Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Namaste All , Yesterday, Swamiji was telling us an incident ( was it from Ramakrishna ? cant remember) and I was wondering what your responses were... Two disciples were on a ferry on their way to meet their Guru. The boatman made some disparaging remarks on the Guru. One of the disciples kept silent. The other fought tooth and nail to defend the Guru. They reached the ashram ,and the all-knowing Guru wanted to know what had happened. The silent disciple told of the boatman's remarks and said that he had kept quiet in reply. The Guru scolded this disciple. Why had he not defended his Guru ? And he turned towards the other disciple. The fighting disciple said that he had defended the good name of the Guru and had given as good as he had got. The Guru scolded this disciple. Why had he gotten so riled and let the remarks upset him ? --------Swamiji stopped the story here . And we had asked him what was the right answer , if keeping silent as well as fighting back were wrong. I will give his answer in my next post, but I am curious to know what you think the right answer to be. Your informed , discerning , well judged opinions please ? JAI MAA Latha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 i don't know. this is a tricky one, oh latha! here goes. if someone dissed maa, for example. what would i hope to do. maa is attacked verbally. do nothing, or make an explanation how the attack is untrue. maa is attacked physically, or threatened. that is different. bottom line, keeping silent and fighting back are not the only choices. there is also, using logic and words, without stress, or loss of respect ... this might work when the boatman is civilized enough to respond. when the boatman does not have this level of culture, it is sometimes necessary to fight back, to defend one you love ... but you have to be very clever, so clever you might act beyond logic to intuit the boatman's mental state. honor is nothing, actual safety is another matter. people throw words around all the time, on this ferry from life to death. what of it? ok, here is the answer: don't be silent; don't fight; LAUGH!!! [or love.] this is the ultimate jujitsu. we ideally act from a mixture of humor, logic, and depth of feeling. this will determine spontaneous and effective action. we can only develop this by intuiting our own divinity, being prudent with resources of all sorts, thus maximizing our own capacity and energy. then we know what to do without doubt or second guessing ... in other words, no confusion. yet another perspective says: it all depends on the state of consciousness of the devotee at the moment. he is LOVE and devotion ... he might have to fight ... he is centered on the FORMLESS ... he will not fight ... in this case, EITHER ACTION WOULD BE TRUE. getting upset would always have to be wrong. being silent is alright, only if the mind is truly silent, or maintaining a sankalpa, but not if the mind is holding fear. in this case, EITHER ACTION WOULD BE WRONG. the lila includes us as both guru, students, and boatmen. there is no right or wrong, until we apply a specific code on the action. since our "code" is god, and good thoughts, this is the only way we can evaluate action. we must know the inner states of these 2 students before we can judge them. another way to determine the right/wrongness of an action is, to examine circumstance. was this guru a 200 lb. muscle man and the boatman a weakling? no reason to get riled and defend. was this guru a small woman that is ill or infirm and the boatman a bully? better speak up. steve c. , "Latha Nanda" <lathananda> wrote: > Namaste All , > > Yesterday, Swamiji was telling us an incident ( was it from > Ramakrishna ? cant remember) and I was wondering what your responses > were... > > Two disciples were on a ferry on their way to meet their Guru. The > boatman made some disparaging remarks on the Guru. > > One of the disciples kept silent. The other fought tooth and nail to > defend the Guru. > > They reached the ashram ,and the all-knowing Guru wanted to know > what had happened. > > The silent disciple told of the boatman's remarks and said that he > had kept quiet in reply. > > The Guru scolded this disciple. Why had he not defended his Guru ? > And he turned towards the other disciple. > > The fighting disciple said that he had defended the good name of the > Guru and had given as good as he had got. > > The Guru scolded this disciple. Why had he gotten so riled and let > the remarks upset him ? > > --------Swamiji stopped the story here . > > And we had asked him what was the right answer , if keeping silent > as well as fighting back were wrong. I will give his answer in my > next post, but I am curious to know what you think the right answer > to be. > > Your informed , discerning , well judged opinions please ? > > JAI MAA > Latha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 The right answer is there is no right answer. - Latha Nanda Monday, April 12, 2004 7:00 PM What is the right answer ? Namaste All ,Yesterday, Swamiji was telling us an incident ( was it from Ramakrishna ? cant remember) and I was wondering what your responses were...Two disciples were on a ferry on their way to meet their Guru. The boatman made some disparaging remarks on the Guru.One of the disciples kept silent. The other fought tooth and nail to defend the Guru.They reached the ashram ,and the all-knowing Guru wanted to know what had happened.The silent disciple told of the boatman's remarks and said that he had kept quiet in reply.The Guru scolded this disciple. Why had he not defended his Guru ? And he turned towards the other disciple.The fighting disciple said that he had defended the good name of the Guru and had given as good as he had got.The Guru scolded this disciple. Why had he gotten so riled and let the remarks upset him ?