Guest guest Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Namaste, everyone Recently I was thinking about sacrifice, and how central it is to the teachings and practices we have, and recently there have been several discussion about homa, a distinct form of sacrifice and tapasya. I would like to put a question out there for discussion--what do people believe about sacrifice? what is your understanding? how is it intimately a part of who we are (this I believe)? What are we doing when we perform a sacred fire sacrifice? One of my most favorite chants is in the Rudrastadyayai, Chapter 8. In this powerful and beautiful chant, we acknowledge all that is Me, all that is in me, and in extolling that, we say, "by means of sacrifice I conceive that all is within me." What feelings come in you when you read this? My intuition is that it is kind of a "neti, neti." That as we give away all, as we surrender all, we realize all, and know that we are that--nothing and everything. This must be bliss, and complete and utter peace. Hara hara Mahadev! Nitya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 Nitya Ma, I have thought about this concept, wondering at its real meaning, its deeper subtleties, and at bottom I think I will not wholly grasp it until that day my hands never leave the feet of the Mother. Still, I have arrived at an understanding that suits me. Perhaps it will suit you. I believe sacrifice is synonymous with service. Life in the service of life is sacrifice. When I think of the word sacrifice, I generally think of doing something I don't want to do. I may be doing this thing for another, or for an ideal, but the primary connotation is that I'm giving something up, that I'm suffering, that I'm depriving myself. In the sense of sacrifice as a spiritual activity, I don't think this is true. Whatever pain there is, is secondary and unimportant. When pain and deprivation become primary in sacrifice, we get hair shirts, scourges, and beds of nails. These kinds of severe austerities are said in scriptures to be of no spiritual value. When we worship at the altar of pain and deprivation, what more can we expect to achieve? In this world there is no act or perception that is without the pairs of opposites. Even the ultimate pleasure of samadhi must be left behind (pain). In the cultivation of spiritual virtues there is much that is experienced as painful in the beginning, but soon becomes pleasant as it leads to greater and greater bliss and benefit. Our disciplines are not about the discomfort they cause at first, but about the blessings they engender. Life in the service of life. Part of the problem with this idea of sacrifice, is that most of us see it only from the perspective of an unenlightened ego. One of the fascinating aspects of the experience of a flood of sattwa guna is that, for many things, the experience of pleasure and pain get shifted. What was before experienced as pleasant is now understood to be painful, and visa versa. Enlightened people just don't experience the pairs of opposites the same way we do. Meister Eckhart, a sixteenth century Christian mystic even went so far as to say that Jesus didn't really suffer on the cross in the same way that we often imagine he did, but rather derived great joy from this ultimate act of sacrifice for the sake of others. The Goddess Chinnamasta severs her own head, offering her own life's- blood for the nourishment of the two Goddesses at her side. Suryadeva constantly shines forth life for the earth. Agnideva brings light and warmth, and is the life-force of every living creature. For these great beings, service is their very nature, their reason for existence. So it is with the gurudeva, whose life is service to the students under her care, as well as to the world. So it is with the masters in the Himalayas and other places, whose days are taken up with watching and helping the mass of humanity who do not even know they exist. All of these great beings, these high examples of service, lead lives we would find entail great sacrifice. Yet for them, I suspect, there is only great joy in the service. Chris , "nitya_ma" <nitya_ma> wrote: > Namaste, everyone > Recently I was thinking about sacrifice, and how central it is to the teachings > and practices we have, and recently there have been several discussion > about homa, a distinct form of sacrifice and tapasya. > I would like to put a question out there for discussion--what do people believe > about sacrifice? what is your understanding? how is it intimately a part of who > we are (this I believe)? > What are we doing when we perform a sacred fire sacrifice? > One of my most favorite chants is in the Rudrastadyayai, Chapter 8. > In this powerful and beautiful chant, we acknowledge all that is Me, all that