Guest guest Posted May 28, 2005 Report Share Posted May 28, 2005 Today dear friends we have reached vere 128. "Oh Goddess, also instructions about the path of the Guru to liberation, devotion to the Guru, as well as meditation, all have been explained." Since this verse does not need any clarification, maybe there is a something that one of us would like to discuss relating to the topic or to previous verses. I would like to offer sincere thanks for your support in responding to the verses and bringing out some very insightful discussions and questions. May we all grow in love and peace. Jai Gurujis. Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2005 Report Share Posted May 28, 2005 Kalia, Do you think this verse represents a statement of the organization of the text up to this point? If so, we have recently looked at the explanation of meditation, so we're left with devotion and the path of the Guru. Are there discrete sections devoted to these areas, or are they scattered throughout? Shiva is saying this "path of the Guru" has been explained. It is, apparently, a major theme? I can only recall a couple of verses that mention it specifically. What do you think is meant/referred to as "the path of the Guru"? Anyone have any ideas on this? Jai Maa! Chris , Kali Kali <kaliananda_saraswati> wrote: > Today dear friends we have reached vere 128. > > "Oh Goddess, also instructions about the path of the Guru to liberation, devotion to the Guru, as well as meditation, all have been explained." > > Since this verse does not need any clarification, maybe there is a something that one of us would like to discuss relating to the topic or to previous verses. > I would like to offer sincere thanks for your support in responding to the verses and bringing out some very insightful discussions and questions. May we all grow in love and peace. > > Jai Gurujis. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2005 Report Share Posted May 28, 2005 Kalia and Chrisji and all, my thoughts: I don't understand why the path and devotion are mentioned separately in this verse: I think devotion IS the path of the Guru. After Shiva has explained that the Guru is the Supreme Divinity and the soul of intelligence, 'the one who gives rise to the light by which illumination is known', he immediately goes on to explain how we are to purify our soul: by selfless loving service and devotion to the Guru (vs 11 and further). The purification of the soul and the Guru giving rise to the light within appear to be the same process: 'knowledge is attained through devotion to the Guru'. The path is mentioned explicitly in verse 99, where it is said that 'by means of the path of intuitive vision of the Guru, the mind should be made pure'. To cultivate our love for the Guru leads to knowing the Guru and knowing the Guru is knowing All. Practical advice as to how to cultivate this love is given right in the beginning of the text and is repeated often: remember the Guru, meditate on the Guru, recite the mantra of the Guru, remember the image of the Guru, observe the instruction of the Guru, maintain the attitude of the Guru. To do all this is not easy, so the recitation of the Guru Gita itself helps strengthen our devotion. And the remainder of the text appears to explain how to recite with the most benefit. with love, Henny , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956> wrote: > Kalia, > > Do you think this verse represents a statement of the organization of > the text up to this point? If so, we have recently looked at the > explanation of meditation, so we're left with devotion and the path of > the Guru. Are there discrete sections devoted to these areas, or are > they scattered throughout? > > Shiva is saying this "path of the Guru" has been explained. It is, > apparently, a major theme? I can only recall a couple of verses that > mention it specifically. What do you think is meant/referred to as > "the path of the Guru"? > > Anyone have any ideas on this? > > Jai Maa! > Chris > > > > , Kali Kali > <kaliananda_saraswati> wrote: > > Today dear friends we have reached vere 128. > > > > "Oh Goddess, also instructions about the path of the Guru to > liberation, devotion to the Guru, as well as meditation, all have been > explained." > > > > Since this verse does not need any clarification, maybe there is a > something that one of us would like to discuss relating to the topic > or to previous verses. > > I would like to offer sincere thanks for your support in responding > to the verses and bringing out some very insightful discussions and > questions. May we all grow in love and peace. > > > > Jai Gurujis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2005 Report Share Posted May 28, 2005 Following the path does not necessarily mean that one has devotion. Remember verse 104 of the Guru Gita - "One who speaks to the Guru with egotism, to attain victory in an argument, may be Brahmaraksasah .........." I do not think that such a one is really devoted to the Guru though following a path, rather, that one is devoted to his or her ego. The path can be said to be the method, devotion the fruit derived from that method. Through constant sadhana be it seva to the Guru, satsangha, puja, etc. the mind is made still. Devotion is derived from performing these actions and growing more and more in love. The action MUST be constant. Remember verse 4 of the Atha Kilakam - there is no mantra, no medicine, nor anything else known by which indifference to all can be attained without repeated application. Please share your thoughts on this? Kalia. henny_v_i <HvI (AT) SoftHome (DOT) net> wrote: Kalia and Chrisji and all,my thoughts:I don't understand why the path and devotion are mentioned separately in this verse: I think devotion IS the path of the Guru. After Shiva has explained that the Guru is the Supreme Divinity and the soul of intelligence, 'the one who gives rise to the light by which illumination is known', he immediately goes on to explain how we are to purify our soul: by selfless loving service and devotion to the Guru (vs 11 and further). The purification of the soul and the Guru giving rise to the light within appear to be the same process: 'knowledge is attained through devotion to the Guru'. The path is mentioned explicitly in verse 99, where it is said that 'by means of the path of intuitive vision of the Guru, the mind should be made pure'. To cultivate our love for the Guru leads to knowing the Guru and knowing the Guru is knowing All. Practical advice as to how to cultivate this love is given right in the beginning of the text and is repeated often: remember the Guru, meditate on the Guru, recite the mantra of the Guru, remember the image of the Guru, observe the instruction of the Guru, maintain the attitude of the Guru. To do all this is not easy, so the recitation of the Guru Gita itself helps strengthen our devotion. And the remainder of the text appears to explain how to recite with the most benefit.with love,Henny, "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956> wrote:> Kalia,> > Do you think this verse represents a statement of the organization of> the text up to this point? If so, we have recently looked at the> explanation of meditation, so we're left with devotion and the path of> the Guru. Are there discrete sections devoted to these areas, or are> they scattered throughout?> > Shiva is saying this "path of the Guru" has been explained. It is,> apparently, a major theme? I can only recall a couple of verses that> mention it specifically. What do you think is meant/referred to as> "the path of the Guru"?> > Anyone have any ideas on this?> > Jai Maa!> Chris> > > > , Kali Kali> <kaliananda_saraswati> wrote:> > Today dear friends we have reached vere 128. > > > > "Oh Goddess, also instructions about the path of the Guru to> liberation, devotion to the Guru, as well as meditation, all have been> explained."> > > > Since this verse does not need any clarification, maybe there is a> something that one of us would like to discuss relating to the topic> or to previous verses. > > I would like to offer sincere thanks for your support in responding> to the verses and bringing out some very insightful discussions and> questions. May we all grow in love and peace.> > > > Jai Gurujis.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do You ?Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 28, 2005 Report Share Posted May 28, 2005 kalia jumping in, ok? over and over and over and over again. that is the way. it is not the same water, but it is the same river. ommmmm let the river flow. what if i have to swim up the river? stroke, stroke, stroke! over and over and over! sometimes it seems the swimmer is swept away sometimes the strokes get stronger sometimes it seems, the course of the river itself changes to suit him. om! let the river of your own practice flow. raj talwar , Kali Kali <kaliananda_saraswati> wrote: > Dear Henny and Chris, > > Following the path does not necessarily mean that one has devotion. Remember verse 104 of the Guru Gita - > > "One who speaks to the Guru with egotism, to attain victory in an argument, may be Brahmaraksasah .........." I do not think that such a one is really devoted to the Guru though following a path, rather, that one is devoted to his or her ego. > > The path can be said to be the method, devotion the fruit derived from that method. Through constant sadhana be it seva to the Guru, satsangha, puja, etc. the mind is made still. Devotion is derived from performing these actions and growing more and more in love. The action MUST be constant. > > Remember verse 4 of the Atha Kilakam - there is no mantra, no medicine, nor anything else known by which indifference to all can be attained without repeated application. > > Please share your thoughts on this? > > Kalia. > > > henny_v_i <HvI@S...