Kelly's analogy/Guru and everyone's nature

October 27, 2003

Dear Kelly,

I agree with you that the Guru knows everyone's nature and

teaches accordingly. It is also up to the disciple to decide how

much do they want to change. The disiple also has to know

beyond a shadow of a doubt who their Guru is and are they a

devotee or a disciple. In Nandu's post he referred to the student

(or devotee) who takes the teaching but doesn't necesarily

change. But a disciple takes the teachings and changes his or

her life. He or she strives to become a mirror image of the

Guru.There are thousands of gurus but few disciples. At times

the teaching may not be easy to take but the disciple continues

to have faith in the Guru and perseveres.

Maa says with faith we can jump across the ocean. Onetime

Maa told us this true story of faith. There was once a 6 year old

girl who had leprosy and she went to visit a Saint who had a

reputation for curing the ills of humanity. The little girl bowed

down to the saint and asked him if he could please cure her of

her disease. He told her to shine his puja utensils every day and

as much as the utensils shined that much she herself would

shine from inside. Everyday the little girl would shine the

utensils and everyday the untensils would shine more and more

brightly until one day the girl's leprosy disappeared.

With faith the little girl was cured. Faith will cure us of our worldly

disease and we can jump across the ocean of worldliness.

Happy driving! Hang in there even if the car seems to being

going too fast at times.

October 27, 2003

Babaji is my Guru without a doubt. Bababji is no longer in a body.

The reason the sadhana of shining the items worked was because she

had the thought in her mind that if she cleans them, she will be

healed. It's how the mind works and thru faith, she did the sadhana.

I don't have a guru in a physical body to talk to me and say, Kelly

do this or do that. Each disciple is different. The trouble is when

the Guru's teach the disciple according to their own Lens. If the

disciple needs the Guru to realate to them as a friend, Guru should.

In school, when the student is learning, the Teacher needs to find a

way for the student to learn the best. Some learn by reading, some

by lecture, some hands on. If the Teacher said, 'Have faith that you

will learn this by reading about it." and the student learned by

hearing the subject matter and the Teacher didn't teach that way...

Who's being arrogant? Is the

student at fault because of their nature? Shouldn't the teacher be

more wise to know that She may need to try different ways to uncover

how they learn? To me the ideal Guru is one who can assess what the

Disciple will need and if they are wrong, then try again a different

way. The Guru needs enough humility to know She may need to study

the disciple in order to know how to serve the Disciple. What's

important to the Guru? Being right or serving the disciple in the

way they will understand - meaning that serving is teaching. If

being Right is more important to the Guru, no true learning will ever

take place.

Remember KBBookbag? She said she learns by sight. I learn by hearing

the recitiations. If I were the Guru and I said, "KBBookbag, I'm

Guru, you obey me and learn this by listening" A world of

separtation would be created by the Guru due to lack of understanding

and insight. This would be an immature Guru who shouldn't be

teaching.

As Guru's and Teachers (we are all these at one time or another) it's

our responsibility to understand our students in order to teach them

effectively. If not, then a power struggle ensues and then the

Disciple leaves the Guru or ashram. The Guru can then say, "That

disciple didn't surrender to me because I'm right" or "That disciple

is arrogant and nothing with out what I have to teach her." Imaging

hearing this at a school. "Helen Keller is arrogant because she

can't learn the way I want to teach her" She can't learn anything I

have to give because she is Blind!". Well, it's because the Guru is

being arrogant and needs to learn from the difficult subject matter -

the student.

To assume the disciple is not a good one is abusive. It can keep the

Guru on the pedistal without any self reflection. If the Guru can't

lower himself enough to learn how this disciple will thrive in

learning, then the Guru is at fault. Was Helen Keller to be blamed

for the way she learned? Should KBBookbag be blamed because she

learns by sight rather than hearing?

This is what I mean by the nature of the disciple. If the Guru is to

be effective, the Guru should learn from the Student as well to know

how to reach the student. All disciples want to learn. A good

disciple vs bad disciple is irrelevant. Many of them have no idea

how they learn and can't even tell that to the Guru to help the Guru.

This is why for me Guru is Friend in action. A Partner. Someone who

I can be REALLY honest with.

Each stomach can handle different food. It's up to the child to say,

"Hay Mom, that doesn't agree with my stomach. I can't digest that.

Can you fix me something more blan? Thanks Mama." If the Mama

doesn't fix the food blan enough for the child, it's the mothers

fault if the child doesnt eat. This is where children learn to cook

on thier own and loose faith in the parent, when the parent doesn't

listen.

