Guest guest Posted May 30, 2005 Report Share Posted May 30, 2005 Chrisji, > This still doesn't answer the question of why devotion, the path of > the guru, and meditation were mentioned separately as being explained. > > Perhaps these are simply to be understood as the `important' parts. > like saying, "Hey, look. This is what I want you to remember." The > path of the guru, taken in this sense, would not be a separate entity > within the text, alongside devotion and meditation, but would be the > whole text, including meditation and devotion. Sounds plausible to me. And perhaps the text has already served it purpose by making us think about the question of devotion so hard... As far as the prasad is concerned: I can't believe I missed verse 110, which, indeed, says it all. The richness of the Guru Gita is amazing isn't it? JAI GURU, with love, Henny , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956> wrote: > Henny, > > I forgot to mention... > > I hadn't noticed the use of prasad in the viniyoga. That's really > great. As you pointed out, prasad is used richly here and there in the > text. One of the best, I think, is verse 110, > > "The Guru gives the prasad of grace (defined as what you do is what > you get), by which the individual soul is perceived. By means of this > path of the Guru, the wisdom of one's own soul arises." > > Yes. As you said, I think the image of prasad really expresses the > essence of the relationship with the guru. All of our efforts are > returned to us transformed in ways we cannot even imagine by the gurus > love. > > Jai Maa! > Chris > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > > Chrisji, > > > > what I think is that you have a remarkable gift for careful reading:). > > And also that texts like these require careful reading as a > > demonstration of our respect for the teachings. > > > > So, to continue our exploration with the greatest respect: > > > > In the viniyoga, where 'perfection in the blessings of the Guru' is > > mentioned, the word 'prasad' is used for blessings. So I thought it > > might be a good idea to look for the word elsewhere in the text. > > I have found verse 15: 'drink the water from the Guru's feet, eat of > > his prasad, the remnants of his food' and in verse 19: 'Supreme > > Divinity resides in the mouth of the Guru, which is obtained as > > prasad'. > > The use of the word 'prasad' points in the direction of the idea of > > offering, transformation, receiving and sharing. And, as you say, > > 'what worship is greater than to lovingly offer one's daily practice > > at the guru's feet'? If we do that, if we empty the bowl with what we > > have prepared ourselves (or so we think) and offer this to the guru > > he/she will share with us the 'remnants of his food'. Our offering > > will be taken and transformed into something more beautiful, something > > stronger, brighter. We do and get. The text urges us to give in order > > to be able to receive. And what is it we receive? In verse 22, it > > says: 'the knowledge which resides in the Guru's mouth is obtained > > through devotion to the Guru'. We share in the Guru's knowledge. And > > what is the Guru's knowledge? Oneness, union with all that is, love. > > We share in the Guru's love. And how? Through love: through devotion > > to the Guru, in its 'natural expression' of selfless service to one's > > Guru (verse 53) and by dwelling in meditation upon the Guru 'as a > > loving woman dreams of her family' (verse 19). Devotion, then, appears > > to be the 'attitude' leading to 'perfection in the blessings of the > > Guru'. The only way to know love is by love. When Parvati asks for > > 'the path by means of which a seeker becomes one with Supreme > > Divinity' and for the Guru's grace (defined as do and get), I am still > > led to think that this path is the path of devotion, which leads to > > sharing the Guru's knowledge. > > > > But then, I think you may have a point that the text addresses > > different people practicing different disciplines, under different > > gurudevas. Then this would be a kind of 'metatext', describing and, if > > we recite it, establishing in us the 'path of the Guru'; removing > > obstacles of spiritual pride and competition, and activating in us the > > attitude that allows the Guru-principle to work no matter which > > discipline you practice. The texts brings the understanding that the > > Guru works through many different gurudevas. In this sense, I can see > > it is a path and not a path. > > > > You then mention the 'necessary presence of the physical gurudeva and > > the fact that she would most certainly assign specific practices to > > all her students'. If this text is a 'meta-text', I think you are > > right when you suggest that it is not necessary to mention doing the > > practices given by the personal guru. The text does mention > > 'remembering the image of the Guru, always making recitation ot the > > name of the Guru, always observing the instruction of the Guru' (verse > > 18). The text very cleverly evokes the image of the Guru manifesting > > and acting through one's personal guru (I don't know how to explain > > what I mean, but it is as if you 'see' two things in one). It seems to > > say, in a way, that no matter what you are taught to do, is is always > > the instruction of the Guru. > > > > You point out that there is no explicit mention of faith in the text. > > In verse 5, the truth about the Guru is stated and then, in the > > remainder of the text, we are constantly asked to test this truth by > > doing and find out what we are getting. And if we do that, our faith > > automatically will develop and grow strong. At least, that is how it > > seems to me. > > > > As far as separating devotion from service, worship and faith is > > concerned: to me, devotion means 'total application', 'total > > commitment to one's ideal', and also 'to love, honour and respect' > > (but I may have a language problem here). It is not so much a feeling > > as an attitude, a way of doing things. Feelings come and go, but what > > I understand devotion to mean is more stable than that. You can do > > service or worship with or without pleasure, but you would do it > > anyway because of your devotion. You may not always feel like cooking > > for your spouse, but you do it anyway because you love her. And when > > you find she has made you do it anyway, you love her even more. I > > really find it difficult to separate these things (but perhaps I have > > a language problem here). > > > > So this is what I think now, thanks for keeping me studying.. > > > > I like the idea of actually bowing when reciting the text, by the way. > > Never thought of it, and I'm sure it helps when reciting with pain in > > the legs... > > > > > > > > with love, > > Henny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956@y. > > ..