> wrote: > Kalia and Chrisji and all, > > my thoughts: > > I don't understand why the path and devotion are mentioned separately > in this verse: I think devotion IS the path of the Guru. After Shiva > has explained that the Guru is the Supreme Divinity and the soul of > intelligence, 'the one who gives rise to the light by which > illumination is known', he immediately goes on to explain how we are > to purify our soul: by selfless loving service and devotion to the > Guru (vs 11 and further). The purification of the soul and the Guru > giving rise to the light within appear to be the same process: > 'knowledge is attained through devotion to the Guru'. The path is > mentioned explicitly in verse 99, where it is said that 'by means of > the path of intuitive vision of the Guru, the mind should be made > pure'. To cultivate our love for the Guru leads to knowing the Guru > and knowing the Guru is knowing All. > Practical advice as to how to cultivate this love is given right in > the beginning of the text and is repeated often: remember the Guru, > meditate on the Guru, recite the mantra of the Guru, remember the > image of the Guru, observe the instruction of the Guru, maintain the > attitude of the Guru. To do all this is not easy, so the recitation of > the Guru Gita itself helps strengthen our devotion. And the remainder > of the text appears to explain how to recite with the most benefit. > > with love, > Henny > > > > , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956> > wrote: > > Kalia, > > > > Do you think this verse represents a statement of the organization > of > > the text up to this point? If so, we have recently looked at the > > explanation of meditation, so we're left with devotion and the path > of > > the Guru. Are there discrete sections devoted to these areas, or are > > they scattered throughout? > > > > Shiva is saying this "path of the Guru" has been explained. It is, > > apparently, a major theme? I can only recall a couple of verses that > > mention it specifically. What do you think is meant/referred to as > > "the path of the Guru"? > > > > Anyone have any ideas on this? > > > > Jai Maa! > > Chris > > > > > > > > , Kali Kali > > <kaliananda_saraswati> wrote: > > > Today dear friends we have reached vere 128. > > > > > > "Oh Goddess, also instructions about the path of the Guru to > > liberation, devotion to the Guru, as well as meditation, all have > been > > explained." > > > > > > Since this verse does not need any clarification, maybe there is a > > something that one of us would like to discuss relating to the topic > > or to previous verses. > > > I would like to offer sincere thanks for your support in > responding > > to the verses and bringing out some very insightful discussions and > > questions. May we all grow in love and peace. > > > > > > Jai Gurujis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > / > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2005 Report Share Posted May 29, 2005 You are welcomed to jump in any time, over and over again ! KaliaSteve Connor <sconnor (AT) austin (DOT) rr.com> wrote: kaliajumping in, ok?over and over and over and over again.that is the way.it is not the same water, but it is the same river.ommmmm let the river flow.what if i have to swim up the river?stroke, stroke, stroke!over and over and over!sometimes it seems the swimmer is swept awaysometimes the strokes get strongersometimes it seems, the course of the river itself changes to suithim.om! let the river of your own practice flow.raj talwar, Kali Kali<kaliananda_saraswati> wrote:> Dear Henny and Chris, > > Following the path does not necessarily mean that one has devotion.Remember verse 104 of the Guru Gita -> > "One who speaks to the Guru with egotism, to attain victory in anargument, may be Brahmaraksasah .........." I do not think that such aone is really devoted to the Guru though following a path, rather,that one is devoted to his or her ego.> > The path can be said to be the method, devotion the fruit derivedfrom that method. Through constant sadhana be it seva to the Guru,satsangha, puja, etc. the mind is made still. Devotion is derivedfrom performing these actions and growing more and more in love. Theaction MUST be constant.> > Remember verse 4 of the Atha Kilakam - there is no mantra, nomedicine, nor anything else known by which indifference to all can beattained without repeated application.> > Please share your thoughts on this?> > Kalia.> > > henny_v_i <HvI@S...> wrote:> Kalia and Chrisji and all,> > my thoughts:> > I don't understand why the path and devotion are mentionedseparately > in this verse: I think devotion IS the path of the Guru. AfterShiva > has explained that the Guru is the Supreme Divinity and the soul of > intelligence, 'the one who gives rise to the light by which > illumination is known', he immediately goes on to explain how weare > to purify our soul: by selfless loving service and devotion to the > Guru (vs 11 and further). The purification of the soul and the Guru > giving rise to the light within appear to be the same process: > 'knowledge is attained through devotion to the Guru'. The path is > mentioned explicitly in verse 99, where it is said that 'by meansof > the path of intuitive vision of the Guru, the mind should be made > pure'. To cultivate our love for the Guru leads to knowing the Guru > and knowing the Guru is knowing All. > Practical advice as to how to cultivate this love is given right in > the beginning of the text and is repeated often: remember the Guru, > meditate on the Guru, recite the mantra of the Guru, remember the > image of the Guru, observe the instruction of the Guru, maintainthe > attitude of the Guru. To do all this is not easy, so the recitationof > the Guru Gita itself helps strengthen our devotion. And theremainder > of the text appears to explain how to recite with the most benefit.> > with love,> Henny> > > > , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956> > wrote:> > Kalia,> > > > Do you think this verse represents a statement of theorganization > of> > the text up to this point? If so, we have recently looked at the> > explanation of meditation, so we're left with devotion and thepath > of> > the Guru. Are there discrete sections devoted to these areas, orare> > they scattered throughout?> > > > Shiva is saying this "path of the Guru" has been explained. It is,> > apparently, a major theme? I can only recall a couple of versesthat> > mention it specifically. What do you think is meant/referred to as> > "the path of the Guru"?> > > > Anyone have any ideas on this?> > > > Jai Maa!> > Chris> > > > > > > > --- In , Kali Kali> > <kaliananda_saraswati> wrote:> > > Today dear friends we have reached vere 128. > > > > > > "Oh Goddess, also instructions about the path of the Guru to> > liberation, devotion to the Guru, as well as meditation, all have > been> > explained."> > > > > > Since this verse does not need any clarification, maybe thereis a> > something that one of us would like to discuss relating to thetopic> > or to previous verses. > > > I would like to offer sincere thanks for your support in > responding> > to the verses and bringing out some very insightful discussionsand> > questions. May we all grow in love and peace.> > > > > > Jai Gurujis.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do You ?> > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links> > To visit your group on the web, go to:> /> > To from this group, send an email to:> > > Your use of Groups is subject to the Terms ofService. > > > > > > Do You ?Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2005 Report Share Posted May 29, 2005 Henny, My tendency has been the same, to think that the path of the guru is devotion to the guru, but I am not sure that is all that is meant. Your point is well taken, I think, why mention devotion and the path of the guru and meditation separately if they are the same? I'm not sure I have the answers, but there are some clues in the beginning of the text that provide some hints, I think. First, in the viniyoga it says that the purpose of this recitation is, "...to attain perfection in the blessings of the Guru..." Now, viniyogas are usually, in my experience, short and concise, but since this is the definitive statement of the purpose of the scripture, it is important to recognize that it is specific in its purpose, and no mention of any particular path or practice is mentioned. Parvati asks in verse 3, "...teach the path by means of which a seeker becomes one with Supreme Divinity." Now, this seems straightforward, we're going to see a path explained, and that path will lead to unity with Supreme Divinity, but after stating what is likely the central message of the scripture, that the guru is the Supreme Divinity, Shiva lists a whole bunch of disciplines and paths (vs. 6-8) and says these people, "...in the absence of understanding the principle of Guru, perform like fools." Coming so soon in the beginning of the text, it seems likely Shiva is speaking to His audience here, and he is speaking to people involved in all manner of spiritual disciplines, all the various paths. Given the emphasis on wisdom in the text, I think it is likely the author is directing his writing, mostly, to a certain kind of devotee, the advanced devotee, proud of his spiritual accomplishments. Such a devotee performs like a fool, without understanding the principle of guru, why? Perhaps because as long as he is puffed-up with pride, and without an experience of the guru's true nature all his efforts produce little fruit of value. Usually, when you look at a scripture that details a path, it is applicable to a certain kind of discipline, Samaya Tantra, for instance, or Hatha Yoga, but this `path' is, I think, applied to all the paths and disciplines equally. So, if true, it is both a path, and not a path. It is true that there are a few systematic meditation practices given here, but they are few in relation to the rest of the text, and really serve the stated purpose of "perfection in the blessings of the Guru." It is also true that the text does, it seems to me, describe a complete path, ie. one that can take a practitioner from the beginning all the way to union, but even so, one must take into account the necessary presence of the physical gurudeva and the fact that she would most certainly assign specific practices to all her students. One assumes that these people practicing all these disciplines are doing so under the instruction of their own gurudeva. Could this fact, then, be part of the `path of the Guru'? Could it be part of the meaning of `the feet of the Guru' that is mentioned so often? As Kalia mentioned some time ago, service to the guru is also a central theme. I would ask, what service to the guru is greater than to perform one's practices, as given, with discipline, reverence, and illumination of consciousness? What worship is greater than to lovingly offer one's daily practice at the guru's feet? Strangely, perhaps, the text never mentions specifically doing the practices given by the guru. Perhaps it is such a given that it is unnecessary to mention it. Another thing that is not mentioned specifically in the text, but is of vital importance to the guru/disciple relationship, is faith in the guru. Without full faith in the guru, even initiation cannot take place. So, where is the mention of faith? Perhaps it is in all the many verses proclaiming the divinity and care of the guru. Perhaps it is not mentioned because it is the unspoken essence of nearly every verse. Indeed, if there is a `path of the Guru', then faith in the guru certainly must be an integral part of that path, faith in her divinity, faith in her protection, faith in her ability to lead us from darkness to the light of union. As you have suggested, devotion to the guru is found throughout the Guru Gita, in one form or another. Indeed, it is difficult to separate devotion from service, worship, and faith. But it is nevertheless true that devotees differ in their ability to feel devotion, as well as in their ability to abide in it at all times. In other words, some of the verses, or groups of verses, the `bowing' verses for instance, may be specifically intended to engender devotion during the recitation experience, and to help those who are not quick to sink into devotion, to find it. The `bowing' verses do not seem specifically devotional in and of themselves, but the act of bowing, an activity of respect and surrender, does, I think. Alright, so we have a bunch of different people, all practicing different disciplines, under different gurudevas. All of these people, as we see later in the text, are already possessed of some devotion and mental clarity from their practices. Not just anyone is to receive this teaching. So these people, in the guise of Parvati, are given instruction in `the path of the Guru', `devotion', and `meditation'. Some of them may see the gurudeva as a loving teacher, some may be filled with pride at their wisdom and discipline, some may even be half-heartedly following the guru's instructions, hanging around on the periphery of the guru's influence, some may simply need help integrating faith, devotion, and service into a single powerful bhaava, that will propel them forward on their path, constantly holding onto the guru's feet with both hands. So, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the `path of the guru' refers to faith in the guru, and serving the guru, which includes the concept of worshipping the guru's feet. This is not to say that devotion and meditation are excluded, but that they are given separate emphasis in the text. What do you think??? Jai Maa! Chris , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > Kalia and Chrisji and all, > > my thoughts: > > I don't understand why the path and devotion are mentioned separately > in this verse: I think devotion IS the path of the Guru. After Shiva > has explained that the Guru is the Supreme Divinity and the soul of > intelligence, 'the one who gives rise to the light by which > illumination is known', he immediately goes on to explain how we are > to purify our soul: by selfless loving service and devotion to the > Guru (vs 11 and further). The purification of the soul and the Guru > giving rise to the light within appear to be the same process: > 'knowledge is attained through devotion to the Guru'. The path is > mentioned explicitly in verse 99, where it is said that 'by means of > the path of intuitive vision of the Guru, the mind should be made > pure'. To cultivate our love for the Guru leads to knowing the Guru > and knowing the Guru is knowing All. > Practical advice as to how to cultivate this love is given right in > the beginning of the text and is repeated often: remember the Guru, > meditate on the Guru, recite the mantra of the Guru, remember the > image of the Guru, observe the instruction of the Guru, maintain the > attitude of the Guru. To do all this is not easy, so the recitation of > the Guru Gita itself helps strengthen our devotion. And the remainder > of the text appears to explain how to recite with the most benefit. > > with love, > Henny > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2005 Report Share Posted May 29, 2005 Dear Kalia, in a sense every living being is on the path, that's true. We are all driven by devotion to something or someone. What do we want? It is my idea that in order to find yourself on a path like the one we're discussing the seed of devotion to the Guru must have been planted. By whom? Who is to say? But it is up to us to cultivate the seed, by constantly keeping our attention on what we really want, by means of sadhana (you are quite right, I think, that one must be constant in the application of practice). And then, if we are really dedicated, the devotion we have for our ego's withers (and for some it may take longer than for others) and the tree of devotion to the Guru takes deep roots and blossoms, with love, Henny , Kali Kali <kaliananda_saraswati@y. ...> wrote: > Dear Henny and Chris, > > Following the path does not necessarily mean that one has devotion. Remember verse 104 of the Guru Gita - > > "One who speaks to the Guru with egotism, to attain victory in an argument, may be Brahmaraksasah .........." I do not think that such a one is really devoted to the Guru though following a path, rather, that one is devoted to his or her ego. > > The path can be said to be the method, devotion the fruit derived from that method. Through constant sadhana be it seva to the Guru, satsangha, puja, etc. the mind is made still. Devotion is derived from performing these actions and growing more and more in love. The action MUST be constant. > > Remember verse 4 of the Atha Kilakam - there is no mantra, no medicine, nor anything else known by which indifference to all can be attained without repeated application. > > Please share your thoughts on this? > > Kalia. > > > henny_v_i <HvI@S...