Chris and Guru Gita Verse 121

May 22, 2005

Chrisji,

thank you for your clarifications, which help me a lot. I'm having

some trouble distinguishing the meaning of 'shakti', 'prana' and

'kundalini shakti', but I'm learning.

> When the Guru goes into meditation, he becomes one with the

formless.

> His consciousness, his very being rise above the heavens. His feet

> where they touch the earth are all that we can reach. So we venerate

> his feet.

beautiful!

> On a purely symbolic level, ham and sah represent the feet of the

> gurutattwa, who is at once unmanifest sat chit ananda, and all this.

> The feet represent manifest existence, or the potential of manifest

> existence (if ham and sah are seen in sahasrara chakra).

Yes, I can see that.

Your comments and now your question to Swamiji, which is so

beautifully worded and well thought out, inspire me to really study

the Guru Gita. I started by just reacting to the verse of the day, but

yesterday I started at the beginning, which I should have done

earlier. Thank you for helping me discover the beauty of this text, to

which I had an initial and irrational aversion,

with love,

Henny

> > >

May 22, 2005

Henny,

Thanks for the complement.

I had a similar reaction to the Guru Gita at first. My first exposure

to it was hearing Swamiji recite at a retreat. I almost fell asleep

more than once!

I noticed in your previous post that you had been studying : )

When she first suggested we study the Guru Gita, Maa said something

along the line of, "The Chandi is PhD., but you will get devotion with

the Guru Gita," so I've approached it that way, waiting for my

devotion to increase. Maa never says anything that isn't true.

In the tradition I came from, though in truth my gurudeva loved his

master very much, obeyed him completely, and respected him highly, the

"order" was that the guru was not to be worshipped. The fact of the

matter is, though, that there is no other definition I know of for

worship than the demonstration of love, obedience, and respect.

Anyway, when I read the Guru Gita the first few times it seemed to

promote guru-worship to the point of mindlessness, and that tended to

put me off. But in the introduction Swamiji points out that as

disciples we need to use our discrimination, so there is a way to

approach the Guru, surrender, and become an extension of the Guru,

without losing our personal uniqueness. The Guru Gita itself focuses

so much on the attainment of wisdom that it surprises me I never

really noticed before.

The gurutattwa gives us everything - our very lives - and much is

received through the guru in the body. We can never repay the gurudeva

for what she does for us. How can one repay what is beyond price? If

we receive even a little light from the Guru in this life, how much

suffering is averted, how much peace created? The Gurudeva is the font

of all grace. I offer myself at the feet of the gurudeva. I bow, I

bow, I bow to the compassionate gurudeva.

Jai Maa!

Chris

, "henny_v_i" wrote: > > > Your

comments and now your question to Swamiji, which is so > beautifully

worded and well thought out, inspire me to really study > the Guru

Gita. I started by just reacting to the verse of the day, but >

yesterday I started at the beginning, which I should have done >

earlier. Thank you for helping me discover the beauty of this text, to

> which I had an initial and irrational aversion, > > with love, >

Henny, "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote:

May 22, 2005

hello chris,

for me, i am still trying to appreciate the guru gita. i think even

though i have discrimination in whom i would likely surrender to (sure

like to think so anyway), i still find it difficult to get whatever it

is others are getting from this text. i am just not so moved as i wish

i was. and the idea of a kind of guru worship--well, even if

intellectually i know that this guru is the ultimate principle, it's

still a human being modelling the principle for us. while i can

definitely defer to those who have more spiritual knowledge and

experience than me, in general, i see gurus or saints the same as i

see jesus the christ, and that is as teachers and examples of how to do

it right. that i get. perhaps it is what others do in the presence of

saints that gives me pause. while i think a certain reverance and awe

is in order, the sometimes fawning (or so it seems to me), almost

falling over the guru that i have read about seems exaggerated.

i suppose i have not yet learned to understand and appreciate the

"gurudeva for what she does for us." what is the 'much' that is

received from the guru in the body? i would really like to feel and

get this connection that many seem to have.

> In the tradition I came from,

though in truth my gurudeva loved his

> master very much, obeyed him completely, and respected him highly,

> the "order" was that the guru was not to be worshipped. The fact

of

> the matter is, though, that there is no other definition I know of

> for worship than the demonstration of love, obedience, and respect.