> wrote: > > > Henny, > > > > > > My tendency has been the same, to think that the path of the guru is > > > devotion to the guru, but I am not sure that is all that is meant. > > > Your point is well taken, I think, why mention devotion and the path > > > of the guru and meditation separately if they are the same? I'm not > > > sure I have the answers, but there are some clues in the beginning > > of > > > the text that provide some hints, I think. > > > > > > First, in the viniyoga it says that the purpose of this recitation > > is, > > > "...to attain perfection in the blessings of the Guru..." Now, > > > viniyogas are usually, in my experience, short and concise, but > > since > > > this is the definitive statement of the purpose of the scripture, it > > > is important to recognize that it is specific in its purpose, and no > > > mention of any particular path or practice is mentioned. > > > > > > > > > Parvati asks in verse 3, "...teach the path by means of which a > > seeker > > > becomes one with Supreme Divinity." Now, this seems straightforward, > > > we're going to see a path explained, and that path will lead to > > unity > > > with Supreme Divinity, but after stating what is likely the central > > > message of the scripture, that the guru is the Supreme Divinity, > > Shiva > > > lists a whole bunch of disciplines and paths (vs. 6-8) and says > > these > > > people, "...in the absence of understanding the principle of Guru, > > > perform like fools." > > > > > > Coming so soon in the beginning of the text, it seems likely Shiva > > is > > > speaking to His audience here, and he is speaking to people involved > > > in all manner of spiritual disciplines, all the various paths. Given > > > the emphasis on wisdom in the text, I think it is likely the author > > is > > > directing his writing, mostly, to a certain kind of devotee, the > > > advanced devotee, proud of his spiritual accomplishments. Such a > > > devotee performs like a fool, without understanding the principle of > > > guru, why? Perhaps because as long as he is puffed-up with pride, > > and > > > without an experience of the guru's true nature all his efforts > > > produce little fruit of value. > > > > > > Usually, when you look at a scripture that details a path, it is > > > applicable to a certain kind of discipline, Samaya Tantra, for > > > instance, or Hatha Yoga, but this `path' is, I think, applied to all > > > the paths and disciplines equally. So, if true, it is both a path, > > and > > > not a path. > > > > > > It is true that there are a few systematic meditation practices > > given > > > here, but they are few in relation to the rest of the text, and > > really > > > serve the stated purpose of "perfection in the blessings of the > > Guru." > > > > > > It is also true that the text does, it seems to me, describe a > > > complete path, ie. one that can take a practitioner from the > > beginning > > > all the way to union, but even so, one must take into account the > > > necessary presence of the physical gurudeva and the fact that she > > > would most certainly assign specific practices to all her students. > > > > > > One assumes that these people practicing all these disciplines are > > > doing so under the instruction of their own gurudeva. Could this > > fact, > > > then, be part of the `path of the Guru'? Could it be part of the > > > meaning of `the feet of the Guru' that is mentioned so often? > > > > > > As Kalia mentioned some time ago, service to the guru is also a > > > central theme. I would ask, what service to the guru is greater than > > > to perform one's practices, as given, with discipline, reverence, > > and > > > illumination of consciousness? What worship is greater than to > > > lovingly offer one's daily practice at the guru's feet? Strangely, > > > perhaps, the text never mentions specifically doing the practices > > > given by the guru. Perhaps it is such a given that it is unnecessary > > > to mention it. > > > > > > Another thing that is not mentioned specifically in the text, but is > > > of vital importance to the guru/disciple relationship, is faith in > > the > > > guru. Without full faith in the guru, even initiation cannot take > > > place. So, where is the mention of faith? Perhaps it is in all the > > > many verses proclaiming the divinity and care of the guru. Perhaps > > it > > > is not mentioned because it is the unspoken essence of nearly every > > > verse. Indeed, if there is a `path of the Guru', then faith in the > > > guru certainly must be an integral part of that path, faith in her > > > divinity, faith in her protection, faith in her ability to lead us > > > from darkness to the light of union. > > > > > > As you have suggested, devotion to the guru is found throughout the > > > Guru Gita, in one form or another. Indeed, it is difficult to > > separate > > > devotion from service, worship, and faith. But it is nevertheless > > true > > > that devotees differ in their ability to feel devotion, as well as > > in > > > their ability to abide in it at all times. In other words, some of > > the > > > verses, or groups of verses, the `bowing' verses for instance, may > > be > > > specifically intended to engender devotion during the recitation > > > experience, and to help those who are not quick to sink into > > devotion, > > > to find it. The `bowing' verses do not seem specifically devotional > > in > > > and of themselves, but the act of bowing, an activity of respect and > > > surrender, does, I think. > > > > > > Alright, so we have a bunch of different people, all practicing > > > different disciplines, under different gurudevas. All of these > > people, > > > as