Mahamuni to Jesse

[Guest guest]

Did I hear you making a classification of Westerners Vs. Easterners?

According to your categorization of people, it appears as though you

might be Western.

I would never feel shame coming across an enlightened yogi (pardon me,

I'm western and used the word enlightenment) Is it neccessary to carry

around shame to be a good disciple? Is that what these Gurus and

Yogis are for, for us to be put to shame because we 'appear'

different and don't know their language? I never met Babaji but in

my dreams and he speaks English to me. When I see Ramakrishna in my

dreams, he speaks Bengali, but I still get the message. When the

yogi is realized, there wont be one ounce of danger in his aura that

would make an onlooker shamed. Book learning is fine and dandy, but

common sense and a direct relationship to God goes much further.

I going to put this conversation to bed, because it's silly. Both the

east and west are trying their darndest to learn from eachother and if

the East doesn't think they have anything to learn here, then who's

arrogant?mahamuni <mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote:

Jesse,

I too have used this word for decades. I have gone into a deeper

examination of these things in the last few years. These types of

words create all kinds of preconceptions for Westerners and modern

Easterners alike. Outside of Gurus that teach here in the West or

taught middle class and up Westerners in India, I have never heard a

traditional Indian sadhu use any term like this. Many times this

word is used in translation of what a Saint said, but that is not a

proper defense of its usage as translation brings in a host of

problems.

Also English absolutely does not come from Sanskrit. I don't know

where you are getting your etymology from. Similiar sounds and words

in seperate languages should not be approached in this type of format.

I did pose the question for Shree Maa and Swamiji. It is their answer

that I was seeking and this is again what I thought this forum was

for.

The problem is the West here has been a victim of import so to speak.

This is a very long subject for discussion so I won't really touch

upon it here. Westerners classify things. We are taught to do this

from early childhood in school. In the West, Science is God so to

speak and that is why we are always trying to explain phenonema

scientifically. We impose our Western Discourse onto the Eastern

Mystical Traditions. That is why there is so much talk of

enlightened Guru vs non enlightened Guru, and what state of

consciousness one resides in, etc, etc. This is a very big subject

matter that causes a Western born and trained mind great anguish to

face. It took me years to come to terms with this and many trips to

India to straighten it out. You should try reading some of Michel

Foucault. Start with The Order of Things and possibly The Primacy of

Perception.

I mean how many Westerners do you know that even bother to learn an

Indian language. Wouldn't a real disciple learn the Mother Tongue of

his/her Guru? Just out of respect, if nothing else? This is the

perfect example of the Western person's arrogance. We want to have

the darshan of a sadhu hiding away from the world like Bamakhepa or

Sombari Baba, but if they appeared to us what would we have to say?

What would be our reason for disturbing them? What would we hope to

gain? Would we arrogantly expect them to speak English to us? Do

you see what I am driving at?

Think about it.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Jesse Arana

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 11:34 PM

RE: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Namaste Surya,

I will do my best here...

The first part of the word, "En" - comes from the Sanskrit word

Antara, which means "Inner." English comes from Sanskrit, and so the

word "Enter" is a direct cognate of "Antara".

The second part of the word, "Light" - is from Old English loet... but

that is from Greek lukhnos, lamp. That is from Sanskrit, "lok" as a

verb, it is lokate, to look, view, contemplate; perceive, know.

That's also where we get the word, loka, or, "that which can be

seen," i.e., "world."

The last part, is from the Sanskrit root "Man" which means, think,

believe, imagine; consider. The Latin, mente, English, mind. Also

Sanskrit "Mantr" to advise. "Ment(e)" it has also been noted as

"frame of mind."

So, Illuminated Frame of Mind (Light Within Mind).

When we talk about enlightenment from the Hindu and Buddhist

perspective, the original word was Budh, the Sanskrit word, to know.

There is also the root, Jna, wisdom. The Greek word Gnosis, was

derived from that root.

I also cannot find usage of the English word enlightenment before the 1700s.

As to what "Enlightenment" means...why not ask Shree Maa?

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

mahamuni [mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net]

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 8:50 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of is

subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the

 

The New with improved product search

[Guest guest]

That wasn't my point but that is okay. I think my last postings that

should come up soon will give more clarification as to what I was

getting at.

