Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Dear all, I have been struggling with the meaning of 'The Rule of the Pure'. Does 'rule' mean a rule like 'rule of the game', or 'something that measures' or 'what governs'? Does 'the pure' means 'that which is pure' or 'those that are pure' or 'purity'? Or does the name include all of the above? Could anyone help me out here? And how is this name connected with Indra? Is it the word 'indra'? How? thanks in advance for your help, with love, Henny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Henny, This is just my guess, so take it with a grain of salt....I'm sure Nanda will take this to Swamiji, but in the meantime... To me the Rule of the Pure refers to the condition that occurs when we get samadhi. The lower forms of samadhi, those characterized by pure knowledge, are created, sustained, or accompanied (I think created is correct), by a preponderance of sattwa guna in the chitta, a huge wave of sattwa. This wave of sattwa effectively cleans out all the dross of the mind, reducing the samskaras to seeds. It is not a perfect cleaning, nor is it permanent, but it is perfected with repeated application. The result of this is purity of mind and personal sovereignty. No more are we beset by negative habits of thought and behavior that we struggle to control. Now, we have control, and the exercise of will and self-discipline becomes a joy, instead of a burden, a pleasure instead of a pain. This is, I believe, the begining of the practice of tapas as a joyful sadhana. Indra, if I'm not mistaken, is the Lord of Yogis, and is generally depicted sitting in samadhi. He is also the Lord of Rain. Perhaps there is a correspondence between the cleansing power of rain and the cleansing power of samadhi. Food for thought... Jia Maa! Chris , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > Dear all, > > I have been struggling with the meaning of 'The Rule of the Pure'. > Does 'rule' mean a rule like 'rule of the game', or 'something that > measures' or 'what governs'? Does 'the pure' means 'that which is > pure' or 'those that are pure' or 'purity'? Or does the name include > all of the above? Could anyone help me out here? And how is this name > connected with Indra? Is it the word 'indra'? How? > > thanks in advance for your help, > > with love, > Henny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Maybe this article on Navatri http://www.shreemaa.org/article16.htm will be of assistance. The mention of the Pure (Indra) is at para. 3. Hope this helps. Kaliahenny_v_i <HvI (AT) SoftHome (DOT) net> wrote: Dear all,I have been struggling with the meaning of 'The Rule of the Pure'. Does 'rule' mean a rule like 'rule of the game', or 'something that measures' or 'what governs'? Does 'the pure' means 'that which is pure' or 'those that are pure' or 'purity'? Or does the name include all of the above? Could anyone help me out here? And how is this name connected with Indra? Is it the word 'indra'? How?thanks in advance for your help,with love,HennyDo You ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2005 Report Share Posted May 9, 2005 Chrisji, thanks for the food for thought. From Kalia's reference to the article on the website I understand that the Rule of the Pure has to do with the attempt to honestly look at your present condition so that you can throw out what is holding you back from realizing truth. Which comes close to your idea of a state of purity, having cleaned out the dross of mind and realizing you are master of your own household, so to speak. Perhaps the Rule of the Pure can be understood as a.the ruler you apply to measure if what you have been doing or thinking is up to the standard of dharma and b. as the wave of sattva washing away the impure, and then also c. as the state of purity which (temporarily) exists as a result. One question: does the wave of sattva (or the preponderance of sattwa guna in the chitta) come about as a result of consistently applying the ruler or is the preponderance of sattwa guna the condition for being able to apply the ruler? Just thinking aloud, chewing... with love, Henny come about as a result , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956> wrote: > Henny, > > This is just my guess, so take it with a grain of salt....I'm sure > Nanda will take this to Swamiji, but in the meantime... > > To me the Rule of the Pure refers to the condition that occurs when we > get samadhi. The lower forms of samadhi, those characterized by pure > knowledge, are created, sustained, or accompanied (I think created is > correct), by a preponderance of sattwa guna in the chitta, a huge wave > of sattwa. This wave of sattwa effectively cleans out all the dross of > the mind, reducing the samskaras to seeds. It is not a perfect > cleaning, nor is it permanent, but it is perfected with repeated > application. > > The result of this is purity of mind and personal sovereignty. No more > are we beset by negative habits of thought and behavior that we > struggle to control. Now, we have control, and the exercise of will > and self-discipline becomes a joy, instead of a burden, a pleasure > instead of a pain. This is, I believe, the begining of the practice of > tapas as a joyful sadhana. > > Indra, if I'm not mistaken, is the Lord of Yogis, and is generally > depicted sitting in samadhi. He is also the Lord of Rain. Perhaps > there is a correspondence between the cleansing power of rain and the > cleansing power of samadhi. > > Food for thought... > > Jia Maa! > > Chris > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > I have been struggling with the meaning of 'The Rule of the Pure'. > > Does 'rule' mean a rule like 'rule of the game', or 'something that > > measures' or 'what governs'? Does 'the pure' means 'that which is > > pure' or 'those that are pure' or 'purity'? Or does the name include > > all of the above? Could anyone help me out here? And how is this name > > connected with Indra? Is it the word 'indra'? How? > > > > thanks in advance for your help, > > > > with love, > > Henny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2005 Report Share Posted May 9, 2005 Dear Kalia, yes, it helps, thank you very much, and an interesting article it is too (I had not read it before) with love, Henny , Kali Kali <kaliananda_saraswati@y. ...