is > in me, and in extolling that, we say, "by means of sacrifice I conceive that all is > within me." > What feelings come in you when you read this? > My intuition is that it is kind of a "neti, neti." That as we give away all, as we > surrender all, we realize all, and know that we are that--nothing and > everything. This must be bliss, and complete and utter peace. > Hara hara Mahadev! > > Nitya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Namaste, Chris, Thank you so much for a thoughtful and beautiful post in reply to my questioning, you gave me lots to digest and dig, as well as much affirmation. I too believe sacrifice, beyond the unenlightened ego, is complete and utter service--true seva--and the pure goal of existence, engendering joy. When we come to know who we truly are, I believe, or as you imply, when one comes into full union with Self, one may come to fully understand sacrifice and the truth it holds. It is who we are--and we cannot be other than this. When we hold on to who we believe we are, "sacrifice" is felt as pain, even as bereavement. When we let go of conditioned notions of who we are, become "udas"-- servant of circumstance, in service to the moment in living, sacrifice is our natural way--a sacred circle of giving and receiving, creation, preservation then dissolution, over and over, unending. When we are clear in our goal(s) of service--when we focus with intent on what we are giving, on what we are offering, we come into harmony with what is, and I believe that is joyful--and perhaps there is the receiving. Receiving what is always there anyway. I want to continue to hold this concept, and come back to it; and also to meditate on Chapter 5 in Rudri. There seems to be a beautiful gem here. Thank you again Nitya Ma , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956> wrote: > Nitya Ma, > > I have thought about this concept, wondering at its real meaning, its > deeper subtleties, and at bottom I think I will not wholly grasp it > until that day my hands never leave the feet of the Mother. Still, I > have arrived at an understanding that suits me. Perhaps it will suit > you. I believe sacrifice is synonymous with service. > > Life in the service of life is sacrifice. > > When I think of the word sacrifice, I generally think of doing > something I don't want to do. I may be doing this thing for another, > or for an ideal, but the primary connotation is that I'm giving > something up, that I'm suffering, that I'm depriving myself. In the > sense of sacrifice as a spiritual activity, I don't think this is > true. Whatever pain there is, is secondary and unimportant. > > When pain and deprivation become primary in sacrifice, we get hair > shirts, scourges, and beds of nails. These kinds of severe > austerities are said in scriptures to be of no spiritual value. When > we worship at the altar of pain and deprivation, what more can we > expect to achieve? > > In this world there is no act or perception that is without the pairs > of opposites. Even the ultimate pleasure of samadhi must be left > behind (pain). In the cultivation of spiritual virtues there is much > that is experienced as painful in the beginning, but soon becomes > pleasant as it leads to greater and greater bliss and benefit. Our > disciplines are not about the discomfort they cause at first, but > about the blessings they engender. Life in the service of life. > > Part of the problem with this idea of sacrifice, is that most of us > see it only from the perspective of an unenlightened ego. One of the > fascinating aspects of the experience of a flood of sattwa guna is > that, for many things, the experience of pleasure and pain get > shifted. What was before experienced as pleasant is now understood to > be painful, and visa versa. Enlightened people just don't experience > the pairs of opposites the same way we do. > > Meister Eckhart, a sixteenth century Christian mystic even went so > far as to say that Jesus didn't really suffer on the cross in the > same way that we often imagine he did, but rather derived great joy > from this ultimate act of sacrifice for the sake of others. > > The Goddess Chinnamasta severs her own head, offering her own life's- > blood for the nourishment of the two Goddesses at her side. Suryadeva > constantly shines forth life for the earth. Agnideva brings light and > warmth, and is the life-force of every living creature. For these > great beings, service is their very nature, their reason for > existence. So it is with the gurudeva, whose life is service to the > students under her care, as well as to the world. So it is with the > masters in the Himalayas and other places, whose days are taken up > with watching and helping the mass of humanity who do not even know > they exist. > > All