we see later in the text, are already possessed of some devotion > > > and mental clarity from their practices. Not just anyone is to > > receive > > > this teaching. So these people, in the guise of Parvati, are given > > > instruction in `the path of the Guru', `devotion', and `meditation'. > > > > > > Some of them may see the gurudeva as a loving teacher, some may be > > > filled with pride at their wisdom and discipline, some may even be > > > half-heartedly following the guru's instructions, hanging around on > > > the periphery of the guru's influence, some may simply need help > > > integrating faith, devotion, and service into a single powerful > > > bhaava, that will propel them forward on their path, constantly > > > holding onto the guru's feet with both hands. > > > > > > So, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the `path of the > > > guru' refers to faith in the guru, and serving the guru, which > > > includes the concept of worshipping the guru's feet. This is not to > > > say that devotion and meditation are excluded, but that they are > > given > > > separate emphasis in the text. > > > > > > What do you think??? > > > > > > Jai Maa! > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > > > > Kalia and Chrisji and all, > > > > > > > > my thoughts: > > > > > > > > I don't understand why the path and devotion are mentioned > > separately > > > > in this verse: I think devotion IS the path of the Guru. After > > Shiva > > > > has explained that the Guru is the Supreme Divinity and the soul > > of > > > > intelligence, 'the one who gives rise to the light by which > > > > illumination is known', he immediately goes on to explain how we > > are > > > > to purify our soul: by selfless loving service and devotion to the > > > > Guru (vs 11 and further). The purification of the soul and the > > Guru > > > > giving rise to the light within appear to be the same process: > > > > 'knowledge is attained through devotion to the Guru'. The path is > > > > mentioned explicitly in verse 99, where it is said that 'by means > > of > > > > the path of intuitive vision of the Guru, the mind should be made > > > > pure'. To cultivate our love for the Guru leads to knowing the > > Guru > > > > and knowing the Guru is knowing All. > > > > Practical advice as to how to cultivate this love is given right > > in > > > > the beginning of the text and is repeated often: remember the > > Guru, > > > > meditate on the Guru, recite the mantra of the Guru, remember the > > > > image of the Guru, observe the instruction of the Guru, maintain > > the > > > > attitude of the Guru. To do all this is not easy, so the > > recitation of > > > > the Guru Gita itself helps strengthen our devotion. And the > > remainder > > > > of the text appears to explain how to recite with the most > > benefit. > > > > > > > > with love, > > > > Henny > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 30, 2005 Report Share Posted May 30, 2005 Henny, Hate to throw a wrench in the works, but I stumbled upon this verse last night: Guru Gita verse 81 "By means of devotion to the Guru one obtains wisdom along with the application of wisdom. There is nothing beyond the guru. Meditate upon the Guru along with the path of the Guru." Jai Maa! Chris , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > Chrisji, > > > This still doesn't answer the question of why devotion, the path of > > the guru, and meditation were mentioned separately as being > explained. > > > > Perhaps these are simply to be understood as the `important' parts. > > like saying, "Hey, look. This is what I want you to remember." The > > path of the guru, taken in this sense, would not be a separate > entity > > within the text, alongside devotion and meditation, but would be the > > whole text, including meditation and devotion. > > Sounds plausible to me. And perhaps the text has already served it > purpose by making us think about the question of devotion so hard... > > As far as the prasad is concerned: I can't believe I missed verse > 110, which, indeed, says it all. The richness of the Guru Gita is > amazing isn't it? > > JAI GURU, > > with love, > Henny > > > > > , "Chris Kirner" > <chriskirner1956> wrote: > > Henny, > > > > I forgot to mention... > > > > I hadn't noticed the use of prasad in the viniyoga. That's really > > great. As you pointed out, prasad is used richly here and there in > the > > text. One of the best, I think, is verse 110, > > > > "The Guru gives the prasad of grace (defined as what you do is what > > you get), by which the individual soul is perceived. By means of > this > > path of the Guru, the wisdom of one's own soul arises." > > > > Yes. As you said, I think the image of prasad really expresses the > > essence of the relationship with the guru. All of our efforts are > > returned to us transformed in ways we cannot even imagine by the > gurus > > love. > > > > Jai Maa! > > Chris > > > > > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > > > Chrisji, > > > > > > what I think is that you have a remarkable gift for careful > reading:). > > > And also that texts like these require careful reading as a > > > demonstration of our respect for the teachings. > > > > > > So, to continue our exploration with the greatest respect: > > > > > > In the viniyoga, where 'perfection in the blessings of the Guru' > is > > > mentioned, the word 'prasad' is used for blessings. So I thought > it > > > might be a good idea to look for the word elsewhere in the text. > > > I have found verse 15: 'drink the water from the Guru's feet, eat > of > > > his prasad, the remnants of his food' and in verse 19: 'Supreme > > > Divinity resides in the mouth of the Guru, which is obtained as > > > prasad'. > > > The use of the word 'prasad' points in the direction of the idea > of > > > offering, transformation, receiving and sharing. And, as you say, > > > 'what worship is greater than to lovingly offer one's daily > practice > > > at the guru's feet'? If we do that, if we empty the bowl with > what we > > > have prepared ourselves (or so we think) and offer this to the > guru > > > he/she will share with us the 'remnants of his food'. Our > offering > > > will be taken and transformed into something more beautiful, > something > > > stronger, brighter. We do and get. The text urges us to give in > order > > > to be able to receive. And what is it we receive? In verse 22, it > > > says: 'the knowledge which resides in the Guru's mouth is > obtained > > > through devotion to the Guru'. We share in the Guru's knowledge. > And > > > what is the Guru's knowledge? Oneness, union with all that is, > love. > > > We share in the Guru's love. And how? Through love: through > devotion > > > to the Guru, in its 'natural expression' of selfless service to > one's > > > Guru (verse 53) and by dwelling in meditation upon the Guru 'as a > > > loving woman dreams of her family' (verse 19). Devotion, then, > appears > > > to be the 'attitude' leading to 'perfection in the blessings of > the > > > Guru'. The only way to know love is by love. When Parvati asks > for > > > 'the path by means of which a seeker becomes one with Supreme > > > Divinity' and for the Guru's grace (defined as do and get), I am > still > > > led to think that this path is the path of devotion, which leads > to > > > sharing the Guru's knowledge. > > > > > > But then, I think you may have a point that the text addresses > > > different people practicing different disciplines, under > different > > > gurudevas. Then this would be a kind of 'metatext', describing > and, if > > > we recite it, establishing in us the 'path of the Guru'; removing > > > obstacles of spiritual pride and competition, and activating in > us the > > > attitude that allows the Guru-principle to work no matter which > > > discipline you practice. The texts brings the understanding that > the > > > Guru works through many different gurudevas. In this sense, I can > see > > > it is a path and not a path. > > > > > > You then mention the 'necessary presence of the physical gurudeva > and > > > the fact that she would most certainly assign specific practices > to > > > all her students'. If this text is a 'meta-text', I think you are > > > right when you suggest that it is not necessary to mention doing > the > > > practices given by the personal guru. The text does mention > > > 'remembering the image of the Guru, always making recitation ot > the > > > name of the Guru, always observing the instruction of the Guru' > (verse > > > 18). The text very cleverly evokes the image of the Guru > manifesting > > > and acting through one's personal guru (I don't know how to > explain > > > what I mean, but it is as if you 'see' two things in one). It > seems to > > > say, in a way, that no matter what you are taught to do, is is > always > > > the instruction of the Guru. > > > > > > You point out that there is no explicit mention of faith in the > text. > > > In verse 5, the truth about the Guru is stated and then, in the > > > remainder of the text, we are constantly asked to test this truth > by > > > doing and find out what we are getting. And if we do that, our > faith > > > automatically will develop and grow strong. At least, that is how > it > > > seems to me. > > > > > > As far as separating devotion from service, worship and faith is > > > concerned: to me, devotion means 'total application', 'total > > > commitment to one's ideal', and also 'to love, honour and > respect' > > > (but I may have a language problem here). It is not so much a > feeling > > > as an attitude, a way of doing things. Feelings come and go, but > what > > > I understand devotion to mean is more stable than that. You can > do > > > service or worship with or without pleasure, but you would do it > > > anyway because of your devotion. You may not always feel like > cooking > > > for your spouse, but you do it anyway because you love her. And > when > > > you find she has made you do it anyway, you love her even more. I > > > really find it difficult to separate these things (but perhaps I > have > > > a language problem here). > > > > > > So this is what I think now, thanks for keeping me studying.. > > > > > > I like the idea of actually bowing when reciting the text, by the > way. > > > Never thought of it, and I'm sure it helps when reciting with > pain in > > > the legs... > > > > > > > > > > > > with love, > > > Henny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Chris Kirner" > <chriskirner1956@y. > > > ..> wrote: > > > > Henny, > > > > > > > > My tendency has been the same, to think that the path of the > guru is > > > > devotion to the guru, but I am not sure that is all that is > meant. > > > > Your point is well taken, I think, why mention devotion and the > path > > > > of the guru and meditation separately if they are the same? I'm > not > > > > sure I have the answers, but there are some clues in the > beginning > > > of > > > > the text that provide some hints, I think. > > > > > > > > First, in the viniyoga it says that the purpose of this > recitation > > > is, > > > > "...to attain perfection in the blessings of the Guru..." Now, > > > > viniyogas are usually, in my experience, short and concise, but > > > since > > > > this is the definitive statement of the purpose of the > scripture, it > > > > is important to recognize that it is specific in its purpose, > and no > > > > mention of any particular path or practice is mentioned. > > > > > > > > > > > > Parvati asks in verse 3, "...teach the path by means of which a > > > seeker > > > > becomes one with Supreme Divinity." Now, this seems > straightforward, > > > > we're going to see a path explained, and that path will lead to > > > unity > > > > with Supreme Divinity, but after stating what is likely the > central > > > > message of the scripture, that the guru is the Supreme > Divinity, > > > Shiva > > > > lists a whole bunch of disciplines and paths (vs. 6-8) and says > > > these > > > > people, "...in the absence of understanding the principle of > Guru, > > > > perform like fools." > > > > > > > > Coming so soon in the beginning of the text, it seems likely > Shiva > > > is > > > > speaking to His audience here, and he is speaking to people > involved > > > > in all manner of spiritual disciplines, all the various paths. > Given > > > > the emphasis on wisdom in the text, I think it is likely the > author > > > is > > > > directing his writing, mostly, to a certain kind of devotee, the > > > > advanced devotee, proud of his spiritual