>

> Anyway, when I read the Guru Gita the first few times it seemed to

> promote guru-worship to the point of mindlessness, and that tended

to

> put me off. But in the introduction Swamiji points out that as

> disciples we need to use our discrimination, so there is a way to

> approach the Guru, surrender, and become an extension of the Guru,

> without losing our personal uniqueness. The Guru Gita itself

focuses

> so much on the attainment of wisdom that it surprises me I never

> really noticed before.

>

> The gurutattwa gives us everything - our very lives - and much is

> received through the guru in the body. We can never repay the

> gurudeva for what she does for us. How can one repay what is

beyond

> price? If we receive even a little light from the Guru in this

life,

> how much suffering is averted, how much peace created? The

Gurudeva

> is the font of all grace. I offer myself at the feet of the

gurudeva.

> I bow, I bow, I bow to the compassionate gurudeva.

>

> Jai Maa! Chris

>

Be Love,

Berijoy

http://www.egyirba.net

`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/

-=-=-

....

Self-enquiry is the direct path to Self-realization or enlightenment.

The only way to make the mind

cease its outward activities is to turn it inward. By steady and

continuous investigation into the nature

of the mind, the mind itself gets transformed into That to which it

owes its own existence. - Ramesh S. Balsekar

-=-=-

....

Sometimes our light goes out but is blown into a flame by another human

being. Each of us owes deepest thanks to those who have rekindled this

light. --Albert Schweitzer

May 22, 2005

hi berijoy,

so honestly stated. thank u.

i think there are times fawning and devotion get sort of mixed up. or

maybe it just looks like that. i would say it is unquestionably alien

to the western mind-set.

my thinking is this: we wish to always take on the highest

understanding we can. if we believe in the guru as principle, so be

it.

the human guru is sort of holder of that flame, to the extent they are

able. they need to be very successful practitioners themselves.

my personal feeling is, it is not necessary for everyone to have that

kind of personal devotion feeling. but to learn respect and dignity,

that is another matter. "you are teaching me this, this is the best

thing ever, thank you!"

here is where it is both wrong and right: "the guru is above me, he is

so much better than me, i can never be like him."

the respect and reality check for the difference in quality might

appear realistic at the moment, but in terms of the teaching [see the

recent posted quote from Maa] if everyone does ultimately -- over

lifetimes maybe -- come to realization, then it is a misstatement.

that the guru principle is beyond the physical is born out by the fact

that ramakrishna's story is still teaching us, although he does not

walk the earth. or if he does, it is via another body.

everything is looked at through the lens of your meditation,

everything will be sifted through there. how we are moved is different

for each. your superficiality might be my depth, everything is

relative and passing, we keep going for the truth even if the guru

himself lets us down, the ultimate principle is god.

to have god as our friend we must be that friend. all of this from

cleaning to worship is to take us out of ourselves into the unlimited.

there is no other use for this, this is the higher purpose of the guru

gita.

, Berijoy <berijoy> wrote:

> hello chris,

> for me, i am still trying to appreciate the guru gita. i think

even

> though i have discrimination in whom i would likely surrender to

(sure

> like to think so anyway), i still find it difficult to get

whatever it

> is others are getting from this text. i am just not so moved as i

wish i

> was. and the idea of a kind of guru worship--well, even if

> intellectually i know that this guru is the ultimate principle,

it's

> still a human being modelling the principle for us. while i can

> definitely defer to those who have more spiritual knowledge and

> experience than me, in general, i see gurus or saints the same as i

see

> jesus the christ, and that is as teachers and examples of how to do

it

> right. that i get. perhaps it is what others do in the presence of

> saints that gives me pause. while i think a certain reverance and

awe is

> in order, the sometimes fawning (or so it seems to me), almost

falling

> over the guru that i have read about seems exaggerated.

>

> i suppose i have not yet learned to understand and appreciate the

> "gurudeva for what she does for us." what is the 'much' that is

> received from the guru in the body? i would really like to feel and

get

> this connection that many seem to have.

>

> > In the tradition I came from, though in truth my gurudeva loved

his

> > master very much, obeyed him completely, and respected him

highly,

> > the "order" was that the guru was not to be worshipped. The fact

of

> > the matter is, though, that there is no other definition I know

of

> > for worship than the demonstration of love, obedience, and

respect.

