Guest guest Posted November 14, 2003 Report Share Posted November 14, 2003 Is questioning bad or less than? The very act of asking is one that invites recieving. I remember learning a homa ritual from a teacher who didn't want me to ask questions. I was learning too fast for him or asking questions he didn't know. Pretty soon, that ended and that was ok for me. I think it's good for Americans to honor their learning process so that we can continue to learn in whatever way it looks like. To judge a questioning person is to make assumptions about them and that is why this person was no longer my teacher. Questions... our very search is one big question, a Quest. The ways of culture is just that - ways. I think it's ok for the east to not question if that is how they were raised and I think it's ok for the west to question because that is how we were raised. Why is the idea 'to question or not to question' important? Do easterns think questioning automatically means doubt or lack of faith? It could be so basic and we make it a very complex issue due to culture. Questions that come from the quest are very holy and deserve to be answered. The very impetus to enlighten is the same nature of the question, I feel. Also, why can't we be relaxed with our Guru? Is anything else putting on airs? Astraea brings up some good topics..astraea2003 <astraea2003 > wrote: Sarada,Thanks for the great Shree Maa stories!One of the things (I found interesting in these stories) is our American habit of questioning everything. As you know, in the traditional Hindu way, the Guru's suggestions are treated as commands and followed without question.It's so natural for us to question everything. It's very funny that we treat the Guru as if She were an ordinary human being. (And I suspect She probably makes a point of being as "ordinary" as possible.)Very funny stories!Jai Maa!Astraea--- In , "Sarada" <sarada_saraswati> wrote:> Latha, I have a similar story but the result was a bit different. A > few years ago the wooden bridge that leads to our Mandir needed to > be replaced. It was starting to rot away and every time a car passed > over it there was a good chance that it would be the end of the > bridge. One day when we finally decided to rebuild it, I was > starting the first stage of the demolition of the old bridge in a > very light rain, and Maa walked by and said that I should go inside > because the wet weather conditions would make me sick. I has lived > in some pretty extreme climates in my life and to me this light rain > posed no threat at all to my health especially because I had a very > strong immune system and had been used to working in freezing rain > and snow during the previous five years in Boston. So I considered > the advice to be nothing but Maa just being the sweet mother to her > children and kept right on doing what I was doing.> > The next day I woke up with the worst flu that I can remember > having in my life and I was in bed for a week. I couldn't believe > it, I hadn't been sick at all for years and now this. I then > remembered Maa's advice. Sometimes the Guru sees thing that we just > can't perceive and give advice according to that intuition. As > devotees, we have to have faith that they know what is best for us > even when we think that we know better. Sometimes they are just > testing us. Ma told me a story once of one of Her Gurus telling Her > to eat a rock. When She put it in Her mouth and began to chew it > turned into a delicious sweet. > > There is another story that happened when we were building Maa's > house. There was a big oak tree in the front yard that Maa decided > one day that it needed to come down. She was afraid that one day the > tree would fall on Her house. This was a difficult proposition for > us because the angle of the tree put the house at risk of being > toppled when we would cut it, so we tried to talk Her out of it. The > tree appeared to be perfectly healthy to us so we felt confident > taking responsibility for letting the tree stay. "Of course it won't > fall down," we thought, "What does She know about trees anyways and > besides, the tree shows no signs decay at all. This tree will be > here for another hundred years easily." Well, after a few days of > debate we decided to listen to the Divine Mother and we cut down the > tree. To our surprise, the entire center of the tree was rotten and > it would have only been a matter of time before Maa would have been > surprised by a crashing tree falling into Her kitchen.> > Even though from the outside the tree showed no signs at all of > danger, Maa saw inside the tree and was giving Her advice from that > perspective. I would imagine that all of Her words come from this > same intuition. > > > , "kamalama_2002" > <kamalama_2002> wrote:> > As we purify more and more, I pray that our will comes into > harmony > > with the Divine Will. Not only that, but that we intuit, and know > > without uncertainty, and yield to that Divine Will! Is the Guru's > > desire also the Divine Will? You surrendered! Jai Maa!To from this group, send an email to:Your use of Groups is subject to the Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Dear Kelly, I was reading your post and rereading Astraea's. Sure questions are good. That is how we learn. Swamiji says that He can tell what kind of sadhana a disciple is doing from the questions that he/she asks. The "questioning" that was brought up, though, is of a different kind. We meet the Guru and AFTER USING DISCRIMINATION determine this to be a true teacher, then we should learn NOT to question Her/Him because, as true teachers, Their objective is only our graduation to a higher level. Maa and Swamiji want us to ask questions, but to question Their suggestions and proddings......well, one ends up learning the hard way. , Kelly Leeper <blissnout> wrote: > All, > > Is questioning bad or less than? The very act of asking is one that invites recieving. I remember learning a homa ritual from a teacher who didn't want me to ask questions. I was learning too fast for him or asking questions he didn't know. Pretty soon, that ended and that was ok for me. I think it's good for Americans to honor their learning process so that we can continue to learn in whatever way it