Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Hi All, I just wanted to say a few words about this verse. The latter portion, "don't debate idle philosophies with intellectuals," is often used to justify or support the premise that it is wrong to intelligently discuss issues related to faith, scriptures, and practices. The underlying theme is usually the mistaken belief that devotion and intellect are somehow mutually exclusive. This, to my way of thinking, is an unfortunate misunderstanding. All of us, I think, have at one time or another fallen into the trap of pride in learning -- the feeling that we, or our understanding of Truth, is(are) superior to another's. It is an attribute of ego that no matter how ignorant or educated we are, we always believe ourselves to be greater than some other; the ego feeds itself on this idea. This ego-centered position leads to the kind of debate this scripture warns us about. But there is another kind of discussion. This kind of discussion is not centered in the lower ego. This kind of discussion does not seek to demonstrate superior anything. This kind of discussion has only one purpose, to support continuing growth of knowledge of the Beloved, in all Her guises and operations. While it is true that anything which can be spoken is samsara, and not Truth, it is also true that knowledge to the limits of samsara can be helpful as a foundation to moving beyond. The rest of the verse is about this process. It says to "contemplate" and "take refuge inthe great words of wisdom." It says to "search for the real inner meanings." This describes a process of delving deeply into the mysteries of Divine Mother, of turning samsara into turiya. How can devotion be far away? Shree Maa says something like this (Parvati posted it once, some time ago), "If you abstract an idea far enough, you'll get an inspiration." So, how do you know whether your discussion of spiritual matters falls into the "good" category, or the "bad?" Look into your heart, and see who's there looking back at you. Chris , "Latha Nanda" <lathananda> wrote: > > JAI MAA > JAI SHIVA > > This is the next verse from the Sadhana Panchakam > > ================================================================== > > Always contemplate the great words of wisdom , > take refuge in the great words of wisdom, > and stay far away from the bondages of the soul, > and search for the real inner meanings of the texts of wisdom. > > I AM ONE WITH GOD, always maintain this attitude. > Make renunciation of the many thoughts of the mind, > and leave the egotism of your body, > and dont debate idle philosophies with intellectuals. > > ========================================================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Intelectuals enjoy toying with ideas. Maa enjoys toying with devotees' ideas. Who is the doer? If the ideas are Maa's fodder, she is the doer. If the ideas are posessed by the intelect, then they belong to the ego. The thoughts are the same, the difference is: are they owned and identified? Brian --- On Thu 10/28, Chris Kirner < chriskirner1956 =""> wrote: Chris Kirner [ chriskirner1956 ] Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:33:16 -0000 Dont Debate Idle Philosophies With Intellectuals Hi All,I just wanted to say a few words about this verse. The latter portion,"don't debate idle philosophies with intellectuals," is often used tojustify or support the premise that it is wrong to intelligentlydiscuss issues related to faith, scriptures, and practices. Theunderlying theme is usually the mistaken belief that devotion andintellect are somehow mutually exclusive. This, to my way of thinking,is an unfortunate misunderstanding.All of us, I think, have at one time or another fallen into the trapof pride in learning -- the feeling that we, or our understanding ofTruth, is(are) superior to another's. It is an attribute of ego thatno matter how ignorant or educated we are, we always believe ourselvesto be greater than some other; the ego feeds itself on this idea. Thisego-centered position leads to the kind of debate this scripture warnsus about.But there is another kind of discussion. This kind of discussion isnot centered in the lower ego. This kind of discussion does not seekto demonstrate superior anything. This kind of discussion has only onepurpose, to support continuing growth of knowledge of the Beloved, inall Her guises and operations.While it is true that anything which can be spoken is samsara, and notTruth, it is also true that knowledge to the limits of samsara can behelpful as a foundation to moving beyond. The rest of the verse isabout this process. It says to "contemplate" and "take refuge inthegreat words of wisdom." It says to "search for the real innermeanings." This describes a process of delving deeply into themysteries of Divine Mother, of turning samsara into turiya. How candevotion be far away?Shree Maa says something like this (Parvati posted it once, some timeago), "If you abstract an idea far enough, you'll get an inspiration."So, how do you know whether your discussion of spiritual matters fallsinto the "good" category, or the "bad?" Look into your heart, and seewho's there looking back at you.Chris, "Latha Nanda" wrote:> > JAI MAA> JAI SHIVA> > This is the next verse from the Sadhana Panchakam> > ==================================================================> > Always contemplate the great words of wisdom , > take refuge in the great words of wisdom,> and stay far away from the bondages of the soul,> and search for the real inner meanings of the texts of wisdom.> > I AM ONE WITH GOD, always maintain this attitude.> Make renunciation of the many thoughts of the mind,> and leave the egotism of your body, > and dont debate idle philosophies with intellectuals.