of these great beings, these high examples of service, lead lives > we would find entail great sacrifice. Yet for them, I suspect, there > is only great joy in the service. > > Chris > > > > > > , "nitya_ma" <nitya_ma> wrote: > > Namaste, everyone > > Recently I was thinking about sacrifice, and how central it is to > the teachings > > and practices we have, and recently there have been several > discussion > > about homa, a distinct form of sacrifice and tapasya. > > I would like to put a question out there for discussion--what do > people believe > > about sacrifice? what is your understanding? how is it intimately > a part of who > > we are (this I believe)? > > What are we doing when we perform a sacred fire sacrifice? > > One of my most favorite chants is in the Rudrastadyayai, Chapter 8. > > In this powerful and beautiful chant, we acknowledge all that is > Me, all that is > > in me, and in extolling that, we say, "by means of sacrifice I > conceive that all is > > within me." > > What feelings come in you when you read this? > > My intuition is that it is kind of a "neti, neti." That as we give > away all, as we > > surrender all, we realize all, and know that we are that--nothing > and > > everything. This must be bliss, and complete and utter peace. > > Hara hara Mahadev! > > > > Nitya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 It is simle and wonderful way of explaining the sacrifice.The undersigned is really enlightend to some extent on this. True so long as we identify us with the body and the resultant interaction of it with the five senses all these pain and sacrifice are felt, once as you said we understand our role and US there is nothing like pain or other feelings but JOY of service. Grateful to you Ma Yours Padmanabhan SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Namaste Nitya and Chris, I have been enjoying your conversation and wanted to jump in to add my 2 cents. When I want to change from a current state to a preferred state, it calls for a change in attitude and a change in activity. Some attitudes and activity I have to give up and this I define as 'sacrifice'. This is true for any change , from mundane life to spiritual life. In mundane life it may be giving up a favorite food to realise a goal like losing weight. In spiritual life it may be giving up an attachment that blocks my spiritual growth. So I look at sacrifice not as something that I have to give up, but a block that has to be freed , so that God can make his presence felt more in my life. JAI MAA Latha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 latha i always had a hard time resonating with words like surrender and sacrifice because you seem to end up with so much more ... there is no loss whatsoever. yesterday i was driving and saw my favorite car. i didn't covet the car, i was feeling that divine connection instead. whoa! that's better! someone in love doesn't care about all that stuff, it slides off naturally, like it's just forgotten. that's a good day. other time it feels more like work, so i guess surrender and sacrifice become more meaningful. more profoundly, it would be sort of a gentle giving, a sacred moment, prasad, or an austerity ... once again, its actually a joy, and if the joy is not seen at first, it will be ... steve , "Latha Nanda" <lathananda> wrote: > Namaste Nitya and Chris, > > I have been enjoying your conversation and wanted to jump in to add > my 2 cents. > > When I want to change from a current state to a preferred state, it > calls for a change in attitude and a change in activity. > > Some attitudes and activity I have to give up and this I define > as 'sacrifice'. > > This is true for any change , from mundane life to spiritual life. > > In mundane life it may be giving up a favorite food to realise a goal > like losing weight. > > In spiritual life it may be giving up an attachment that blocks my > spiritual growth. > > So I look at sacrifice not as something that I have to give up, but a > block that has to be freed , so that God can make his presence felt > more in my life. > > JAI MAA > Latha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Nitya, Pure service, dedicated service as a natural extention of being and consciousness is so beautiful. I yearn for its dawning in me. Chris , "nitya_ma" <nitya_ma> wrote: > Namaste, Chris, > Thank you so much for a thoughtful and beautiful post in reply to my > questioning, you gave me lots to digest and dig, as well as much > affirmation. > I too believe sacrifice, beyond the unenlightened ego, is complete and utter > service--true seva--and the pure goal of existence, engendering joy. > When we come to know who we truly are, I believe, or as you imply, > when one comes into full union with Self, one may come to fully