1:03 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Jesse,

I too have used this word for decades. I have gone into a deeper

examination of these things in the last few years. These types of

words create all kinds of preconceptions for Westerners and modern

Easterners alike. Outside of Gurus that teach here in the West or

taught middle class and up Westerners in India, I have never heard a

traditional Indian sadhu use any term like this. Many times this

word is used in translation of what a Saint said, but that is not a

proper defense of its usage as translation brings in a host of

problems.

Also English absolutely does not come from Sanskrit. I don't know

where you are getting your etymology from. Similiar sounds and words

in seperate languages should not be approached in this type of format.

I did pose the question for Shree Maa and Swamiji. It is their answer

that I was seeking and this is again what I thought this forum was

for.

The problem is the West here has been a victim of import so to speak.

This is a very long subject for discussion so I won't really touch

upon it here. Westerners classify things. We are taught to do this

from early childhood in school. In the West, Science is God so to

speak and that is why we are always trying to explain phenonema

scientifically. We impose our Western Discourse onto the Eastern

Mystical Traditions. That is why there is so much talk of

enlightened Guru vs non enlightened Guru, and what state of

consciousness one resides in, etc, etc. This is a very big subject

matter that causes a Western born and trained mind great anguish to

face. It took me years to come to terms with this and many trips to

India to straighten it out. You should try reading some of Michel

Foucault. Start with The Order of Things and possibly The Primacy of

Perception.

I mean how many Westerners do you know that even bother to learn an

Indian language. Wouldn't a real disciple learn the Mother Tongue of

his/her Guru? Just out of respect, if nothing else? This is the

perfect example of the Western person's arrogance. We want to have

the darshan of a sadhu hiding away from the world like Bamakhepa or

Sombari Baba, but if they appeared to us what would we have to say?

What would be our reason for disturbing them? What would we hope to

gain? Would we arrogantly expect them to speak English to us? Do

you see what I am driving at?

Think about it.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Jesse Arana

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 11:34 PM

RE: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Namaste Surya,

I will do my best here...

The first part of the word, "En" - comes from the Sanskrit word

Antara, which means "Inner." English comes from Sanskrit, and so the

word "Enter" is a direct cognate of "Antara".

The second part of the word, "Light" - is from Old English loet... but

that is from Greek lukhnos, lamp. That is from Sanskrit, "lok" as a

verb, it is lokate, to look, view, contemplate; perceive, know.

That's also where we get the word, loka, or, "that which can be

seen," i.e., "world."

The last part, is from the Sanskrit root "Man" which means, think,

believe, imagine; consider. The Latin, mente, English, mind. Also

Sanskrit "Mantr" to advise. "Ment(e)" it has also been noted as

"frame of mind."

So, Illuminated Frame of Mind (Light Within Mind).

When we talk about enlightenment from the Hindu and Buddhist

perspective, the original word was Budh, the Sanskrit word, to know.

There is also the root, Jna, wisdom. The Greek word Gnosis, was

derived from that root.

I also cannot find usage of the English word enlightenment before the 1700s.

As to what "Enlightenment" means...why not ask Shree Maa?

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

mahamuni [mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net]

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 8:50 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the

[Guest guest]

While both are Indo European languages, they are from totally

different families. See these links:

http://www.putlearningfirst.com/language/01origin/tree.html

http://www.uni-kassel.de/fb8/misc/lfb/html/text/3.html

There was another better chart but I can't find it right now.

I researched this because of some similiarities I found between Hebrew

and Sanskrit. They too are from different families.

Personally I think Sanskrit came from somewhere else and is a "Divine"

language that is based upon other principles.

Also this would bring up another argument: Did they Aryan invasion

actually take place or is it a myth. Some very interesting material

on this and I have had the pleasure of in depth personal discussions

with some very knowledgable people based in Indian Mystical

Traditions on this.

As far as your translations go, translations are never really correct

and the problem of different discourses arise again.

I was not stating that you personally were arrogant. I was touching

upon a general concept that I have seen in my 20+ years of studying

Indian culture and mystical traditions as well as other mystical

traditions.

Swamiji mentions some of these same points but in a slightly different

way. The way Traditions are approached in the East are very different

than they are understood here in the West--the land of weekend

workshops and correspondence courses that may not even stem from a

proper Guru Parampara.

Got to run. I guess I should have just kept quiet. I'm just

interested in hearing Shree Maa's and Swamiji's comments on this.