> > =========================================================------------------------ Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar.Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/XUWolB/TM--~-> Links< *=""> /< *=""> To from this group, send an email to: < *=""> Your No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2004 Report Share Posted October 28, 2004 Dear Chris, thanks for your insightful discussion. helpful. For me, though the "intellectual" element has impact, it is the phrase before it which stands out there: "debate idle philosophies." Debate... trying to "win" for your side. Discuss and explore together - sure, but don't debate. Idle... it's not going anywhere no much how much juice you pour into it. that is wasteful. Philosophies... here again there is the sense of vagueness rather than seeking truth together. In these five verses, shankar Acharya is giving us such practical assistance for out spiritual walk. Frankly,it is much too common for us to slide right down that path of debating idle philosophies with intellectuals, so keeping this warning before us should help us avoid getting sidetracked and wasting a lot of energy and time. Jai Maa! jayadeva , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956> wrote: > > > Hi All, > > I just wanted to say a few words about this verse. The latter portion, > "don't debate idle philosophies with intellectuals," is often used to > justify or support the premise that it is wrong to intelligently > discuss issues related to faith, scriptures, and practices. The > underlying theme is usually the mistaken belief that devotion and > intellect are somehow mutually exclusive. This, to my way of thinking, > is an unfortunate misunderstanding. > > All of us, I think, have at one time or another fallen into the trap > of pride in learning -- the feeling that we, or our understanding of > Truth, is(are) superior to another's. It is an attribute of ego that > no matter how ignorant or educated we are, we always believe ourselves > to be greater than some other; the ego feeds itself on this idea. This > ego-centered position leads to the kind of debate this scripture warns > us about. > > But there is another kind of discussion. This kind of discussion is > not centered in the lower ego. This kind of discussion does not seek > to demonstrate superior anything. This kind of discussion has only one > purpose, to support continuing growth of knowledge of the Beloved, in > all Her guises and operations. > > While it is true that anything which can be spoken is samsara, and not > Truth, it is also true that knowledge to the limits of samsara can be > helpful as a foundation to moving beyond. The rest of the verse is > about this process. It says to "contemplate" and "take refuge inthe > great words of wisdom." It says to "search for the real inner > meanings." This describes a process of delving deeply into the > mysteries of Divine Mother, of turning samsara into turiya. How can > devotion be far away? > > Shree Maa says something like this (Parvati posted it once, some time > ago), "If you abstract an idea far enough, you'll get an inspiration." > > So, how do you know whether your discussion of spiritual matters falls > into the "good" category, or the "bad?" Look into your heart, and see > who's there looking back at you. > > Chris > > > > , "Latha Nanda" <lathananda> wrote: > > > > JAI MAA > > JAI SHIVA > > > > This is the next verse from the Sadhana Panchakam > > > > ================================================================== > > > > Always contemplate the great words of wisdom , > > take refuge in the great words of wisdom, > > and stay far away from the bondages of the soul, > > and search for the real inner meanings of the texts of wisdom. > > > > I AM ONE WITH GOD, always maintain this attitude. > > Make renunciation of the many thoughts of the mind, > > and leave the egotism of your body, > > and dont debate idle philosophies with intellectuals. > > > > ========================================================= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 Well now, see, I think a devotee can love ideas as well. A new idea can open the door to beautiful new areas of contemplation and new depths of worship. Ideas are the fuel of the fire of devotion. Even as simple but profound an idea as "I am loved." Chris , "Brian McKee" <brian@s...> wrote: > I feel the difference between intelectuals and devotees is fairly easilly seen. > > Intelectuals enjoy toying with ideas. > > Maa enjoys toying with devotees' ideas. > > Who is the doer? If the ideas are Maa's fodder, she is the doer. If the ideas are posessed by the intelect, then they belong to the ego. > > The thoughts are the same, the difference is: are they owned and identified? > > Brian > > --- On Thu 10/28, Chris Kirner wrote: > Chris Kirner [ chriskirner1956] > > Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:33:16 -0000 > Dont Debate Idle Philosophies With Intellectuals > > Hi All,I just wanted to say a few words about this verse. The latter portion,"don't debate idle philosophies with intellectuals," is often used tojustify or support the premise that it is wrong to intelligentlydiscuss issues related to faith, scriptures, and practices. Theunderlying theme is usually the mistaken belief that devotion andintellect are somehow mutually exclusive. This, to my way of thinking,is an unfortunate misunderstanding.All of us, I think, have at one time or another fallen into the trapof pride in learning -- the feeling that we, or our understanding ofTruth, is(are) superior to another's. It is an attribute of ego thatno matter how ignorant or educated we are, we always believe ourselvesto be greater than some other; the ego feeds itself on this idea. Thisego-centered