accomplishments. Such a > > > > devotee performs like a fool, without understanding the > principle of > > > > guru, why? Perhaps because as long as he is puffed-up with > pride, > > > and > > > > without an experience of the guru's true nature all his efforts > > > > produce little fruit of value. > > > > > > > > Usually, when you look at a scripture that details a path, it is > > > > applicable to a certain kind of discipline, Samaya Tantra, for > > > > instance, or Hatha Yoga, but this `path' is, I think, applied > to all > > > > the paths and disciplines equally. So, if true, it is both a > path, > > > and > > > > not a path. > > > > > > > > It is true that there are a few systematic meditation practices > > > given > > > > here, but they are few in relation to the rest of the text, and > > > really > > > > serve the stated purpose of "perfection in the blessings of the > > > Guru." > > > > > > > > It is also true that the text does, it seems to me, describe a > > > > complete path, ie. one that can take a practitioner from the > > > beginning > > > > all the way to union, but even so, one must take into account > the > > > > necessary presence of the physical gurudeva and the fact that > she > > > > would most certainly assign specific practices to all her > students. > > > > > > > > One assumes that these people practicing all these disciplines > are > > > > doing so under the instruction of their own gurudeva. Could > this > > > fact, > > > > then, be part of the `path of the Guru'? Could it be part of the > > > > meaning of `the feet of the Guru' that is mentioned so often? > > > > > > > > As Kalia mentioned some time ago, service to the guru is also a > > > > central theme. I would ask, what service to the guru is greater > than > > > > to perform one's practices, as given, with discipline, > reverence, > > > and > > > > illumination of consciousness? What worship is greater than to > > > > lovingly offer one's daily practice at the guru's feet? > Strangely, > > > > perhaps, the text never mentions specifically doing the > practices > > > > given by the guru. Perhaps it is such a given that it is > unnecessary > > > > to mention it. > > > > > > > > Another thing that is not mentioned specifically in the text, > but is > > > > of vital importance to the guru/disciple relationship, is faith > in > > > the > > > > guru. Without full faith in the guru, even initiation cannot > take > > > > place. So, where is the mention of faith? Perhaps it is in all > the > > > > many verses proclaiming the divinity and care of the guru. > Perhaps > > > it > > > > is not mentioned because it is the unspoken essence of nearly > every > > > > verse. Indeed, if there is a `path of the Guru', then faith in > the > > > > guru certainly must be an integral part of that path, faith in > her > > > > divinity, faith in her protection, faith in her ability to lead > us > > > > from darkness to the light of union. > > > > > > > > As you have suggested, devotion to the guru is found throughout > the > > > > Guru Gita, in one form or another. Indeed, it is difficult to > > > separate > > > > devotion from service, worship, and faith. But it is > nevertheless > > > true > > > > that devotees differ in their ability to feel devotion, as well > as > > > in > > > > their ability to abide in it at all times. In other words, some > of > > > the > > > > verses, or groups of verses, the `bowing' verses for instance, > may > > > be > > > > specifically intended to engender devotion during the recitation > > > > experience, and to help those who are not quick to sink into > > > devotion, > > > > to find it. The `bowing' verses do not seem specifically > devotional > > > in > > > > and of themselves, but the act of bowing, an activity of > respect and > > > > surrender, does, I think. > > > > > > > > Alright, so we have a bunch of different people, all practicing > > > > different disciplines, under different gurudevas. All of these > > > people, > > > > as we see later in the text, are already possessed of some > devotion > > > > and mental clarity from their practices. Not just anyone is to > > > receive > > > > this teaching. So these people, in the guise of Parvati, are > given > > > > instruction in `the path of the Guru', `devotion', and > `meditation'. > > > > > > > > Some of them may see the gurudeva as a loving teacher, some may > be > > > > filled with pride at their wisdom and discipline, some may even > be > > > > half-heartedly following the guru's instructions, hanging > around on > > > > the periphery of the guru's influence, some may simply need help > > > > integrating faith, devotion, and service into a single powerful > > > > bhaava, that will propel them forward on their path, constantly > > > > holding onto the guru's feet with both hands. > > > > > > > > So, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the `path > of the > > > > guru' refers to faith in the guru, and serving the guru, which > > > > includes the concept of worshipping the guru's feet. This is > not to > > > > say that devotion and meditation are excluded, but that they > are > > > given > > > > separate emphasis in the text. > > > > > > > > What do you think??? > > > > > > > > Jai Maa! > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> > wrote: > > > > > Kalia and Chrisji and all, > > > > > > > > > > my thoughts: > > > > > > > > > > I don't understand why the path and devotion are mentioned > > > separately > > > > > in this verse: I think devotion IS the path of the Guru. > After > > > Shiva > > > > > has explained that the Guru is the Supreme Divinity and the > soul > > > of > > > > > intelligence, 'the one who gives rise to the light by which > > > > > illumination is known', he immediately goes on to explain how > we > > > are > > > > > to purify our soul: by selfless loving service and devotion > to the > > > > > Guru (vs 11 and further). The purification of the soul and > the > > > Guru > > > > > giving rise to the light within appear to be the same > process: > > > > > 'knowledge is attained through devotion to the Guru'. The > path is > > > > > mentioned explicitly in verse 99, where it is said that 'by > means > > > of > > > > > the path of intuitive vision of the Guru, the mind should be > made > > > > > pure'. To