Not that I mind hearing others, but I am looking for the opinions of

the True authorites and they are it. I just don't have the time to

read thru all of the other material everyone posts. I guess in the

future I will take the advice of Astrea and put Their names in the

title. I have been very fortunate to have had a few nice in depth

discussions with Them in the past when I visited Their Ashram. I

have learned a great deal since then and would love to converse

further, thought truthfully I think these sorts of things are mainly

for inspiration and encouragment to keep fighting the fight so to

speak.

Jai Maa,

Surya

-

Jesse Arana

Wednesday, October 15, 2003 12:58 PM

RE: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Namaste Mahamuni,

English is a Germanic Language of the Indo-European Family.

Please see the tree at

http://www.ethnologue.com//show_family.asp?subid=738, and note that

Indo-European roots provide Germanic, and hence English phonemes.

Also see... http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_indoeuro.html for the

major Indo-European branches.

Some examples of Sanskrit Roots which exist in English today:

Smri, Smarati - "to remember" > Smart

Has, Hasati - "to laugh" > Ha Ha Ha

Gau, "cow" > Cow

Nau, "boat" > Navy

Nam, Namati, "to name, to honor" > Name

Phal, Phalam "fruit" > Note the Ph sound turns to F

Mastaka, "head" > Masticate - "chew"

As for the existence of the idea, Enlighten, see the Gayatri mantra -

which gives the prescription (this is a linguistic breakdown):

Tat (that)

Bhargaha (radiance)

Devasya (of the Gods... Div meaning "to shine" > Deva + asya (Ablative termination "of")

Nah (our)

Diyah (Minds - Samdhi'd to Dhiyo),

Prachodayat (Optative, "may illumine")

So the concept of Enlighten is as old as Savitri, Surya, Agni.

Please forgive my arrogant and worthless opinions, and cross-check my

facts. I am afraid, due to my extreme bad karma and deluded mind, I

might believe myself to know what I am talking about. I am only

trying to share with you what my Sanskrit teacher taught me.

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

mahamuni [mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net]

Wednesday, October 15, 2003 1:03 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Jesse,

I too have used this word for decades. I have gone into a deeper

examination of these things in the last few years. These types of

words create all kinds of preconceptions for Westerners and modern

Easterners alike. Outside of Gurus that teach here in the West or

taught middle class and up Westerners in India, I have never heard a

traditional Indian sadhu use any term like this. Many times this

word is used in translation of what a Saint said, but that is not a

proper defense of its usage as translation brings in a host of

problems.

Also English absolutely does not come from Sanskrit. I don't know

where you are getting your etymology from. Similiar sounds and words

in seperate languages should not be approached in this type of format.

I did pose the question for Shree Maa and Swamiji. It is their answer

that I was seeking and this is again what I thought this forum was

for.

The problem is the West here has been a victim of import so to speak.

This is a very long subject for discussion so I won't really touch

upon it here. Westerners classify things. We are taught to do this

from early childhood in school. In the West, Science is God so to

speak and that is why we are always trying to explain phenonema

scientifically. We impose our Western Discourse onto the Eastern

Mystical Traditions. That is why there is so much talk of

enlightened Guru vs non enlightened Guru, and what state of

consciousness one resides in, etc, etc. This is a very big subject

matter that causes a Western born and trained mind great anguish to

face. It took me years to come to terms with this and many trips to

India to straighten it out. You should try reading some of Michel

Foucault. Start with The Order of Things and possibly The Primacy of

Perception.

I mean how many Westerners do you know that even bother to learn an

Indian language. Wouldn't a real disciple learn the Mother Tongue of

his/her Guru? Just out of respect, if nothing else? This is the

perfect example of the Western person's arrogance. We want to have

the darshan of a sadhu hiding away from the world like Bamakhepa or

Sombari Baba, but if they appeared to us what would we have to say?

What would be our reason for disturbing them? What would we hope to

gain? Would we arrogantly expect them to speak English to us? Do

you see what I am driving at?

Think about it.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Jesse Arana

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 11:34 PM

RE: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Namaste Surya,

I will do my best here...

The first part of the word, "En" - comes from the Sanskrit word

Antara, which means "Inner." English comes from Sanskrit, and so the

word "Enter" is a direct cognate of "Antara".

The second part of the word, "Light" - is from Old English loet... but

that is from Greek lukhnos, lamp. That is from Sanskrit, "lok" as a

verb, it is lokate, to look, view, contemplate; perceive, know.

That's also where we get the word, loka, or, "that which can be

seen," i.e., "world."