looks like. To judge a questioning person is to make assumptions about them and that is why this person was no longer my teacher. Questions... our very search is one big question, a Quest. The ways of culture is just that - ways. I think it's ok for the east to not question if that is how they were raised and I think it's ok for the west to question because that is how we were raised. Why is the idea 'to question or not to question' important? Do easterns think questioning automatically means doubt or lack of faith? It could be so basic and we make it a very complex issue > due to culture. Questions that come from the quest are very holy and deserve to be answered. The very impetus to enlighten is the same nature of the question, I feel. > > Also, why can't we be relaxed with our Guru? Is anything else putting on airs? > > Astraea brings up some good topics.. > > astraea2003 <astraea2003> wrote: > Sarada, > Thanks for the great Shree Maa stories! > One of the things (I found interesting in these stories) is our > American habit of questioning everything. As you know, in the > traditional Hindu way, the Guru's suggestions are treated as commands > and followed without question. > > It's so natural for us to question everything. It's very funny that > we treat the Guru as if She were an ordinary human being. (And I > suspect She probably makes a point of being as "ordinary" as > possible.) > Very funny stories! > > Jai Maa! > Astraea > > , "Sarada" <sarada_saraswati> > wrote: > > Latha, I have a similar story but the result was a bit different. > A > > few years ago the wooden bridge that leads to our Mandir needed to > > be replaced. It was starting to rot away and every time a car > passed > > over it there was a good chance that it would be the end of the > > bridge. One day when we finally decided to rebuild it, I was > > starting the first stage of the demolition of the old bridge in a > > very light rain, and Maa walked by and said that I should go inside > > because the wet weather conditions would make me sick. I has lived > > in some pretty extreme climates in my life and to me this light > rain > > posed no threat at all to my health especially because I had a very > > strong immune system and had been used to working in freezing rain > > and snow during the previous five years in Boston. So I considered > > the advice to be nothing but Maa just being the sweet mother to her > > children and kept right on doing what I was doing. > > > > The next day I woke up with the worst flu that I can remember > > having in my life and I was in bed for a week. I couldn't believe > > it, I hadn't been sick at all for years and now this. I then > > remembered Maa's advice. Sometimes the Guru sees thing that we just > > can't perceive and give advice according to that intuition. As > > devotees, we have to have faith that they know what is best for us > > even when we think that we know better. Sometimes they are just > > testing us. Ma told me a story once of one of Her Gurus telling Her > > to eat a rock. When She put it in Her mouth and began to chew it > > turned into a delicious sweet. > > > > There is another story that happened when we were building Maa's > > house. There was a big oak tree in the front yard that Maa decided > > one day that it needed to come down. She was afraid that one day > the > > tree would fall on Her house. This was a difficult proposition for > > us because the angle of the tree put the house at risk of being > > toppled when we would cut it, so we tried to talk Her out of it. > The > > tree appeared to be perfectly healthy to us so we felt confident > > taking responsibility for letting the tree stay. "Of course it > won't > > fall down," we thought, "What does She know about trees anyways and > > besides, the tree shows no signs decay at all. This tree will be > > here for another hundred years easily." Well, after a few days of > > debate we decided to listen to the Divine Mother and we cut down > the > > tree. To our surprise, the entire center of the tree was rotten and > > it would have only been a matter of time before Maa would have been > > surprised by a crashing tree falling into Her kitchen. > > > > Even though from the outside the tree showed no signs at all of > > danger, Maa saw inside the tree and was giving Her advice from that > > perspective. I would imagine that all of Her words come from this > > same intuition. > > > > > > , "kamalama_2002" > > <kamalama_2002> wrote: > > > As we purify more and more, I pray that our will comes into > > harmony > > > with the Divine Will. Not only that, but that we intuit, and > know > > > without uncertainty, and yield to that Divine Will! Is the > Guru's > > > desire also the Divine Will? You surrendered! Jai Maa! > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Namaste Kelly, Here are my two cents ... Unless you ask how will you know ? If you ask, you have two possibilities - either you get an answer or you dont. If you dont ask, you have only one possibility - no answer. Therefore we should keep asking... It is not what we ask , but the way that it is asked and the spirit in which it is asked that matters. How do we ask the question - that is where the problem arises. The cultural difference is there ; I know it personally because I have seen the interaction between western students and eastern teachers, and western students and western teachers. If we look at any teacher - any culture is - first and foremost , to show respect. The question is framed as a request, because we are the beginners and we have come to gain the knowledge. The personal relationship needs to be built, for some this happens right away. If you asked your teacher and the teacher didnt respond :- chances are 1) communication gap - can be worked on with analysis. 