> wrote: > Dear Henny, > Maybe this article on Navatri http://www.shreemaa.org/article16.htm will be of assistance. The mention of the Pure (Indra) is at para. 3. > > Hope this helps. > > Kalia > > henny_v_i <HvI@S...> wrote: > Dear all, > > I have been struggling with the meaning of 'The Rule of the Pure'. > Does 'rule' mean a rule like 'rule of the game', or 'something that > measures' or 'what governs'? Does 'the pure' means 'that which is > pure' or 'those that are pure' or 'purity'? Or does the name include > all of the above? Could anyone help me out here? And how is this name > connected with Indra? Is it the word 'indra'? How? > > thanks in advance for your help, > > with love, > Henny > Links > > > / > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2005 Report Share Posted May 9, 2005 Henny, As I understand, it is the difference between practice and attainment. The link to the article didn't work for me, so I didn't read it, but the gist of it, from what you wrote, is that its focus is on the practice before attainment. Rather than The Rule of the Pure, it might be described as The Campaign For The Rule of the Pure. It is a form of tapas, a discipline, and a cultivation of those qualities we strive for because we admire them and want them to be part of us. This process leads to attainment, but is not attainment. Maa and Swamiji don't seem to put a lot of emphasis on the states of samadhi as goals in and of themselves. Their's is a more holistic emphasis on devotion to Mother, discipline, and service, which continue from the time we are born until we drop the body, whatever we do or do not attain. This in no way diminishes the value of samadhi, however. Samadhi represents, as I understand, the actual establishment of the gods and goddesses, including The Rule of the Pure, as the states of being of the individual, rather than the lower ego (The Great Ego) and the many complexes of the unconscious. If you can chip away at dam long enough, eventually the water will begin to seep through, first in a trickle, then a stream, and finally, in a great crumbling mass, the dam gives way and the water rushes out with great force, carrying everything in its path. That is samadhi, and the water is pure consciousness and pure love. The result of that ultimate bath is purity. Jai Maa! Chris , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > Chrisji, > > thanks for the food for thought. From Kalia's reference to the article > on the website I understand that the Rule of the Pure has to do with > the attempt to honestly look at your present condition so that you can > throw out what is holding you back from realizing truth. Which comes > close to your idea of a state of purity, having cleaned out the dross > of mind and realizing you are master of your own household, so to > speak. > Perhaps the Rule of the Pure can be understood as a.the ruler you > apply to measure if what you have been doing or thinking is up to the > standard of dharma and b. as the wave of sattva washing away the > impure, and then also c. as the state of purity which (temporarily) > exists as a result. One question: does the wave of sattva (or the > preponderance of sattwa guna in the chitta) come about as a result of > consistently applying the ruler or is the preponderance of sattwa guna > the condition for being able to apply the ruler? Just thinking aloud, > chewing... > > with love, > Henny > > > > come about as a result , "Chris > Kirner" <chriskirner1956> wrote: > > Henny, > > > > This is just my guess, so take it with a grain of salt....I'm sure > > Nanda will take this to Swamiji, but in the meantime... > > > > To me the Rule of the Pure refers to the condition that occurs when > we > > get samadhi. The lower forms of samadhi, those characterized by pure > > knowledge, are created, sustained, or accompanied (I think created > is > > correct), by a preponderance of sattwa guna in the chitta, a huge > wave > > of sattwa. This wave of sattwa effectively cleans out all the dross > of > > the mind, reducing the samskaras to seeds. It is not a perfect > > cleaning, nor is it permanent, but it is perfected with repeated > > application. > > > > The result of this is purity of mind and personal sovereignty. No > more > > are we beset by negative habits of thought and behavior that we > > struggle to control. Now, we have control, and the exercise of will > > and self-discipline becomes a joy, instead of a burden, a pleasure > > instead of a pain. This is, I believe, the begining of the practice > of > > tapas as a joyful sadhana. > > > > Indra, if I'm not mistaken, is the Lord of Yogis, and is generally > > depicted sitting in samadhi. He is also the Lord of Rain. Perhaps > > there is a correspondence between the cleansing power of rain and > the > > cleansing power of samadhi. > > > > Food for thought... > > > > Jia Maa! > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > > > Dear all, > > > > > > I have been struggling with the meaning of 'The Rule of the Pure'. > > > Does 'rule' mean a rule like 'rule of the game', or 'something > that > > > measures' or 'what governs'? Does 'the pure' means 'that which is > > > pure' or 'those that are pure' or 'purity'? Or does the name > include > > > all of the above? Could anyone help me out here? And how is this > name > > > connected with Indra? Is it the word 'indra'? How? > > > > > > thanks in advance for your help, > > > > > > with love, > > > Henny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2005 Report Share Posted May 9, 2005 The link worked fine this time, and yes, it is a very good article. The author obviously has a deep relationship with Chandi Devi. Chris , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > Dear Kalia, > > yes, it helps, thank you very much, and an interesting article it is > too (I had not read it before) > > with love, > Henny > > > , Kali Kali <kaliananda_saraswati@y. > ..