Guest guest Posted April 30, 2005 Report Share Posted April 30, 2005 Hello everyone! 101 "Oh Great Goddess, whoever spreads or listens to gossip about the Guru will remain in the deepest conflict so long as the moon and sun shine." Whoa! How are we to receive that? We have some choices to make here. In truth, we might even participate in the unfolding and expression of truth as it travels geographically. First, is this a threat or some sort of curse on those who say bad things about the individual personhood of the Guru? At the very least, it appears to make a statement of consequence ... say bad things about the Guru, and bad things will be experienced by you. OK, hold one. We are forgetting something, and that is, the inherent question, of "who is the Guru?" And this is once again, our sticky wicket as long as we are abiding in the social mind, me vs. you, he, she, them, us. The Guru that we are interested in is not a human being. It is not a fellow who was born here and moved there and did sadhana, etc. No. The Guru is a principle, a divine principle, a great ideal, a vision, a vision of reality that we can aspire to, that some individuals, through the power of their sadhana and God's will, may have the fortune or burden to embody. If we look at the word gossip ... we are referring to basically speaking about another person negatively. We are seeing them on limited terms. This happens everyday in the office, in the home. It always seems harmless, but it brings our minds down. Any gossip then, brings conflict, because the mind is not at peace, it is participating in duality. Life does bring that to us for sure, but we can restrain ourselves from fanning the flames. The trick is to still be engaged in living and loving. I personally am wary of rules, you can't say this, you can't say that. The rules are better understood as principles, guidelines you personally adapt for your own behavior and thinking, depending on how serious you are, if it drives you to discipline your orientation. If there is someone we regard as the Guru, we have carved out a very lofty place for them in our minds. This is extremely critical for ourselves at a personal level. What happens if this person has a fall, no matter how slight or how great ... what do we do? Taking recourse to a negative battle, we will surely suffer. As always, we have to ask ourselves, what do I gain by this? What does anyone gain? Am I making the wisest move possible? If not, we of course will be learning by taking some more tough kicks, that is one of the rules of life here on earth, it is not a curse, it is more a statement of intra-personal cause and effect. Om. May all come to peace, sooner rather than later. It's not about a person, it is about the infinite way and your relationship to THAT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2005 Report Share Posted April 30, 2005 > "Oh Great Goddess, whoever spreads or listens to gossip about the Guru > will remain in the deepest conflict so long as the moon and sun > shine." Steve said : > First, is this a threat or some sort of curse on those who say bad > things about the individual personhood of the Guru? At the very least, > it appears to make a statement of consequence ... say bad things about > the Guru, and bad things will be experienced by you. Dear Steve, Thank you for posting that verse. I believe it is more a statement of fact than a curse. If I love/respect someone very much then the trust is absolute. By listening to or spreading gossip about this person, I myself sow seeds of discord within me. Then , of course I will be a house divided, in conflict with myself. I believe this is true in all the closest relationships and in this case particularly applies to the person we WANT to emulate. So I take this verse to mean, "come to my own understanding of the Guru based on my own intuition and observation, not what another person perceives thro their filters and preconceived notions" JAI GURU Nanda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2005 Report Share Posted April 30, 2005 Dear Steve, thank you for posting the verse and for your wonderfully clear comment. just a thought: The mention of the sun and the moon in the verse intrigues me. Perhaps they refer to the internal duality 'I' and 'the thought about so and so, the limited mental construction/interpretation of reality'. So that the admonition to 'not spread or listen to gossip' would mean that a limited understanding of Self (I, me, mine) and a limited understanding/presentation of the Guru (as in accepting or creating gossip about the person) are linked together, like a mirror and the reflection. Perhaps this verse tries to teach us to love the Guru as our Self and that when we understand that the Guru is our true Self, sun and moon become one. But then, perhaps sun and moon have no special meaning here at all.. with love, Henny , "Steve Connor" <sconnor@a...