Namaste,

Kellyparvati_saraswati <parvati_saraswati > wrote:

Dear Kelly,I agree with you that the Guru knows everyone's nature and

teaches accordingly. It is also up to the disciple to decide how much

do they want to change. The disiple also has to know beyond a

shadow of a doubt who their Guru is and are they a devotee or a

disciple. In Nandu's post he referred to the student (or devotee)

who takes the teaching but doesn't necesarily change. But a

disciple takes the teachings and changes his or her life. He or she

strives to become a mirror image of the Guru.There are thousands of

gurus but few disciples. At times the teaching may not be easy to

take but the disciple continues to have faith in the Guru and

perseveres. Maa says with faith we can jump across the ocean.

Onetime Maa told us

this true story of faith. There was once a 6 year old girl who had

leprosy and she went to visit a Saint who had a reputation for

curing the ills of humanity. The little girl bowed down to the saint

and asked him if he could please cure her of her disease. He told her

to shine his puja utensils every day and as much as the utensils

shined that much she herself would shine from inside. Everyday the

little girl would shine the utensils and everyday the untensils

would shine more and more brightly until one day the girl's leprosy

disappeared.With faith the little girl was cured. Faith will cure us

of our worldly disease and we can jump across the ocean of

worldliness.Happy driving! Hang in there even if the car seems to

being going too fast at times.To from this group, send an

email to:Your use of

Groups is subject to the

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October 28, 2003

Namaste Kelly (and everyone else, of course),

I read your comments on the Guru/disciple relationship and began to

insert my experiences to see what insight I got. Here it goes:

I have always been very independent. I moved (twice) to two foreign

countries, once without knowing the language beforehand. It's all

just gossip except that it sheds a light on my independent streak.

Now I find myself under the gaze of my Gurus. This is where I have

longed to be for-ever...but...I am realizing how being independent

and "owner of my own nose" (an expression in Portuguese) can be like

sandpaper when coming in contact with the teachers.

See, they are (I believe this totally) just out here to carry us

accross the ocean of objects and relationships. We want to go, but

we want to go OUR way and be able to take a few key attachments

along for the ride.

Guru says, "No. Leave it all behind and we can go across."

We say, "But, Maa....I just...it's just...Can't I just..."

A true teacher will set up the boundaries and the rules, but only

inasmuch as it forces you to keep on track.....think braces! How

would teeth ever look perfectly straight if one did not endure a

mouth full of wire. Was the dentist doing it to enslave you?

There are many teachers out there with not-so-pure intentions. Our

job is to discriminate and when we find the true ones, we

surrender....sometimes a little at a time...kicking and

screaming...becuase the ego is so sticky and slimy and subtle.

My favorite sloka from the Guru Gita goes:

dhyanamulam gurormurtih pujamulam guroh padam

mantramulam gurorvakyam mokshamulam guroh krpa

The root of all meditation is the Guru's image.

The root of all worship is the Guru's feet.

The root of all mantras is word of the Guru.

The root of all liberation is the Guru's grace.

I bow to your Infinte Consciousness, Jai Maa,

Gauri

, Kelly Leeper <blissnout>

wrote:

> I responded to exactly what you wrote but to another devotee.

I'll send that in addendum to what you wrote, then you will

understand. I can't remember if I asked a question that would

warrant this reponse, although I might have.

>

> Babaji is my Guru without a doubt. Bababji is no longer in a

body. The reason the sadhana of shining the items worked was

because she had the thought in her mind that if she cleans them, she

will be healed. It's how the mind works and thru faith, she did the

sadhana. I don't have a guru in a physical body to talk to me and

say, Kelly do this or do that. Each disciple is different. The

trouble is when the Guru's teach the disciple according to their own

Lens. If the disciple needs the Guru to realate to them as a

friend, Guru should. In school, when the student is learning, the

Teacher needs to find a way for the student to learn the best. Some

learn by reading, some by lecture, some hands on. If the Teacher

said, 'Have faith that you will learn this by reading about it." and

the student learned by hearing the subject matter and the Teacher

didn't teach that way... Who's being arrogant? Is the student at

fault because of their nature? Shouldn't the teacher be more wise

> to know that She may need to try different ways to uncover how

they learn? To me the ideal Guru is one who can assess what the

Disciple will need and if they are wrong, then try again a different

way. The Guru needs enough humility to know She may need to study

the disciple in order to know how to serve the Disciple. What's

important to the Guru? Being right or serving the disciple in the

way they will understand - meaning that serving is teaching. If

being Right is more important to the Guru, no true learning will

ever take place.