cultivate our love for the Guru leads to knowing > the > > > Guru > > > > > and knowing the Guru is knowing All. > > > > > Practical advice as to how to cultivate this love is given > right > > > in > > > > > the beginning of the text and is repeated often: remember the > > > Guru, > > > > > meditate on the Guru, recite the mantra of the Guru, remember > the > > > > > image of the Guru, observe the instruction of the Guru, > maintain > > > the > > > > > attitude of the Guru. To do all this is not easy, so the > > > recitation of > > > > > the Guru Gita itself helps strengthen our devotion. And the > > > remainder > > > > > of the text appears to explain how to recite with the most > > > benefit. > > > > > > > > > > with love, > > > > > Henny > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2005 Report Share Posted May 31, 2005 Chrisji, Wonderful! I guess She wants us to meditate on this some more, huh? Groping and stumbling along the path, searching for wisdom...and then put what we find into practice..walking the talk.. thanks for making me think again, with love, Henny , "Chris Kirner" <chriskirner1956@y. ...> wrote: > Henny, > > Hate to throw a wrench in the works, but I stumbled upon this verse > last night: > > Guru Gita verse 81 > > "By means of devotion to the Guru one obtains wisdom along with the > application of wisdom. There is nothing beyond the guru. Meditate upon > the Guru along with the path of the Guru." > > Jai Maa! > Chris > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > > Chrisji, > > > > > This still doesn't answer the question of why devotion, the path of > > > the guru, and meditation were mentioned separately as being > > explained. > > > > > > Perhaps these are simply to be understood as the `important' parts. > > > like saying, "Hey, look. This is what I want you to remember." The > > > path of the guru, taken in this sense, would not be a separate > > entity > > > within the text, alongside devotion and meditation, but would be the > > > whole text, including meditation and devotion. > > > > Sounds plausible to me. And perhaps the text has already served it > > purpose by making us think about the question of devotion so hard. ... > > > > As far as the prasad is concerned: I can't believe I missed verse > > 110, which, indeed, says it all. The richness of the Guru Gita is > > amazing isn't it? > > > > JAI GURU, > > > > with love, > > Henny > > > > > > > > > > , "Chris Kirner" > > <chriskirner1956> wrote: > > > Henny, > > > > > > I forgot to mention... > > > > > > I hadn't noticed the use of prasad in the viniyoga. That's really > > > great. As you pointed out, prasad is used richly here and there in > > the > > > text. One of the best, I think, is verse 110, > > > > > > "The Guru gives the prasad of grace (defined as what you do is what > > > you get), by which the individual soul is perceived. By means of > > this > > > path of the Guru, the wisdom of one's own soul arises." > > > > > > Yes. As you said, I think the image of prasad really expresses the > > > essence of the relationship with the guru. All of our efforts are > > > returned to us transformed in ways we cannot even imagine by the > > gurus > > > love. > > > > > > Jai Maa! > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> wrote: > > > > Chrisji, > > > > > > > > what I think is that you have a remarkable gift for careful > > reading:). > > > > And also that texts like these require careful reading as a > > > > demonstration of our respect for the teachings. > > > > > > > > So, to continue our exploration with the greatest respect: > > > > > > > > In the viniyoga, where 'perfection in the blessings of the Guru' > > is > > > > mentioned, the word 'prasad' is used for blessings. So I thought > > it > > > > might be a good idea to look for the word elsewhere in the text. > > > > I have found verse 15: 'drink the water from the Guru's feet, eat > > of > > > > his prasad, the remnants of his food' and in verse 19: 'Supreme > > > > Divinity resides in the mouth of the Guru, which is obtained as > > > > prasad'. > > > > The use of the word 'prasad' points in the direction of the idea > > of > > > > offering, transformation, receiving and sharing. And, as you say, > > > > 'what worship is greater than to lovingly offer one's daily > > practice > > > > at the guru's feet'? If we do that, if we empty the bowl with > > what we > > > > have prepared ourselves (or so we think) and offer this to the > > guru > > > > he/she will share with us the 'remnants of his food'. Our > > offering > > > > will be taken and transformed into something more beautiful, > > something > > > > stronger, brighter. We do and get. The text urges us to give in > > order > > > > to be able to receive. And what is it we receive? In verse 22, it > > > > says: 'the knowledge which resides in the Guru's mouth is > > obtained > > > > through devotion to the Guru'. We share in the Guru's knowledge. > > And > > > > what is the Guru's knowledge? Oneness, union with all that is, > > love. > > > > We share in the Guru's love. And how? Through love: through > > devotion > > > > to the Guru, in its 'natural expression' of selfless service to > > one's > > > > Guru (verse 53) and by dwelling in meditation upon the Guru 'as a > > > > loving woman dreams of her family' (verse 19). Devotion, then, > > appears > > > > to be the 'attitude' leading to 'perfection in the blessings of > > the > > > > Guru'. The only way to know love is by love. When Parvati asks > > for > > > > 'the path by means of which a seeker becomes one with Supreme > > > > Divinity' and for the Guru's grace (defined as do and get), I am > > still > > > > led to think that this path is the path of devotion, which leads > > to > > > > sharing the Guru's knowledge. > > > > > > > > But then, I think you may have a point that the text addresses > > > > different people practicing different disciplines, under > > different > > > > gurudevas. Then this would be a kind of 'metatext', describing > > and, if > > > > we recite it, establishing in us the 'path of the Guru'; removing > > > > obstacles of spiritual pride and competition, and activating in > > us the > > > > attitude that allows the Guru-principle to work no matter which > > > > discipline you practice. The