The last part, is from the Sanskrit root "Man" which means, think,

believe, imagine; consider. The Latin, mente, English, mind. Also

Sanskrit "Mantr" to advise. "Ment(e)" it has also been noted as

"frame of mind."

So, Illuminated Frame of Mind (Light Within Mind).

When we talk about enlightenment from the Hindu and Buddhist

perspective, the original word was Budh, the Sanskrit word, to know.

There is also the root, Jna, wisdom. The Greek word Gnosis, was

derived from that root.

I also cannot find usage of the English word enlightenment before the 1700s.

As to what "Enlightenment" means...why not ask Shree Maa?

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

mahamuni [mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net]

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 8:50 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the

[Guest guest]

On one of my previous posts, I mentioned if the Brahmanjnani thinks

that Liberation is the end-all/be-all, he is mistaken. To some of my

friends, N.Samadhi is just the beginning. Many people think

liberation is the end of the path (goal-achievment), but I don't

think so.

It depends on who you discourse with. For example, my Guru thinks

liberation is the main thing to acheive in this lifetime, for him

Liberation would be his goal. Where it goes after that for him, I

don't know, but he is my Guru and we talk about that.

So, no there is no end. I don't think I ever said that. Jai Ma.

Namste,Kellymahamuni <mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote:

Interesting words but not an answer. So in your view there is an end?

How can infinity have an end? Maybe this is a better way to phrase

the question.

-

Kelly Leeper

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 9:23 PM

Re: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Illumination, enlightenment, Liberation, Brahmanjnani, nirvikalpi samadhi.

That is what it is, the main reason we are on a path in the first place.

Namaste,

Kellymahamuni <mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote:

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the

The New with improved product search

To from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the

 

The New with improved product search

[Guest guest]

I'm sure if Swami needs to jump in and correct people, he will do

that. I have faith that Swami will intercept when needed.

Is satsang only with the physical Guru and not the devotee? I didn't

know it was one way or one sided? Arent we trying to get out of this

box and expectation?

Sorry you are disappointed that your not seeing Wisdom anywhere...really, that is a shame.

Jai Ma,

Kellymahamuni <mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote:

Also I thought if this forum was to be changed to one where the

dialogue was more direct with Shree Maa and Swamiji. We answer Their

questions, and They and only They answer ours. It is Their Wisdom I

am seeking in this forum.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Kelly Leeper

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 9:23 PM

Re: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Illumination, enlightenment, Liberation, Brahmanjnani, nirvikalpi samadhi.

That is what it is, the main reason we are on a path in the first place.

Namaste,

Kellymahamuni <mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote:

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the

The New with improved product search

To from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the

 

The New with improved product search

[Guest guest]

Good post. Yes, I wonder too, where are all the enlightened

Christians today. I'm sure there are some-there's got to be,

although I don't think they are your normal Christians as in what we

find on TV or Church but with my mind (Why not?). I don't think one

has to be famous in order to be enlightened though. I don't think

they are all in monestaries or convents either. The way the world

has evolved, most mystics who are either enlightened or close to that

may not even care to be in a monestary, instead could be a hermit on

their own.

My first Guru/teacher of the western mysteries and my current Guru

both have discussed that after illumination, if the devotee's karma

is to stay in the world, it is not always easy and they may

eventually, with time, become 'coated' again. Hense the need for

sadhana even after that experience. Who knows who has had samadhi

and who hasn't? Sometimes you can never know. She can give an

experience and then veil it again if She wants. Ma gave Ramakrishna

and other avatars Her Shakti to use and I think for others, it's not

given. So I think these people are like the hermits in the forest or

villiage as the weird lady or man. It could be the bag lady or the

bum. Who's to say? It could Mahamuni?? It could be you... It could

be Brian...but I don't think they will always be wearing the garb.

Your right on the vibrations of the hebrew. My first teacher taught

us hebrew for the purpose of intonation and vibration and yes, it

works very well. The vibration manifests so much that one feels like

they can cut it with a knife- it's so real, very tangible energy

when done correctly.

Nice conversation...! Namaste,

Kelly

Jesse Arana <jessearana (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

Namaste, Kelly...

I can't wait to hear Swamiji's explanation. I thought about it too,

and here is what I understand in the case of Christianity:

In Christianity, Jesus is the Guru, and Grace is transmitted through

the Holy Spirit. Most mystics in the Christian tradition have

sadhanas and initiations, and both living mentors, and departed

mentors, who embody for them the teaching of Christ. In early

Christianity, the Gurus were older monks and nuns living in the

desert. Later, as the Church became Apostolic, the Gurus were

embodied in the Popes and Orthodox Archbishops. As these

functionaries mixed their devotion with worldly desire, the Saints

became the true Gurus, acting as intermediaries for the common

devotee. This continues to the present day.