--------Swamiji stopped the story here .And we had asked him what was the right answer , if keeping silent as well as fighting back were wrong. I will give his answer in my next post, but I am curious to know what you think the right answer to be.Your informed , discerning , well judged opinions please ?JAI MAALatha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 that is good, brian. and i agree there is some synchronicity at work, as i was also thinking of this very subject today, and i admit, i wondered why, as this is not an issue generally on my mind. pranams, steve , "Brian McKee" <brian@s...> wrote: > The answer is to not react. If the first disciple was silent because he was ashamed or embarrassed, then he failed by reacting. If the second disciple argued and defended because he was angry and upset, then he failed by reacting. The proper realization would be to understand that the ferryman simply did not know the truth and accept that for what it is.At the moment of non-reaction, intuition / soul / Maa could argue or say nothing, it would not matter at that point, the mind would be still. It reminds me of a story Krista heard from Rev O'Brien this weekend. This is synchronicity at work A ship Captain was steering his ship in heavy fog, at night. He was following all procedures, doing the best that he could under the circumstances. Then, in the distance he saw another ship's light beacon, it was heading straight toward the captain's ship. He sounded his fog horn and turned the ship starboard to pass on the right as is the custom of the open sea, but as he did, he noticed the other ship turned to port, still on a collision course. The Captain sounded his horn again and turned to port attempting to miss a collision. And the other ship turned starboard, directly onto a collision course. Time and time again the Captain attempted to avoid the collision and time and time again his attempts were foiled by the other ship. Ultimately the ships collided and the Captain was furious. "What incompetence! What arrogance! As if he wanted to crash!" He stormed over the the other ship while his men assessed the damage, when he arrived on the bridge, he found it empty. There was no one else piloting the other ship. People who hurt us are unpiloted ships. People who say less than noble things are unpiloted ships. That's my thoughts. Love, Brian"In the begining, the universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy Radio Program.--- On Mon 04/12, Latha Nanda < lathananda > wrote: Latha Nanda [ lathananda]: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 00:00:48 -0000 What is the right answer ?Namaste All ,Yesterday, Swamiji was telling us an incident ( was it from Ramakrishna ? cant remember) and I was wondering what your responses were...Two disciples were on a ferry on their way to meet their Guru. The boatman made some disparaging remarks on the Guru.One of the disciples kept silent. The other fought tooth and nail to defend the Guru.They reached the ashram ,and the all-knowing Guru wanted to know what had happened.The silent disciple told of the boatman's remarks and said that he had kept quiet in reply.The Guru scolded this disciple. Why had he not defended his Guru ? And he turned towards the other disciple.The fighting disciple said that he had defended the good name of the Guru and had given as good as he had got.The Guru scolded this disciple. Why had he gotten so riled and let the remarks upset him ?--------Swamiji stopped the story here .And we had asked him what was the right answer , if keeping silent as well as fighting back were wrong. I will give his answer in my next post, but I am curious to know what you think the right answer to be.Your informed , discerning , well judged opinions please ?JAI MAALatha------------------------ Sponsor -- -------------------~-->Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or LexmarkPrinter at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada.http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp? cid=5511http://us.click./mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/XUWolB/TM----- -------------------------------~- > Links<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:/<*> To from this group, send an email to:- <*> Your use of is subject to: > > _____________ > No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. > Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 awesome, sensitivity is beyond rules, being sensitive to the situation we know what to do, but only as we are part of the equation ... right and wrong being relative. i understand indian law accomodates to this kind of relative awareness of the situation, and there were some difficulties with the british rule over this at one time. the details of that i do not know. , "Maureen Nielson" <mnielson@n...