texts brings the understanding that > > the > > > > Guru works through many different gurudevas. In this sense, I can > > see > > > > it is a path and not a path. > > > > > > > > You then mention the 'necessary presence of the physical gurudeva > > and > > > > the fact that she would most certainly assign specific practices > > to > > > > all her students'. If this text is a 'meta-text', I think you are > > > > right when you suggest that it is not necessary to mention doing > > the > > > > practices given by the personal guru. The text does mention > > > > 'remembering the image of the Guru, always making recitation ot > > the > > > > name of the Guru, always observing the instruction of the Guru' > > (verse > > > > 18). The text very cleverly evokes the image of the Guru > > manifesting > > > > and acting through one's personal guru (I don't know how to > > explain > > > > what I mean, but it is as if you 'see' two things in one). It > > seems to > > > > say, in a way, that no matter what you are taught to do, is is > > always > > > > the instruction of the Guru. > > > > > > > > You point out that there is no explicit mention of faith in the > > text. > > > > In verse 5, the truth about the Guru is stated and then, in the > > > > remainder of the text, we are constantly asked to test this truth > > by > > > > doing and find out what we are getting. And if we do that, our > > faith > > > > automatically will develop and grow strong. At least, that is how > > it > > > > seems to me. > > > > > > > > As far as separating devotion from service, worship and faith is > > > > concerned: to me, devotion means 'total application', 'total > > > > commitment to one's ideal', and also 'to love, honour and > > respect' > > > > (but I may have a language problem here). It is not so much a > > feeling > > > > as an attitude, a way of doing things. Feelings come and go, but > > what > > > > I understand devotion to mean is more stable than that. You can > > do > > > > service or worship with or without pleasure, but you would do it > > > > anyway because of your devotion. You may not always feel like > > cooking > > > > for your spouse, but you do it anyway because you love her. And > > when > > > > you find she has made you do it anyway, you love her even more. I > > > > really find it difficult to separate these things (but perhaps I > > have > > > > a language problem here). > > > > > > > > So this is what I think now, thanks for keeping me studying.. > > > > > > > > I like the idea of actually bowing when reciting the text, by the > > way. > > > > Never thought of it, and I'm sure it helps when reciting with > > pain in > > > > the legs... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with love, > > > > Henny > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "Chris Kirner" > > <chriskirner1956@y. > > > > ..> wrote: > > > > > Henny, > > > > > > > > > > My tendency has been the same, to think that the path of the > > guru is > > > > > devotion to the guru, but I am not sure that is all that is > > meant. > > > > > Your point is well taken, I think, why mention devotion and the > > path > > > > > of the guru and meditation separately if they are the same? I'm > > not > > > > > sure I have the answers, but there are some clues in the > > beginning > > > > of > > > > > the text that provide some hints, I think. > > > > > > > > > > First, in the viniyoga it says that the purpose of this > > recitation > > > > is, > > > > > "...to attain perfection in the blessings of the Guru..." Now, > > > > > viniyogas are usually, in my experience, short and concise, but > > > > since > > > > > this is the definitive statement of the purpose of the > > scripture, it > > > > > is important to recognize that it is specific in its purpose, > > and no > > > > > mention of any particular path or practice is mentioned. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Parvati asks in verse 3, "...teach the path by means of which a > > > > seeker > > > > > becomes one with Supreme Divinity." Now, this seems > > straightforward, > > > > > we're going to see a path explained, and that path will lead to > > > > unity > > > > > with Supreme Divinity, but after stating what is likely the > > central > > > > > message of the scripture, that the guru is the Supreme > > Divinity, > > > > Shiva > > > > > lists a whole bunch of disciplines and paths (vs. 6-8) and says > > > > these > > > > > people, "...in the absence of understanding the principle of > > Guru, > > > > > perform like fools." > > > > > > > > > > Coming so soon in the beginning of the text, it seems likely > > Shiva > > > > is > > > > > speaking to His audience here, and he is speaking to people > > involved > > > > > in all manner of spiritual disciplines, all the various paths. > > Given > > > > > the emphasis on wisdom in the text, I think it is likely the > > author > > > > is > > > > > directing his writing, mostly, to a certain kind of devotee, the > > > > > advanced devotee, proud of his spiritual accomplishments. Such a > > > > > devotee performs like a fool, without understanding the > > principle of > > > > > guru, why? Perhaps because as long as he is puffed-up with > > pride, > > > > and > > > > > without an experience of the guru's true nature all his efforts > > > > > produce little fruit of value. > > > > > > > > > > Usually, when you look at a scripture that details a path, it is > > > > > applicable to a certain kind of discipline, Samaya Tantra, for > > > > > instance, or Hatha Yoga, but this `path' is, I think, applied > > to all > > > > > the paths and disciplines equally. So, if true, it is both a > > path, > > > > and > > > > > not a path. > > > > > > > > > > It is true that there are a few systematic meditation practices > > > > given > > > > > here, but they are few in relation to the rest of the text, and > > > > really > > > > > serve the stated purpose of "perfection in the blessings of the > > > > Guru." > > > > > > > > > > It is also true that the text does, it seems to me, describe a > > > > > complete path, ie. one that can take a practitioner from the > > > > beginning > > > > > all the way to union, but even so, one must take into account > > the > > > > > necessary presence of the physical gurudeva and the fact