The transmissions of Grace begin at baptism, and end at Last Rites.

Whether we dispute the efficacy of these rituals is not the point.

They do exist, and are an open door for a ripe soul. The mantras of

the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are in Greek and Latin. Only

recently do we find the rich history of the Christian mantra to have

been obscured. Protestantism changed the face of Christianity, by

reducing the ritual life of the Christian.

The Mass is the repetition of the Sacrifice of Christ, and similar to

the Homa. It is both re-initiatory, purificatory, and transcendent

(being imbued with the Holy Spirit). The Eucharist is indeed, as I

have experienced directly, the Body of Christ, and is an "upaya" or

method for directly contacting Him. There are two other aspects to

the Eucharist itself. It is present as prasad. Also, there is an

amazing and powerful ancient tradition of Contemplating the Eucharist

- just sitting in heartfelt contemplation of the Eucharist, and this

is practiced in monasteries today.

What I am expressing is that whether you or I recognize the presence

of Guru in the Western tradition, or not... He is there. Those who

make the most progress often do in fact have a teacher, and are in

fact linked via initiation to a tradition.

One might ask, where are all the enlightened Christians today?

First, if you compare the currently expressed aims of Christianity

today, enlightenment is not one of them. Secondly, the lineage has

been broken over time and it's very hard to experience a pure

philosophical view, since the early view of the Church was

politicized at inception (Nicea). Thirdly, intercession via Mary and

the Saints has been broadly disenfranchised since the middle ages.

Lastly, the mantra body of the Church, such as the Our Father,

Psalms, etc., has been vibrationally reduced by the omission of key

spiritually potent words. Amen is the last surviving form of pure

vibration (AUM, AMEEN, etc), and therefore they are missing out on

awakening their subtle bodies and purifying karma through pure

mantra.

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

Kelly Leeper

[blissnout ] Wednesday, October 15, 2003 12:21

AMSubject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Swami,

Thank you for you imput. I know you most likely weren't following

previous posts, so there was alot of discussion on transmission and

mantra and sadhana. Most people like to give refrence to those of

the major religions, not neccessarily spiritual traditions, but

religions. There are sub traditions. In my experience in

Christianity, there was no mantra, no transmission, no Guru, just

alot of rules, guilt and punishment. After studying Christian

Mystism, much more came front and saw that there was a huge jewish

influence especially in the Kabbalah which does do mantra in hebrew,

but not neccessarily repetitive like japa. However my question was

basically to get people thinking outside of the mantra/physical Guru

box where a transmission or mantra is the Key and thinking one must

have that in order to reach the highest. It's my understanding those

who became enlightened in the west did so in solitude with themselves

and God alone. (along

with brothers and sisters helpers)

Am I wrong?

KellySarada <sarada_saraswati > wrote:

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the

The New with improved product search

To from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the

 

The New with improved product search

[Guest guest]

The more I read, the more I like:) Thank you for your explanation. I

think it's always a good thing to speak with confidence.

Mahamuni,

Are you hanging in there? Come on.. you can join in again.... If I can... YOU CAN...

Jesse and I at first had it out, but I think we're getting to know

eachother... you know - satsang....

I enjoy all of this, even the passion. We're all learning about

ourselves arent we? We can actually look back at our emails and say,

"Did I say that??" and become more aware..

Namste,

KellyJesse Arana <jessearana (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote:

Namaste Mahamuni,

English is a Germanic Language of the Indo-European Family.

Please see the tree at

http://www.ethnologue.com//show_family.asp?subid=738, and note that

Indo-European roots provide Germanic, and hence English phonemes.

Also see... http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_indoeuro.html for the

major Indo-European branches.

Some examples of Sanskrit Roots which exist in English today:

Smri, Smarati - "to remember" > Smart

Has, Hasati - "to laugh" > Ha Ha Ha

Gau, "cow" > Cow

Nau, "boat" > Navy

Nam, Namati, "to name, to honor" > Name

Phal, Phalam "fruit" > Note the Ph sound turns to F

Mastaka, "head" > Masticate - "chew"

As for the existence of the idea, Enlighten, see the Gayatri mantra -

which gives the prescription (this is a linguistic breakdown):

Tat (that)

Bhargaha (radiance)

Devasya (of the Gods... Div meaning "to shine" > Deva + asya (Ablative termination "of")

Nah (our)

Diyah (Minds - Samdhi'd to Dhiyo),

Prachodayat (Optative, "may illumine")

So the concept of Enlighten is as old as Savitri, Surya, Agni.