> wrote: > > Dear Henny, > > Maybe this article on Navatri http://www.shreemaa.org/article16.htm > will be of assistance. The mention of the Pure (Indra) is at para. 3. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > Kalia > > > > henny_v_i <HvI@S...> wrote: > > Dear all, > > > > I have been struggling with the meaning of 'The Rule of the Pure'. > > Does 'rule' mean a rule like 'rule of the game', or 'something that > > measures' or 'what governs'? Does 'the pure' means 'that which is > > pure' or 'those that are pure' or 'purity'? Or does the name include > > all of the above? Could anyone help me out here? And how is this > name > > connected with Indra? Is it the word 'indra'? How? > > > > thanks in advance for your help, > > > > with love, > > Henny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2005 Report Share Posted May 10, 2005 Dear Chris, thanks very much for sharing your insight and for giving me new food for thought, you wrote: > As I understand, it is the difference between practice and attainment. [...] > It is a form of tapas, a discipline, and a cultivation of those > qualities we strive for because we admire them and want them to be > part of us. This process leads to attainment, but is not attainment. that is very interesting... I can see there is a difference between the process and the attainment. Yet there's also the interplay of process and attainment (possible because there's a difference), the interplay of becoming and being. I am reminded of what you said the other day about Shiva and Shakti, and perhaps the process could be thought of as their courtship, while the attainment is union...(I may be way off here) >Samadhi > represents, as I understand, the actual establishment of the gods and > goddesses, including The Rule of the Pure, as the states of being of > the individual, rather than the lower ego (The Great Ego) and the many > complexes of the unconscious. Yes, I see the connection with the King being reinstated on his throne. Samadhi would then be not something you acquire or get, but rather a matter of re-cognition, of remembering who you truly are. > If you can chip away at dam long enough, eventually the water will > begin to seep through, first in a trickle, then a stream, and finally, > in a great crumbling mass, the dam gives way and the water rushes out > with great force, carrying everything in its path. That is samadhi, > and the water is pure consciousness and pure love. The result of that > ultimate bath is purity. I am fascinated by that point where the dam finally gives way. Thomas Merton has called it 'this little point...of absolute poverty', and bearing that in mind, I see the connection with the process of discipline and continuing attempt at honesty again: the point where you truly recognize that you have nothing and can do nothing of yourself is the exact same point where you find all. At this point of abandon, or surrender, process and attainment become one. When you give all, you get all. One question, though: after the waters have carried away the dam, there is only water. Yet in order to be able to function in this world, some container is needed. How is this provisional container built again and what is it made of? Just musing, with love, Henny > > Jai Maa! > > Chris > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > > Chrisji, > > > > thanks for the food for thought. From Kalia's reference to the article > > on the website I understand that the Rule of the Pure has to do with > > the attempt to honestly look at your present condition so that you can > > throw out what is holding you back from realizing truth. Which comes > > close to your idea of a state of purity, having cleaned out the dross > > of mind and realizing you are master of your own household, so to > > speak. > > Perhaps the Rule of the Pure can be understood as a.the ruler you > > apply to measure if what you have been doing or thinking is up to the > > standard of dharma and b. as the wave of sattva washing away the > > impure, and then also c. as the state of purity which (temporarily) > > exists as a result. One question: does the wave of sattva (or the > > preponderance of sattwa guna in the chitta) come about as a result of > > consistently applying the ruler or is the preponderance of sattwa guna > > the condition for being able to apply the ruler? Just thinking aloud, > > chewing... > > > > with love, > > Henny > > > > > > > > come about as a result , "Chris > > Kirner" <chriskirner1956> wrote: > > > Henny, > > > > > > This is just my guess, so take it with a grain of salt....I'm sure > > > Nanda will take this to Swamiji, but in the meantime... > > > > > > To me the Rule of the Pure refers to the condition that occurs when > > we > > > get samadhi. The lower forms of samadhi, those characterized by pure > > > knowledge, are created, sustained, or accompanied (I think created > > is > > > correct), by a preponderance of sattwa guna in the chitta, a huge > > wave > > > of sattwa. This wave of sattwa effectively cleans out all the dross > > of > > > the mind, reducing the samskaras to seeds. It is not a perfect > > > cleaning, nor is it permanent, but it is perfected with repeated > > > application. > > > > > > The result of this is purity of mind and personal sovereignty. No > > more > > > are we beset by negative habits of thought and behavior that we > > > struggle to control. Now, we have control, and the exercise of will > > > and self-discipline becomes a joy, instead of a burden, a pleasure > > > instead of a pain. This is, I believe, the begining of the practice > > of > > > tapas as a joyful sadhana. > > > > > > Indra, if I'm not mistaken, is the Lord of Yogis, and is generally > > > depicted sitting in samadhi. He is also the Lord of Rain. Perhaps > > > there is a correspondence between the cleansing power of rain and > > the > > > cleansing power of samadhi. > > > > > > Food for thought... > > > > > > Jia Maa! > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > I have been struggling with the meaning of 'The Rule of the Pure'. > > > > Does 'rule' mean a rule like 'rule of the game', or 'something > > that > > > > measures' or 'what governs'? Does 'the pure' means 'that which is > > > > pure' or 'those that are pure' or 'purity'? Or does the name > > include > > > > all of the above? Could anyone help me out here? And how is this > > name > > > > connected with Indra? Is it the word 'indra'? How? > > > > > > > > thanks in advance for your help, > > > > > > > > with love, > > > > Henny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Hi Henny, OK, here's what I think... I am reminded of what you said the > other day about Shiva and Shakti, and perhaps the process could be > thought of as their courtship, while the attainment is union...