> wrote: > The right answer is there is no right answer. > - > Latha Nanda > > Monday, April 12, 2004 7:00 PM > What is the right answer ? > > > Namaste All , > > Yesterday, Swamiji was telling us an incident ( was it from > Ramakrishna ? cant remember) and I was wondering what your responses > were... > > Two disciples were on a ferry on their way to meet their Guru. The > boatman made some disparaging remarks on the Guru. > > One of the disciples kept silent. The other fought tooth and nail to > defend the Guru. > > They reached the ashram ,and the all-knowing Guru wanted to know > what had happened. > > The silent disciple told of the boatman's remarks and said that he > had kept quiet in reply. > > The Guru scolded this disciple. Why had he not defended his Guru ? > And he turned towards the other disciple. > > The fighting disciple said that he had defended the good name of the > Guru and had given as good as he had got. > > The Guru scolded this disciple. Why had he gotten so riled and let > the remarks upset him ? > > --------Swamiji stopped the story here . > > And we had asked him what was the right answer , if keeping silent > as well as fighting back were wrong. I will give his answer in my > next post, but I am curious to know what you think the right answer > to be. > > Your informed , discerning , well judged opinions please ? > > JAI MAA > Latha > Sponsor > > > > > > > - ----------- > Links > > > / > > b.. > > > c.. Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 I have a different outlook than the responses so far. I feel that the question was "why did the guru respond to the students the way that he did?" I feel that the lesson for each student is different because each student is different. The guru answered in a way to teach each student so that they could grow spiritually. "Latha Nanda" <lathananda > Tue, 13 Apr 2004 00:00:48 -0000 What is the right answer ? Namaste All , Yesterday, Swamiji was telling us an incident ( was it from Ramakrishna ? cant remember) and I was wondering what your responses were... Two disciples were on a ferry on their way to meet their Guru. The boatman made some disparaging remarks on the Guru. One of the disciples kept silent. The other fought tooth and nail to defend the Guru. They reached the ashram ,and the all-knowing Guru wanted to know what had happened. The silent disciple told of the boatman's remarks and said that he had kept quiet in reply. The Guru scolded this disciple. Why had he not defended his Guru ? And he turned towards the other disciple. The fighting disciple said that he had defended the good name of the Guru and had given as good as he had got. The Guru scolded this disciple. Why had he gotten so riled and let the remarks upset him ? --------Swamiji stopped the story here . And we had asked him what was the right answer , if keeping silent as well as fighting back were wrong. I will give his answer in my next post, but I am curious to know what you think the right answer to be. Your informed , discerning , well judged opinions please ? JAI MAA Latha Sponsor / <?subject=Un> Terms of Service <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 oh, coolness, ardis, the right answer is different for each one. thou art wise. sorry for so many posts, but the responses i find really interesting. steve , Ardis Jackson <anandamama@e...> wrote: > I have a different outlook than the responses so far. > > I feel that the question was "why did the guru respond to the students the > way that he did?" > > I feel that the lesson for each student is different because each student is > different. The guru answered in a way to teach each student so that they > could grow spiritually. > > "Latha Nanda" <lathananda> > > Tue, 13 Apr 2004 00:00:48 -0000 > > What is the right answer ? > > > Namaste All , > > Yesterday, Swamiji was telling us an incident ( was it from > Ramakrishna ? cant remember) and I was wondering what your responses > were... > > Two disciples were on a ferry on their way to meet their Guru. The > boatman made some disparaging remarks on the Guru. > > One of the disciples kept silent. The other fought tooth and nail to > defend the Guru. > > They reached the ashram ,and the all-knowing Guru wanted to know > what had happened. > > The silent disciple told of the boatman's remarks and said that he > had kept quiet in reply. > > The Guru scolded this disciple. Why had he not defended his Guru ? > And he turned towards the other disciple. > > The fighting disciple said that he had defended the good name of the > Guru and had given as good as he had got. > > The Guru scolded this disciple. Why had he gotten so riled and let > the remarks upset him ? > > --------Swamiji stopped the story here . > > And we had asked him what was the right answer , if keeping silent > as well as fighting back were wrong. I will give his answer in my > next post, but I am curious to know what you think the right answer > to be. > > Your informed , discerning , well judged opinions please ? > > JAI MAA > Latha > Sponsor > > > > > Links > > / > > > > <? subject=Un> > > Terms of Service > <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Well dear group members , my response to Swamiji was "You cant win". But Ardis and Sadhvi gave exactly what Swamiji had replied. Swamiji said, "The meek disciple needed to speak up and the bullying disciple needed to learn to hold his tongue, so both the responses of the Guru were correct ". JAI MAA , Ardis Jackson <anandamama@e...