> >

> > Anyway, when I read the Guru Gita the first few times it seemed

to

> > promote guru-worship to the point of mindlessness, and that

tended to

> > put me off. But in the introduction Swamiji points out that as

> > disciples we need to use our discrimination, so there is a way to

> > approach the Guru, surrender, and become an extension of the

Guru,

> > without losing our personal uniqueness. The Guru Gita itself

focuses

> > so much on the attainment of wisdom that it surprises me I never

> > really noticed before.

> >

> > The gurutattwa gives us everything - our very lives - and much is

> > received through the guru in the body. We can never repay the

> > gurudeva for what she does for us. How can one repay what is

beyond

> > price? If we receive even a little light from the Guru in this

life,

> > how much suffering is averted, how much peace created? The

Gurudeva

> > is the font of all grace. I offer myself at the feet of the

gurudeva.

> > I bow, I bow, I bow to the compassionate gurudeva.

> >

> > Jai Maa! Chris

> >

>

> Be Love,

> Berijoy

> http://www.egyirba.net

> `/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/

> -=-=-

> ...

> Self-enquiry is the direct path to Self-realization or

enlightenment.

> The only way to make the mind

> cease its outward activities is to turn it inward. By steady and

> continuous investigation into the nature

> of the mind, the mind itself gets transformed into That to which it

owes

> its own existence. - Ramesh S. Balsekar

> -=-=-

> ...

> Sometimes our light goes out but is blown into a flame by another

human

> being. Each of us owes deepest thanks to those who have rekindled

this

> light. --Albert Schweitzer

May 22, 2005

Namaste! Your posts echoes the sentiments of many westerners who

because of conditioning, do not see past the bodily form. The mere

fact that you are here and have taken the time to read and respond to

posts means that something within you is being stirred. You speak of

others "falling over the guru" but when that energy starts to rise

we have no control because we have surrendered to the Supreme - that

Her/His WIll be done.

That energy that is within us known as the Kundalini portrays our

inner, dormant energy or Sakti, seen in the form of a coiled serpent

at the root chakra, waiting to be awakened and rises from Muladhara

to Sahasrara at the crown. It represents a corresponding rise in

personal consciousness, understood as the union of Siva and Sakti,

consciousness and nature. This is the energy that takes us to union

with our creator but we need a guide so that it cna be done

correctly. This is guide is the Guru. The True Guru, though in a

physical body, has absolutely no

attachment of the body and sees the soul our the devotee. Through

his/her love and compassion works with us to take our minds inwards

to reconnect with the soul.

Jai Maa!

Berijoy <berijoy > wrote:

hello chris,for me, i am still trying to appreciate the guru gita. i

think even though i have discrimination in whom i would likely

surrender to (sure like to think so anyway), i still find it

difficult to get whatever it is others are getting from this text. i

am just not so moved as i wish i was. and the idea of a kind of guru

worship--well, even if intellectually i know that this guru is the

ultimate principle, it's still a human being modelling the principle

for us. while i can definitely defer to those who have more spiritual

knowledge and experience than me, in general, i see gurus or saints

the same as i see jesus the christ, and that is as teachers and

examples of how to do it right. that i get. perhaps it is what others

do in the presence of saints that gives me pause. while i think a

certain reverance and awe is in order, the sometimes fawning (or

so it seems to me), almost falling over the guru that i have read

about seems exaggerated.i suppose i have not yet learned to

understand and appreciate the "gurudeva for what she does for us."

what is the 'much' that is received from the guru in the body? i

would really like to feel and get this connection that many seem to

have.> In the tradition I came from, though in truth my gurudeva

loved his > master very much, obeyed him completely, and respected

him highly, > the "order" was that the guru was not to be worshipped.

The fact of > the matter is, though, that there is no other definition

I know of > for worship than the demonstration of love, obedience, and

respect.> > Anyway, when I read the Guru Gita the first few times it

seemed to > promote guru-worship to the point of mindlessness, and

that tended to> put me off. But in the introduction Swamiji points

out that as > disciples we need to use our discrimination, so there is

a way to > approach the Guru, surrender, and become an extension of

the Guru, > without losing our personal uniqueness. The Guru Gita

itself focuses> so much on the attainment of wisdom that it surprises

me I never > really noticed before.> > The gurutattwa gives us

everything - our very lives - and much is > received through the guru

in the body. We can never repay the > gurudeva for what she does for

us. How can one repay what is beyond > price? If we receive even a

little light from the Guru in this life, > how much suffering is

averted, how much peace created? The Gurudeva > is the font of all

grace. I offer myself at the feet of the gurudeva.> I bow, I bow, I

bow to the compassionate gurudeva.> > Jai Maa! Chris> > Be

Love,Berijoyhttp://www.egyirba.net`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/-=-=-...Self-enquiry

is the direct path to Self-realization or enlightenment. The only way

to make the mindcease its outward activities is to turn it inward.