2) the teacher felt he could not help you - you move on. 3) you need to be patient and ask at another opportunity. Dear Kelly, I have read enough of your posts to know that you look for a 50-50 partnership in the Guru-disciple relationship. However when it is a question of you learning from your Guru, you surrender 100% and the Guru gives back 100%. So it is a 100%-100% relationship, atleast my understanding. Thanks for calling out these important questions. Latha , Kelly Leeper <blissnout> wrote: > All, > > Is questioning bad or less than? The very act of asking is one that invites recieving. I remember learning a homa ritual from a teacher who didn't want me to ask questions. I was learning too fast for him or asking questions he didn't know. Pretty soon, that ended and that was ok for me. I think it's good for Americans to honor their learning process so that we can continue to learn in whatever way it looks like. To judge a questioning person is to make assumptions about them and that is why this person was no longer my teacher. Questions... our very search is one big question, a Quest. The ways of culture is just that - ways. I think it's ok for the east to not question if that is how they were raised and I think it's ok for the west to question because that is how we were raised. Why is the idea 'to question or not to question' important? Do easterns think questioning automatically means doubt or lack of faith? It could be so basic and we make it a very complex issue > due to culture. Questions that come from the quest are very holy and deserve to be answered. The very impetus to enlighten is the same nature of the question, I feel. > > Also, why can't we be relaxed with our Guru? Is anything else putting on airs? > > Astraea brings up some good topics.. > > astraea2003 <astraea2003> wrote: > Sarada, > Thanks for the great Shree Maa stories! > One of the things (I found interesting in these stories) is our > American habit of questioning everything. As you know, in the > traditional Hindu way, the Guru's suggestions are treated as commands > and followed without question. > > It's so natural for us to question everything. It's very funny that > we treat the Guru as if She were an ordinary human being. (And I > suspect She probably makes a point of being as "ordinary" as > possible.) > Very funny stories! > > Jai Maa! > Astraea > > , "Sarada" <sarada_saraswati> > wrote: > > Latha, I have a similar story but the result was a bit different. > A > > few years ago the wooden bridge that leads to our Mandir needed to > > be replaced. It was starting to rot away and every time a car > passed > > over it there was a good chance that it would be the end of the > > bridge. One day when we finally decided to rebuild it, I was > > starting the first stage of the demolition of the old bridge in a > > very light rain, and Maa walked by and said that I should go inside > > because the wet weather conditions would make me sick. I has lived > > in some pretty extreme climates in my life and to me this light > rain > > posed no threat at all to my health especially because I had a very > > strong immune system and had been used to working in freezing rain > > and snow during the previous five years in Boston. So I considered > > the advice to be nothing but Maa just being the sweet mother to her > > children and kept right on doing what I was doing. > > > > The next day I woke up with the worst flu that I can remember > > having in my life and I was in bed for a week. I couldn't believe > > it, I hadn't been sick at all for years and now this. I then > > remembered Maa's advice. Sometimes the Guru sees thing that we just > > can't perceive and give advice according to that intuition. As > > devotees, we have to have faith that they know what is best for us > > even when we think that we know better. Sometimes they are just > > testing us. Ma told me a story once of one of Her Gurus telling Her > > to eat a rock. When She put it in Her mouth and began to chew it > > turned into a delicious sweet. > > > > There is another story that happened when we were building Maa's > > house. There was a big oak tree in the front yard that Maa decided > > one day that it needed to come down. She was afraid that one day > the > > tree would fall on Her house. This was a difficult proposition for > > us because the angle of the tree put the house at risk of being > > toppled when we would cut it, so we tried to talk Her out of it. > The > > tree appeared to be perfectly healthy to us so we felt confident > > taking responsibility for letting the tree stay. "Of course it > won't > > fall down," we thought, "What does She know about trees anyways and > > besides, the tree shows no signs decay at all. This tree will be > > here for another hundred years easily." Well, after a few days of > > debate we decided to listen to the Divine Mother and we cut down > the > > tree. To our surprise, the entire center of the tree was rotten and > > it would have only been a matter of time before Maa would have been > > surprised by a crashing tree falling into Her kitchen. > > > > Even though from the outside the tree showed no signs at all of > > danger, Maa saw inside the tree and was giving Her advice from that > > perspective. I would imagine that all of Her words come from this > > same intuition. > > > > > > , "kamalama_2002" > > <kamalama_2002> wrote: > > > As we purify more and more, I pray that our will comes into > > harmony > > > with the Divine Will. Not only that, but that we intuit, and > know > > > without uncertainty, and yield to that Divine Will! Is the > Guru's > > > desire also the Divine Will? You surrendered! Jai Maa! > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Yes it's true you can tell what a persons sadhana is like due to questions, but there are also times when I ask questions just to hear the answer at that time from that person. To see if the answer will change. Even in satsang I will ask questions for the sake of the group, a question I already have my answer to. Often times you can tell where one is 'at', but not all the time:) I use questions as a vehicle for the mind to think of possibilities, even with my Guru. You can also tell where a person is 'at' by the answers they give, but the answer may be partial because of how the question was phrased. This is why when in satsang, if I feel another side of a question or a different way of posing a phrase, I will throw it out there for the sake of conversation. As far as doing what the Guru says, of course, that is why we have one. Also, each disciple has different bellies so one's nature might be more inquisitive than anothers. I have alot of lessons in my life that if I were to have followed