> wrote: > Kalia and Chrisji and all, > > my thoughts: > > I don't understand why the path and devotion are mentioned separately > in this verse: I think devotion IS the path of the Guru. After Shiva > has explained that the Guru is the Supreme Divinity and the soul of > intelligence, 'the one who gives rise to the light by which > illumination is known', he immediately goes on to explain how we are > to purify our soul: by selfless loving service and devotion to the > Guru (vs 11 and further). The purification of the soul and the Guru > giving rise to the light within appear to be the same process: > 'knowledge is attained through devotion to the Guru'. The path is > mentioned explicitly in verse 99, where it is said that 'by means of > the path of intuitive vision of the Guru, the mind should be made > pure'. To cultivate our love for the Guru leads to knowing the Guru > and knowing the Guru is knowing All. > Practical advice as to how to cultivate this love is given right in > the beginning of the text and is repeated often: remember the Guru, > meditate on the Guru, recite the mantra of the Guru, remember the > image of the Guru, observe the instruction of the Guru, maintain the > attitude of the Guru. To do all this is not easy, so the recitation of > the Guru Gita itself helps strengthen our devotion. And the remainder > of the text appears to explain how to recite with the most benefit. > > with love, > Henny > > > > , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956> > wrote: > > Kalia, > > > > Do you think this verse represents a statement of the organization > of > > the text up to this point? If so, we have recently looked at the > > explanation of meditation, so we're left with devotion and the path > of > > the Guru. Are there discrete sections devoted to these areas, or are > > they scattered throughout? > > > > Shiva is saying this "path of the Guru" has been explained. It is, > > apparently, a major theme? I can only recall a couple of verses that > > mention it specifically. What do you think is meant/referred to as > > "the path of the Guru"? > > > > Anyone have any ideas on this? > > > > Jai Maa! > > Chris > > > > > > > > , Kali Kali > > <kaliananda_saraswati> wrote: > > > Today dear friends we have reached vere 128. > > > > > > "Oh Goddess, also instructions about the path of the Guru to > > liberation, devotion to the Guru, as well as meditation, all have > been > > explained." > > > > > > Since this verse does not need any clarification, maybe there is a > > something that one of us would like to discuss relating to the topic > > or to previous verses. > > > I would like to offer sincere thanks for your support in > responding > > to the verses and bringing out some very insightful discussions and > > questions. May we all grow in love and peace. > > > > > > Jai Gurujis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > / > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2005 Report Share Posted May 29, 2005 Chrisji, what I think is that you have a remarkable gift for careful reading:). And also that texts like these require careful reading as a demonstration of our respect for the teachings. So, to continue our exploration with the greatest respect: In the viniyoga, where 'perfection in the blessings of the Guru' is mentioned, the word 'prasad' is used for blessings. So I thought it might be a good idea to look for the word elsewhere in the text. I have found verse 15: 'drink the water from the Guru's feet, eat of his prasad, the remnants of his food' and in verse 19: 'Supreme Divinity resides in the mouth of the Guru, which is obtained as prasad'. The use of the word 'prasad' points in the direction of the idea of offering, transformation, receiving and sharing. And, as you say, 'what worship is greater than to lovingly offer one's daily practice at the guru's feet'? If we do that, if we empty the bowl with what we have prepared ourselves (or so we think) and offer this to the guru he/she will share with us the 'remnants of his food'. Our offering will be taken and transformed into something more beautiful, something stronger, brighter. We do and get. The text urges us to give in order to be able to receive. And what is it we receive? In verse 22, it says: 'the knowledge which resides in the Guru's mouth is obtained through devotion to the Guru'. We share in the Guru's knowledge. And what is the Guru's knowledge? Oneness, union with all that is, love. We share in the Guru's love. And how? Through love: through devotion to the Guru, in its 'natural expression' of selfless service to one's Guru (verse 53) and by dwelling in meditation upon the Guru 'as a loving woman dreams of her family' (verse 19). Devotion, then, appears to be the 'attitude' leading to 'perfection in the blessings of the Guru'. The only way to know love is by love. When Parvati asks for 'the path by means of which a seeker becomes one with Supreme Divinity' and for the Guru's grace (defined as do and get), I am still led to think that this path is the path of devotion, which leads to sharing the Guru's knowledge. But then, I think you may have a point that the text addresses different people practicing different disciplines, under different gurudevas. Then this would be a kind of 'metatext', describing and, if we recite it, establishing in us the 'path of the Guru'; removing obstacles of spiritual pride and competition, and activating in us the attitude that allows the Guru-principle to work no matter which discipline you practice. The texts brings the understanding that the Guru works through many different gurudevas. In this sense, I can see it is a path and not a path. You then mention the 'necessary presence of the physical gurudeva and the fact that she would most certainly assign specific practices to all her students'. If this text is a 'meta-text', I think you are right when you suggest that it is not necessary to mention doing the practices given by the personal guru. The text does mention 'remembering the image of the Guru, always making recitation ot the name of the Guru, always observing the instruction of the Guru' (verse 18). The text very cleverly evokes the image of the Guru manifesting and acting through one's personal guru (I don't know how to explain what I mean, but it is as if you 'see' two things in one). It seems to say, in a way, that no matter what you are taught to do, is is always the instruction of the Guru. You point out that there is no explicit mention of faith in the text. In verse 5, the truth about the Guru is stated and then, in the remainder of the text, we are constantly asked to test this truth by doing and find out what we are getting. And if we do that, our faith automatically will develop and grow strong. At least, that is how it seems to me. As far as separating devotion from service, worship and faith is concerned: to me, devotion means 'total application', 'total commitment to one's ideal', and also 'to love, honour and respect' (but I may have a language problem here). It is not so much a feeling as an attitude, a way of doing things. Feelings come and go, but what I understand devotion to mean is more stable than that. You can do service or worship with or without pleasure, but you would do it anyway because of your devotion. You may not always feel like cooking for your spouse, but you do it anyway because you love her. And when you find she has made you do it anyway, you love her even more. I really find it difficult to separate these things (but perhaps I have a language problem here). So this is what I think now, thanks for keeping me studying.. I like the idea of actually bowing when reciting the text, by the way. Never thought of it, and I'm sure it helps when reciting with pain in the legs... with love, Henny , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956@y. ...> wrote: > Henny, > > My tendency has been the same, to think that the path of the guru is > devotion to the guru, but I am not sure that is all that is meant. > Your point is well taken, I think, why mention devotion and the path > of the guru and meditation separately if they are the same? I'm not > sure I have the answers, but there are some clues in the beginning of > the text that provide some hints, I think. > > First, in the viniyoga it says that the purpose of this recitation is, > "...to attain perfection in the blessings of the Guru..." Now, > viniyogas are usually, in my experience, short and concise, but since > this is the definitive statement of the purpose of the scripture, it > is important to recognize that it is specific in its purpose, and no > mention of any particular path or practice is mentioned. > > > Parvati asks in verse 3, "...teach the path by means of which a seeker > becomes one with Supreme Divinity." Now, this seems straightforward, > we're going to see a path explained, and that path will lead to unity > with Supreme Divinity, but after stating what is likely the central > message of the scripture, that the guru is the Supreme Divinity, Shiva > lists a whole bunch of disciplines and paths (vs. 6-8) and says these > people, "...in the absence of understanding the principle of Guru, > perform like fools." > > Coming so soon in the beginning of the text, it seems likely Shiva is > speaking to His audience here, and he is speaking to people involved > in all manner of spiritual disciplines, all the various paths. Given > the emphasis on wisdom in the text, I think it is likely the author is > directing his writing, mostly, to a certain kind of devotee, the > advanced devotee, proud of his spiritual accomplishments. Such a > devotee performs like a fool, without understanding the principle of > guru, why? Perhaps because as long as he is puffed-up with pride, and > without an experience of the guru's true nature all his efforts > produce little fruit of value. > > Usually, when you look at a scripture that details a path, it is > applicable to a certain kind of discipline, Samaya Tantra, for > instance, or Hatha Yoga, but this `path' is, I think, applied to all > the paths and disciplines equally. So, if true, it is both a path, and > not a path. > > It is true that there are a