By steady and continuous investigation into the natureof the mind,

the mind itself gets transformed into That to which it owes its own

existence. - Ramesh S. Balsekar-=-=-... Sometimes our light goes out

but is blown into a flame by another human being. Each of us owes

deepest thanks to those who have rekindled this light. --Albert

Schweitzer

Make your home page

May 23, 2005

thank you raj talwar

this is put so well. i do understand that it is the principle that the

human emulates for us and i have no problem with that. and the

ultimate principle is god. i guess i have read so many things where

people have been self-deprecating or the gurus have seemingly modelled

less-than-gurulike behavior, that it gets hard to remember or believe

that the real deal (shreemaa and swamiji) exist. and to surrender to

that when all the voices (asuras?) tell you watch out, be careful,

don't be stupid, etc. but yes, respect and dignity, without a doubt,

should be afforded.

once again, thank you for your compassionate and gentle response.

Steve Connor wrote:

> hi berijoy,

>

> so honestly stated. thank u.

>

> i think there are times fawning and devotion get sort of mixed up.

or

> maybe it just looks like that. i would say it is unquestionably

> alien to the western mind-set.

>

> my thinking is this: we wish to always take on the highest

> understanding we can. if we believe in the guru as principle, so

be

> it.

>

> the human guru is sort of holder of that flame, to the extent they

> are able. they need to be very successful practitioners themselves.

>

> my personal feeling is, it is not necessary for everyone to have

that

> kind of personal devotion feeling. but to learn respect and

dignity,

> that is another matter. "you are teaching me this, this is the best

> thing ever, thank you!"

>

> here is where it is both wrong and right: "the guru is above me,

he

> is so much better than me, i can never be like him."

>

> the respect and reality check for the difference in quality might

> appear realistic at the moment, but in terms of the teaching [see

the

> recent posted quote from Maa] if everyone does ultimately -- over

> lifetimes maybe -- come to realization, then it is a misstatement.

>

> that the guru principle is beyond the physical is born out by the

> fact that ramakrishna's story is still teaching us, although he

does

> not walk the earth. or if he does, it is via another body.

>

> everything is looked at through the lens of your meditation,

> everything will be sifted through there. how we are moved is

> different for each. your superficiality might be my depth,

everything

> is relative and passing, we keep going for the truth even if the

> guru himself lets us down, the ultimate principle is god.

>

> to have god as our friend we must be that friend. all of this from

> cleaning to worship is to take us out of ourselves into the

> unlimited. there is no other use for this, this is the higher

purpose

> of the guru gita.

Be Love,

Berijoy

http://www.egyirba.net

`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/

-=-=-

....

Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will

surprise you with their ingenuity. ~Patton

-=-=-

....

If you get to thinking you're a person of some influence, try ordering

somebody else's dog around.

May 23, 2005

namaste kalia

thank you for your thoughts on this. i think i've heard so many

'stories' about this or that guru and it seems to me that people often

have either taken leave of their senses, or have been taken in by

those who have used the holy office for nefarious purposes. i think

such stories give me pause, and make it more difficult to surrender.

yes, i'm sure my western conditioning only makes things worse for me.

i wish i had that natural move toward the guru that easterners seem to

possess. not that i don't believe there is authenticity--like i said i

know that swamiji and shreemaa are the real deal, i just know that--and

i do believe we benefit from having a guru to guide us through that

journey to union. and i know i surely need that!

jai guru!

> Dear Berijoy,

>

> Namaste! Your posts echoes the sentiments of many westerners who

> because of conditioning, do not see past the bodily form. The mere

> fact that you are here and have taken the time to read and respond

to

> posts means that something within you is being stirred. You speak

> of others "falling over the guru" but when that energy starts to

> rise we have no control because we have surrendered to the Supreme

-

> that Her/His WIll be done.