the teacher, I would have gone down the WRONG road, including renunciation... It would have been very wrong for me and my nature but my Guru wanted it for me. When one has a deep intuitive connection already, to not listen to ones own intuition is a grave mistake, no matter how insightful the Guru is. The Guru might even test the disciple this way... Will she think for herself? How well does she know herself? It's not always cookie cutter the same. I appreciate your words Gauri:) Jai Maa! Kelly Gauri <gaurima108 > wrote: Dear Kelly,I was reading your post and rereading Astraea's. Sure questions are good. That is how we learn. Swamiji says that He can tell what kind of sadhana a disciple is doing from the questions that he/she asks. The "questioning" that was brought up, though, is of a different kind. We meet the Guru and AFTER USING DISCRIMINATION determine this to be a true teacher, then we should learn NOT to question Her/Him because, as true teachers, Their objective is only our graduation to a higher level. Maa and Swamiji want us to ask questions, but to question Their suggestions and proddings......well, one ends up learning the hard way., Kelly Leeper <blissnout> wrote:> All,> > Is questioning bad or less than? The very act of asking is one that invites recieving. I remember learning a homa ritual from a teacher who didn't want me to ask questions. I was learning too fast for him or asking questions he didn't know. Pretty soon, that ended and that was ok for me. I think it's good for Americans to honor their learning process so that we can continue to learn in whatever way it looks like. To judge a questioning person is to make assumptions about them and that is why this person was no longer my teacher. Questions... our very search is one big question, a Quest. The ways of culture is just that - ways. I think it's ok for the east to not question if that is how they were raised and I think it's ok for the west to question because that is how we were raised. Why is the idea 'to question or not to question' important? Do easterns think questioning automatically means doubt or lack of faith? It could be so basic and we make it a very complex issue> due to culture. Questions that come from the quest are very holy and deserve to be answered. The very impetus to enlighten is the same nature of the question, I feel. > > Also, why can't we be relaxed with our Guru? Is anything else putting on airs?> > Astraea brings up some good topics..> > astraea2003 <astraea2003> wrote:> Sarada,> Thanks for the great Shree Maa stories!> One of the things (I found interesting in these stories) is our > American habit of questioning everything. As you know, in the > traditional Hindu way, the Guru's suggestions are treated as commands > and followed without question.> > It's so natural for us to question everything. It's very funny that > we treat the Guru as if She were an ordinary human being. (And I > suspect She probably makes a point of being as "ordinary" as > possible.)> Very funny stories!> > Jai Maa!> Astraea> > , "Sarada" <sarada_saraswati> > wrote:> > Latha, I have a similar story but the result was a bit different. > A > > few years ago the wooden bridge that leads to our Mandir needed to > > be replaced. It was starting to rot away and every time a car > passed > > over it there was a good chance that it would be the end of the > > bridge. One day when we finally decided to rebuild it, I was > > starting the first stage of the demolition of the old bridge in a > > very light rain, and Maa walked by and said that I should go inside > > because the wet weather conditions would make me sick. I has lived > > in some pretty extreme climates in my life and to me this light > rain > > posed no threat at all to my health especially because I had a very > > strong immune system and had been used to working in freezing rain > > and snow during the previous five years in Boston. So I considered > > the advice to be nothing but Maa just being the sweet mother to her > > children and kept right on doing what I was doing.> > > > The next day I woke up with the worst flu that I can remember > > having in my life and I was in bed for a week. I couldn't believe > > it, I hadn't been sick at all for years and now this. I then > > remembered Maa's advice. Sometimes the Guru sees thing that we just > > can't perceive and give advice according to that intuition. As > > devotees, we have to have faith that they know what is best for us > > even when we think that we know better. Sometimes they are just > > testing us. Ma told me a story once of one of Her Gurus telling Her > > to eat a rock. When She put it in Her mouth and began to chew it > > turned into a delicious sweet. > > > > There is another story that happened when we were building Maa's > > house. There was a big oak tree in the front yard that Maa decided > > one day that it needed to come down. She was afraid that one day > the > > tree would fall on Her house. This was a difficult proposition for > > us because the angle of the tree put the house at risk of being > > toppled when we would cut it, so we tried to talk Her out of it. > The > > tree appeared to be perfectly healthy to us so we felt confident > > taking responsibility for letting the tree stay. "Of course it > won't > > fall down," we thought, "What does She know about trees anyways and > > besides, the tree shows no signs decay at all. This tree will be > > here for another hundred years easily." Well, after a few days of > > debate we decided to listen to the Divine Mother and we cut down > the > > tree. To our surprise, the entire center of the tree was rotten and > > it would have only been a matter of time before Maa would have been > > surprised by a crashing tree falling into Her kitchen.> > > > Even though from the outside the tree showed no signs at all of > > danger, Maa saw inside the tree and was giving Her advice from that > > perspective. I would imagine that all of Her words come from this > > same intuition. > > > > > > , "kamalama_2002" > > <kamalama_2002> wrote:> > > As we purify more and more, I pray that our will comes into > > harmony > > > with the Divine Will. Not only that, but that we intuit, and > know > > > without uncertainty, and yield to that Divine Will! Is the > Guru's > > > desire also the Divine Will? You surrendered! Jai Maa!