(I may > be way off here) Sure. It's all Mother's lila, after all... But I think Swamiji would put it more personally and say it is our courtship, with our Divine Beloved. Yes, I see the connection with the King being reinstated on his > throne. Samadhi would then be not something you acquire or get, but > rather a matter of re-cognition, of remembering who you truly are. To me, this is symantics. It is a question of levels, and which level you choose to reference in your mind. All of us are perfect right now, or as Mother would more succinctly say, "Wake up!" On the human level, as I understand, samadhi seems very much like something we get, or attain, though from the other side there is recognition that there was nothing to attain at all. I am fascinated by that point where the dam finally gives way. Thomas > Merton has called it 'this little point...of absolute poverty', and > bearing that in mind, I see the connection with the process of > discipline and continuing attempt at honesty again: the point where > you truly recognize that you have nothing and can do nothing of > yourself is the exact same point where you find all. At this point of > abandon, or surrender, process and attainment become one. When you > give all, you get all. > > One question, though: after the waters have carried away the dam, > there is only water. Yet in order to be able to function in this > world, some container is needed. How is this provisional container > built again and what is it made of? Meister Eckhart wrote that if we can empty the heart completely of all creatures (created things - objects) that God will immediately rush in to fill the void. The container is not destroyed, merely cleaned, and it is not an all or nothing process. Only with repeated application of samadhi do we achieve perfection. That is why there are stages, or types, of samadhi. You may remember in the Chandi (please forgive my ignorance of the chapters and the names, I'm not that familiar with the Chandi yet...) that at one point the asuras are described as being sent to heaven where they will be purified. If that is not samadhi, I don't know what is. When we go to visit God we do not return the same as when we set out. May God bless your quick mind and pure heart. Jai Maa! Chris , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > Dear Chris, > > thanks very much for sharing your insight and for giving me new food > for thought, > > you wrote: > > > As I understand, it is the difference between practice and > attainment. > [...] > > It is a form of tapas, a discipline, and a cultivation of those > > qualities we strive for because we admire them and want them to be > > part of us. This process leads to attainment, but is not attainment. > > that is very interesting... I can see there is a difference between > the process and the attainment. Yet there's also the interplay of > process and attainment (possible because there's a difference), the > interplay of becoming and being. I am reminded of what you said the > other day about Shiva and Shakti, and perhaps the process could be > thought of as their courtship, while the attainment is union...(I may > be way off here) > > >Samadhi > > represents, as I understand, the actual establishment of the gods > and > > goddesses, including The Rule of the Pure, as the states of being of > > the individual, rather than the lower ego (The Great Ego) and the > many > > complexes of the unconscious. > > Yes, I see the connection with the King being reinstated on his > throne. Samadhi would then be not something you acquire or get, but > rather a matter of re-cognition, of remembering who you truly are. > > > If you can chip away at dam long enough, eventually the water will > > begin to seep through, first in a trickle, then a stream, and > finally, > > in a great crumbling mass, the dam gives way and the water rushes > out > > with great force, carrying everything in its path. That is samadhi, > > and the water is pure consciousness and pure love. The result of > that > > ultimate bath is purity. > > I am fascinated by that point where the dam finally gives way. Thomas > Merton has called it 'this little point...of absolute poverty', and > bearing that in mind, I see the connection with the process of > discipline and continuing attempt at honesty again: the point where > you truly recognize that you have nothing and can do nothing of > yourself is the exact same point where you find all. At this point of > abandon, or surrender, process and attainment become one. When you > give all, you get all. > > One question, though: after the waters have carried away the dam, > there is only water. Yet in order to be able to function in this > world, some container is needed. How is this provisional container > built again and what is it made of? > > Just musing, > > with love, > Henny > > > > > > > > Jai Maa! > > > > Chris > > > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > > > Chrisji, > > > > > > thanks for the food for thought. From Kalia's reference to the > article > > > on the website I understand that the Rule of the Pure has to do > with > > > the attempt to honestly look at your present condition so that you > can > > > throw out what is holding you