>

> Remember KBBookbag? She said she learns by sight. I learn by

hearing the recitiations. If I were the Guru and I

said, "KBBookbag, I'm Guru, you obey me and learn this by

listening" A world of separtation would be created by the Guru due

to lack of understanding and insight. This would be an immature

Guru who shouldn't be teaching.

>

> As Guru's and Teachers (we are all these at one time or another)

it's our responsibility to understand our students in order to teach

them effectively. If not, then a power struggle ensues and then the

Disciple leaves the Guru or ashram. The Guru can then say, "That

disciple didn't surrender to me because I'm right" or "That disciple

is arrogant and nothing with out what I have to teach her." Imaging

hearing this at a school. "Helen Keller is arrogant because she

can't learn the way I want to teach her" She can't learn anything I

have to give because she is Blind!". Well, it's because the Guru is

being arrogant and needs to learn from the difficult subject matter -

the student.

>

> To assume the disciple is not a good one is abusive. It can keep

the Guru on the pedistal without any self reflection. If the Guru

can't lower himself enough to learn how this disciple will thrive in

learning, then the Guru is at fault. Was Helen Keller to be blamed

for the way she learned? Should KBBookbag be blamed because she

learns by sight rather than hearing?

>

> This is what I mean by the nature of the disciple. If the Guru is

to be effective, the Guru should learn from the Student as well to

know how to reach the student. All disciples want to learn. A good

disciple vs bad disciple is irrelevant. Many of them have no idea

how they learn and can't even tell that to the Guru to help the

Guru. This is why for me Guru is Friend in action. A Partner.

Someone who I can be REALLY honest with.

>

> Each stomach can handle different food. It's up to the child to

say, "Hay Mom, that doesn't agree with my stomach. I can't digest

that. Can you fix me something more blan? Thanks Mama." If the

Mama doesn't fix the food blan enough for the child, it's the

mothers fault if the child doesnt eat. This is where children learn

to cook on thier own and loose faith in the parent, when the parent

doesn't listen.

>

> Namaste,

> Kelly

>

> parvati_saraswati <parvati_saraswati> wrote:

> Dear Kelly,

> I agree with you that the Guru knows everyone's nature and

> teaches accordingly. It is also up to the disciple to decide how

> much do they want to change. The disiple also has to know

> beyond a shadow of a doubt who their Guru is and are they a

> devotee or a disciple. In Nandu's post he referred to the

student

> (or devotee) who takes the teaching but doesn't necesarily

> change. But a disciple takes the teachings and changes his or

> her life. He or she strives to become a mirror image of the

> Guru.There are thousands of gurus but few disciples. At times

> the teaching may not be easy to take but the disciple continues

> to have faith in the Guru and perseveres.

> Maa says with faith we can jump across the ocean. Onetime

> Maa told us this true story of faith. There was once a 6 year old

> girl who had leprosy and she went to visit a Saint who had a

> reputation for curing the ills of humanity. The little girl bowed

> down to the saint and asked him if he could please cure her of

> her disease. He told her to shine his puja utensils every day and

> as much as the utensils shined that much she herself would

> shine from inside. Everyday the little girl would shine the

> utensils and everyday the untensils would shine more and more

> brightly until one day the girl's leprosy disappeared.

> With faith the little girl was cured. Faith will cure us of our

worldly

> disease and we can jump across the ocean of worldliness.

> Happy driving! Hang in there even if the car seems to being

> going too fast at times.

>

Sponsor

>

> Terms of

Service.

>

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October 30, 2003

Dearest Kelli and Parvati,

In my view, you are both completely correct. The guru knows how to

teach the disciple and the disciple learns to trust the guru's

ability to teach them. The disciple must learn to surrender to the

guru in able to learn. When I was at the Devi Mandir, I had a

"natural ability" to learn from Swamiji. It was much harder for me

to surrender to Maa and learn from Her. Due to my own inability to

surrender, I missed out on a lot of opportunities to learn from Her.

That is my regret... that I missed out on such a rare opportunity to

learn from a Satguru (and Jagadguru). I now look back and try to

learn from Her example and inspiration. I pray to Her and sing to

Her and am totally grateful for Her humble example and Her Love.

Ardis

Kelly Leeper <blissnout >

Mon, 27 Oct 2003 12:09:45 -0800 (PST)

Re: Re: Kelly's analogy/Guru and everyone's nature

I responded to exactly what you wrote but to another devotee. I'll

send that in addendum to what you wrote, then you will understand. I

can't remember if I asked a question that would warrant this reponse,

although I might have.