Guest guest Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 Chris, That is a VERY good question. The only answer I can think of is an appeal to Her. I dont know if what I am doing is right or wrong or pleases You. I dont know if I have the devotion or not. I dont know if my motivations for doing the sadhana are pure But YOU are the mother, and whatever happens is what you decide is the Prasad for my Sadhana. Latha , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956> wrote: > Kelly, > > This is an intersesting topic to me. Why do bad things happen to some > devotees/practitioners? > > It is a fact, I believe, that Divine Mother loves all of her children > equally, and we are all her children, even those performing the most > debased acts. Painful things certainly happen to these people. > > There are many stories of people being hurt by performing practices > for which they were not prepared. These people are hurt by these > experiences. Why are they allowed to suffer? Perhaps they lacked true > devotion, but I am not able to judge that. Perhaps they had true > devotion. > > I have always thought it was the guidence and care of the guru that > made the difference, but I don't know that for sure. > > Shree Maa tells a story about a sadhu doing an advanced practice > seated on a corpse who gets eaten by a tiger. Divine Mother says he > was eaten because he lacked pure devotion. I wonder how anyone could > undertake such a sadhana without having devotion? How pure is pure? > > One who is fully surrendered, fully absorbed into the divine, is > certainly protected in every way, but what about the rest of us? > > Chris > > > > , Kelly Leeper <blissnout> > wrote: > > Balaravi, > > > > Enjoyed your post here. I have a question: > > > > If devotion is most important (and I think it's a huge factor) then > Ma will protect the child when they chant the mantra. You imply that > the chant is very powerful and it is certainly, but I also know the > Divine Mother will not provide a mantra the child can't handle. All > other beleifs are superstitous. To not do a mantra because a Guru > didn't provide it is besides the point. Ma is the ultimate in Guru > and if one is aligned to her, she will protect and bring to fruition > what the child can achieve thru the mantra or she will make the child > more interested in something else, like the world so they lose > interest in chanting the mantra. > > > > It's all safe. > > > > I agree with your TV station reception. But I also think some TV's > and Radio's have a better subwoffers speakers and and will provide > more shakti when turned up loud:) When it's loud you best have the > right channel otherwise it's scratchy to the ears and not pleasant to > listen to. > > > > The main issue about mantra's received from a Guru is not that > important if devotion is the main factor. If one has a Guru and is > alligned with Guru what mantra they chant whether it comes from > elsewhere is fine. I received the mantra from a tantric adept who > has been chanting it from childhood and so far, after reciting it, > has brought me alot of comfort. Part of my sadhana is to erradicate > superstition from the Truth. They get so superimposed on eachother > and then people blindly agree to beleive this stuff without ever > testing it themselves. I think if one is compelled to do a mantra, > they should - That's Devotion! > > > > Jai Maa! > > Kelly > > > > balaravi <balaravi> wrote: > > Dear Members, > > I just came across lucid posting on pronounciation > > which prompted me to join this group. > > I would like to state a few points for you to ponder. > > Just like a radio or TV is to be properly tuned to > > receive signals, a mantra is to be recited correctly for best > > results, but as rightly pointed out in the posting each model of > > TV,say Soni, Samsung etc. claim excellent reception. Similarly > > different people pronounce the same word in their own ways. This > > applies to all languages! > > Unlike broadcasts, Mata looks into the heart of > > Sadhaka and not the pronounciation. So devotion is the most > > important aspect. > > Please, I repeat please do not start reciting mantras > > without getting it from a Guru who has practised it for long. They > > are like high voltage, you should protect yourself before touching > > them. Not that they are harmful, but we should be raised to a level > > to receive them. And there is ladder, you don't jump to the highest > > level. Step by step initiation is like going K-12 and is the BEST > > WAY. > > True Gurus do not part with Shodasi easily. > > Most prevalent forms of Panchadasi & Shodasi are as > > below > > > > ka e i la hrim > > ha sa ka ha la hrim > > sa ka la hrim > > Panchadasi becomes Shodasi by adding SHRIM > > Properly done you can enjoy bliss right here in the midst > > of misery > > > > > > Best wishes for Devi worship > > > > > > > > balaravi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Kelly Leeper <blissnout> > > wrote: > > > Astraea, > > > > > > This is how Nandu teaches the Sodashi, Lalita mantra. Call me > and > > I will chant it > > > for you over the phone and you can tape it. 949-493-1800. The > > purple bija's are raised. > > > The underlined is low. If you have a piano or harmonium it goes > > like this: > > > > > > Om srim hrim klim aim sow om hrim > > > E flat E D flat E flat "" "" "" "" > > > > > > ka e i la hrim > > > E flat E D flat D flat E flat > > > > > > ha sa ka ha la hrim - all D flat in triplets if you understand > > music > > > > > > sa ka la hrim - All E Flat > > > > > > sow aim klim hrim shrim > > > E flat E flat E flat D flat E flat > > > > > > When it come to certain mantra's I do them with intonations. I > > love this mantra. > > > It comes from an tantric odiyya tradition and is the mantra for > > the 3rd Goddess, Sodashi in the dasamahavidya's. > > > > > > Enjoy and call if you want me to chant it for you. You've been > > initiated into Guru, no problem. > > > > > > Jai Maa! > > > Kelly > > > > > > > > > Srinath Ram <srinath_atreya> wrote: > > > Namasthe Astraea > > > > > > > > > As Shree Pandith Tigunait has rightly said, there are many > > versions > > > of the Shri vidya mantra. The school of thought [sampradaya] that > > > practices the mantra begining with "ka" is called "kaadi matha" > > > or "kaadi vidya sampradaaya". Likewise there are "saadi" (sa- > > > aadi:begining with 'sa'), "haadi" etc. > > > > > > The mantra which you have quoted is actually "shodashakari" - the > > 16 > > > syllabled mantra of the Divine Mother. Panchadashi is 15 > lettered. > > > Both are also called as Shree chakra mantras as they are the main > > > mantras for worshipping the shree chakram. > > > > > > The rules of Shree vidya prohibits even discussing the secrets of > > the > > > vidya in the presence of the uninitiated one. In such cases, one > > can > > > refer to the mantras indirectly. Normally, we say "moola" [the > > > original/source]to mean the Shree vidya mantra. > > > > > > The vedic tradition is an oral tradition - mantras and secret > > > knowledge are taught by the Gurus to their desciples orally, in > > > secrecy and it is laid out that sacred mantras should not be > > written. > > > > > > > > > , "astraea2003" > > <astraea2003> > > > wrote: > > > > Namaste Sarada, > > > > I'm probably getting into things over my head, but I'm curious. > > > > In one commentary on the Lalita Sahasranama, it mentions the > > > fifteen > > > > syllable mantra, panchadashaksari, as the mantra of Sri Chakra. > > > > > > > > According to Pandit Tigunait, there are many variations of the > > Sri > > > > Vidya mantra. These are the fifteen syllables he gives: > > > > > > > > Ka e i la hrim > > > > ha sa ka ha la hrim > > > > sa ka la hrim > > > > shrim > > > > > > > > Is the Sri Vidya mantra the same thing as the Sri Chakra > mantra? > > > > Is the term "panchadashaksari" simply a way to refer to the Sri > > > > Chakra or Sri Vidya mantra without revealing the mantra? > > > > > > > > Astraea > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 2, 2003 Report Share Posted December 2, 2003 Praticioners still make mistakes while starting out. Later they tend to become more savvy. With less errors, less misfortune finds its way to them. I got caught in a huge market downturn and burned with countless milllions of other investors. Since then my best investment of effort seems to be in daily pujas which over the course of time have become my greatest treasure. Practices bring solace. With it wounds can heal. It is my best medicine. , "Latha Nanda" <lathananda> wrote: > Chris, > > That is a VERY good