> wrote: > Thank you for expanding on my short post. : > > > "nityashakti" <sadhvi@p...> > > Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:55:48 -0000 > > Re: What is the right answer > > > Dear List, > I think I would agree with Ardis here. The guru disciple > relationship, when it is authentic, is both personal and impersonal. > There is no such thing as "generic" teaching. With a true guru, the > disciple is guided in a very specific way, according to the lessons > he or she needs to learn in order to become more and more fully > himself or herself. One disciple might be told to go into the > kitchen and wash dishes for a very long time; another disciple might > be asked to prepare talks; still another might be told to simply > meditate for long periods every day. It depends upon what will most > benefit the disciple, what attachments need to be attended to, what > samskaras need to be brought to light. So one disiple in this > story needs to see his passivity and the fear that lies beneath it > and the other disciple needs to see his anger and the fear that lies > beneath it. ?? > sadhvi Links > > / > > > > <? subject=Un> > > Terms of Service > <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 ah so! pranams to all. bingoananda , "Latha Nanda" <lathananda> wrote: > Well dear group members , my response to Swamiji was "You cant win". > > But Ardis and Sadhvi gave exactly what Swamiji had replied. > Swamiji said, "The meek disciple needed to speak up and the bullying > disciple needed to learn to hold his tongue, so both the responses > of the Guru were correct ". > > JAI MAA > > > > > , Ardis Jackson <anandamama@e...> > wrote: > > Thank you for expanding on my short post. : > > > > > "nityashakti" <sadhvi@p...> > > > > Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:55:48 -0000 > > > > Re: What is the right answer > > > > > > Dear List, > > I think I would agree with Ardis here. The guru disciple > > relationship, when it is authentic, is both personal and > impersonal. > > There is no such thing as "generic" teaching. With a true guru, the > > disciple is guided in a very specific way, according to the lessons > > he or she needs to learn in order to become more and more fully > > himself or herself. One disciple might be told to go into the > > kitchen and wash dishes for a very long time; another disciple > might > > be asked to prepare talks; still another might be told to simply > > meditate for long periods every day. It depends upon what will most > > benefit the disciple, what attachments need to be attended to, what > > samskaras need to be brought to light. So one disiple in this > > story needs to see his passivity and the fear that lies beneath it > > and the other disciple needs to see his anger and the fear that > lies > > beneath it. ?? > > sadhvi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > / > > > > > > > > <? > subject=Un> > > > > Terms of Service > > <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Hi Bingoananda, I know someone named Turtleananda. He has a nose like a turtle and a wonderful sense of humor. Ardis "bingo_ridley" <sconnor (AT) austin (DOT) rr.com> Tue, 13 Apr 2004 19:19:49 -0000 Re: What is the right answer ? ah so! pranams to all. bingoananda , "Latha Nanda" <lathananda> wrote: > Well dear group members , my response to Swamiji was "You cant win". > > But Ardis and Sadhvi gave exactly what Swamiji had replied. > Swamiji said, "The meek disciple needed to speak up and the bullying > disciple needed to learn to hold his tongue, so both the responses > of the Guru were correct ". > > JAI MAA > > > > > , Ardis Jackson <anandamama@e...> > wrote: > > Thank you for expanding on my short post. : > > > > > "nityashakti" <sadhvi@p...> > > > > Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:55:48 -0000 > > > > Re: What is the right answer > > > > > > Dear List, > > I think I would agree with Ardis here. The guru disciple > > relationship, when it is authentic, is both personal and > impersonal. > > There is no such thing as "generic" teaching. With a true guru, the > > disciple is guided in a very specific way, according to the lessons > > he or she needs to learn in order to become more and more fully > > himself or herself. One disciple might be told to go into the > > kitchen and wash dishes for a very long time; another disciple > might > > be asked to prepare talks; still another might be told to simply > > meditate for long periods every day. It depends upon what will most > > benefit the disciple, what attachments need to be attended to, what > > samskaras need to be brought to light. So one disiple in this > > story needs to see his passivity and the fear that lies beneath it > > and the other disciple needs to see his anger and the fear that > lies > > beneath it. ?? > > sadhvi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > / > > > > > > > > <? > subject=Un> > > > > Terms of Service > > <> . / <?subject=Un> Terms of Service <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 i think you, he, and i should meet and share a pot of oolong tea! [btw i credit shree lathananda with inventing this name] signed, bingoananda , Ardis Jackson <anandamama@e...