few systematic meditation practices given > here, but they are few in relation to the rest of the text, and really > serve the stated purpose of "perfection in the blessings of the Guru." > > It is also true that the text does, it seems to me, describe a > complete path, ie. one that can take a practitioner from the beginning > all the way to union, but even so, one must take into account the > necessary presence of the physical gurudeva and the fact that she > would most certainly assign specific practices to all her students. > > One assumes that these people practicing all these disciplines are > doing so under the instruction of their own gurudeva. Could this fact, > then, be part of the `path of the Guru'? Could it be part of the > meaning of `the feet of the Guru' that is mentioned so often? > > As Kalia mentioned some time ago, service to the guru is also a > central theme. I would ask, what service to the guru is greater than > to perform one's practices, as given, with discipline, reverence, and > illumination of consciousness? What worship is greater than to > lovingly offer one's daily practice at the guru's feet? Strangely, > perhaps, the text never mentions specifically doing the practices > given by the guru. Perhaps it is such a given that it is unnecessary > to mention it. > > Another thing that is not mentioned specifically in the text, but is > of vital importance to the guru/disciple relationship, is faith in the > guru. Without full faith in the guru, even initiation cannot take > place. So, where is the mention of faith? Perhaps it is in all the > many verses proclaiming the divinity and care of the guru. Perhaps it > is not mentioned because it is the unspoken essence of nearly every > verse. Indeed, if there is a `path of the Guru', then faith in the > guru certainly must be an integral part of that path, faith in her > divinity, faith in her protection, faith in her ability to lead us > from darkness to the light of union. > > As you have suggested, devotion to the guru is found throughout the > Guru Gita, in one form or another. Indeed, it is difficult to separate > devotion from service, worship, and faith. But it is nevertheless true > that devotees differ in their ability to feel devotion, as well as in > their ability to abide in it at all times. In other words, some of the > verses, or groups of verses, the `bowing' verses for instance, may be > specifically intended to engender devotion during the recitation > experience, and to help those who are not quick to sink into devotion, > to find it. The `bowing' verses do not seem specifically devotional in > and of themselves, but the act of bowing, an activity of respect and > surrender, does, I think. > > Alright, so we have a bunch of different people, all practicing > different disciplines, under different gurudevas. All of these people, > as we see later in the text, are already possessed of some devotion > and mental clarity from their practices. Not just anyone is to receive > this teaching. So these people, in the guise of Parvati, are given > instruction in `the path of the Guru', `devotion', and `meditation'. > > Some of them may see the gurudeva as a loving teacher, some may be > filled with pride at their wisdom and discipline, some may even be > half-heartedly following the guru's instructions, hanging around on > the periphery of the guru's influence, some may simply need help > integrating faith, devotion, and service into a single powerful > bhaava, that will propel them forward on their path, constantly > holding onto the guru's feet with both hands. > > So, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the `path of the > guru' refers to faith in the guru, and serving the guru, which > includes the concept of worshipping the guru's feet. This is not to > say that devotion and meditation are excluded, but that they are given > separate emphasis in the text. > > What do you think??? > > Jai Maa! > Chris > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > > Kalia and Chrisji and all, > > > > my thoughts: > > > > I don't understand why the path and devotion are mentioned separately > > in this verse: I think devotion IS the path of the Guru. After Shiva > > has explained that the Guru is the Supreme Divinity and the soul of > > intelligence, 'the one who gives rise to the light by which > > illumination is known', he immediately goes on to explain how we are > > to purify our soul: by selfless loving service and devotion to the > > Guru (vs 11 and further). The purification of the soul and the Guru > > giving rise to the light within appear to be the same process: > > 'knowledge is attained through devotion to the Guru'. The path is > > mentioned explicitly in verse 99, where it is said that 'by means of > > the path of intuitive vision of the Guru, the mind should be made > > pure'. To cultivate our love for the Guru leads to knowing the Guru > > and knowing the Guru is knowing All. > > Practical advice as to how to cultivate this love is given right in > > the beginning of the text and is repeated often: remember the Guru, > > meditate on the Guru, recite the mantra of the Guru, remember the > > image of the Guru, observe the instruction of the Guru, maintain the > > attitude of the Guru. To do all this is not easy, so the recitation of > > the Guru Gita itself helps strengthen our devotion. And the remainder > > of the text appears to explain how to recite with the most benefit. > > > > with love, > > Henny > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2005 Report Share Posted May 29, 2005 Dear Kalia,in a sense every living being is on the path, that's true. We are all driven by devotion to something or someone. What do we want? It is my idea that in order to find yourself on a path like the one we're discussing the seed of devotion to the Guru must have been planted. By whom? Dear Henny, Have you ever thought that there must be a better life than all the warring and fighting that we are seeing today, the selfish displays and acts of gross disrespect? I think it is our sincere longing for a "better world" that causes the seed to develop. Who is to say? But it is up to us to cultivate the seed, by constantly keeping our attention on what we really want, by means of sadhana (you are quite right, I think, that one must be constant in the application of practice). And then, if we are really dedicated, the devotion we have for our ego's withers (and for some it may take longer than for others) and the tree of devotion to the Guru takes deep roots and blossoms,with love,HennyJai Maa , Kali Kali <kaliananda_saraswati> wrote:> Dear Henny and Chris, > > Following the path does not necessarily mean that one has devotion. Remember verse 104 of the Guru Gita -> > "One who speaks to the Guru with egotism, to attain victory in an argument, may be Brahmaraksasah ..........." I do not think that such a one is really devoted to the Guru though following a path, rather, that one is devoted to his or her ego.> > The path can be said to be the method, devotion the fruit derived from that method. Through constant sadhana be it seva to the Guru, satsangha, puja, etc. the mind is made still. Devotion is derived from performing these actions and growing more and more in love. The action MUST be constant.> > Remember verse 4 of the Atha Kilakam - there is no mantra, no medicine, nor anything else known by which indifference to all can be attained without repeated application.> > Please share your thoughts on this?> > Kalia.> > > henny_v_i <HvI@S...> wrote:> Kalia and Chrisji and all,> > my thoughts:> > I don't understand why the path and devotion are mentioned separately > in this verse: I think devotion IS the path of the Guru. After Shiva > has explained that the Guru is the Supreme Divinity and the soul of > intelligence, 'the one who gives rise to the light by which > illumination is known', he immediately goes on to explain how we are > to purify our soul: by selfless loving service and devotion to the > Guru (vs 11 and further). The purification of the soul and the Guru > giving rise to the light within appear to be the same process: > 'knowledge is attained through devotion to the Guru'. The path is > mentioned explicitly in verse 99, where it is said that 'by means of > the path of intuitive vision of the Guru, the mind should be made > pure'. To cultivate our love for the Guru leads to knowing the Guru > and knowing the Guru is knowing All. > Practical advice as to how to cultivate this love is given right in > the beginning of the text and is repeated often: remember the Guru, > meditate on the Guru, recite the mantra of the Guru, remember the > image of the Guru, observe the instruction of the Guru, maintain the > attitude of the Guru. To do all this is not easy, so the recitation of > the Guru Gita itself helps strengthen our devotion. And the remainder > of the text appears to explain how to recite with the most benefit.> > with love,> Henny> > > > , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956> > wrote:> > Kalia,> > > > Do you think this verse represents a statement of the organization > of> > the text up to this point? If so, we have recently looked at the> > explanation of meditation, so we're left with devotion and the path > of> > the Guru. Are there discrete sections devoted to these areas, or are> > they scattered throughout?