understand > sacrifice and the truth it holds. > It is who we are--and we cannot be other than this. When we hold on to who > we believe we are, "sacrifice" is felt as pain, even as bereavement. > When we let go of conditioned notions of who we are, become "udas"-- > servant of circumstance, in service to the moment in living, sacrifice is our > natural way--a sacred circle of giving and receiving, creation, preservation > then dissolution, over and over, unending. > When we are clear in our goal(s) of service--when we focus with intent on > what we are giving, on what we are offering, we come into harmony with what > is, and I believe that is joyful--and perhaps there is the receiving. > Receiving what is always there anyway. > I want to continue to hold this concept, and come back to it; and also > to meditate on Chapter 5 in Rudri. > There seems to be a beautiful gem here. > Thank you again > Nitya Ma > > > , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956> > wrote: > > Nitya Ma, > > > > I have thought about this concept, wondering at its real meaning, its > > deeper subtleties, and at bottom I think I will not wholly grasp it > > until that day my hands never leave the feet of the Mother. Still, I > > have arrived at an understanding that suits me. Perhaps it will suit > > you. I believe sacrifice is synonymous with service. > > > > Life in the service of life is sacrifice. > > > > When I think of the word sacrifice, I generally think of doing > > something I don't want to do. I may be doing this thing for another, > > or for an ideal, but the primary connotation is that I'm giving > > something up, that I'm suffering, that I'm depriving myself. In the > > sense of sacrifice as a spiritual activity, I don't think this is > > true. Whatever pain there is, is secondary and unimportant. > > > > When pain and deprivation become primary in sacrifice, we get hair > > shirts, scourges, and beds of nails. These kinds of severe > > austerities are said in scriptures to be of no spiritual value. When > > we worship at the altar of pain and deprivation, what more can we > > expect to achieve? > > > > In this world there is no act or perception that is without the pairs > > of opposites. Even the ultimate pleasure of samadhi must be left > > behind (pain). In the cultivation of spiritual virtues there is much > > that is experienced as painful in the beginning, but soon becomes > > pleasant as it leads to greater and greater bliss and benefit. Our > > disciplines are not about the discomfort they cause at first, but > > about the blessings they engender. Life in the service of life. > > > > Part of the problem with this idea of sacrifice, is that most of us > > see it only from the perspective of an unenlightened ego. One of the > > fascinating aspects of the experience of a flood of sattwa guna is > > that, for many things, the experience of pleasure and pain get > > shifted. What was before experienced as pleasant is now understood to > > be painful, and visa versa. Enlightened people just don't experience > > the pairs of opposites the same way we do. > > > > Meister Eckhart, a sixteenth century Christian mystic even went so > > far as to say that Jesus didn't really suffer on the cross in the > > same way that we often imagine he did, but rather derived great joy > > from this ultimate act of sacrifice for the sake of others. > > > > The Goddess Chinnamasta severs her own head, offering her own life's- > > blood for the nourishment of the two Goddesses at her side. Suryadeva > > constantly shines forth life for the earth. Agnideva brings light and > > warmth, and is the life-force of every living creature. For these > > great beings, service is their very nature, their reason for > > existence. So it is with the gurudeva, whose life is service to the > > students under her care, as well as to the world. So it is with the > > masters in the Himalayas and other places, whose days are taken up > > with watching and helping the mass of humanity who do not even know > > they exist. > > > > All of these great beings, these high examples of service, lead lives > > we would find entail great sacrifice. Yet for them, I suspect, there > > is only great joy in the service. > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > , "nitya_ma" <nitya_ma> wrote: > > > Namaste, everyone > > > Recently I was thinking about sacrifice, and how central it is to > > the teachings > > > and practices we have, and recently there have been several > > discussion > > > about homa, a distinct form of sacrifice and tapasya. > > > I would like to put a question out there for discussion--what do > > people believe > > > about sacrifice? what is your understanding? how is it intimately > > a part of who > > > we are (this I believe)? > > > What are