> > > > Sponsor> To from this group, send an email to:> > > > > Your use of Groups is subject to the > > > > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuardTo from this group, send an email to:Your use of is subject to the Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 Gauri, You understood my post. It's interesting how questions can be used as weapons. Sometimes "questions" aren't really "questions" at all, but a form of aggression disguised as "questions". The questioner isn't really interested in the answer to the questions; he knows there are no simple answers to those questions. Sometimes when a person is bludgeoned with a barrage of "questions", he can feel (rightfully) "attacked". On the other hand, the questioner may be like a small child who asks "Why?" mechanically, not really listening to the answers. One gauge is to pay attention to the way you feel after dealing with the "questions": if you feel drained & exhausted afterward, it's a pretty good indication of what you've been dealing with. Astraea , "Gauri" <gaurima108> wrote: > Dear Kelly, > > I was reading your post and rereading Astraea's. Sure questions are > good. That is how we learn. Swamiji says that He can tell what > kind of sadhana a disciple is doing from the questions that he/she > asks. The "questioning" that was brought up, though, is of a > different kind. We meet the Guru and AFTER USING DISCRIMINATION > determine this to be a true teacher, then we should learn NOT to > question Her/Him because, as true teachers, Their objective is only > our graduation to a higher level. Maa and Swamiji want us to ask > questions, but to question Their suggestions and > proddings......well, one ends up learning the hard way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 Namaste Kelly,Here are my two cents ...Unless you ask how will you know ? If you ask, you have two possibilities - either you get an answer or you dont. If you dont ask, you have only one possibility - no answer. Therefore we should keep asking... It is not what we ask , but the way that it is asked and the spirit in which it is asked that matters. ********* agree totally *********How do we ask the question - that is where the problem arises. The cultural difference is there ; I know it personally because I have seen the interaction between western students and eastern teachers, and western students and western teachers.If we look at any teacher - any culture is - first and foremost , to show respect. The question is framed as a request, because we are the beginners and we have come to gain the knowledge. The personal relationship needs to be built, for some this happens right away. ********* for me, having several Guru's in my life, I've had various experiencese with each one, definately a history. Respect was always there as I am a pretty sweet person and quiet in person, always respectful. But some of them took advantage of that and Maa has given me lessons in asserting myself and recognizing my own intuition and for the most part, when I follow it, it has proven to be more sound than the Guru's advice. I can't ignore what Maa has given me with my own intuition, that would be disrespecting Her gift. But yes, respect goes both ways, I agree. When it comes to learning puja or sanskrit, of course I would need a guru for learning that, but that is not my emphasis. I like reciting, but doing things with my hands is destracting.If you asked your teacher and the teacher didnt respond :- chances are1) communication gap - can be worked on with analysis.2) the teacher felt he could not help you - you move on.3) you need to be patient and ask at another opportunity. ******* I think number 3 was it. He is now my closest friend and companion besides God, but his method of teaching is not my method. I'm very interactive and he is more traditional being from India. His Guru told him not to question so he never did, so he expected that of me. So we became the closest of friends instead:) Now the 'roles' don't matter. He is not teaching me homa, but that is OK. I learn very differently than he teaches, so when he has patience for questions, I might not ask so many:)Dear Kelly, I have read enough of your posts to know that you look for a 50-50 partnership in the Guru-disciple relationship. However when it is a question of you learning from your Guru, you surrender 100% and the Guru gives back 100%. So it is a 100%-100% relationship, atleast my understanding. ********* Babaji is definately a 100% relationship. I have found the Ego of physical Gurus to get in the way of sincerity. Their pompousness or attachments come out around me for some reason and a strong need to control. It's sad, but I have to let them be when they get that way. I am not responsible for a Guru's reactions, he is and the disciple is not always to blame. There is always a history to the stories, so God has been my friend in first aid of Guru damage more than a few times. I would love to have a physical Guru, but I don't think it's going to happen. Maa has already shown Herself through so much and I learn much more acutely that way. So, like a court jester, I like to respectfully ask questions to probe the mind of Swami's and Guru's. I want to hear answers to see if they are valid or superstitious, then I might post some more. I definately lean toward the siddha path which is shaivism of south India since rebirthers are shaivites for the most part, but finding a Guru in that tradition is very, very hard. They do not wear orange and they do not make themselves known to the masses, so to travel there ISO a Siddha Guru who is really an immortal (can physically transmute) might be difficult, but I would be so blessed to find one. I have one, Babaji but he is not in a body right now. Some say he is, and he could be in two or three right now. The important thing is to do sadhana and love God. When one is doing their sadhana, Guru comes thru everything, this is what I have seen.Thanks for calling out these important questions. Your welcome:) Thanks for posing some questions back:) Namaste:)Latha--- In , Kelly Leeper <blissnout> wrote:> All,> > Is questioning bad or less than? The very act of asking is