> > > > Shiva is saying this "path of the Guru" has been explained. It is,> > apparently, a major theme? I can only recall a couple of verses that> > mention it specifically. What do you think is meant/referred to as> > "the path of the Guru"?> > > > Anyone have any ideas on this?> > > > Jai Maa!> > Chris> > > > > > > > --- In , Kali Kali> > <kaliananda_saraswati> wrote:> > > Today dear friends we have reached vere 128. > > > > > > "Oh Goddess, also instructions about the path of the Guru to> > liberation, devotion to the Guru, as well as meditation, all have > been> > explained."> > > > > > Since this verse does not need any clarification, maybe there is a> > something that one of us would like to discuss relating to the topic> > or to previous verses. > > > I would like to offer sincere thanks for your support in > responding> > to the verses and bringing out some very insightful discussions and> > questions. May we all grow in love and peace.> > > > > > Jai Gurujis.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do You ?> > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links> > To visit your group on the web, go to:> /> > To from this group, send an email to:> > > Your use of Groups is subject to the > > > > > > Do You ?Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 29, 2005 Report Share Posted May 29, 2005 Kaliaji, YES! May our longing grow stronger and stronger. May the gardens of paradise blossom! with love, Henny , Kali Kali <kaliananda_saraswati@y. ...> wrote: > > henny_v_i <HvI@S...> wrote: > Dear Kalia, > > in a sense every living being is on the path, that's true. We are all > driven by devotion to something or someone. What do we want? It is my > idea that in order to find yourself on a path like the one we're > discussing the seed of devotion to the Guru must have been planted. By > whom? > > Dear Henny, > > Have you ever thought that there must be a better life than all the warring and fighting that we are seeing today, the selfish displays and acts of gross disrespect? I think it is our sincere longing for a "better world" that causes the seed to develop. > > > > Who is to say? But it is up to us to cultivate the seed, by > constantly keeping our attention on what we really want, by means of > sadhana (you are quite right, I think, that one must be constant in > the application of practice). And then, if we are really dedicated, > the devotion we have for our ego's withers (and for some it may take > longer than for others) and the tree of devotion to the Guru takes > deep roots and blossoms, > > with love, > Henny > > Jai Maa > > > , Kali Kali <kaliananda_saraswati@y. > ..> wrote: > > Dear Henny and Chris, > > > > Following the path does not necessarily mean that one has devotion. > Remember verse 104 of the Guru Gita - > > > > "One who speaks to the Guru with egotism, to attain victory in an > argument, may be Brahmaraksasah .........." I do not think that such a > one is really devoted to the Guru though following a path, rather, > that one is devoted to his or her ego. > > > > The path can be said to be the method, devotion the fruit derived > from that method. Through constant sadhana be it seva to the Guru, > satsangha, puja, etc. the mind is made still. Devotion is derived > from performing these actions and growing more and more in love. The > action MUST be constant. > > > > Remember verse 4 of the Atha Kilakam - there is no mantra, no > medicine, nor anything else known by which indifference to all can be > attained without repeated application. > > > > Please share your thoughts on this? > > > > Kalia. > > > > > > henny_v_i <HvI@S...> wrote: > > Kalia and Chrisji and all, > > > > my thoughts: > > > > I don't understand why the path and devotion are mentioned > separately > > in this verse: I think devotion IS the path of the Guru. After Shiva > > has explained that the Guru is the Supreme Divinity and the soul of > > intelligence, 'the one who gives rise to the light by which > > illumination is known', he immediately goes on to explain how we are > > to purify our soul: by selfless loving service and devotion to the > > Guru (vs 11 and further). The purification of the soul and the Guru > > giving rise to the light within appear to be the same process: > > 'knowledge is attained through devotion to the Guru'. The path is > > mentioned explicitly in verse 99, where it is said that 'by means of > > the path of intuitive vision of the Guru, the mind should be made > > pure'. To cultivate our love for the Guru leads to knowing the Guru > > and knowing the Guru is knowing All. > > Practical advice as to how to cultivate this love is given right in > > the beginning of the text and is repeated often: remember the Guru, > > meditate on the Guru, recite the mantra of the Guru, remember the > > image of the Guru, observe the instruction of the Guru, maintain the > > attitude of the Guru. To do all this is not easy, so the recitation > of > > the Guru Gita itself helps strengthen our devotion. And the > remainder > > of the text appears to explain how to recite with the most benefit. > > > > with love, > > Henny > > > > > > > > , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956> > > wrote: > > > Kalia, > > > > > > Do you think this verse represents a statement of the organization > > of > > > the text up to this point? If so, we have recently looked at the > > > explanation of meditation, so we're left with devotion and the > path > > of > > > the Guru. Are there discrete sections devoted to these areas, or > are > > > they scattered throughout? > > > > > > Shiva is saying this "path of the Guru" has been explained. It is, > > > apparently, a major theme? I can only recall a couple of verses > that > > > mention it specifically. What do you think is meant/referred to as > > > "the path of the Guru"? > > > > > > Anyone have any ideas on this? > > > > > > Jai Maa! > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > , Kali Kali > > > <kaliananda_saraswati> wrote: > > > > Today dear friends we have reached vere 128. > > > > > > > > "Oh Goddess, also instructions about the path of the Guru to > > > liberation, devotion to the Guru, as well as meditation, all have > > been > > > explained." > > > > > > > > Since this verse does not need any clarification, maybe there is > a > > > something that one of us would like to discuss relating to the > topic > > > or to previous verses. > > > > I would like to offer sincere thanks for your support in > > responding > > > to the verses and bringing out some very insightful discussions > and > > > questions. May we all grow in love and peace. > > > > > > > > Jai Gurujis. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tired of spam? Mail has the best spam protection around > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > > > / > > > > > > > > > > Terms of > Service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Links > > > > / > > > > > Terms of Service. > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2005 Report Share Posted May 30, 2005 Henny, I think I understand what you mean - devotion as discipline, as in `devoted to his cause'. I can see the truth in that understanding. In truth, I think all of these things can be seen as one thing. Devotion, sacrifice, service, even meditation and wisdom, all grow out of one another in practice. Swamjij even says as much, saying that the major paths of jnana, bhakti, and karma yoga are one in each devotee. The separation happens, I think because of the differences in devotees. Some lead with their heart, some with their mind, and some with hands and heart. In the process of becoming divine the other aspects grow and come into balance. Some time ago, Swamiji asked the group which was higher, jnana or bhakti. I found I couldn't answer because I don't really see them as two different things, even though I recognize I experience one or the other of them more intensely at different times. So, when you say you cannot separate devotion from the path of the guru, I cannot argue with you. Devotion is. This still doesn't answer the question of why devotion, the path of the guru, and meditation were mentioned separately as being explained. Perhaps these are simply to be understood as the `important' parts. like saying, "Hey, look. This is what I want you to remember." The path of the guru, taken in this sense, would not be a separate entity within the text, alongside devotion and meditation, but would be the whole text, including meditation and devotion. , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > Chrisji, > > what I think is that you have a remarkable gift for careful reading:). > And also that texts like these require careful reading as a > demonstration of our respect for the teachings. > > So, to continue our exploration with the greatest respect: > > In the viniyoga, where 'perfection in the blessings of the Guru' is > mentioned, the word 'prasad' is used for blessings. So I thought it > might be a good idea to look for the word elsewhere in the text. > I have found verse 15: 'drink the water from the Guru's feet, eat of > his prasad, the remnants of his food' and