> wrote: > Hello everyone! > > 101 > "Oh Great Goddess, whoever spreads or listens to gossip about the Guru > will remain in the deepest conflict so long as the moon and sun > shine." > > Whoa! How are we to receive that? We have some choices to make here. > In truth, we might even participate in the unfolding and expression of > truth as it travels geographically. > > First, is this a threat or some sort of curse on those who say bad > things about the individual personhood of the Guru? At the very least, > it appears to make a statement of consequence ... say bad things about > the Guru, and bad things will be experienced by you. > > OK, hold one. We are forgetting something, and that is, the inherent > question, of "who is the Guru?" And this is once again, our sticky > wicket as long as we are abiding in the social mind, me vs. you, he, > she, them, us. > > The Guru that we are interested in is not a human being. It is not a > fellow who was born here and moved there and did sadhana, etc. No. > > The Guru is a principle, a divine principle, a great ideal, a vision, > a vision of reality that we can aspire to, that some individuals, > through the power of their sadhana and God's will, may have the > fortune or burden to embody. > > If we look at the word gossip ... we are referring to basically > speaking about another person negatively. We are seeing them on > limited terms. This happens everyday in the office, in the home. It > always seems harmless, but it brings our minds down. > > Any gossip then, brings conflict, because the mind is not at peace, it > is participating in duality. Life does bring that to us for sure, but > we can restrain ourselves from fanning the flames. The trick is to > still be engaged in living and loving. > > I personally am wary of rules, you can't say this, you can't say that. > The rules are better understood as principles, guidelines you > personally adapt for your own behavior and thinking, depending on how > serious you are, if it drives you to discipline your orientation. > > If there is someone we regard as the Guru, we have carved out a very > lofty place for them in our minds. This is extremely critical for > ourselves at a personal level. What happens if this person has a fall, > no matter how slight or how great ... what do we do? > > Taking recourse to a negative battle, we will surely suffer. As > always, we have to ask ourselves, what do I gain by this? What does > anyone gain? Am I making the wisest move possible? If not, we of > course will be learning by taking some more tough kicks, that is one > of the rules of life here on earth, it is not a curse, it is more a > statement of intra-personal cause and effect. > > Om. May all come to peace, sooner rather than later. It's not about a > person, it is about the infinite way and your relationship to THAT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2005 Report Share Posted April 30, 2005 both poetically and intuitively that makes perfect sense! , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > Dear Steve, > > thank you for posting the verse and for your wonderfully clear > comment. > > just a thought: > The mention of the sun and the moon in the verse intrigues me. Perhaps > they refer to the internal duality 'I' and 'the thought about so and > so, the limited mental construction/interpretation of reality'. So > that the admonition to 'not spread or listen to gossip' would mean > that a limited understanding of Self (I, me, mine) and a limited > understanding/presentation of the Guru (as in accepting or creating > gossip about the person) are linked together, like a mirror and the > reflection. Perhaps this verse tries to teach us to love the Guru as > our Self and that when we understand that the Guru is our true Self, > sun and moon become one. But then, perhaps sun and moon have no > special meaning here at all.. > > with love, > Henny > > > > > > , "Steve Connor" <sconnor@a...> > wrote: > > Hello everyone! > > > > 101 > > "Oh Great Goddess, whoever spreads or listens to gossip about the > Guru > > will remain in the deepest conflict so long as the moon and sun > > shine." > > > > Whoa! How are we to receive that? We have some choices to make here. > > In truth, we might even participate in the unfolding and expression > of > > truth as it travels geographically. > > > > First, is this a threat or some sort of curse on those who say bad > > things about the individual personhood of the Guru? At the very > least, > > it appears to make a statement of consequence ... say bad things > about > > the Guru, and bad things will be experienced by you. > > > > OK, hold one. We are forgetting something, and that is, the inherent > > question, of "who is the Guru?" And this is once again, our sticky > > wicket as long as we are abiding in the social mind, me vs. you, he, > > she, them, us. > > > > The Guru that we are interested in is not a human being. It is not a > > fellow who was born here and moved there and did sadhana, etc. No. > > > > The Guru is a principle, a divine principle, a great ideal, a > vision, > > a vision of reality that we can aspire to, that some individuals, > > through the power of their sadhana and God's will, may have the > > fortune or burden to embody. > > > > If we look at the word gossip ... we are referring to basically > > speaking about another person negatively. We are seeing them on > > limited terms. This happens everyday in the office, in the home. It > > always seems harmless, but it brings our minds down. > > > > Any gossip then, brings conflict, because the mind is not at peace, > it > > is participating in duality. Life does bring that to us for sure, > but > > we can restrain ourselves from fanning the flames. The trick is to > > still be engaged in living and loving. > > > > I personally am wary of rules, you can't say this, you