one that invites recieving. I remember learning a homa ritual from a teacher who didn't want me to ask questions. I was learning too fast for him or asking questions he didn't know. Pretty soon, that ended and that was ok for me. I think it's good for Americans to honor their learning process so that we can continue to learn in whatever way it looks like. To judge a questioning person is to make assumptions about them and that is why this person was no longer my teacher. Questions... our very search is one big question, a Quest. The ways of culture is just that - ways. I think it's ok for the east to not question if that is how they were raised and I think it's ok for the west to question because that is how we were raised. Why is the idea 'to question or not to question' important? Do easterns think questioning automatically means doubt or lack of faith? It could be so basic and we make it a very complex issue> due to culture. Questions that come from the quest are very holy and deserve to be answered. The very impetus to enlighten is the same nature of the question, I feel. > > Also, why can't we be relaxed with our Guru? Is anything else putting on airs?> > Astraea brings up some good topics..> > astraea2003 <astraea2003> wrote:> Sarada,> Thanks for the great Shree Maa stories!> One of the things (I found interesting in these stories) is our > American habit of questioning everything. As you know, in the > traditional Hindu way, the Guru's suggestions are treated as commands > and followed without question.> > It's so natural for us to question everything. It's very funny that > we treat the Guru as if She were an ordinary human being. (And I > suspect She probably makes a point of being as "ordinary" as > possible.)> Very funny stories!> > Jai Maa!> Astraea> > , "Sarada" <sarada_saraswati> > wrote:> > Latha, I have a similar story but the result was a bit different. > A > > few years ago the wooden bridge that leads to our Mandir needed to > > be replaced. It was starting to rot away and every time a car > passed > > over it there was a good chance that it would be the end of the > > bridge. One day when we finally decided to rebuild it, I was > > starting the first stage of the demolition of the old bridge in a > > very light rain, and Maa walked by and said that I should go inside > > because the wet weather conditions would make me sick. I has lived > > in some pretty extreme climates in my life and to me this light > rain > > posed no threat at all to my health especially because I had a very > > strong immune system and had been used to working in freezing rain > > and snow during the previous five years in Boston. So I considered > > the advice to be nothing but Maa just being the sweet mother to her > > children and kept right on doing what I was doing.> > > > The next day I woke up with the worst flu that I can remember > > having in my life and I was in bed for a week. I couldn't believe > > it, I hadn't been sick at all for years and now this. I then > > remembered Maa's advice. Sometimes the Guru sees thing that we just > > can't perceive and give advice according to that intuition. As > > devotees, we have to have faith that they know what is best for us > > even when we think that we know better. Sometimes they are just > > testing us. Ma told me a story once of one of Her Gurus telling Her > > to eat a rock. When She put it in Her mouth and began to chew it > > turned into a delicious sweet. > > > > There is another story that happened when we were building Maa's > > house. There was a big oak tree in the front yard that Maa decided > > one day that it needed to come down. She was afraid that one day > the > > tree would fall on Her house. This was a difficult proposition for > > us because the angle of the tree put the house at risk of being > > toppled when we would cut it, so we tried to talk Her out of it. > The > > tree appeared to be perfectly healthy to us so we felt confident > > taking responsibility for letting the tree stay. "Of course it > won't > > fall down," we thought, "What does She know about trees anyways and > > besides, the tree shows no signs decay at all. This tree will be > > here for another hundred years easily." Well, after a few days of > > debate we decided to listen to the Divine Mother and we cut down > the > > tree. To our surprise, the entire center of the tree was rotten and > > it would have only been a matter of time before Maa would have been > > surprised by a crashing tree falling into Her kitchen.> > > > Even though from the outside the tree showed no signs at all of > > danger, Maa saw inside the tree and was giving Her advice from that > > perspective. I would imagine that all of Her words come from this > > same intuition. > > > > > > , "kamalama_2002" > > <kamalama_2002> wrote:> > > As we purify more and more, I pray that our will comes into > > harmony > > > with the Divine Will. Not only that, but that we intuit, and > know > > > without uncertainty, and yield to that Divine Will! Is the > Guru's > > > desire also the Divine Will? You surrendered! Jai Maa!> > > > Sponsor> To from this group, send an email to:> > > > > Your use of Groups is subject to the > > > > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuardTo from this group, send an email to:Your use of is subject to the Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 16, 2003 Report Share Posted November 16, 2003 I heard you very well. I understood you. The subject matter is not You, but I can see how You could think it was. We are not our thoughts so my questions were about the subject matter, not You. Please don't take my questions personally. And please don't make assumptions. Jai Maa, Kellyastraea2003 <astraea2003 > wrote: Gauri,You understood my post.It's interesting how questions can be used as weapons. Sometimes "questions" aren't really "questions" at all, but a form of aggression disguised as "questions". The questioner isn't really interested in the answer to the questions; he knows there are no simple answers to those questions. Sometimes when a person is bludgeoned with a barrage of "questions", he can feel (rightfully) "attacked". On the other hand, the questioner may be like a small child who asks "Why?" mechanically, not really listening