question. > > The only answer I can think of is an appeal to Her. > > I dont know if what I am doing is right or wrong or pleases You. > I dont know if I have the devotion or not. > I dont know if my motivations for doing the sadhana are pure > But YOU are the mother, and whatever happens is what you decide is > the Prasad for my Sadhana. > > Latha > > > > > > , "Chris Kirner" > <chriskirner1956> wrote: > > Kelly, > > > > This is an intersesting topic to me. Why do bad things happen to > some > > devotees/practitioners? > > > > It is a fact, I believe, that Divine Mother loves all of her > children > > equally, and we are all her children, even those performing the > most > > debased acts. Painful things certainly happen to these people. > > > > There are many stories of people being hurt by performing practices > > for which they were not prepared. These people are hurt by these > > experiences. Why are they allowed to suffer? Perhaps they lacked > true > > devotion, but I am not able to judge that. Perhaps they had true > > devotion. > > > > I have always thought it was the guidence and care of the guru that > > made the difference, but I don't know that for sure. > > > > Shree Maa tells a story about a sadhu doing an advanced practice > > seated on a corpse who gets eaten by a tiger. Divine Mother says he > > was eaten because he lacked pure devotion. I wonder how anyone > could > > undertake such a sadhana without having devotion? How pure is pure? > > > > One who is fully surrendered, fully absorbed into the divine, is > > certainly protected in every way, but what about the rest of us? > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > , Kelly Leeper <blissnout> > > wrote: > > > Balaravi, > > > > > > Enjoyed your post here. I have a question: > > > > > > If devotion is most important (and I think it's a huge factor) > then > > Ma will protect the child when they chant the mantra. You imply > that > > the chant is very powerful and it is certainly, but I also know the > > Divine Mother will not provide a mantra the child can't handle. > All > > other beleifs are superstitous. To not do a mantra because a Guru > > didn't provide it is besides the point. Ma is the ultimate in Guru > > and if one is aligned to her, she will protect and bring to > fruition > > what the child can achieve thru the mantra or she will make the > child > > more interested in something else, like the world so they lose > > interest in chanting the mantra. > > > > > > It's all safe. > > > > > > I agree with your TV station reception. But I also think some > TV's > > and Radio's have a better subwoffers speakers and and will provide > > more shakti when turned up loud:) When it's loud you best have the > > right channel otherwise it's scratchy to the ears and not pleasant > to > > listen to. > > > > > > The main issue about mantra's received from a Guru is not that > > important if devotion is the main factor. If one has a Guru and is > > alligned with Guru what mantra they chant whether it comes from > > elsewhere is fine. I received the mantra from a tantric adept who > > has been chanting it from childhood and so far, after reciting it, > > has brought me alot of comfort. Part of my sadhana is to > erradicate > > superstition from the Truth. They get so superimposed on eachother > > and then people blindly agree to beleive this stuff without ever > > testing it themselves. I think if one is compelled to do a mantra, > > they should - That's Devotion! > > > > > > Jai Maa! > > > Kelly > > > > > > balaravi <balaravi> wrote: > > > Dear Members, > > > I just came across lucid posting on pronounciation > > > which prompted me to join this group. > > > I would like to state a few points for you to > ponder. > > > Just like a radio or TV is to be properly tuned to > > > receive signals, a mantra is to be recited correctly for best > > > results, but as rightly pointed out in the posting each model of > > > TV,say Soni, Samsung etc. claim excellent reception. Similarly > > > different people pronounce the same word in their own ways. This > > > applies to all languages! > > > Unlike broadcasts, Mata looks into the heart of > > > Sadhaka and not the pronounciation. So devotion is the most > > > important aspect. > > > Please, I repeat please do not start reciting > mantras > > > without getting it from a Guru who has practised it for long. > They > > > are like high voltage, you should protect yourself before > touching > > > them. Not that they are harmful, but we should be raised to a > level > > > to receive them. And there is ladder, you don't jump to the > highest > > > level. Step by step initiation is like going K-12 and is the BEST > > > WAY. > > > True Gurus do not part with Shodasi easily. > > > Most prevalent forms of Panchadasi & Shodasi are as > > > below > > > > > > ka e i la hrim > > > ha sa ka ha la hrim > > > sa ka la hrim > > > Panchadasi becomes Shodasi by adding SHRIM > > > Properly done you can enjoy bliss right here in the > midst > > > of misery > > > > > > > > > Best wishes for Devi worship > > > > > > > > > > > > balaravi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Kelly Leeper <blissnout> > > > wrote: > > > > Astraea, > > > > > > > > This is how Nandu teaches the Sodashi, Lalita mantra. Call me > > and > > > I will chant it > > > > for you over the phone and you can tape it. 949-493-1800. The > > > purple bija's are raised. > > > > The underlined is low. If you have a piano or harmonium it > goes > > > like this: > > > > > > > > Om srim hrim klim aim sow om hrim > > > > E flat E D flat E flat "" "" "" "" > > > > > > > > ka e i la hrim > > > > E flat E D flat D flat E flat > > > > > > > > ha sa ka ha la hrim - all D flat in triplets if you > understand > > > music > > > > > > > > sa ka la hrim - All E Flat > > > > > > > > sow aim klim hrim shrim > > > > E flat E flat E flat D flat E flat > > > > > > > > When it come to certain mantra's I do them with intonations. I > > > love this mantra. > > > > It comes from an tantric odiyya tradition and is the mantra for > > > the 3rd Goddess, Sodashi in the dasamahavidya's. > > > > > > > > Enjoy and call if you want me to chant it for you. You've been > > > initiated into Guru, no problem. > > > > > > > > Jai Maa! > > > > Kelly > > > > > > > > > > > > Srinath Ram <srinath_atreya> wrote: > > > > Namasthe Astraea > > > > > > > > > > > > As Shree Pandith Tigunait has rightly said, there are many > > > versions > > > > of the Shri vidya mantra. The school of thought [sampradaya] > that > > > > practices the mantra begining with "ka" is called "kaadi matha" > > > > or "kaadi vidya sampradaaya". Likewise there are "saadi" (sa- > > > > aadi:begining with 'sa'), "haadi" etc. > > > > > > > > The mantra which you have quoted is actually "shodashakari" - > the > > > 16 > > > > syllabled mantra of the Divine Mother. Panchadashi is 15 > > lettered. > > > > Both are also called as Shree chakra mantras as they are the > main > > > > mantras for worshipping the shree chakram. > > > > > > > > The rules of Shree vidya prohibits even discussing the secrets > of > > > the > > > > vidya in the presence of the uninitiated one. In such cases, > one > > > can > > > > refer to the mantras indirectly. Normally, we say "moola" [the > > > > original/source]to mean the Shree vidya mantra. > > > > > > > > The vedic tradition is an oral tradition - mantras and secret > > > > knowledge are taught by the Gurus to their desciples orally, in > > > > secrecy and it is laid out that sacred mantras should not be > > > written. > > > > > > > > > > > > , "astraea2003" > > > <astraea2003> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Namaste Sarada, > > > > > I'm probably getting into things over my head, but I'm > curious. > > > > > In one commentary on the Lalita Sahasranama, it mentions the > > > > fifteen > > > > > syllable mantra, panchadashaksari, as the mantra of Sri > Chakra. > > > > > > > > > > According to Pandit Tigunait, there are many variations of > the > > > Sri > > > > > Vidya mantra. These are the fifteen syllables he gives: > > > > > > > > > > Ka e i la hrim > > > > > ha sa ka ha la hrim > > > > > sa ka la hrim > > > > > shrim > > > > > > > > > > Is the Sri Vidya mantra the same thing as the Sri Chakra > > mantra? > > > > > Is the term "panchadashaksari" simply a way to refer to the > Sri > > > > > Chakra or Sri Vidya mantra without revealing the mantra? > > > > > > > > > > Astraea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2003 Report Share Posted December 3, 2003 Latha, Yes, that is the only answer for those of us still ignorant of the laws of Mother - faith. Chris , "Latha Nanda" <lathananda> wrote: > Chris, > > That is a VERY good question. > > The only answer I can think of is an appeal to Her. > > I dont know if what I am doing is right or wrong or pleases You. > I dont know if I have the devotion or not. > I dont know if my motivations for doing the sadhana are pure > But YOU are the mother, and whatever happens is what you decide is > the Prasad for my Sadhana. > > Latha > > > > > > , "Chris Kirner" > <chriskirner1956> wrote: > > Kelly, > > > > This is an intersesting topic to me. Why do bad things happen to > some > > devotees/practitioners? > > > > It is a fact, I believe, that Divine Mother loves all of her > children > > equally, and we are all her children, even those performing the > most > > debased acts. Painful things certainly happen to these people. > > > > There are many stories of people being hurt by performing practices > > for which they were not prepared. These people are hurt by these > > experiences. Why are they allowed to suffer? Perhaps they lacked > true > > devotion, but I am not able to judge that. Perhaps they had true > > devotion. > > > > I have always thought it was the guidence and care of the guru that > > made the difference, but I don't know that for sure. > > > > Shree Maa tells a story about a sadhu doing an advanced practice > > seated on a corpse who gets eaten by a tiger. Divine Mother says he > > was eaten because he lacked pure devotion. I wonder how anyone > could > > undertake such a sadhana without having devotion? How pure is pure? > > > > One who is fully surrendered, fully absorbed into the divine, is > > certainly protected in every way, but what about the rest of us? > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > , Kelly Leeper <blissnout> > > wrote: > > > Balaravi, > > > > > > Enjoyed your post here. I have a question: > > > > > > If devotion is most important (and I think it's a huge factor) > then > > Ma will protect the child when they chant the mantra. You imply > that > > the chant is very powerful and it is certainly, but I also know the > > Divine Mother will not provide a mantra the child can't handle. > All > > other beleifs are superstitous. To not do a mantra because a Guru > > didn't provide it is besides the point. Ma is the ultimate in Guru > > and if one is aligned to her, she will protect and bring to > fruition > > what the child can achieve thru the mantra or she will make the > child > > more interested in something else, like the world so they lose > > interest in chanting the mantra. > > > > > > It's all safe. > > > > > > I agree with your TV station reception. But I also think some > TV's > > and Radio's have a better subwoffers speakers and and will provide > > more shakti when turned up loud:) When it's loud you best have the > > right channel otherwise it's scratchy to the ears and not pleasant > to > > listen to. > > > > > > The main issue about mantra's received from a Guru is not that > > important if devotion is the main factor. If one has a Guru and is > > alligned with Guru what mantra they chant whether it comes from > > elsewhere is fine. I received the mantra from a tantric adept who > > has been chanting it from childhood and so far, after reciting it, > > has brought me alot of comfort. Part of my sadhana is to > erradicate > > superstition from the Truth. They get so superimposed on eachother > > and then people blindly agree to beleive this stuff without ever > > testing it themselves. I think if one is compelled to do a mantra, > > they should - That's Devotion! > > > > > > Jai Maa! > > > Kelly > > > > > > balaravi <balaravi> wrote: > > > Dear Members, > > > I just came across lucid posting on pronounciation > > > which prompted me to join this group. > > > I would like to state a few points for you to > ponder. > > > Just like a radio or TV is to be properly tuned to > > > receive signals, a mantra is to be recited correctly for best > > > results, but as rightly pointed out in the posting each model of > > > TV,say Soni, Samsung etc. claim excellent reception. Similarly > > > different people pronounce the same word in their own ways. This > > > applies to all languages! > > > Unlike broadcasts, Mata looks into the heart of > > > Sadhaka and not the pronounciation. So devotion is the most > > > important