for Chris Kirner and others as well - about matter of Vama-naya

[Guest guest]

93 My greetings to U, brother, and to all those present here!

 

"Come forth, o children, under the stars, & take your fill of love!"

(Liber AL, 1.12)

 

, "Chris Kirner"

<chriskirner1956> wrote:

> Despite the reality that this world is all Divine Mother, there is

a difference between a worldly life and a spiritual one. Swamiji

says that first one makes a goal, and then measures his actions

against it - is this action going to further my goal?

 

Exactly true. The difference is made by Ur INTENTION, sankalpa. To

act for Ur ego is worldly, to act for God is spiritual.

> In the case of sex, the answer is almost certainly no. All of the

> higher animals engage in sex, and they are unable to attain

> enlightenment. If one's goal is to enjoy sex one does not need a

> human body, any body will do. Only for sadhana is a human body a

> necessity.

 

Well, in this U're wrong. Animals DO NOT enjoy sex, they are simply

driven in it by their instinct. The aim is only procreation and not

enjoyment. They have no experience of love...

Curious enough, same stuff is with human beings. If U have sex only

to get children, it is animalistic. If U have sex for Ur own

pleasure, it is little more human, however egoistic. If U have sex

to make Ur beloved happy and do it with love for her and Devi, it is

spiritual.

> Understand, I am not saying there is anything wrong with enjoying

> sex. I'm saying one should be clear about just what it is they are

> doing, and why. If one wishes to enjoy sex for enjoyment's sake,

> there is nothing wrong with that, I think.

 

Agree. Nothing wrong, but nothing spiritual as well. Physiological

action as many other.

 

But as with the other four

> primitive fountains food, sleep, and self-preservation, if one's

goal is spiritual, the sexual drive needs to be purified and

regulated.

 

IMHO better to say that intention is to be purified, and sex -

consacrated with Love.

As food is to be taken after offering it to God, as prasada, same

with sexual enjoyment.

Problem is not enjoyment - God made us to enjoy - but our ego. When

we purify our hearts, our intentions become not selfish, but God-

pointed. This is called vikalpa-shuddhi.

> There are those now who are seeking to use this innate drive and

> source of pleasure for their own selfish gain by deluding others

into believing they can attain high spiritual states simply by

indulging their sexual desires.

 

This stupid thing i never said. Shiva condemns this point of view in

Kularnava and other Tantras. But He is condemning opposite position

(that sex is a sin or useless) as well.

Sex itslef never do anything, it indulges bodies only. Sexual love

may bring U to divine Love. "Kama is purified by Prema, but without

Kama no Prema comes" (from sahajiya-vaishnava Scripture).

> I admit to ignorance about this subject. I have little

authoritative direct experience upon which to draw, but from what I

have gleaned from authoritative sources, there is indeed a sadhana

which involves physical maithunya, but it is only for the very

advanced, only for that final purification of the vestiges of the

current of sexuality, which flows very deeply.

 

What U speak is correct partly in context of natha-system (aka hatha-

yoga), i mean vajroli-amaroli mudras.

I try to show U kaula approach. "ONLY LOVE SAVES". It cannot

be "practised"! If U love a woman, this may bring U to God. Sexual

union is a necessary part of relationships, but not more than a part

(i meam physical one). If U do not love, sex will not help U (as

well as any practises)...

 

It is an act which is completely devoid of

> lust. A condition which most people would find hard even to

imagine.

 

It depends on what we call "lust". I use this word as a

correspondence to "kAma". Thus lust IS present. Not only in human,

but Devi Herself - She is called Kameshvari, Kamakalavilasini etc.

Lust is an attraction of two. I understand that in society this word

has a bit "dirty" meaning, but it's not our problem :-).

 

Believe me, i have got some experience and theoretical knowledge as

well. I love... :-)

> It is a purely spiritual act which simply happens to involve two

> physical bodies.

 

Just do not think that it should be something lacking feelings etc

LOL. It is spiritual, and due to it Ur feelings reach their

extreme...

> For those of us who engage in sex for pleasure, sex can be used in

> the service of spirituality, as can any other activity. But it is

> important to place it within the context of one's complete

sadhana, one's goal.

 

Exactly right. One of dangers of tantrism is a possibility to make

in its name all sort of nonsense. But there's no protection from

fools. Only one, who is seeking God, will find HIM.

 

Love is the law, love under will.

 

With love and prayer,

A.