>

> That energy that is within us known as the Kundalini portrays our

> inner, dormant energy or Sakti, seen in the form of a coiled

serpent

> at the root chakra, waiting to be awakened and rises from

Muladhara

> to Sahasrara at the crown. It represents a corresponding rise in

> personal consciousness, understood as the union of Siva and Sakti,

> consciousness and nature. This is the energy that takes us to

union

> with our creator but we need a guide so that it cna be done

> correctly. This is guide is the Guru. The True Guru, though in a

> physical body, has absolutely no attachment of the body and sees

the

> soul our the devotee. Through his/her love and compassion works

with

> us to take our minds inwards to reconnect with the soul.

>

> Jai Maa!

Be Love,

Berijoy

http://www.egyirba.net

`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/

-=-=-

....

The old people came literally to love the earth.... to remove their

moccasins and walk with bare feet on the sacred earth. ~LUTHER

STANDING BEAR - LAKOTA CHIEF

-=-=-

....

Wisdom comes alone through suffering. ~Aeschylus 525-456 BC

May 23, 2005

Berijoy,

It is difficult for me to say just what it is the gurudeva does for

her beloved disciples. There is so much, so much that we cannot do for

ourselves.

What do you want from spiritual life? Why pursue spirit? Why not just

devote yourself to getting whatever you can from life, money,

position, name and fame?

If there is something more for you in life than these things, it is

the role of the gurudeva to help you get it, even to give it to you.

My gurudeva wrote that we are born into a family and raised by loving

parents, who teach us, protect us and feed us. Later, we go to school

and sit at the feet of our teachers, who also teach us many things

about how to get by in the world. The gurudeva takes up where parents

and teachers leave off.

Unlike teachers, and even the best of parents, the gurudeva's love for

her students is completely unselfish, completely devoted to the

student's ultimate good. The gurudeva has trodden the path of

spirituality and realization and knows all of the obstacles and all of

the ways. Like a loving mother, the gurudeva loves, feeds and

protects, but spiritually. When a guru accepts a student she takes on

at least part of that students karmic debt, so that the student has

time and opportunity to grow spiritually.

As a parent, a teacher, a healer, etc, all fulfill their own

particular role in creation, so does the gurudeva. That role is to

bring disciples to the realization of their own nature, and so fulfill

the purpose of their lives. This is accomplished in loving dedication,

and I believe, with many pains, freely accepted.

I understand very well the inner struggle to see the guru as anything

other than a wise person. I won't belabor the fact that the gurudeva

is possessed of divine consciousness, you already know that in your

head. Surrender to the guru, like surrender to God, requires an

initial experience of clarity, a foundation upon which faith is built.

Full faith in the gurudeva doesn't come all at once, I don't think.

Like a relationship, full faith in the gurudeva builds over time, with

experience and realization. But, you should understand (though I'm

sure you already do) the resistance to surrender is only ego.

There came a time in my life when I realized that everything I had,

everything I valued, was the gift of my gurudeva, that he had left a

presence within, a gift of knowledge, a gift of love. I came to

understand that he was watching over me, guiding me, and helping me in

ways I may never fully know. At first I saw him as someone who could

help me and perhaps train me. I never met him in person, but his

presence within and without was real, and he gave all he had to give,

asking nothing in return, not even my acknowledgment.

Many people seem to believe they have no need of a guru. They rely on

the grace of God, or just themselves. These same people would not rely

on a self-trained physician, or attempt an operation by reading a

book. Spirituality is, in its way, every bit as complex. No university

can give you what the guru provides. The same God whose grace flows to

all, equally, also gave us the guru. It is up to us if we take

advantage of this particular grace.

Swamiji also speaks of the guru as an example, but I think he is just

being practical, and doesn't want to attract sensation-seekers. The

gurudeva is so very much more. Personally, I cannot imagine facing

myself and my life without the guidance, protection, and help of the

gurudeva.

As far as the Guru Gita is concerned, as I said in my other post, I

didn't take to it immediately either. Mother wanted us to study it,

and I felt that I needed to chant it in order to receive its grace.

Mother said studying the Guru Gita would give us devotion, so I had

that expectation.

As I have continued to work with it, it has begun to open up for me.

My experience with my gurudeva gives me a context for relating to it

with devotion and understanding.

If you want to increase your own faith in, and experience of, the

gurudeva, I think the first step is to really cultivate that desire.