in verse 19: 'Supreme > Divinity resides in the mouth of the Guru, which is obtained as > prasad'. > The use of the word 'prasad' points in the direction of the idea of > offering, transformation, receiving and sharing. And, as you say, > 'what worship is greater than to lovingly offer one's daily practice > at the guru's feet'? If we do that, if we empty the bowl with what we > have prepared ourselves (or so we think) and offer this to the guru > he/she will share with us the 'remnants of his food'. Our offering > will be taken and transformed into something more beautiful, something > stronger, brighter. We do and get. The text urges us to give in order > to be able to receive. And what is it we receive? In verse 22, it > says: 'the knowledge which resides in the Guru's mouth is obtained > through devotion to the Guru'. We share in the Guru's knowledge. And > what is the Guru's knowledge? Oneness, union with all that is, love. > We share in the Guru's love. And how? Through love: through devotion > to the Guru, in its 'natural expression' of selfless service to one's > Guru (verse 53) and by dwelling in meditation upon the Guru 'as a > loving woman dreams of her family' (verse 19). Devotion, then, appears > to be the 'attitude' leading to 'perfection in the blessings of the > Guru'. The only way to know love is by love. When Parvati asks for > 'the path by means of which a seeker becomes one with Supreme > Divinity' and for the Guru's grace (defined as do and get), I am still > led to think that this path is the path of devotion, which leads to > sharing the Guru's knowledge. > > But then, I think you may have a point that the text addresses > different people practicing different disciplines, under different > gurudevas. Then this would be a kind of 'metatext', describing and, if > we recite it, establishing in us the 'path of the Guru'; removing > obstacles of spiritual pride and competition, and activating in us the > attitude that allows the Guru-principle to work no matter which > discipline you practice. The texts brings the understanding that the > Guru works through many different gurudevas. In this sense, I can see > it is a path and not a path. > > You then mention the 'necessary presence of the physical gurudeva and > the fact that she would most certainly assign specific practices to > all her students'. If this text is a 'meta-text', I think you are > right when you suggest that it is not necessary to mention doing the > practices given by the personal guru. The text does mention > 'remembering the image of the Guru, always making recitation ot the > name of the Guru, always observing the instruction of the Guru' (verse > 18). The text very cleverly evokes the image of the Guru manifesting > and acting through one's personal guru (I don't know how to explain > what I mean, but it is as if you 'see' two things in one). It seems to > say, in a way, that no matter what you are taught to do, is is always > the instruction of the Guru. > > You point out that there is no explicit mention of faith in the text. > In verse 5, the truth about the Guru is stated and then, in the > remainder of the text, we are constantly asked to test this truth by > doing and find out what we are getting. And if we do that, our faith > automatically will develop and grow strong. At least, that is how it > seems to me. > > As far as separating devotion from service, worship and faith is > concerned: to me, devotion means 'total application', 'total > commitment to one's ideal', and also 'to love, honour and respect' > (but I may have a language problem here). It is not so much a feeling > as an attitude, a way of doing things. Feelings come and go, but what > I understand devotion to mean is more stable than that. You can do > service or worship with or without pleasure, but you would do it > anyway because of your devotion. You may not always feel like cooking > for your spouse, but you do it anyway because you love her. And when > you find she has made you do it anyway, you love her even more. I > really find it difficult to separate these things (but perhaps I have > a language problem here). > > So this is what I think now, thanks for keeping me studying.. > > I like the idea of actually bowing when reciting the text, by the way. > Never thought of it, and I'm sure it helps when reciting with pain in > the legs... > > > > with love, > Henny > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2005 Report Share Posted May 30, 2005 Henny, I forgot to mention... I hadn't noticed the use of prasad in the viniyoga. That's really great. As you pointed out, prasad is used richly here and there in the text. One of the best, I think, is verse 110, "The Guru gives the prasad of grace (defined as what you do is what you get), by which the individual soul is perceived. By means of this path of the Guru, the wisdom of one's own soul arises." Yes. As you said, I think the image of prasad really expresses the essence of the relationship with the guru. All of our efforts are returned to us transformed in ways we cannot even imagine by the gurus love. Jai Maa! Chris , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > Chrisji, > > what I think is that you have a remarkable gift for careful reading:). > And also that texts like these require careful reading as a > demonstration of our respect for the teachings. > > So, to continue our exploration with the greatest respect: > > In the viniyoga, where 'perfection in the blessings of the Guru' is > mentioned, the word 'prasad' is used for blessings. So I thought it > might be a good idea to look for the word elsewhere in the text. > I have found verse 15: 'drink the water from the Guru's feet, eat of > his prasad, the remnants of his food' and in verse 19: 'Supreme > Divinity resides in the mouth of the Guru, which is obtained as > prasad'. > The use of the word 'prasad' points in the direction of the idea of > offering, transformation, receiving and sharing. And, as you say, > 'what worship is greater than to lovingly offer one's daily practice > at the guru's feet'? If we do that, if we empty the bowl with what we > have prepared ourselves (or so we think) and offer this to the guru > he/she will share with us the 'remnants of his food'. Our offering > will be taken and transformed into something more beautiful, something > stronger, brighter. We do and get. The text urges us to give in order > to be able to receive. And what is it we receive? In verse 22, it > says: 'the knowledge which resides in the Guru's mouth is obtained > through devotion to the Guru'. We share in the Guru's knowledge. And > what is the Guru's knowledge? Oneness, union with all that is, love. > We share in the Guru's love. And how? Through love: through devotion > to the Guru, in its 'natural expression' of selfless service to one's > Guru (verse 53) and by dwelling in meditation upon the Guru 'as a > loving woman dreams of her family' (verse 19). Devotion, then, appears > to be the 'attitude' leading to 'perfection in the blessings of the > Guru'. The only way to know love is by love. When Parvati asks for > 'the path by means of which a seeker becomes one with Supreme > Divinity' and for the Guru's grace (defined as do and get), I am still > led to think that this path is the path of devotion, which leads to > sharing the Guru's knowledge. > > But then, I think you may have a point that the text addresses > different people practicing different disciplines, under different > gurudevas. Then this would be a kind of 'metatext', describing and, if > we recite it, establishing in us the 'path of the Guru'; removing > obstacles of spiritual pride and competition, and activating in us the > attitude that allows the Guru-principle to work no matter which > discipline you practice. The texts brings the understanding that the > Guru works through many different gurudevas. In this sense, I can see > it is a path and not a path. > > You then mention the 'necessary presence of the physical gurudeva and > the fact that she would most certainly assign specific practices to > all her students'. If this text is a 'meta-text', I think you are > right when you suggest that it is not necessary to mention doing the > practices given by the personal guru. The text does mention > 'remembering the image of the Guru, always making recitation ot the > name of the Guru, always observing the instruction of the Guru' (verse > 18). The text very cleverly evokes the image of the Guru manifesting > and acting through one's personal guru (I don't know how to explain > what I mean, but it is as if you 'see' two things in one). It seems to > say, in a way, that no matter what you are taught to do, is is always > the instruction of the Guru. > > You point out that there is no explicit mention of faith in the text. > In verse 5, the truth about the Guru is stated and then, in the > remainder of the text, we are constantly asked to test this truth by > doing and find out what we are getting. And if we do that, our faith > automatically will develop and grow strong. At least, that is how it > seems to me. > > As far as separating devotion from service, worship and faith is > concerned: to me, devotion means 'total application', 'total > commitment to one's ideal', and also 'to love, honour and respect' > (but I may have a language problem here). It is not so much a feeling > as an attitude, a way of doing things. Feelings come and go, but what > I understand devotion to mean is more stable than that. You can do > service or worship with or without pleasure, but you would do it > anyway because of your devotion. You may not always feel like cooking > for your spouse, but you do it anyway because you love her. And when > you find she has made you do it anyway, you love her even more. I > really find it difficult to separate these things (but perhaps I have > a language problem here). > > So this is what I think now, thanks for keeping me studying.. > > I like the idea of actually bowing when reciting the text, by the way. > Never thought of it, and I'm sure it helps when reciting with pain in > the legs... > > > > with love, > Henny > > , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956@y. > ..