position leads to the kind of debate this scripture warnsus about.But there is another kind of discussion. This kind of discussion isnot centered in the lower ego. This kind of discussion does not seekto demonstrate superior anything. This kind of discussion has only onepurpose, to support continuing growth of knowledge of the Beloved, inall Her guises and operations.While it is true that anything which can be spoken is samsara, and notTruth, it is also true that knowledge to the limits of samsara can behelpful as a foundation to moving beyond. The rest of the verse isabout this process. It says to "contemplate" and "take refuge inthegreat words of wisdom." It says to "search for the real innermeanings." This describes a process of delving deeply into themysteries of Divine Mother, of turning samsara into turiya. How candevotion be far away?Shree Maa says something like this (Parvati posted it once, some timeago), "If you abstract an idea far enough, you'll get an inspiration."So, how do you know whether your discussion of spiritual matters fallsinto the "good" category, or the "bad?" Look into your heart, and seewho's there looking back at you.Chris, "Latha Nanda" wrote:> > JAI MAA> JAI SHIVA> > This is the next verse from the Sadhana Panchakam> > ==================================================================> > Always contemplate the great words of wisdom , > take refuge in the great words of wisdom,> and stay far away from the bondages of the soul,> and search for the real inner meanings of the texts of wisdom.> > I AM ONE WITH GOD, always maintain this attitude.> Make renunciation of the many thoughts of the mind,> and leave the egotism of your body, > and dont debate idle philosophies with intellectuals.> > =========================================================-----------------------\ - Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar.Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free!http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/XUWolB/TM-------------------\ ----------------~-> Links / To from this group, send an email to: Your > > _____________ > No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. > Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 i read somewhere the young sankara trounced his older opponents in dharma debates where upon they recognized his greatness. one can only wonder what those debates were like. s Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2004 Report Share Posted October 29, 2004 The idea, "I am loved" is nothing compared to the reality that is love. Brian At 08:02 PM 10/28/2004, you wrote: >Well now, see, I think a devotee can love ideas as well. A new idea >can open the door to beautiful new areas of contemplation and new >depths of worship. Ideas are the fuel of the fire of devotion. Even as >simple but profound an idea as "I am loved." > >Chris > > >, "Brian McKee" <brian@s...> wrote: > > I feel the difference between intelectuals and devotees is fairly >easilly seen. > > > > Intelectuals enjoy toying with ideas. > > > > Maa enjoys toying with devotees' ideas. > > > > Who is the doer? If the ideas are Maa's fodder, she is the doer. If >the ideas are posessed by the intelect, then they belong to the ego. > > > > The thoughts are the same, the difference is: are they owned and >identified? > > > > Brian > > > > --- On Thu 10/28, Chris Kirner wrote: > > Chris Kirner [ chriskirner1956] > > > > Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:33:16 -0000 > > Dont Debate Idle Philosophies With Intellectuals > > > > Hi All,I just wanted to say a few words about this verse. The latter >portion,"don't debate idle philosophies with intellectuals," is often >used tojustify or support the premise that it is wrong to >intelligentlydiscuss issues related to faith, scriptures, and >practices. Theunderlying theme is usually the mistaken belief that >devotion andintellect are somehow mutually exclusive. This, to my way >of thinking,is an unfortunate misunderstanding.All of us, I think, >have at one time or another fallen into the trapof pride in learning >-- the feeling that we, or our understanding ofTruth, is(are) superior >to another's. It is an attribute of ego thatno matter how ignorant or >educated we are, we always believe ourselvesto be greater than some >other; the ego feeds itself on this idea. Thisego-centered position >leads to the kind of debate this scripture warnsus about.But there is >another kind of discussion. This kind of discussion isnot centered in >the lower ego. This kind of discussion does not seekto demonstrate >superior anything. This kind of discussion has only onepurpose, to >support continuing growth of knowledge of the Beloved, inall Her >guises and operations.While it is true that anything which can be >spoken is samsara, and notTruth, it is also true that knowledge to the >limits of samsara can behelpful as a foundation to moving beyond. The >rest of the verse isabout this process. It says to "contemplate" and >"take refuge inthegreat words of wisdom." It says to "search for >the real innermeanings." This describes a process of delving deeply >into themysteries of Divine Mother, of turning samsara into turiya. >How candevotion be far away?Shree Maa says something like this >(Parvati posted it once, some timeago), "If you abstract an idea far >enough, you'll get an inspiration."So, how do you know whether your >discussion of spiritual matters fallsinto the "good" category, or the >"bad?" Look into your heart, and seewho's there looking back at >you.Chris, "Latha Nanda" wrote:> > >JAI MAA> JAI SHIVA> > This is the next verse from the Sadhana >Panchakam> > >==================================================================> > >Always contemplate the great words of wisdom , > take refuge in the >great words of wisdom,> and stay far away from the bondages of the >soul,> and search for the real inner meanings of the texts of wisdom.