The more you want it, the closer it will be to becoming a reality for

you. Consider just what your resistance is, what fears are there, what

desires, and how important they are to you. Read the writings of

saints and pay attention when they talk about their own guru. If their

accounts inspire you, consider emulating their example. Finally, I

think prayer for a closer connection and more devotion can go a long

way toward dissolving obstacles in the heart and mind.

It will likely help you too, if you follow along in the Guru Gita

study. Every statement made in the Guru Gita is true. If you can

accept that, consider what it means for you and your life. If you

cannot accept it, try imagining what it might mean if it were true.

Sometimes this can help cultivate the desire that ultimately leads to

experience.

Hope I didn't go on too long : )

May the blessings of the guru be with you...

Jai Maa!

Chris

, Berijoy <berijoy> wrote:

> hello chris,

> for me, i am still trying to appreciate the guru gita. i think even

> though i have discrimination in whom i would likely surrender to (sure

> like to think so anyway), i still find it difficult to get whatever it

> is others are getting from this text. i am just not so moved as i

wish i

> was. and the idea of a kind of guru worship--well, even if

> intellectually i know that this guru is the ultimate principle, it's

> still a human being modelling the principle for us. while i can

> definitely defer to those who have more spiritual knowledge and

> experience than me, in general, i see gurus or saints the same as i

see

> jesus the christ, and that is as teachers and examples of how to do it

> right. that i get. perhaps it is what others do in the presence of

> saints that gives me pause. while i think a certain reverance and

awe is

> in order, the sometimes fawning (or so it seems to me), almost falling

> over the guru that i have read about seems exaggerated.

>

> i suppose i have not yet learned to understand and appreciate the

> "gurudeva for what she does for us." what is the 'much' that is

> received from the guru in the body? i would really like to feel and

get

> this connection that many seem to have.

>

May 23, 2005

Since you know "there is authenticity" and that "swamiji and shreemaa

are the real deal" then why not try it for yourself, allow yourself to

fall in love ...only then will you really understand what it is like.

Believe me, you will never, never regret it.

Thanks so much for sharing you thoughts with us, Maa and Swamiji

always likes honesty. May Guru's arms enfold you and guide you.

Love always

KaliaBerijoy <berijoy > wrote:

namaste kaliathank you for your thoughts on this. i think i've heard

so many 'stories' about this or that guru and it seems to me that

people often have either taken leave of their senses, or have been

taken in by those who have used the holy office for nefarious

purposes. i think such stories give me pause, and make it more

difficult to surrender. yes, i'm sure my western conditioning only

makes things worse for me. i wish i had that natural move toward the

guru that easterners seem to possess. not that i don't believe there

is authenticity--like i said i know that swamiji and shreemaa are the

real deal, i just know that--and i do believe we benefit from having a

guru to guide us through that journey to union. and i know i surely

need that!jai guru!> Dear Berijoy,> > Namaste! Your posts echoes the

sentiments of many westerners who > because of conditioning, do not

see past the bodily form. The mere > fact that you are here and have

taken the time to read and respond to> posts means that something

within you is being stirred. You speak> of others "falling over the

guru" but when that energy starts to> rise we have no control because

we have surrendered to the Supreme -> that Her/His WIll be done.> >

That energy that is within us known as the Kundalini portrays our >

inner, dormant energy or Sakti, seen in the form of a coiled serpent

> at the root chakra, waiting to be awakened and rises from Muladhara

> to Sahasrara at the crown. It represents a corresponding rise in >

personal consciousness, understood as the union of Siva and Sakti, >

consciousness and nature. This is the energy that takes us

to union > with our creator but we need a guide so that it cna be done

> correctly. This is guide is the Guru. The True Guru, though in a >

physical body, has absolutely no attachment of the body and sees the

> soul our the devotee. Through his/her love and compassion works

with > us to take our minds inwards to reconnect with the soul.> >

Jai Maa!Be

Love,Berijoyhttp://www.egyirba.net`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/-=-=-...The

old people came literally to love the earth.... to remove their

moccasins and walk with bare feet on the sacred earth. ~LUTHER

STANDING BEAR - LAKOTA CHIEF-=-=-... Wisdom comes alone through

suffering. ~Aeschylus 525-456 BC

Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour

May 23, 2005

Berijoy,

I echo Nanda in saying, thank you for your honesty! personally, I

don't believe that the voices saying "watch out, be careful, don't

be stupid, etc." are asurik voices at all. (but the ones that say "you

don't deserve happiness or a relationship with God/guru" ARE asurik.)

in my opinion, we need a measure of skepticism on the spiritual path

or we run the risk of becoming inflexible fanatics, of burning out and

dropping out, or even of going insane.