back from realizing truth. Which > comes > > > close to your idea of a state of purity, having cleaned out the > dross > > > of mind and realizing you are master of your own household, so to > > > speak. > > > Perhaps the Rule of the Pure can be understood as a.the ruler you > > > apply to measure if what you have been doing or thinking is up to > the > > > standard of dharma and b. as the wave of sattva washing away the > > > impure, and then also c. as the state of purity which > (temporarily) > > > exists as a result. One question: does the wave of sattva (or the > > > preponderance of sattwa guna in the chitta) come about as a result > of > > > consistently applying the ruler or is the preponderance of sattwa > guna > > > the condition for being able to apply the ruler? Just thinking > aloud, > > > chewing... > > > > > > with love, > > > Henny > > > > > > > > > > > > come about as a result , "Chris > > > Kirner" <chriskirner1956> wrote: > > > > Henny, > > > > > > > > This is just my guess, so take it with a grain of salt....I'm > sure > > > > Nanda will take this to Swamiji, but in the meantime... > > > > > > > > To me the Rule of the Pure refers to the condition that occurs > when > > > we > > > > get samadhi. The lower forms of samadhi, those characterized by > pure > > > > knowledge, are created, sustained, or accompanied (I think > created > > > is > > > > correct), by a preponderance of sattwa guna in the chitta, a > huge > > > wave > > > > of sattwa. This wave of sattwa effectively cleans out all the > dross > > > of > > > > the mind, reducing the samskaras to seeds. It is not a perfect > > > > cleaning, nor is it permanent, but it is perfected with repeated > > > > application. > > > > > > > > The result of this is purity of mind and personal sovereignty. > No > > > more > > > > are we beset by negative habits of thought and behavior that we > > > > struggle to control. Now, we have control, and the exercise of > will > > > > and self-discipline becomes a joy, instead of a burden, a > pleasure > > > > instead of a pain. This is, I believe, the begining of the > practice > > > of > > > > tapas as a joyful sadhana. > > > > > > > > Indra, if I'm not mistaken, is the Lord of Yogis, and is > generally > > > > depicted sitting in samadhi. He is also the Lord of Rain. > Perhaps > > > > there is a correspondence between the cleansing power of rain > and > > > the > > > > cleansing power of samadhi. > > > > > > > > Food for thought... > > > > > > > > Jia Maa! > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> > wrote: > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > I have been struggling with the meaning of 'The Rule of the > Pure'. > > > > > Does 'rule' mean a rule like 'rule of the game', or 'something > > > that > > > > > measures' or 'what governs'? Does 'the pure' means 'that which > is > > > > > pure' or 'those that are pure' or 'purity'? Or does the name > > > include > > > > > all of the above? Could anyone help me out here? And how is > this > > > name > > > > > connected with Indra? Is it the word 'indra'? How? > > > > > > > > > > thanks in advance for your help, > > > > > > > > > > with love, > > > > > Henny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Dear Chris, what I think: > To me, this is symantics. It is a question of levels, and which level > you choose to reference in your mind. All of us are perfect right now, > or as Mother would more succinctly say, "Wake up!" > > On the human level, as I understand, samadhi seems very much like > something we get, or attain, though from the other side there is > recognition that there was nothing to attain at all. Yes, you are right. Then the name 'Rule of the Pure', which we talked about, could also have different meanings on these different levels, could it not: one referring to the process of cleaning and the 'disciple' level of consciousness, and one reffering to the result of that process or the 'guru'level (I use these terms loosely because I cannot think of better ones right now). > The container is not destroyed, merely cleaned, and it is not an all > or nothing process. Only with repeated application of samadhi do we > achieve perfection. Ah, this is what I needed to hear, because my mind tends to get stuck in an all or nothing routine. And when the mind insists it can grasp all, it has understood nothing. > You may remember in the Chandi (please forgive my ignorance > of the chapters and the names, I'm not that familiar with the Chandi > yet...) that at one point the asuras are described as being sent to > heaven where they will be purified. If that is not samadhi, I don't > know what is. When we go to visit God we do not return the same as > when we set out. Yes, I do remember, it is one of my favorite verses. I never looked at it like that before. And in my experience it is true that even when you get only as far as the gate to the front-lawn of the house where God lives, you do not return the same. The experience makes you want to go back for more, thanks Chris, for generously sharing your thoughts, you've helped me a lot, with love, Henny , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956@y. ...> wrote: > Hi Henny, > > OK, here's what I think... > > > I am reminded of what you said the > > other day about Shiva and Shakti, and perhaps the process could be > > thought of as their courtship, while the attainment is union...