to the answers.One gauge is to pay attention to the way you feel after dealing with the "questions": if you feel drained & exhausted afterward, it's a pretty good indication of what you've been dealing with. Astraea, "Gauri" <gaurima108> wrote:> Dear Kelly,> > I was reading your post and rereading Astraea's. Sure questions are > good. That is how we learn. Swamiji says that He can tell what > kind of sadhana a disciple is doing from the questions that he/she > asks. The "questioning" that was brought up, though, is of a > different kind. We meet the Guru and AFTER USING DISCRIMINATION > determine this to be a true teacher, then we should learn NOT to > question Her/Him because, as true teachers, Their objective is only > our graduation to a higher level. Maa and Swamiji want us to ask > questions, but to question Their suggestions and > proddings......well, one ends up learning the hard way.To from this group, send an email to:Your use of is subject to the Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 Dear Kelly, I read your responses with interest. I totally agree on your lines 'The important thing is to do sadhana and love God. When one is doing their sadhana, Guru comes thru everything, this is what I have seen.' It looks like (my assumption) that it maybe a case of 'once bitten twice shy' syndrome. Therefore you find it hard to trust another person as a 'Guru' , but since you are open and seeking, you dont have problems accepting wisdom from everything and everyone. I bow to your openness and willingness to learn from all. May I recommend a book -"Do you need a Guru" by Mariana Caplan. She brings up the concept of conscious disciplehood. How you can keep control in your hands by deciding what you can or cannot undergo. I found this book useful. Unless we can trust completely and throw caution to winds and scream unabashedly to all the world "I love my Guru SOOO MUCH" , it is wise to take cautious steps. Another thing that I go by is what I have heard Swamiji say "You can find a lot of true gurus but it is difficult to find one true disciple " . So I am trying to follow those words and awaken the disciple within me . This is where obedience (get up at this time and do this puja - how much simpler can it get) and sadhana comes in. I am praying with whatever sincerity that I am capable of and pray to be the true disciple. I know then the Guru will appear. Swamiji and all the great saints before him cannot be wrong. With love, Latha , Kelly Leeper <blissnout> wrote: > Latha Nanda:) Namaste. See below: > > Latha Nanda <lathananda> wrote: > Namaste Kelly, > > Here are my two cents ... > > Unless you ask how will you know ? If you ask, you have two possibilities - either you get an answer or you dont. If you dont ask, you have only one possibility - no answer. > > Therefore we should keep asking... It is not what we ask , but the way that it is asked and the spirit in which it is asked that matters. > > ********* agree totally ********* > > How do we ask the question - that is where the problem arises. The cultural difference is there ; I know it personally because I have seen the interaction between western students and eastern teachers, and western students and western teachers. > > If we look at any teacher - any culture is - first and foremost , to show respect. The question is framed as a request, because we are the beginners and we have come to gain the knowledge. The personal relationship needs to be built, for some this happens right away. > > ********* for me, having several Guru's in my life, I've had various experiencese with each one, definately a history. Respect was always there as I am a pretty sweet person and quiet in person, always respectful. But some of them took advantage of that and Maa has given me lessons in asserting myself and recognizing my own intuition and for the most part, when I follow it, it has proven to be more sound than the Guru's advice. I can't ignore what Maa has given me with my own intuition, that would be disrespecting Her gift. But yes, respect goes both ways, I agree. When it comes to learning puja or sanskrit, of course I would need a guru for learning that, but that is not my emphasis. I like reciting, but doing things with my hands is destracting. > > If you asked your teacher and the teacher didnt respond :- chances are > 1) communication gap - can be worked on with analysis. > 2) the teacher felt he could not help you - you move on. > 3) you need to be patient and ask at another opportunity. > > ******* I think number 3 was it. He is now my closest friend and companion besides God, but his method of teaching is not my method. I'm very interactive and he is more traditional being from India. His Guru told him not to question so he never did, so he expected that of me. So we became the closest of friends instead:) Now the 'roles' don't matter. He is not teaching me homa, but that is OK. I learn very differently than he teaches, so when he has patience for questions, I might not ask so many:) > > Dear Kelly, I have read enough of your posts to know that you look for a 50-50 partnership in the Guru-disciple relationship. However when it is a question of you learning from your Guru, you surrender 100% and the Guru gives back 100%. So it is a 100%-100% relationship, > atleast my understanding. > > ********* Babaji is definately a 100% relationship. I have found the Ego of physical Gurus to get in the way of sincerity. Their pompousness or attachments come out around me for some reason and a strong need to control. It's sad, but I have to let them be when they get that way. I am not responsible for a Guru's reactions, he is and the disciple is not always to blame. There is always a history to the stories, so God has been my friend in first aid of Guru damage more than a few times. I would love to have a physical Guru, but I don't think it's going to happen. Maa has already shown Herself through so much and I learn much more acutely that way. So, like a court jester, I like to respectfully ask questions to probe the mind of Swami's and Guru's. I want to hear answers to see if they are valid or superstitious, then I might post some more. I definately lean toward the siddha path which is shaivism of south India since rebirthers are