can't say > that. > > The rules are better understood as principles, guidelines you > > personally adapt for your own behavior and thinking, depending on > how > > serious you are, if it drives you to discipline your orientation. > > > > If there is someone we regard as the Guru, we have carved out a very > > lofty place for them in our minds. This is extremely critical for > > ourselves at a personal level. What happens if this person has a > fall, > > no matter how slight or how great ... what do we do? > > > > Taking recourse to a negative battle, we will surely suffer. As > > always, we have to ask ourselves, what do I gain by this? What does > > anyone gain? Am I making the wisest move possible? If not, we of > > course will be learning by taking some more tough kicks, that is one > > of the rules of life here on earth, it is not a curse, it is more a > > statement of intra-personal cause and effect. > > > > Om. May all come to peace, sooner rather than later. It's not about > a > > person, it is about the infinite way and your relationship to THAT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 30, 2005 Report Share Posted April 30, 2005 > "Oh Great Goddess, whoever spreads or listens to gossip about the Guru> will remain in the deepest conflict so long as the moon and sun> shine."Steve said : > First, is this a threat or some sort of curse on those who say bad> things about the individual personhood of the Guru? At the very least,> it appears to make a statement of consequence ... say bad things about> the Guru, and bad things will be experienced by you.Dear Steve,Thank you for posting that verse. I believe it is more a statement of fact than a curse.If I love/respect someone very much then the trust is absolute. By listening to or spreading gossip about this person, I myself sow seeds of discord within me. Then , of course I will be a house divided, in conflict with myself.I believe this is true in all the closest relationships and in this case particularly applies to the person we WANT to emulate. So I take this verse to mean, "come to my own understanding of the Guru based on my own intuition and observation, not what another person perceives thro their filters and preconceived notions" JAI GURUNandaKalacandra dd Acesso Grátis: Internet rápida e grátis. Instale o discador agora! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 Steve, I think you hit the nail on the head. Chris , "Steve Connor" <sconnor@a...> wrote: > Hello everyone! > > 101 > "Oh Great Goddess, whoever spreads or listens to gossip about the Guru > will remain in the deepest conflict so long as the moon and sun > shine." > > > > If we look at the word gossip ... we are referring to basically > speaking about another person negatively. We are seeing them on > limited terms. This happens everyday in the office, in the home. It > always seems harmless, but it brings our minds down. > > Any gossip then, brings conflict, because the mind is not at peace, it > is participating in duality. Life does bring that to us for sure, but > we can restrain ourselves from fanning the flames. The trick is to > still be engaged in living and loving. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 Henny, Your focus on the sun and moon in this verse is interesting... I didn't give it much thought, myself, supposing it was just an analogue for the passage of time, but I think you may have something there. If there is anything that can be said about scripture, it is that it is full symbols and many levels of meaning. I wouldn't be surprised if the sun and moon are intended to evoke the essence of the guru/disciple relationship. Like the guru on a spiritual level, the sun provides us with all of our life force, all that we need to grow and enjoy life. The moon is like the perfect disciple, absorbed in total devotion to the sun (guru), always following the guru, reflecting the guru's pure light of wisdom, and constantly dripping with the nectar of pure, blissful devotion. As Steve mentioned, maintaining a negative attitude toward the guru is in opposition to this. Chris , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > Dear Steve, > > thank you for posting the verse and for your wonderfully clear > comment. > > just a thought: > The mention of the sun and the moon in the verse intrigues me. Perhaps > they refer to the internal duality 'I' and 'the thought about so and > so, the limited mental construction/interpretation of reality'. So > that the admonition to 'not spread or listen to gossip' would mean > that a limited understanding of Self (I, me, mine) and a limited > understanding/presentation of the Guru (as in accepting or creating > gossip about the person) are linked together, like a mirror and the > reflection. Perhaps this verse tries to teach us to love the Guru as > our Self and that when we understand that the Guru is our true Self, > sun and moon become one. But then, perhaps sun and moon have no > special meaning here at all.. > > with love, > Henny > > > > > > , "Steve Connor" <sconnor@a...