aspect. > > > Please, I repeat please do not start reciting > mantras > > > without getting it from a Guru who has practised it for long. > They > > > are like high voltage, you should protect yourself before > touching > > > them. Not that they are harmful, but we should be raised to a > level > > > to receive them. And there is ladder, you don't jump to the > highest > > > level. Step by step initiation is like going K-12 and is the BEST > > > WAY. > > > True Gurus do not part with Shodasi easily. > > > Most prevalent forms of Panchadasi & Shodasi are as > > > below > > > > > > ka e i la hrim > > > ha sa ka ha la hrim > > > sa ka la hrim > > > Panchadasi becomes Shodasi by adding SHRIM > > > Properly done you can enjoy bliss right here in the > midst > > > of misery > > > > > > > > > Best wishes for Devi worship > > > > > > > > > > > > balaravi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Kelly Leeper <blissnout> > > > wrote: > > > > Astraea, > > > > > > > > This is how Nandu teaches the Sodashi, Lalita mantra. Call me > > and > > > I will chant it > > > > for you over the phone and you can tape it. 949-493-1800. The > > > purple bija's are raised. > > > > The underlined is low. If you have a piano or harmonium it > goes > > > like this: > > > > > > > > Om srim hrim klim aim sow om hrim > > > > E flat E D flat E flat "" "" "" "" > > > > > > > > ka e i la hrim > > > > E flat E D flat D flat E flat > > > > > > > > ha sa ka ha la hrim - all D flat in triplets if you > understand > > > music > > > > > > > > sa ka la hrim - All E Flat > > > > > > > > sow aim klim hrim shrim > > > > E flat E flat E flat D flat E flat > > > > > > > > When it come to certain mantra's I do them with intonations. I > > > love this mantra. > > > > It comes from an tantric odiyya tradition and is the mantra for > > > the 3rd Goddess, Sodashi in the dasamahavidya's. > > > > > > > > Enjoy and call if you want me to chant it for you. You've been > > > initiated into Guru, no problem. > > > > > > > > Jai Maa! > > > > Kelly > > > > > > > > > > > > Srinath Ram <srinath_atreya> wrote: > > > > Namasthe Astraea > > > > > > > > > > > > As Shree Pandith Tigunait has rightly said, there are many > > > versions > > > > of the Shri vidya mantra. The school of thought [sampradaya] > that > > > > practices the mantra begining with "ka" is called "kaadi matha" > > > > or "kaadi vidya sampradaaya". Likewise there are "saadi" (sa- > > > > aadi:begining with 'sa'), "haadi" etc. > > > > > > > > The mantra which you have quoted is actually "shodashakari" - > the > > > 16 > > > > syllabled mantra of the Divine Mother. Panchadashi is 15 > > lettered. > > > > Both are also called as Shree chakra mantras as they are the > main > > > > mantras for worshipping the shree chakram. > > > > > > > > The rules of Shree vidya prohibits even discussing the secrets > of > > > the > > > > vidya in the presence of the uninitiated one. In such cases, > one > > > can > > > > refer to the mantras indirectly. Normally, we say "moola" [the > > > > original/source]to mean the Shree vidya mantra. > > > > > > > > The vedic tradition is an oral tradition - mantras and secret > > > > knowledge are taught by the Gurus to their desciples orally, in > > > > secrecy and it is laid out that sacred mantras should not be > > > written. > > > > > > > > > > > > , "astraea2003" > > > <astraea2003> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Namaste Sarada, > > > > > I'm probably getting into things over my head, but I'm > curious. > > > > > In one commentary on the Lalita Sahasranama, it mentions the > > > > fifteen > > > > > syllable mantra, panchadashaksari, as the mantra of Sri > Chakra. > > > > > > > > > > According to Pandit Tigunait, there are many variations of > the > > > Sri > > > > > Vidya mantra. These are the fifteen syllables he gives: > > > > > > > > > > Ka e i la hrim > > > > > ha sa ka ha la hrim > > > > > sa ka la hrim > > > > > shrim > > > > > > > > > > Is the Sri Vidya mantra the same thing as the Sri Chakra > > mantra? > > > > > Is the term "panchadashaksari" simply a way to refer to the > Sri > > > > > Chakra or Sri Vidya mantra without revealing the mantra? > > > > > > > > > > Astraea > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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