(I may > > be way off here) > > Sure. It's all Mother's lila, after all... > > But I think Swamiji would put it more personally and say it is our > courtship, with our Divine Beloved. > > Yes, I see the connection with the King being reinstated on his > > throne. Samadhi would then be not something you acquire or get, but > > rather a matter of re-cognition, of remembering who you truly are. > > To me, this is symantics. It is a question of levels, and which level > you choose to reference in your mind. All of us are perfect right now, > or as Mother would more succinctly say, "Wake up!" > > On the human level, as I understand, samadhi seems very much like > something we get, or attain, though from the other side there is > recognition that there was nothing to attain at all. > > I am fascinated by that point where the dam finally gives way. Thomas > > Merton has called it 'this little point...of absolute poverty', and > > bearing that in mind, I see the connection with the process of > > discipline and continuing attempt at honesty again: the point where > > you truly recognize that you have nothing and can do nothing of > > yourself is the exact same point where you find all. At this point of > > abandon, or surrender, process and attainment become one. When you > > give all, you get all. > > > > One question, though: after the waters have carried away the dam, > > there is only water. Yet in order to be able to function in this > > world, some container is needed. How is this provisional container > > built again and what is it made of? > > Meister Eckhart wrote that if we can empty the heart completely of all > creatures (created things - objects) that God will immediately rush in > to fill the void. > > The container is not destroyed, merely cleaned, and it is not an all > or nothing process. Only with repeated application of samadhi do we > achieve perfection. That is why there are stages, or types, of > samadhi. You may remember in the Chandi (please forgive my ignorance > of the chapters and the names, I'm not that familiar with the Chandi > yet...) that at one point the asuras are described as being sent to > heaven where they will be purified. If that is not samadhi, I don't > know what is. When we go to visit God we do not return the same as > when we set out. > > May God bless your quick mind and pure heart. > > Jai Maa! > Chris > > > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > > Dear Chris, > > > > thanks very much for sharing your insight and for giving me new food > > for thought, > > > > you wrote: > > > > > As I understand, it is the difference between practice and > > attainment. > > [...] > > > It is a form of tapas, a discipline, and a cultivation of those > > > qualities we strive for because we admire them and want them to be > > > part of us. This process leads to attainment, but is not attainment. > > > > that is very interesting... I can see there is a difference between > > the process and the attainment. Yet there's also the interplay of > > process and attainment (possible because there's a difference), the > > interplay of becoming and being. I am reminded of what you said the > > other day about Shiva and Shakti, and perhaps the process could be > > thought of as their courtship, while the attainment is union...(I may > > be way off here) > > > > >Samadhi > > > represents, as I understand, the actual establishment of the gods > > and > > > goddesses, including The Rule of the Pure, as the states of being of > > > the individual, rather than the lower ego (The Great Ego) and the > > many > > > complexes of the unconscious. > > > > Yes, I see the connection with the King being reinstated on his > > throne. Samadhi would then be not something you acquire or get, but > > rather a matter of re-cognition, of remembering who you truly are. > > > > > If you can chip away at dam long enough, eventually the water will > > > begin to seep through, first in a trickle, then a stream, and > > finally, > > > in a great crumbling mass, the dam gives way and the water rushes > > out > > > with great force, carrying everything in its path. That is samadhi, > > > and the water is pure consciousness and pure love. The result of > > that > > > ultimate bath is purity. > > > > I am fascinated by that point where the dam finally gives way. Thomas > > Merton has called it 'this little point...of absolute poverty', and > > bearing that in mind, I see the connection with the process of > > discipline and continuing attempt at honesty again: the point where > > you truly recognize that you have nothing and can do nothing of > > yourself is the exact same point where you find all. At this point of > > abandon, or surrender, process and attainment become one. When you > > give all, you get all. > > > > One question, though: after the waters have carried away the dam, > > there is only water. Yet in order to be able to function in this > > world, some container is needed. How is this provisional container > > built again and what is it made of? > > > > Just musing, > > > > with love, > > Henny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Maa! > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > > > > Chrisji, > > > > > > > > thanks for the food for thought. From Kalia's reference to the > > article > > > > on the website I understand that the Rule of the Pure has to do > > with > > > > the attempt to honestly look at your present condition so that you > > can > > > > throw out what is holding you back from realizing truth. Which > > comes > > > > close to your idea of a state of purity, having cleaned out the > > dross > > > > of mind and realizing you are master of your own household, so to > > > > speak. > > > > Perhaps the Rule of the Pure can be understood as a.the ruler you > > > > apply to measure if what you have been doing or thinking is up to > > the > > > > standard of dharma and b. as the wave of sattva washing away the > > > > impure, and then also c. as the state of purity which > > (temporarily) > > > > exists as a result. One question: does the wave of sattva (or the > > > > preponderance of sattwa guna in the chitta) come about as a result > > of > > > > consistently applying the ruler or is the preponderance of sattwa > > guna > > > > the condition for being able to apply the ruler? Just thinking > > aloud, > > > > chewing... > > > > > > > > with love, > > > > Henny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > come about as a result , "Chris > > > > Kirner" <chriskirner1956> wrote: > > > > > Henny, > > > > > > > > > > This is just my guess, so take it with a grain of salt.... I'm > > sure > > > > > Nanda will take this to Swamiji, but in the meantime... > > > > > > > > > > To me the Rule of the Pure refers to the condition that occurs > > when > > > > we > > > > > get samadhi. The lower forms of samadhi, those characterized by > > pure > > > > > knowledge, are created, sustained, or accompanied (I think > > created > > > > is > > > > > correct), by a preponderance of sattwa guna in the chitta, a > > huge > > > > wave > > > > > of sattwa. This wave of sattwa effectively cleans out all the > > dross > > > > of > > > > > the mind, reducing the samskaras to seeds. It is not a perfect > > > > > cleaning, nor is it permanent, but it is perfected with repeated > > > > > application. > > > > > > > > > > The result of this is purity of mind and personal sovereignty. > > No > > > > more > > > > > are we beset by negative habits of thought and behavior that we > > > > > struggle to control. Now, we have control, and the exercise of > > will > > > > > and self-discipline becomes a joy, instead of a burden, a > > pleasure > > > > > instead of a pain. This is, I believe, the begining of the > > practice > > > > of > > > > > tapas as a joyful sadhana. > > > > > > > > > > Indra, if I'm not mistaken, is the Lord of Yogis, and is > > generally > > > > > depicted sitting in samadhi. He is also the Lord of Rain. > > Perhaps > > > > > there is a correspondence between the cleansing power of rain > > and > > > > the > > > > > cleansing power of samadhi. > > > > > > > > > > Food for thought... > > > > > > > > > > Jia Maa! > > > > > > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > I have been struggling with the meaning of 'The Rule of the > > Pure'. > > > > > > Does 'rule' mean a rule like 'rule of the game', or 'something > > > > that > > > > > > measures' or 'what governs'? Does 'the pure' means 'that which > > is > > > > > > pure' or 'those that are pure' or 'purity'? Or does the name > > > > include > > > > > > all of the above? Could anyone help me out here? And how is > > this > > > > name > > > > > > connected with Indra? Is it the word 'indra'? How? > > > > > > > > > > > > thanks in advance for your help, > > > > > > > > > > > > with love, > > > > > > Henny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 ArjunaChris Kirner <chriskirner1956 > wrote: Hi Henny,OK, here's what I think...I am reminded of what you said the > other day about Shiva and Shakti, and perhaps the process could be > thought of as their courtship, while the attainment is union...(I may > be way off here) Sure. It's all Mother's lila, after all...But I think Swamiji would put it more personally and say it is ourcourtship, with our Divine Beloved.Yes, I see the connection with the King being reinstated on his > throne. Samadhi would then be not something you acquire or get, but > rather a matter of re-cognition, of remembering who you truly are. To me, this is symantics. It is a question of levels, and which levelyou choose to reference in your mind. All of us are perfect right now,or as Mother would more succinctly say, "Wake up!"On the human level, as I understand, samadhi seems very much likesomething we get, or attain, though from the other side there isrecognition that there was nothing to attain at all.I am fascinated by that point where the dam finally gives way. Thomas > Merton has called it 'this little point...of absolute poverty', and > bearing that in mind, I see the connection with the process of > discipline and continuing attempt at honesty again: the point where > you truly recognize that you have nothing and can do nothing of > yourself is the exact same point where you find all. At this point of > abandon, or surrender, process and attainment become one. When you > give all, you get all.> > One question, though: after the waters have carried away the dam, > there is only water. Yet in order to be able to function in this > world, some container is needed. How is this provisional container > built again and what is it made of?Meister Eckhart wrote that if we can empty the heart completely of allcreatures (created things - objects) that God will immediately rush into fill the void. The container is not destroyed, merely cleaned, and it is not an allor nothing process. Only with repeated application of samadhi do weachieve perfection. That is why there are stages, or types, ofsamadhi. You may remember in the Chandi (please forgive my ignoranceof the chapters and the names, I'm not that familiar with the Chandiyet...) that at one point the asuras are described as being sent toheaven where they will be purified. If that is not samadhi, I don'tknow what is. When we go to visit God we do not return the same aswhen we set out.May God bless your quick mind and pure heart.Jai Maa!Chris, "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote:> Dear Chris,> > thanks very much for sharing your insight and for giving me new food > for thought, > > you wrote: > > > As I understand, it is the difference between practice and > attainment.> [...]> > It is a form of tapas, a discipline, and a cultivation of those> > qualities we strive for because we admire them and want them to be> > part of us. This process leads to attainment, but is not attainment.> > that is very interesting... I can see there is a difference between > the process and the attainment. Yet there's also the interplay of > process and attainment (possible because there's a difference), the > interplay of becoming and being. I am reminded of what you said the > other day about Shiva and Shakti, and perhaps the process could be > thought of as their courtship, while the attainment is union...(I may > be way off here) > > >Samadhi> > represents, as I understand, the actual establishment of the gods > and> > goddesses, including The Rule of the Pure, as the states of being of> > the individual, rather than the lower ego (The Great Ego) and the > many> > complexes of the unconscious.