> > wrote: > > Hello everyone! > > > > 101 > > "Oh Great Goddess, whoever spreads or listens to gossip about the > Guru > > will remain in the deepest conflict so long as the moon and sun > > shine." > > > > Whoa! How are we to receive that? We have some choices to make here. > > In truth, we might even participate in the unfolding and expression > of > > truth as it travels geographically. > > > > First, is this a threat or some sort of curse on those who say bad > > things about the individual personhood of the Guru? At the very > least, > > it appears to make a statement of consequence ... say bad things > about > > the Guru, and bad things will be experienced by you. > > > > OK, hold one. We are forgetting something, and that is, the inherent > > question, of "who is the Guru?" And this is once again, our sticky > > wicket as long as we are abiding in the social mind, me vs. you, he, > > she, them, us. > > > > The Guru that we are interested in is not a human being. It is not a > > fellow who was born here and moved there and did sadhana, etc. No. > > > > The Guru is a principle, a divine principle, a great ideal, a > vision, > > a vision of reality that we can aspire to, that some individuals, > > through the power of their sadhana and God's will, may have the > > fortune or burden to embody. > > > > If we look at the word gossip ... we are referring to basically > > speaking about another person negatively. We are seeing them on > > limited terms. This happens everyday in the office, in the home. It > > always seems harmless, but it brings our minds down. > > > > Any gossip then, brings conflict, because the mind is not at peace, > it > > is participating in duality. Life does bring that to us for sure, > but > > we can restrain ourselves from fanning the flames. The trick is to > > still be engaged in living and loving. > > > > I personally am wary of rules, you can't say this, you can't say > that. > > The rules are better understood as principles, guidelines you > > personally adapt for your own behavior and thinking, depending on > how > > serious you are, if it drives you to discipline your orientation. > > > > If there is someone we regard as the Guru, we have carved out a very > > lofty place for them in our minds. This is extremely critical for > > ourselves at a personal level. What happens if this person has a > fall, > > no matter how slight or how great ... what do we do? > > > > Taking recourse to a negative battle, we will surely suffer. As > > always, we have to ask ourselves, what do I gain by this? What does > > anyone gain? Am I making the wisest move possible? If not, we of > > course will be learning by taking some more tough kicks, that is one > > of the rules of life here on earth, it is not a curse, it is more a > > statement of intra-personal cause and effect. > > > > Om. May all come to peace, sooner rather than later. It's not about > a > > person, it is about the infinite way and your relationship to THAT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 Interesting interpretation, Chris, and I like the image of the disciple always reflecting the guru's light of wisdom. I had not thought of it in terms of the guru-disciple relationship. Following my original trail (inspired by the alchemical notion of the union of sun and moon), it could then also mean that conflict is still possible in the disciple's mind as long as the guru-disciple relationship exists (as long as sun and moon shine), as long as the disciple has not become totally one with the guru, no matter how long he or she has been a disciple. So we must remain vigilant. with love, Henny , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956@y. ...> wrote: > Henny, > > Your focus on the sun and moon in this verse is interesting... > > I didn't give it much thought, myself, supposing it was just an > analogue for the passage of time, but I think you may have something > there. If there is anything that can be said about scripture, it is > that it is full symbols and many levels of meaning. > > I wouldn't be surprised if the sun and moon are intended to evoke the > essence of the guru/disciple relationship. Like the guru on a > spiritual level, the sun provides us with all of our life force, all > that we need to grow and enjoy life. The moon is like the perfect > disciple, absorbed in total devotion to the sun (guru), always > following the guru, reflecting the guru's pure light of wisdom, and > constantly dripping with the nectar of pure, blissful devotion. > > As Steve mentioned, maintaining a negative attitude toward the guru is > in opposition to this. > > Chris > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > > Dear Steve, > > > > thank you for posting the verse and for your wonderfully clear > > comment. > > > > just a thought: > > The mention of the sun and the moon in the verse intrigues me. Perhaps > > they refer to the internal duality 'I' and 'the thought about so and > > so, the limited mental construction/interpretation of reality'. So > > that the admonition to 'not spread or listen to gossip' would mean > > that a limited understanding of Self (I, me, mine) and a limited > > understanding/presentation of the Guru (as in accepting or creating > > gossip about the person) are linked together, like a mirror and the > > reflection. Perhaps this verse tries to teach us to love the Guru as > > our Self and that when we understand that the Guru is our true Self, > > sun and moon become one. But then, perhaps sun and moon have no > > special meaning here at all.. > > > > with love, > > Henny > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Steve Connor" <sconnor@a...