shaivites for the most part, but > finding a Guru in that tradition is very, very hard. They do not wear orange and they do not make themselves known to the masses, so to travel there ISO a Siddha Guru who is really an immortal (can physically transmute) might be difficult, but I would be so blessed to find one. I have one, Babaji but he is not in a body right now. Some say he is, and he could be in two or three right now. The important thing is to do sadhana and love God. When one is doing their sadhana, Guru comes thru everything, this is what I have seen. > Thanks for calling out these important questions. Your welcome:) Thanks for posing some questions back:) Namaste:) > Latha > > > , Kelly Leeper <blissnout> > wrote: > > All, > > > > Is questioning bad or less than? The very act of asking is one > that invites recieving. I remember learning a homa ritual from a > teacher who didn't want me to ask questions. I was learning too fast > for him or asking questions he didn't know. Pretty soon, that ended > and that was ok for me. I think it's good for Americans to honor > their learning process so that we can continue to learn in whatever > way it looks like. To judge a questioning person is to make > assumptions about them and that is why this person was no longer my > teacher. Questions... our very search is one big question, a Quest. > The ways of culture is just that - ways. I think it's ok for the > east to not question if that is how they were raised and I think it's > ok for the west to question because that is how we were raised. Why > is the idea 'to question or not to question' important? Do easterns > think questioning automatically means doubt or lack of faith? It > could be so basic and we make it a very complex issue > > due to culture. Questions that come from the quest are very holy > and deserve to be answered. The very impetus to enlighten is the > same nature of the question, I feel. > > > > Also, why can't we be relaxed with our Guru? Is anything else > putting on airs? > > > > Astraea brings up some good topics.. > > > > astraea2003 <astraea2003> wrote: > > Sarada, > > Thanks for the great Shree Maa stories! > > One of the things (I found interesting in these stories) is our > > American habit of questioning everything. As you know, in the > > traditional Hindu way, the Guru's suggestions are treated as > commands > > and followed without question. > > > > It's so natural for us to question everything. It's very funny that > > we treat the Guru as if She were an ordinary human being. (And I > > suspect She probably makes a point of being as "ordinary" as > > possible.) > > Very funny stories! > > > > Jai Maa! > > Astraea > > > > , "Sarada" > <sarada_saraswati> > > wrote: > > > Latha, I have a similar story but the result was a bit > different. > > A > > > few years ago the wooden bridge that leads to our Mandir needed > to > > > be replaced. It was starting to rot away and every time a car > > passed > > > over it there was a good chance that it would be the end of the > > > bridge. One day when we finally decided to rebuild it, I was > > > starting the first stage of the demolition of the old bridge in a > > > very light rain, and Maa walked by and said that I should go > inside > > > because the wet weather conditions would make me sick. I has > lived > > > in some pretty extreme climates in my life and to me this light > > rain > > > posed no threat at all to my health especially because I had a > very > > > strong immune system and had been used to working in freezing > rain > > > and snow during the previous five years in Boston. So I > considered > > > the advice to be nothing but Maa just being the sweet mother to > her > > > children and kept right on doing what I was doing. > > > > > > The next day I woke up with the worst flu that I can remember > > > having in my life and I was in bed for a week. I couldn't believe > > > it, I hadn't been sick at all for years and now this. I then > > > remembered Maa's advice. Sometimes the Guru sees thing that we > just > > > can't perceive and give advice according to that intuition. As > > > devotees, we have to have faith that they know what is best for > us > > > even when we think that we know better. Sometimes they are just > > > testing us. Ma told me a story once of one of Her Gurus telling > Her > > > to eat a rock. When She put it in Her mouth and began to chew it > > > turned into a delicious sweet. > > > > > > There is another story that happened when we were building Maa's > > > house. There was a big oak tree in the front yard that Maa > decided > > > one day that it needed to come down. She was afraid that one day > > the > > > tree would fall on Her house. This was a difficult proposition > for > > > us because the angle of the tree put the house at risk of being > > > toppled when we would cut it, so we tried to talk Her out of it. > > The > > > tree appeared to be perfectly healthy to us so we felt confident > > > taking responsibility for letting the tree stay. "Of course it > > won't > > > fall down," we thought, "What does She know about trees anyways > and > > > besides, the tree shows no signs decay at all. This tree will be > > > here for another hundred years easily." Well, after a few days of > > > debate we decided to listen to the Divine Mother and we cut down > > the > > > tree. To our surprise, the entire center of the tree was rotten > and > > > it would have only been a matter of time before Maa would have > been > > > surprised by a crashing tree falling into Her kitchen. > > > > > > Even though from the outside the tree showed no signs at all of > > > danger, Maa saw inside the tree and was giving Her advice from > that > > > perspective. I would imagine that all of Her words come from this > > > same intuition. > > > > > > > > > , "kamalama_2002" > > > <kamalama_2002> wrote: > > > > As we purify more and more, I pray that our will comes into > > > harmony > > > > with the Divine Will. Not only that, but that we intuit, and > > know > > > > without uncertainty, and yield to that Divine Will! Is the > > Guru's > > > > desire also the Divine Will? You surrendered! Jai Maa! > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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