> wrote: > Hi Bingoananda, > I know someone named Turtleananda. He has a nose like a turtle and a > wonderful sense of humor. > Ardis > > "bingo_ridley" <sconnor@a...> > > Tue, 13 Apr 2004 19:19:49 -0000 > > Re: What is the right answer ? > > > ah so! pranams to all. > > bingoananda > > , "Latha Nanda" <lathananda> > wrote: > > Well dear group members , my response to Swamiji was "You cant > win". > > > > But Ardis and Sadhvi gave exactly what Swamiji had replied. > > Swamiji said, "The meek disciple needed to speak up and the > bullying > > disciple needed to learn to hold his tongue, so both the responses > > of the Guru were correct ". > > > > JAI MAA > > > > > > > > > > , Ardis Jackson > <anandamama@e...> > > wrote: > > > Thank you for expanding on my short post. : > > > > > > > "nityashakti" <sadhvi@p...> > > > > > > Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:55:48 -0000 > > > > > > Re: What is the right answer > > > > > > > > > Dear List, > > > I think I would agree with Ardis here. The guru disciple > > > relationship, when it is authentic, is both personal and > > impersonal. > > > There is no such thing as "generic" teaching. With a true guru, > the > > > disciple is guided in a very specific way, according to the > lessons > > > he or she needs to learn in order to become more and more fully > > > himself or herself. One disciple might be told to go into the > > > kitchen and wash dishes for a very long time; another disciple > > might > > > be asked to prepare talks; still another might be told to simply > > > meditate for long periods every day. It depends upon what will > most > > > benefit the disciple, what attachments need to be attended to, > what > > > samskaras need to be brought to light. So one disiple in this > > > story needs to see his passivity and the fear that lies beneath > it > > > and the other disciple needs to see his anger and the fear that > > lies > > > beneath it. ?? > > > sadhvi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > > > > <? > > subject=Un> > > > > > > Terms of > Service > > > <> . Links > > / > > > > <?subject=Un> > > Terms of Service > <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 I LOVE OOLONG TEA ! I have been thinking about Turtleananda quite a bit lately and wondering if I can get him to make a trip to Southern California to share his music and wisdom with my village. "bingo_ridley" <sconnor (AT) austin (DOT) rr.com> Wed, 14 Apr 2004 01:53:16 -0000 Re: What is the right answer ? i think you, he, and i should meet and share a pot of oolong tea! [btw i credit shree lathananda with inventing this name] signed, bingoananda , Ardis Jackson <anandamama@e...> wrote: > Hi Bingoananda, > I know someone named Turtleananda. He has a nose like a turtle and a > wonderful sense of humor. > Ardis > > "bingo_ridley" <sconnor@a...> > > Tue, 13 Apr 2004 19:19:49 -0000 > > Re: What is the right answer ? > > > ah so! pranams to all. > > bingoananda > > , "Latha Nanda" <lathananda> > wrote: > > Well dear group members , my response to Swamiji was "You cant > win". > > > > But Ardis and Sadhvi gave exactly what Swamiji had replied. > > Swamiji said, "The meek disciple needed to speak up and the > bullying > > disciple needed to learn to hold his tongue, so both the responses > > of the Guru were correct ". > > > > JAI MAA > > > > > > > > > > , Ardis Jackson > <anandamama@e...> > > wrote: > > > Thank you for expanding on my short post. : > > > > > > > "nityashakti" <sadhvi@p...> > > > > > > Tue, 13 Apr 2004 13:55:48 -0000 > > > > > > Re: What is the right answer > > > > > > > > > Dear List, > > > I think I would agree with Ardis here. The guru disciple > > > relationship, when it is authentic, is both personal and > > impersonal. > > > There is no such thing as "generic" teaching. With a true guru, > the > > > disciple is guided in a very specific way, according to the > lessons > > > he or she needs to learn in order to become more and more fully > > > himself or herself. One disciple might be told to go into the > > > kitchen and wash dishes for a very long time; another disciple > > might > > > be asked to prepare talks; still another might be told to simply > > > meditate for long periods every day. It depends upon what will > most > > > benefit the disciple, what attachments need to be attended to, > what > > > samskaras need to be brought to light. So one disiple in this > > > story needs to see his passivity and the fear that lies beneath > it > > > and the other disciple needs to see his anger and the fear that > > lies > > > beneath it. ?? > > > sadhvi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > > > > <? > > subject=Un> > > > > > > Terms of > Service > > > <> . > > > > > > > Links > > / > > > > <?subject=Un> > > Terms of Service > <> . / <?subject=Un> Terms of Service <> . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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