Ramakrishna knew this and that's why he urged prospective disciples

like Naren (later Vivekananda) to test him and to question him.

skepticism ultimately has less to do with our belief systems than with

helping us manage the huge amounts of energy that sadhana tends to

release...and of course, the guru helps us with this, too.

Om Kali Ma

K

, Berijoy <berijoy> wrote:

> thank you raj talwar

>

> this is put so well. i do understand that it is the principle that

the

> human emulates for us and i have no problem with that. and the

ultimate

> principle is god. i guess i have read so many things where people

have

> been self-deprecating or the gurus have seemingly modelled

> less-than-gurulike behavior, that it gets hard to remember or

believe

> that the real deal (shreemaa and swamiji) exist. and to surrender

to

> that when all the voices (asuras?) tell you watch out, be careful,

don't

> be stupid, etc. but yes, respect and dignity, without a doubt,

should

> be afforded.

>

> once again, thank you for your compassionate and gentle response.

>

> Steve Connor wrote:

>

> > hi berijoy,

> >

> > so honestly stated. thank u.

> >

> > i think there are times fawning and devotion get sort of mixed

up. or

> > maybe it just looks like that. i would say it is unquestionably

> > alien to the western mind-set.

> >

> > my thinking is this: we wish to always take on the highest

> > understanding we can. if we believe in the guru as principle, so

be

> > it.

> >

> > the human guru is sort of holder of that flame, to the extent

they

> > are able. they need to be very successful practitioners

themselves.

> >

> > my personal feeling is, it is not necessary for everyone to have

that

> > kind of personal devotion feeling. but to learn respect and

dignity,

> > that is another matter. "you are teaching me this, this is the

best

> > thing ever, thank you!"

> >

> > here is where it is both wrong and right: "the guru is above me,

he

> > is so much better than me, i can never be like him."

> >

> > the respect and reality check for the difference in quality might

> > appear realistic at the moment, but in terms of the teaching

[see the

> > recent posted quote from Maa] if everyone does ultimately -- over

> > lifetimes maybe -- come to realization, then it is a

misstatement.

> >

> > that the guru principle is beyond the physical is born out by the

> > fact that ramakrishna's story is still teaching us, although he

does

> > not walk the earth. or if he does, it is via another body.

> >

> > everything is looked at through the lens of your meditation,

> > everything will be sifted through there. how we are moved is

> > different for each. your superficiality might be my depth,

everything

> > is relative and passing, we keep going for the truth even if the

> > guru himself lets us down, the ultimate principle is god.

> >

> > to have god as our friend we must be that friend. all of this

from

> > cleaning to worship is to take us out of ourselves into the

> > unlimited. there is no other use for this, this is the higher

purpose

> > of the guru gita.

>

> Be Love,

> Berijoy

> http://www.egyirba.net

> `/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/`/

> -=-=-

> ...

> Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they

will

> surprise you with their ingenuity. ~Patton

> -=-=-

> ...

> If you get to thinking you're a person of some influence, try

ordering

> somebody else's dog around.

May 23, 2005

You raise an interesting point.

"while i think a certain reverance and awe is in order, the sometimes

fawning (or so it seems to me), almost falling over the guru that i

have read about seems exaggerated."

It's a point well taken. I have seen Maa react to the exaggerated

fawning or falling over reverence to Her in a way that makes one

think Maa feels the same way about it. Shree Maa, and Swami Ji also,

seem to be able to look into the heart of the person who offers

reverence to them, and know whether or not it's real or just for

show.

It seems to depend on where the person's heart is at. Also Maa and

Swami are very humble. Every time I've seen people try to put a

garland of flowers on Swami Ji, he immedeately tries to take it off,

or won't even allow it. Maa usually allows the garland, but takes it

off after a few minutes and offers it to one of the deities, thus

giving it to God. Sometimes when Maa would straiten up someone's

alter, if there was a picture of Maa on the alter, along with other

deities, etc., Maa would put Her picture towards the back of the

alter, thus giving the dieties the front. Berijoy <berijoy >

wrote: