Mahamuni to Jessi II

October 16, 2003

i know there are authorities on Eastern Mysticism and in reading some

of the most famous, I've noticed they can be the most prejudiced

people I've noticied within Hinduism.

One thing you have to understand is that the West is not 1 weekend

workshops or coorespondant courses. I was involved with a Western

Tradition and here was the sadhana I had to do. Now, keep in mind my

teacher would scold me when he knew I

missed a morning or evening of sadhana(he knew this from his

Realization). He was the crazy Guru but KNEW. This was the Hebrew (

a very sacred language), Judeo-Christian path of the Holy Kabbalah

before it ever got popular amongst Madonna or who ever else. There

were times our rituals would go 14 days in a row 12 hours long each

day. Then we would take a 2 day break and start in again. We did

this continually and we were expected to take care of our daily

duties, go to work and family. I met some of the most dedicated

Westerners in our Order and I have found only a handful of True

Eastern practitioners who would do that type of intense sadhana. A

few on them monks at one time or another, but only a few. I'm not

saying that to toot my horn, but to inform you that you have been

misinformed for the sake of discourse by the pundits who think they

have seen it all.

I think reflecting on your extreme need to judge your world and split

everything into black and white will make you one miserable person.

I can read some of the Most Famous American Pundits and still hear

passionate anger about the West, the same kind we heard 40 years ago

about black people. That is not holy, or intelligent and quite

frankly puts a distaste in my mouth and creates more oppression. How

sincere are you Muni?

The very fact that you need to classify people and then make them

wrong is not helping you get any further to Realization, partly

because you have no compassion for your brother. Only the pundits.

Stretch yourself Mahamuni. Namaste,

Kellymahamuni <mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net> wrote:

While both are Indo European languages, they are from totally

different families. See these links:

http://www.putlearningfirst.com/language/01origin/tree.html

http://www.uni-kassel.de/fb8/misc/lfb/html/text/3.html

There was another better chart but I can't find it right now.

I researched this because of some similiarities I found between Hebrew

and Sanskrit. They too are from different families.

Personally I think Sanskrit came from somewhere else and is a "Divine"

language that is based upon other principles.

Also this would bring up another argument: Did they Aryan invasion

actually take place or is it a myth. Some very interesting material

on this and I have had the pleasure of in depth personal discussions

with some very knowledgable people based in Indian Mystical

Traditions on this.

As far as your translations go, translations are never really correct

and the problem of different discourses arise again.

I was not stating that you personally were arrogant. I was touching

upon a general concept that I have seen in my 20+ years of studying

Indian culture and mystical traditions as well as other mystical

traditions.

Swamiji mentions some of these same points but in a slightly different

way. The way Traditions are approached in the East are very different

than they are understood here in the West--the land of weekend

workshops and correspondence courses that may not even stem from a

proper Guru Parampara.

Got to run. I guess I should have just kept quiet. I'm just

interested in hearing Shree Maa's and Swamiji's comments on this.

Not that I mind hearing others, but I am looking for the opinions of

the True authorites and they are it. I just don't have the time to

read thru all of the other material everyone posts. I guess in the

future I will take the advice of Astrea and put Their names in the

title. I have been very fortunate to have had a few nice in depth

discussions with Them in the past when I visited Their Ashram. I

have learned a great deal since then and would love to converse

further, thought truthfully I think these sorts of things are mainly

for inspiration and encouragment to keep fighting the fight so to

speak.

Jai Maa,

Surya

-

Jesse Arana

Wednesday, October 15, 2003 12:58 PM

RE: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Namaste Mahamuni,

English is a Germanic Language of the Indo-European Family.

Please see the tree at

http://www.ethnologue.com//show_family.asp?subid=738, and note that

Indo-European roots provide Germanic, and hence English phonemes.

Also see... http://www.krysstal.com/langfams_indoeuro.html for the

major Indo-European branches.

Some examples of Sanskrit Roots which exist in English today:

Smri, Smarati - "to remember" > Smart

Has, Hasati - "to laugh" > Ha Ha Ha

Gau, "cow" > Cow

Nau, "boat" > Navy

Nam, Namati, "to name, to honor" > Name

Phal, Phalam "fruit" > Note the Ph sound turns to F

Mastaka, "head" > Masticate - "chew"

As for the existence of the idea, Enlighten, see the Gayatri mantra -

which gives the prescription (this is a linguistic breakdown):

Tat (that)

Bhargaha (radiance)

Devasya (of the Gods... Div meaning "to shine" > Deva + asya (Ablative termination "of")

Nah (our)

Diyah (Minds - Samdhi'd to Dhiyo),

Prachodayat (Optative, "may illumine")

So the concept of Enlighten is as old as Savitri, Surya, Agni.

Please forgive my arrogant and worthless opinions, and cross-check my

facts. I am afraid, due to my extreme bad karma and deluded mind, I

might believe myself to know what I am talking about. I am only

trying to share with you what my Sanskrit teacher taught me.

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

mahamuni [mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net]

Wednesday, October 15, 2003 1:03 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Jesse,

I too have used this word for decades. I have gone into a deeper

examination of these things in the last few years. These types of

words create all kinds of preconceptions for Westerners and modern

Easterners alike. Outside of Gurus that teach here in the West or

taught middle class and up Westerners in India, I have never heard a

traditional Indian sadhu use any term like this. Many times this

word is used in translation of what a Saint said, but that is not a

proper defense of its usage as translation brings in a host of

problems.