-

Kelly Leeper

Wednesday, October 15, 2003 11:24 PM

Mahamuni to Jesse

Mahamuni,

Did I hear you making a classification of Westerners Vs. Easterners?

According to your categorization of people, it appears as though you

might be Western.

I would never feel shame coming across an enlightened yogi (pardon me,

I'm western and used the word enlightenment) Is it neccessary to carry

around shame to be a good disciple? Is that what these Gurus and

Yogis are for, for us to be put to shame because we 'appear'

different and don't know their language? I never met Babaji but in

my dreams and he speaks English to me. When I see Ramakrishna in my

dreams, he speaks Bengali, but I still get the message. When the

yogi is realized, there wont be one ounce of danger in his aura that

would make an onlooker shamed. Book learning is fine and dandy, but

common sense and a direct relationship to God goes much further.

I going to put this conversation to bed, because it's silly. Both the

east and west are trying their darndest to learn from eachother and if

the East doesn't think they have anything to learn here, then who's

arrogant?mahamuni <mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote:

Jesse,

I too have used this word for decades. I have gone into a deeper

examination of these things in the last few years. These types of

words create all kinds of preconceptions for Westerners and modern

Easterners alike. Outside of Gurus that teach here in the West or

taught middle class and up Westerners in India, I have never heard a

traditional Indian sadhu use any term like this. Many times this

word is used in translation of what a Saint said, but that is not a

proper defense of its usage as translation brings in a host of

problems.

Also English absolutely does not come from Sanskrit. I don't know

where you are getting your etymology from. Similiar sounds and words

in seperate languages should not be approached in this type of format.

I did pose the question for Shree Maa and Swamiji. It is their answer

that I was seeking and this is again what I thought this forum was

for.

The problem is the West here has been a victim of import so to speak.

This is a very long subject for discussion so I won't really touch

upon it here. Westerners classify things. We are taught to do this

from early childhood in school. In the West, Science is God so to

speak and that is why we are always trying to explain phenonema

scientifically. We impose our Western Discourse onto the Eastern

Mystical Traditions. That is why there is so much talk of

enlightened Guru vs non enlightened Guru, and what state of

consciousness one resides in, etc, etc. This is a very big subject

matter that causes a Western born and trained mind great anguish to

face. It took me years to come to terms with this and many trips to

India to straighten it out. You should try reading some of Michel

Foucault. Start with The Order of Things and possibly The Primacy of

Perception.

I mean how many Westerners do you know that even bother to learn an

Indian language. Wouldn't a real disciple learn the Mother Tongue of

his/her Guru? Just out of respect, if nothing else? This is the

perfect example of the Western person's arrogance. We want to have

the darshan of a sadhu hiding away from the world like Bamakhepa or

Sombari Baba, but if they appeared to us what would we have to say?

What would be our reason for disturbing them? What would we hope to

gain? Would we arrogantly expect them to speak English to us? Do

you see what I am driving at?

Think about it.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Jesse Arana

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 11:34 PM

RE: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Namaste Surya,

I will do my best here...

The first part of the word, "En" - comes from the Sanskrit word

Antara, which means "Inner." English comes from Sanskrit, and so the

word "Enter" is a direct cognate of "Antara".

The second part of the word, "Light" - is from Old English loet... but

that is from Greek lukhnos, lamp. That is from Sanskrit, "lok" as a

verb, it is lokate, to look, view, contemplate; perceive, know.

That's also where we get the word, loka, or, "that which can be

seen," i.e., "world."

The last part, is from the Sanskrit root "Man" which means, think,

believe, imagine; consider. The Latin, mente, English, mind. Also

Sanskrit "Mantr" to advise. "Ment(e)" it has also been noted as

"frame of mind."

So, Illuminated Frame of Mind (Light Within Mind).

When we talk about enlightenment from the Hindu and Buddhist

perspective, the original word was Budh, the Sanskrit word, to know.

There is also the root, Jna, wisdom. The Greek word Gnosis, was

derived from that root.

I also cannot find usage of the English word enlightenment before the 1700s.

As to what "Enlightenment" means...why not ask Shree Maa?

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

mahamuni [mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net]

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 8:50 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the

The New with improved product search

To from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the

[Guest guest]

And hey All are learning. Gurus learn things from Their disciples

too. The Infinite is infinite.