> > > I AM ONE WITH GOD, always maintain this attitude.> Make renunciation >of the many thoughts of the mind,> and leave the egotism of your body, > > and dont debate idle philosophies with intellectuals.> > >=========================================================----------------------\ -- > Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of >pop-up ads. Companion Toolbar.Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it >for >free!http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/XUWolB/TM------------------\ -----------------~-> > Links >/ To from this >group, send an email to: >Your > > > > > _____________ > > No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding. > > Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com > > > > Links > > > > > > > > > >--- >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release 10/25/2004 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.783 / Virus Database: 529 - Release 10/25/2004 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2004 Report Share Posted October 31, 2004 One type of idea is the path of life, the other is the path of death. All ideas reside within the realm of samsara, as does all discussion of philosophy. However, because we are alive in this world, we are already in samsara. Because of this, we must choose which ideas are the path of life, and which ones are the path of death. Example: study and discuss spiritual matters and philosophies - path of life. Hang out at the pub more often - path of death. We all just get to chose our path. Mother gives us the choice. We can choose! As Shree Maa once said, "Is O.K., Mother has hammer" Love to all!Chris Kirner <chriskirner1956 > wrote: Well now, see, I think a devotee can love ideas as well. A new ideacan open the door to beautiful new areas of contemplation and newdepths of worship. Ideas are the fuel of the fire of devotion. Even assimple but profound an idea as "I am loved."Chris--- In , "Brian McKee" <brian@s...> wrote:> I feel the difference between intelectuals and devotees is fairlyeasilly seen.> > Intelectuals enjoy toying with ideas.> > Maa enjoys toying with devotees' ideas.> > Who is the doer? If the ideas are Maa's fodder, she is the doer. Ifthe ideas are posessed by the intelect, then they belong to the ego.> > The thoughts are the same, the difference is: are they owned andidentified?> > Brian> > --- On Thu 10/28, Chris Kirner wrote:> Chris Kirner [ chriskirner1956]> > Thu, 28 Oct 2004 20:33:16 -0000> Dont Debate Idle Philosophies With Intellectuals> > Hi All,I just wanted to say a few words about this verse. The latterportion,"don't debate idle philosophies with intellectuals," is oftenused tojustify or support the premise that it is wrong tointelligentlydiscuss issues related to faith, scriptures, andpractices. Theunderlying theme is usually the mistaken belief thatdevotion andintellect are somehow mutually exclusive. This, to my wayof thinking,is an unfortunate misunderstanding.All of us, I think,have at one time or another fallen into the trapof pride in learning-- the feeling that we, or our understanding ofTruth, is(are) superiorto another's. It is an attribute of ego thatno matter how ignorant oreducated we are, we always believe ourselvesto be greater than someother; the ego feeds itself on this idea. Thisego-centered positionleads to the kind of debate this scripture warnsus about.But there isanother kind of discussion. This kind of discussion isnot centered inthe lower ego. This kind of discussion does not seekto demonstratesuperior anything. This kind of discussion has only onepurpose, tosupport continuing growth of knowledge of the Beloved, inall Herguises and operations.While it is true that anything which can bespoken is samsara, and notTruth, it is also true that knowledge to thelimits of samsara can behelpful as a foundation to moving beyond. Therest of the verse isabout this process. It says to "contemplate" and"take refuge inthegreat words of wisdom." It says to "search forthe real innermeanings." This describes a process of delving deeplyinto themysteries of Divine Mother, of turning samsara into turiya.How candevotion be far away?Shree Maa says something like this(Parvati posted it once, some timeago), "If you abstract an idea farenough, you'll get an inspiration."So, how do you know whether yourdiscussion of spiritual matters fallsinto the "good" category, or the"bad?" Look into your heart, and seewho's there looking back atyou.Chris--- In , "Latha Nanda" wrote:> >JAI MAA> JAI SHIVA> > This is the next verse from the SadhanaPanchakam> >==================================================================> >Always contemplate the great words of wisdom , > take refuge in thegreat words of wisdom,> and stay far away from the bondages of thesoul,> and search for the real inner meanings of the texts of wisdom.>> I AM ONE WITH GOD, always maintain this attitude.> Make renunciationof the many thoughts of the mind,> and leave the egotism of your body,> and dont debate idle philosophies with intellectuals.> >=========================================================------------------------ Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep ofpop-up ads. Companion Toolbar.Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get itforfree!http://us.click./L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/XUWolB/TM--~-> Groups Links / To from thisgroup, send an email to: Your use of is subject to: > > _____________> No banners. No pop-ups. No kidding.> Make My Way your home on the Web - http://www.myway.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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