> wrote: > > Henny, > > > > My tendency has been the same, to think that the path of the guru is > > devotion to the guru, but I am not sure that is all that is meant. > > Your point is well taken, I think, why mention devotion and the path > > of the guru and meditation separately if they are the same? I'm not > > sure I have the answers, but there are some clues in the beginning > of > > the text that provide some hints, I think. > > > > First, in the viniyoga it says that the purpose of this recitation > is, > > "...to attain perfection in the blessings of the Guru..." Now, > > viniyogas are usually, in my experience, short and concise, but > since > > this is the definitive statement of the purpose of the scripture, it > > is important to recognize that it is specific in its purpose, and no > > mention of any particular path or practice is mentioned. > > > > > > Parvati asks in verse 3, "...teach the path by means of which a > seeker > > becomes one with Supreme Divinity." Now, this seems straightforward, > > we're going to see a path explained, and that path will lead to > unity > > with Supreme Divinity, but after stating what is likely the central > > message of the scripture, that the guru is the Supreme Divinity, > Shiva > > lists a whole bunch of disciplines and paths (vs. 6-8) and says > these > > people, "...in the absence of understanding the principle of Guru, > > perform like fools." > > > > Coming so soon in the beginning of the text, it seems likely Shiva > is > > speaking to His audience here, and he is speaking to people involved > > in all manner of spiritual disciplines, all the various paths. Given > > the emphasis on wisdom in the text, I think it is likely the author > is > > directing his writing, mostly, to a certain kind of devotee, the > > advanced devotee, proud of his spiritual accomplishments. Such a > > devotee performs like a fool, without understanding the principle of > > guru, why? Perhaps because as long as he is puffed-up with pride, > and > > without an experience of the guru's true nature all his efforts > > produce little fruit of value. > > > > Usually, when you look at a scripture that details a path, it is > > applicable to a certain kind of discipline, Samaya Tantra, for > > instance, or Hatha Yoga, but this `path' is, I think, applied to all > > the paths and disciplines equally. So, if true, it is both a path, > and > > not a path. > > > > It is true that there are a few systematic meditation practices > given > > here, but they are few in relation to the rest of the text, and > really > > serve the stated purpose of "perfection in the blessings of the > Guru." > > > > It is also true that the text does, it seems to me, describe a > > complete path, ie. one that can take a practitioner from the > beginning > > all the way to union, but even so, one must take into account the > > necessary presence of the physical gurudeva and the fact that she > > would most certainly assign specific practices to all her students. > > > > One assumes that these people practicing all these disciplines are > > doing so under the instruction of their own gurudeva. Could this > fact, > > then, be part of the `path of the Guru'? Could it be part of the > > meaning of `the feet of the Guru' that is mentioned so often? > > > > As Kalia mentioned some time ago, service to the guru is also a > > central theme. I would ask, what service to the guru is greater than > > to perform one's practices, as given, with discipline, reverence, > and > > illumination of consciousness? What worship is greater than to > > lovingly offer one's daily practice at the guru's feet? Strangely, > > perhaps, the text never mentions specifically doing the practices > > given by the guru. Perhaps it is such a given that it is unnecessary > > to mention it. > > > > Another thing that is not mentioned specifically in the text, but is > > of vital importance to the guru/disciple relationship, is faith in > the > > guru. Without full faith in the guru, even initiation cannot take > > place. So, where is the mention of faith? Perhaps it is in all the > > many verses proclaiming the divinity and care of the guru. Perhaps > it > > is not mentioned because it is the unspoken essence of nearly every > > verse. Indeed, if there is a `path of the Guru', then faith in the > > guru certainly must be an integral part of that path, faith in her > > divinity, faith in her protection, faith in her ability to lead us > > from darkness to the light of union. > > > > As you have suggested, devotion to the guru is found throughout the > > Guru Gita, in one form or another. Indeed, it is difficult to > separate > > devotion from service, worship, and faith. But it is nevertheless > true > > that devotees differ in their ability to feel devotion, as well as > in > > their ability to abide in it at all times. In other words, some of > the > > verses, or groups of verses, the `bowing' verses for instance, may > be > > specifically intended to engender devotion during the recitation > > experience, and to help those who are not quick to sink into > devotion, > > to find it. The `bowing' verses do not seem specifically devotional > in > > and of themselves, but the act of bowing, an activity of respect and > > surrender, does, I think. > > > > Alright, so we have a bunch of different people, all practicing > > different disciplines, under different gurudevas. All of these > people, > > as we see later in the text, are already possessed of some devotion > > and mental clarity from their practices. Not just anyone is to > receive > > this teaching. So these people, in the guise of Parvati, are given > > instruction in `the path of the Guru', `devotion', and `meditation'. > > > > Some of them may see the gurudeva as a loving teacher, some may be > > filled with pride at their wisdom and discipline, some may even be > > half-heartedly following the guru's instructions, hanging around on > > the periphery of the guru's influence, some may simply need help > > integrating faith, devotion, and service into a single powerful > > bhaava, that will propel them forward on their path, constantly > > holding onto the guru's feet with both hands. > > > > So, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the `path of the > > guru' refers to faith in the guru, and serving the guru, which > > includes the concept of worshipping the guru's feet. This is not to > > say that devotion and meditation are excluded, but that they are > given > > separate emphasis in the text. > > > > What do you think??? > > > > Jai Maa! > > Chris > > > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > > > Kalia and Chrisji and all, > > > > > > my thoughts: > > > > > > I don't understand why the path and devotion are mentioned > separately > > > in this verse: I think devotion IS the path of the Guru. After > Shiva > > > has explained that the Guru is the Supreme Divinity and the soul > of > > > intelligence, 'the one who gives rise to the light by which > > > illumination is known', he immediately goes on to explain how we > are > > > to purify our soul: by selfless loving service and devotion to the > > > Guru (vs 11 and further). The purification of the soul and the > Guru > > > giving rise to the light within appear to be the same process: > > > 'knowledge is attained through devotion to the Guru'. The path is > > > mentioned explicitly in verse 99, where it is said that 'by means > of > > > the path of intuitive vision of the Guru, the mind should be made > > > pure'. To cultivate our love for the Guru leads to knowing the > Guru > > > and knowing the Guru is knowing All. > > > Practical advice as to how to cultivate this love is given right > in > > > the beginning of the text and is repeated often: remember the > Guru, > > > meditate on the Guru, recite the mantra of the Guru, remember the > > > image of the Guru, observe the instruction of the Guru, maintain > the > > > attitude of the Guru. To do all this is not easy, so the > recitation of > > > the Guru Gita itself helps strengthen our devotion. And the > remainder > > > of the text appears to explain how to recite with the most > benefit. > > > > > > with love, > > > Henny > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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