> > Yes, I see the connection with the King being reinstated on his > throne. Samadhi would then be not something you acquire or get, but > rather a matter of re-cognition, of remembering who you truly are. > > > If you can chip away at dam long enough, eventually the water will> > begin to seep through, first in a trickle, then a stream, and > finally,> > in a great crumbling mass, the dam gives way and the water rushes > out> > with great force, carrying everything in its path. That is samadhi,> > and the water is pure consciousness and pure love. The result of > that> > ultimate bath is purity.> > I am fascinated by that point where the dam finally gives way. Thomas > Merton has called it 'this little point...of absolute poverty', and > bearing that in mind, I see the connection with the process of > discipline and continuing attempt at honesty again: the point where > you truly recognize that you have nothing and can do nothing of > yourself is the exact same point where you find all. At this point of > abandon, or surrender, process and attainment become one. When you > give all, you get all.> > One question, though: after the waters have carried away the dam, > there is only water. Yet in order to be able to function in this > world, some container is needed. How is this provisional container > built again and what is it made of?> > Just musing,> > with love,> Henny> > > > > > > > Jai Maa!> > > > Chris> > > > > > --- In , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote:> > > Chrisji,> > > > > > thanks for the food for thought. From Kalia's reference to the > article > > > on the website I understand that the Rule of the Pure has to do > with > > > the attempt to honestly look at your present condition so that you > can > > > throw out what is holding you back from realizing truth. Which > comes > > > close to your idea of a state of purity, having cleaned out the > dross > > > of mind and realizing you are master of your own household, so to > > > speak. > > > Perhaps the Rule of the Pure can be understood as a.the ruler you > > > apply to measure if what you have been doing or thinking is up to > the > > > standard of dharma and b. as the wave of sattva washing away the > > > impure, and then also c. as the state of purity which > (temporarily) > > > exists as a result. One question: does the wave of sattva (or the > > > preponderance of sattwa guna in the chitta) come about as a result > of > > > consistently applying the ruler or is the preponderance of sattwa > guna > > > the condition for being able to apply the ruler? Just thinking > aloud, > > > chewing...> > > > > > with love,> > > Henny> > > > > > > > > > > > come about as a result --- In , "Chris > > > Kirner" <chriskirner1956> wrote:> > > > Henny,> > > > > > > > This is just my guess, so take it with a grain of salt....I'm > sure> > > > Nanda will take this to Swamiji, but in the meantime...> > > > > > > > To me the Rule of the Pure refers to the condition that occurs > when > > > we> > > > get samadhi. The lower forms of samadhi, those characterized by > pure> > > > knowledge, are created, sustained, or accompanied (I think > created > > > is> > > > correct), by a preponderance of sattwa guna in the chitta, a > huge > > > wave> > > > of sattwa. This wave of sattwa effectively cleans out all the > dross > > > of> > > > the mind, reducing the samskaras to seeds. It is not a perfect> > > > cleaning, nor is it permanent, but it is perfected with repeated> > > > application.> > > > > > > > The result of this is purity of mind and personal sovereignty. > No > > > more> > > > are we beset by negative habits of thought and behavior that we> > > > struggle to control. Now, we have control, and the exercise of > will> > > > and self-discipline becomes a joy, instead of a burden, a > pleasure> > > > instead of a pain. This is, I believe, the begining of the > practice > > > of> > > > tapas as a joyful sadhana.> > > > > > > > Indra, if I'm not mistaken, is the Lord of Yogis, and is > generally> > > > depicted sitting in samadhi. He is also the Lord of Rain. > Perhaps> > > > there is a correspondence between the cleansing power of rain > and > > > the> > > > cleansing power of samadhi.> > > > > > > > Food for thought...> > > > > > > > Jia Maa!> > > > > > > > Chris> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> > wrote:> > > > > Dear all,> > > > > > > > > > I have been struggling with the meaning of 'The Rule of the > Pure'. > > > > > Does 'rule' mean a rule like 'rule of the game', or 'something > > > that > > > > > measures' or 'what governs'? Does 'the pure' means 'that which > is > > > > > pure' or 'those that are pure' or 'purity'? Or does the name > > > include > > > > > all of the above? Could anyone help me out here? And how is > this > > > name > > > > > connected with Indra? Is it the word 'indra'? How?> > > > > > > > > > thanks in advance for your help,> > > > > > > > > > with love,> > > > > Henny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Arjuna, This is what I believe too. However, Maa and Swamiji are careful not to separate spiritual life in this way in their teachings. We all know we do not measure up to their examples of purity and discipline. The magic that fills their lives, their awareness, is not ours to experience yet. So, they emphasize giving more than we get, and respecting all of our actions, making our lives a puja. They say it is very important to live a spiritual life, knowing our efforts will be imperfect, but knowing also that the desire and the effort will ultimately help lead to that perfection we see in them. I hope I'm not being preachy here. I am far from a shining light in terms of spiritual living. I long for the relative freedom, freedom from my lower nature, my complexes, my self absorption, that samadhi will bring. I long for the ability to live a truly spiritual life, filled, not with constant thoughts of ME, but of God in the miriad faces and objects that surround me every day. May that day come soon. Jai Maa! Chris , Arjuna <arjunaacharya> wrote: > In The Eternal Companion, Swami Brahmananda (Rakhal in the Gospel of Ramakrishna) says that samadhi is the beginning of real spiritual life not the culmination. > Arjuna > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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