Please forgive my arrogant and worthless opinions, and cross-check my

facts. I am afraid, due to my extreme bad karma and deluded mind, I

might believe myself to know what I am talking about. I am only

trying to share with you what my Sanskrit teacher taught me.

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

mahamuni [mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net]

Wednesday, October 15, 2003 1:03 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Jesse,

I too have used this word for decades. I have gone into a deeper

examination of these things in the last few years. These types of

words create all kinds of preconceptions for Westerners and modern

Easterners alike. Outside of Gurus that teach here in the West or

taught middle class and up Westerners in India, I have never heard a

traditional Indian sadhu use any term like this. Many times this

word is used in translation of what a Saint said, but that is not a

proper defense of its usage as translation brings in a host of

problems.

Also English absolutely does not come from Sanskrit. I don't know

where you are getting your etymology from. Similiar sounds and words

in seperate languages should not be approached in this type of format.

I did pose the question for Shree Maa and Swamiji. It is their answer

that I was seeking and this is again what I thought this forum was

for.

The problem is the West here has been a victim of import so to speak.

This is a very long subject for discussion so I won't really touch

upon it here. Westerners classify things. We are taught to do this

from early childhood in school. In the West, Science is God so to

speak and that is why we are always trying to explain phenonema

scientifically. We impose our Western Discourse onto the Eastern

Mystical Traditions. That is why there is so much talk of

enlightened Guru vs non enlightened Guru, and what state of

consciousness one resides in, etc, etc. This is a very big subject

matter that causes a Western born and trained mind great anguish to

face. It took me years to come to terms with this and many trips to

India to straighten it out. You should try reading some of Michel

Foucault. Start with The Order of Things and possibly The Primacy of

Perception.

I mean how many Westerners do you know that even bother to learn an

Indian language. Wouldn't a real disciple learn the Mother Tongue of

his/her Guru? Just out of respect, if nothing else? This is the

perfect example of the Western person's arrogance. We want to have

the darshan of a sadhu hiding away from the world like Bamakhepa or

Sombari Baba, but if they appeared to us what would we have to say?

What would be our reason for disturbing them? What would we hope to

gain? Would we arrogantly expect them to speak English to us? Do

you see what I am driving at?

Think about it.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Jesse Arana

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 11:34 PM

RE: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Namaste Surya,

I will do my best here...

The first part of the word, "En" - comes from the Sanskrit word

Antara, which means "Inner." English comes from Sanskrit, and so the

word "Enter" is a direct cognate of "Antara".

The second part of the word, "Light" - is from Old English loet... but

that is from Greek lukhnos, lamp. That is from Sanskrit, "lok" as a

verb, it is lokate, to look, view, contemplate; perceive, know.

That's also where we get the word, loka, or, "that which can be

seen," i.e., "world."

The last part, is from the Sanskrit root "Man" which means, think,

believe, imagine; consider. The Latin, mente, English, mind. Also

Sanskrit "Mantr" to advise. "Ment(e)" it has also been noted as

"frame of mind."

So, Illuminated Frame of Mind (Light Within Mind).

When we talk about enlightenment from the Hindu and Buddhist

perspective, the original word was Budh, the Sanskrit word, to know.

There is also the root, Jna, wisdom. The Greek word Gnosis, was

derived from that root.

I also cannot find usage of the English word enlightenment before the 1700s.

As to what "Enlightenment" means...why not ask Shree Maa?

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

mahamuni [mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net]

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 8:50 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of is

subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the

 

The New with improved product search

[Guest guest]

One last thing for reason of context:

I'm a Westerner and again I was commenting specifically on a specific

subject matter. I think some may have missed this entirely.

No one was commenting on whether what Westerners come up with

eclectically, including things from various Indian traditions, was

good or bad, whether beneficial or not. No one could argue that

there is some type of benefit from taking asana classes at a "Yoga"

studio. My comments were specific, as are David Frawley's, as are my

sadhu friend Rampuri's.

-

Jesse Arana

Wednesday, October 15, 2003 12:58 PM

RE: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Namaste Mahamuni,

English is a Germanic Language of the Indo-European Family.