-

Kelly Leeper

Wednesday, October 15, 2003 11:24 PM

Mahamuni to Jesse

Mahamuni,

Did I hear you making a classification of Westerners Vs. Easterners?

According to your categorization of people, it appears as though you

might be Western.

I would never feel shame coming across an enlightened yogi (pardon me,

I'm western and used the word enlightenment) Is it neccessary to carry

around shame to be a good disciple? Is that what these Gurus and

Yogis are for, for us to be put to shame because we 'appear'

different and don't know their language? I never met Babaji but in

my dreams and he speaks English to me. When I see Ramakrishna in my

dreams, he speaks Bengali, but I still get the message. When the

yogi is realized, there wont be one ounce of danger in his aura that

would make an onlooker shamed. Book learning is fine and dandy, but

common sense and a direct relationship to God goes much further.

I going to put this conversation to bed, because it's silly. Both the

east and west are trying their darndest to learn from eachother and if

the East doesn't think they have anything to learn here, then who's

arrogant?mahamuni <mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote:

Jesse,

I too have used this word for decades. I have gone into a deeper

examination of these things in the last few years. These types of

words create all kinds of preconceptions for Westerners and modern

Easterners alike. Outside of Gurus that teach here in the West or

taught middle class and up Westerners in India, I have never heard a

traditional Indian sadhu use any term like this. Many times this

word is used in translation of what a Saint said, but that is not a

proper defense of its usage as translation brings in a host of

problems.

Also English absolutely does not come from Sanskrit. I don't know

where you are getting your etymology from. Similiar sounds and words

in seperate languages should not be approached in this type of format.

I did pose the question for Shree Maa and Swamiji. It is their answer

that I was seeking and this is again what I thought this forum was

for.

The problem is the West here has been a victim of import so to speak.

This is a very long subject for discussion so I won't really touch

upon it here. Westerners classify things. We are taught to do this

from early childhood in school. In the West, Science is God so to

speak and that is why we are always trying to explain phenonema

scientifically. We impose our Western Discourse onto the Eastern

Mystical Traditions. That is why there is so much talk of

enlightened Guru vs non enlightened Guru, and what state of

consciousness one resides in, etc, etc. This is a very big subject

matter that causes a Western born and trained mind great anguish to

face. It took me years to come to terms with this and many trips to

India to straighten it out. You should try reading some of Michel

Foucault. Start with The Order of Things and possibly The Primacy of

Perception.

I mean how many Westerners do you know that even bother to learn an

Indian language. Wouldn't a real disciple learn the Mother Tongue of

his/her Guru? Just out of respect, if nothing else? This is the

perfect example of the Western person's arrogance. We want to have

the darshan of a sadhu hiding away from the world like Bamakhepa or

Sombari Baba, but if they appeared to us what would we have to say?

What would be our reason for disturbing them? What would we hope to

gain? Would we arrogantly expect them to speak English to us? Do

you see what I am driving at?

Think about it.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Jesse Arana

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 11:34 PM

RE: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Namaste Surya,

I will do my best here...

The first part of the word, "En" - comes from the Sanskrit word

Antara, which means "Inner." English comes from Sanskrit, and so the

word "Enter" is a direct cognate of "Antara".

The second part of the word, "Light" - is from Old English loet... but

that is from Greek lukhnos, lamp. That is from Sanskrit, "lok" as a

verb, it is lokate, to look, view, contemplate; perceive, know.

That's also where we get the word, loka, or, "that which can be

seen," i.e., "world."

The last part, is from the Sanskrit root "Man" which means, think,

believe, imagine; consider. The Latin, mente, English, mind. Also

Sanskrit "Mantr" to advise. "Ment(e)" it has also been noted as

"frame of mind."

So, Illuminated Frame of Mind (Light Within Mind).

When we talk about enlightenment from the Hindu and Buddhist

perspective, the original word was Budh, the Sanskrit word, to know.

There is also the root, Jna, wisdom. The Greek word Gnosis, was

derived from that root.

I also cannot find usage of the English word enlightenment before the 1700s.

As to what "Enlightenment" means...why not ask Shree Maa?

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

mahamuni [mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net]

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 8:50 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the To

from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the To from this

group, send an email to:Your

use of is subject to the

The New with improved product search

To from this group, send an email

to:Your use of

is subject to the