we doing when we perform a sacred fire sacrifice? > > > One of my most favorite chants is in the Rudrastadyayai, Chapter 8. > > > In this powerful and beautiful chant, we acknowledge all that is > > Me, all that is > > > in me, and in extolling that, we say, "by means of sacrifice I > > conceive that all is > > > within me." > > > What feelings come in you when you read this? > > > My intuition is that it is kind of a "neti, neti." That as we give > > away all, as we > > > surrender all, we realize all, and know that we are that-- nothing > > and > > > everything. This must be bliss, and complete and utter peace. > > > Hara hara Mahadev! > > > > > > Nitya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 Latha, Yes. That's a good definition of sadhana: the freeing of blocks. It is said that even the most solitary of sadhanas benefits all creation, though I do not really have a satisfying understanding of this. Chris , "Latha Nanda" <lathananda> wrote: > Namaste Nitya and Chris, > > I have been enjoying your conversation and wanted to jump in to add > my 2 cents. > > When I want to change from a current state to a preferred state, it > calls for a change in attitude and a change in activity. > > Some attitudes and activity I have to give up and this I define > as 'sacrifice'. > > This is true for any change , from mundane life to spiritual life. > > In mundane life it may be giving up a favorite food to realise a goal > like losing weight. > > In spiritual life it may be giving up an attachment that blocks my > spiritual growth. > > So I look at sacrifice not as something that I have to give up, but a > block that has to be freed , so that God can make his presence felt > more in my life. > > JAI MAA > Latha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2004 Report Share Posted January 24, 2004 I found this interesting parable on sacrifice on the web. It is titled "The Mother's Trick" My acknowledgement and thanks to the Divine Life Society. ================================================================ A mother was trying to give an ounce of bitter medicine to her child. However much she might caress and cajole the child, he would not take the medicine. She hit upon a wonderful idea. She placed a sweet 'laddu' before the child and said: "If you take this medicine, I will give you the laddu." At once the child drank the medicine. As the medicine removed the effect of the disease and gave him abundant energy, he ran away in great joy, even forgetting the 'laddu'. If you tell a man, "Please do this Yajna (sacrifice)", he will not do, because he seeks pleasure through every action. Therefore, the Vedas offer Svarga, etc., as rewards for sacrifices. When man performs the sacrifices, his heart is purified and gradually wisdom dawns in him. He does not even bother any more for Svarga and the finite happiness there. In Supreme Bliss he gets liberated. ================================================================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Latha, Just like this story, it is said that when one attains the bliss of samadhi, all the pains of life, the years of effort, of sadhana, all become less than nothing in an instant, and the current state of bliss, the simplest and most natural thing in the world. I think that's why people like Maa say "Wake-up! Wake-up!" as if all we have to do is open our eyes, while to us it seems like throwing grapes at a brick wall and crying "Break! Break!" Chris , "Latha Nanda" <lathananda> wrote: > I found this interesting parable on sacrifice on the web. It is > titled "The Mother's Trick" My acknowledgement and thanks to the > Divine Life Society. > > ================================================================ > > A mother was trying to give an ounce of bitter medicine to her child. > However much she might caress and cajole the child, he would not take > the medicine. She hit upon a wonderful idea. She placed a > sweet 'laddu' before the child and said: "If you take this medicine, > I will give you the laddu." At once the child drank the medicine. As > the medicine removed the effect of the disease and gave him abundant > energy, he ran away in great joy, even forgetting the 'laddu'. > > If you tell a man, "Please do this Yajna (sacrifice)", he will not > do, because he seeks pleasure through every action. Therefore, the > Vedas offer Svarga, etc., as rewards for sacrifices. When man > performs the sacrifices, his heart is purified and gradually wisdom > dawns in him. He does not even bother any more for Svarga and the > finite happiness there. In Supreme Bliss he gets liberated. > > > ================================================================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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