Please see the tree at

http://www.ethnologue.com//show_family.asp?subid=738, and note that

Indo-European roots provide Germanic, and hence English phonemes.

Also see... http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_indoeuro.html for the

major Indo-European branches.

Some examples of Sanskrit Roots which exist in English today:

Smri, Smarati - "to remember" > Smart

Has, Hasati - "to laugh" > Ha Ha Ha

Gau, "cow" > Cow

Nau, "boat" > Navy

Nam, Namati, "to name, to honor" > Name

Phal, Phalam "fruit" > Note the Ph sound turns to F

Mastaka, "head" > Masticate - "chew"

As for the existence of the idea, Enlighten, see the Gayatri mantra -

which gives the prescription (this is a linguistic breakdown):

Tat (that)

Bhargaha (radiance)

Devasya (of the Gods... Div meaning "to shine" > Deva + asya (Ablative termination "of")

Nah (our)

Diyah (Minds - Samdhi'd to Dhiyo),

Prachodayat (Optative, "may illumine")

So the concept of Enlighten is as old as Savitri, Surya, Agni.

Please forgive my arrogant and worthless opinions, and cross-check my

facts. I am afraid, due to my extreme bad karma and deluded mind, I

might believe myself to know what I am talking about. I am only

trying to share with you what my Sanskrit teacher taught me.

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

mahamuni [mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net]

Wednesday, October 15, 2003 1:03 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Jesse,

I too have used this word for decades. I have gone into a deeper

examination of these things in the last few years. These types of

words create all kinds of preconceptions for Westerners and modern

Easterners alike. Outside of Gurus that teach here in the West or

taught middle class and up Westerners in India, I have never heard a

traditional Indian sadhu use any term like this. Many times this

word is used in translation of what a Saint said, but that is not a

proper defense of its usage as translation brings in a host of

problems.

Also English absolutely does not come from Sanskrit. I don't know

where you are getting your etymology from. Similiar sounds and words

in seperate languages should not be approached in this type of format.

I did pose the question for Shree Maa and Swamiji. It is their answer

that I was seeking and this is again what I thought this forum was

for.

The problem is the West here has been a victim of import so to speak.

This is a very long subject for discussion so I won't really touch

upon it here. Westerners classify things. We are taught to do this

from early childhood in school. In the West, Science is God so to

speak and that is why we are always trying to explain phenonema

scientifically. We impose our Western Discourse onto the Eastern

Mystical Traditions. That is why there is so much talk of

enlightened Guru vs non enlightened Guru, and what state of

consciousness one resides in, etc, etc. This is a very big subject

matter that causes a Western born and trained mind great anguish to

face. It took me years to come to terms with this and many trips to

India to straighten it out. You should try reading some of Michel

Foucault. Start with The Order of Things and possibly The Primacy of

Perception.

I mean how many Westerners do you know that even bother to learn an

Indian language. Wouldn't a real disciple learn the Mother Tongue of

his/her Guru? Just out of respect, if nothing else? This is the

perfect example of the Western person's arrogance. We want to have

the darshan of a sadhu hiding away from the world like Bamakhepa or

Sombari Baba, but if they appeared to us what would we have to say?

What would be our reason for disturbing them? What would we hope to

gain? Would we arrogantly expect them to speak English to us? Do

you see what I am driving at?

Think about it.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Jesse Arana

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 11:34 PM

RE: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Namaste Surya,

I will do my best here...

The first part of the word, "En" - comes from the Sanskrit word

Antara, which means "Inner." English comes from Sanskrit, and so the

word "Enter" is a direct cognate of "Antara".

The second part of the word, "Light" - is from Old English loet... but

that is from Greek lukhnos, lamp. That is from Sanskrit, "lok" as a

verb, it is lokate, to look, view, contemplate; perceive, know.

That's also where we get the word, loka, or, "that which can be

seen," i.e., "world."

The last part, is from the Sanskrit root "Man" which means, think,

believe, imagine; consider. The Latin, mente, English, mind. Also

Sanskrit "Mantr" to advise. "Ment(e)" it has also been noted as

"frame of mind."

So, Illuminated Frame of Mind (Light Within Mind).

When we talk about enlightenment from the Hindu and Buddhist

perspective, the original word was Budh, the Sanskrit word, to know.

There is also the root, Jna, wisdom. The Greek word Gnosis, was

derived from that root.

I also cannot find usage of the English word enlightenment before the 1700s.

As to what "Enlightenment" means...why not ask Shree Maa?

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

mahamuni [mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net]

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 8:50 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

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