Also English absolutely does not come from Sanskrit. I don't know

where you are getting your etymology from. Similiar sounds and words

in seperate languages should not be approached in this type of format.

I did pose the question for Shree Maa and Swamiji. It is their answer

that I was seeking and this is again what I thought this forum was

for.

The problem is the West here has been a victim of import so to speak.

This is a very long subject for discussion so I won't really touch

upon it here. Westerners classify things. We are taught to do this

from early childhood in school. In the West, Science is God so to

speak and that is why we are always trying to explain phenonema

scientifically. We impose our Western Discourse onto the Eastern

Mystical Traditions. That is why there is so much talk of

enlightened Guru vs non enlightened Guru, and what state of

consciousness one resides in, etc, etc. This is a very big subject

matter that causes a Western born and trained mind great anguish to

face. It took me years to come to terms with this and many trips to

India to straighten it out. You should try reading some of Michel

Foucault. Start with The Order of Things and possibly The Primacy of

Perception.

I mean how many Westerners do you know that even bother to learn an

Indian language. Wouldn't a real disciple learn the Mother Tongue of

his/her Guru? Just out of respect, if nothing else? This is the

perfect example of the Western person's arrogance. We want to have

the darshan of a sadhu hiding away from the world like Bamakhepa or

Sombari Baba, but if they appeared to us what would we have to say?

What would be our reason for disturbing them? What would we hope to

gain? Would we arrogantly expect them to speak English to us? Do

you see what I am driving at?

Think about it.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Jesse Arana

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 11:34 PM

RE: Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

Namaste Surya,

I will do my best here...

The first part of the word, "En" - comes from the Sanskrit word

Antara, which means "Inner." English comes from Sanskrit, and so the

word "Enter" is a direct cognate of "Antara".

The second part of the word, "Light" - is from Old English loet... but

that is from Greek lukhnos, lamp. That is from Sanskrit, "lok" as a

verb, it is lokate, to look, view, contemplate; perceive, know.

That's also where we get the word, loka, or, "that which can be

seen," i.e., "world."

The last part, is from the Sanskrit root "Man" which means, think,

believe, imagine; consider. The Latin, mente, English, mind. Also

Sanskrit "Mantr" to advise. "Ment(e)" it has also been noted as

"frame of mind."

So, Illuminated Frame of Mind (Light Within Mind).

When we talk about enlightenment from the Hindu and Buddhist

perspective, the original word was Budh, the Sanskrit word, to know.

There is also the root, Jna, wisdom. The Greek word Gnosis, was

derived from that root.

I also cannot find usage of the English word enlightenment before the 1700s.

As to what "Enlightenment" means...why not ask Shree Maa?

Jesse Arana (Kailash)

www.meditationinfocus.com

mahamuni [mahamuni (AT) cox (DOT) net]

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 8:50 PMTo:

Subject: Re: Swamiji's

answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

This prompts a question:

What is "enlightenment"? Is it something that actually exists or a

term that has been thrown around here in the West starting with

Madame Blavatsky and Her Ascended Masters in the late 1800s and

followed by the Theophists. I can not find record of it before then.

Pranams,

Surya

-

Sarada

Tuesday, October 14, 2003 5:28 PM

Swamiji's answer to Kelly's question about western enlightened beings

First please answer, was Jesus from the east or the west? Let's ask

the same question about Mohammed and the Bal Shem Tov. According to

our philosophy, there have been enlightened beings in eveery

tradition, in every country around the world. And they have all left

behind tools by which we can pursue our own enlightenment.To

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October 16, 2003

The points about your experiences with a particular Kabbalist lineage

is something else entirely. I happen to have past experience with

that as well but that is also not the point. Though both are fruit,

we are talking about apples and oranges. While there is certain

elements of Universality in most if not all Esoteric Traditions, my

experience is that most are very specific.

Again this is not about whose better, East or West. The point was

about the different approaches that are naturally taken towards the

subject of Indian Esoteric Traditions.

If the goal we are trying to accomplish is to find out Who we really

are, to know ourselves, (Who am I), arguably the one true question to

be answered in order to gain "enlightenment", "illumination", Atmajnan

(which would also be Brahmajnan if We are Truly One with God), then

don't we need to examine ourselves and our minds openly, honestly and

minutely, or least wouldn't this be helpful. To examine our cultural

discourse that we are born in, our childhood condition that frames

much of "how" we think and approach things, will help us to gain

clarity on who we are and who we are not if its course is followed to

completion. When we see the conditioning and "hear its voice" in our

heads, then we can strive to free ourselves from it and its hold on

us. When it comes up, we can say "Aaahhh. There it is again. Isn't

that interesting". Of course for those of us so extremely devotional

that no thoughts come, that is a different matter of course. I have

found that type of person far and few between.

I want to be clear that I am not a Jnani, nor do I read much of

anything anymore. I see the Path as always encompassing a unique

amount (for each person) of Bhakti, Jnan, Karma, and Dhyan Yog.

There I am running off again. Just trying to make it clear so no

feelings are hurt and my intent is clear. As you can tell I strive

for clarity and I am striving to make the razor's edge as sharp as

possible.

Jai Maa!

-

Kelly Leeper

Wednesday, October 15, 2003 11:53 PM

Mahamuni to Jessi II

Mahamuni,