> > > wrote: > > > Hello everyone! > > > > > > 101 > > > "Oh Great Goddess, whoever spreads or listens to gossip about the > > Guru > > > will remain in the deepest conflict so long as the moon and sun > > > shine." > > > > > > Whoa! How are we to receive that? We have some choices to make here. > > > In truth, we might even participate in the unfolding and expression > > of > > > truth as it travels geographically. > > > > > > First, is this a threat or some sort of curse on those who say bad > > > things about the individual personhood of the Guru? At the very > > least, > > > it appears to make a statement of consequence ... say bad things > > about > > > the Guru, and bad things will be experienced by you. > > > > > > OK, hold one. We are forgetting something, and that is, the inherent > > > question, of "who is the Guru?" And this is once again, our sticky > > > wicket as long as we are abiding in the social mind, me vs. you, he, > > > she, them, us. > > > > > > The Guru that we are interested in is not a human being. It is not a > > > fellow who was born here and moved there and did sadhana, etc. No. > > > > > > The Guru is a principle, a divine principle, a great ideal, a > > vision, > > > a vision of reality that we can aspire to, that some individuals, > > > through the power of their sadhana and God's will, may have the > > > fortune or burden to embody. > > > > > > If we look at the word gossip ... we are referring to basically > > > speaking about another person negatively. We are seeing them on > > > limited terms. This happens everyday in the office, in the home. It > > > always seems harmless, but it brings our minds down. > > > > > > Any gossip then, brings conflict, because the mind is not at peace, > > it > > > is participating in duality. Life does bring that to us for sure, > > but > > > we can restrain ourselves from fanning the flames. The trick is to > > > still be engaged in living and loving. > > > > > > I personally am wary of rules, you can't say this, you can't say > > that. > > > The rules are better understood as principles, guidelines you > > > personally adapt for your own behavior and thinking, depending on > > how > > > serious you are, if it drives you to discipline your orientation. > > > > > > If there is someone we regard as the Guru, we have carved out a very > > > lofty place for them in our minds. This is extremely critical for > > > ourselves at a personal level. What happens if this person has a > > fall, > > > no matter how slight or how great ... what do we do? > > > > > > Taking recourse to a negative battle, we will surely suffer. As > > > always, we have to ask ourselves, what do I gain by this? What does > > > anyone gain? Am I making the wisest move possible? If not, we of > > > course will be learning by taking some more tough kicks, that is one > > > of the rules of life here on earth, it is not a curse, it is more a > > > statement of intra-personal cause and effect. > > > > > > Om. May all come to peace, sooner rather than later. It's not about > > a > > > person, it is about the infinite way and your relationship to THAT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 In a message dated 5/1/05 5:21:04 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, HvI (AT) SoftHome (DOT) net writes: it could then also mean that conflict is still possible in the disciple's mind as long as the guru-disciple relationship exists (as long as sun and moon shine), as long as the disciple has not become totally one with the guru, no matter how long he or she has been a disciple. So we must remain vigilant. Namaste, 2 stories. One day I heard a Swami give a talk on being like a radio receiver and the Guru being the transmitter. The Swami said if their were any mistakes it was a problem with the receiver. Once my position ( it rotated among members of our San Francisco community ) was spokesman for the Guru. The position involved intuiting the flow from the Guru and speaking to the members. The challenge was to keep the receiver open and clear. Om Namah Sivaya With Love Kanda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 Dear Kanda, thank you very much for these stories. The transmitter-receiver metaphor is very powerful. May we we learn to tune in correctly and keep away from anything that causes interference. with love, Henny -- In , kandaaran@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 5/1/05 5:21:04 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, > HvI@S... writes: > > it could then also mean that conflict is still possible in > the disciple's mind as long as the guru-disciple relationship exists > (as long as sun and moon shine), as long as the disciple has not > become totally one with the guru, no matter how long he or she has > been a disciple. So we must remain vigilant. > > > > Namaste, > > 2 stories. > > One day I heard a Swami give a talk on being like a radio receiver and the > Guru being the transmitter. The Swami said if their were any mistakes it was > a problem with the receiver. > > Once my position ( it rotated among members of our San Francisco community ) > was spokesman for the Guru. The position involved intuiting the flow from > the Guru and speaking to the members. The challenge was to keep the receiver > open and clear. > > Om Namah Sivaya > > With Love > > Kanda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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