that > > she > > > > > would most certainly assign specific practices to all her > > students. > > > > > > > > > > One assumes that these people practicing all these disciplines > > are > > > > > doing so under the instruction of their own gurudeva. Could > > this > > > > fact, > > > > > then, be part of the `path of the Guru'? Could it be part of the > > > > > meaning of `the feet of the Guru' that is mentioned so often? > > > > > > > > > > As Kalia mentioned some time ago, service to the guru is also a > > > > > central theme. I would ask, what service to the guru is greater > > than > > > > > to perform one's practices, as given, with discipline, > > reverence, > > > > and > > > > > illumination of consciousness? What worship is greater than to > > > > > lovingly offer one's daily practice at the guru's feet? > > Strangely, > > > > > perhaps, the text never mentions specifically doing the > > practices > > > > > given by the guru. Perhaps it is such a given that it is > > unnecessary > > > > > to mention it. > > > > > > > > > > Another thing that is not mentioned specifically in the text, > > but is > > > > > of vital importance to the guru/disciple relationship, is faith > > in > > > > the > > > > > guru. Without full faith in the guru, even initiation cannot > > take > > > > > place. So, where is the mention of faith? Perhaps it is in all > > the > > > > > many verses proclaiming the divinity and care of the guru. > > Perhaps > > > > it > > > > > is not mentioned because it is the unspoken essence of nearly > > every > > > > > verse. Indeed, if there is a `path of the Guru', then faith in > > the > > > > > guru certainly must be an integral part of that path, faith in > > her > > > > > divinity, faith in her protection, faith in her ability to lead > > us > > > > > from darkness to the light of union. > > > > > > > > > > As you have suggested, devotion to the guru is found throughout > > the > > > > > Guru Gita, in one form or another. Indeed, it is difficult to > > > > separate > > > > > devotion from service, worship, and faith. But it is > > nevertheless > > > > true > > > > > that devotees differ in their ability to feel devotion, as well > > as > > > > in > > > > > their ability to abide in it at all times. In other words, some > > of > > > > the > > > > > verses, or groups of verses, the `bowing' verses for instance, > > may > > > > be > > > > > specifically intended to engender devotion during the recitation > > > > > experience, and to help those who are not quick to sink into > > > > devotion, > > > > > to find it. The `bowing' verses do not seem specifically > > devotional > > > > in > > > > > and of themselves, but the act of bowing, an activity of > > respect and > > > > > surrender, does, I think. > > > > > > > > > > Alright, so we have a bunch of different people, all practicing > > > > > different disciplines, under different gurudevas. All of these > > > > people, > > > > > as we see later in the text, are already possessed of some > > devotion > > > > > and mental clarity from their practices. Not just anyone is to > > > > receive > > > > > this teaching. So these people, in the guise of Parvati, are > > given > > > > > instruction in `the path of the Guru', `devotion', and > > `meditation'. > > > > > > > > > > Some of them may see the gurudeva as a loving teacher, some may > > be > > > > > filled with pride at their wisdom and discipline, some may even > > be > > > > > half-heartedly following the guru's instructions, hanging > > around on > > > > > the periphery of the guru's influence, some may simply need help > > > > > integrating faith, devotion, and service into a single powerful > > > > > bhaava, that will propel them forward on their path, constantly > > > > > holding onto the guru's feet with both hands. > > > > > > > > > > So, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the `path > > of the > > > > > guru' refers to faith in the guru, and serving the guru, which > > > > > includes the concept of worshipping the guru's feet. This is > > not to > > > > > say that devotion and meditation are excluded, but that they > > are > > > > given > > > > > separate emphasis in the text. > > > > > > > > > > What do you think??? > > > > > > > > > > Jai Maa! > > > > > Chris > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "henny_v_i" <HvI@S...> > > wrote: > > > > > > Kalia and Chrisji and all, > > > > > > > > > > > > my thoughts: > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't understand why the path and devotion are mentioned > > > > separately > > > > > > in this verse: I think devotion IS the path of the Guru. > > After > > > > Shiva > > > > > > has explained that the Guru is the Supreme Divinity and the > > soul > > > > of > > > > > > intelligence, 'the one who gives rise to the light by which > > > > > > illumination is known', he immediately goes on to explain how > > we > > > > are > > > > > > to purify our soul: by selfless loving service and devotion > > to the > > > > > > Guru (vs 11 and further). The purification of the soul and > > the > > > > Guru > > > > > > giving rise to the light within appear to be the same > > process: > > > > > > 'knowledge is attained through devotion to the Guru'. The > > path is > > > > > > mentioned explicitly in verse 99, where it is said that 'by > > means > > > > of > > > > > > the path of intuitive vision of the Guru, the mind should be > > made > > > > > > pure'. To cultivate our love for the Guru leads to knowing > > the > > > > Guru > > > > > > and knowing the Guru is knowing All. > > > > > > Practical advice as to how to cultivate this love is given > > right > > > > in > > > > > > the beginning of the text and is repeated often: remember the > > > > Guru, > > > > > > meditate on the Guru, recite the mantra of the Guru, remember > > the > > > > > > image of the Guru, observe the instruction of the Guru, > > maintain > > > > the > > > > > > attitude of the Guru. To do all this is not easy, so the > > > > recitation of > > > > > > the Guru Gita itself helps strengthen our devotion. And the > > > > remainder > > > > > > of the text appears to explain how to recite with the most > > > > benefit. > > > > > > > > > > > > with love, > > > > > > Henny > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.