Form or formless? Both are equally true. Sri Ramakrishna conversation

[Guest guest]

Jai Maa, beloved family,

 

Here is one of the initial conversations between M, the chronicler of

The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, and Thakur Himself, Sri Ramakrishna:

 

M had yet to learn the distinction between knowledge and ignorance.

Up to this time he had thought that one got knowledge from books and

schools. Later on he gave up this false idea. He was taught that to

know God is knowledge, and not to know Him, ignorance. When Sri

Ramakrishna exclaimed, "And you are a jnani!" M's ego was again badly

shocked.

 

Master: "Well, do you believe in God with form or without form?"

 

M, rather surprised, said to himself: "How can one believe in God

without form when one believes in God with form? And if one believes

in God without form, how can one believe that God has a form? Can

these two contradictory ideas be true at the same time? Can a white

liquid like milk be black?"

 

M: "Sir, I like to think of God as formless."

 

Master: "Very good. It is enough to have faith in either aspect. You

believe in God without form; that is quite all right. But never for a

moment think that this alone is true and all else false. Remember

that God with form is just as true as God without form. But hold fast

to your own conviction."

 

The assertion that both are equally true amazed M; he had never

learnt this from his books. Thus his ego received a third blow; but

since it was not yet completely crushed, he came forward to argue

with the Master a little more.

 

M: "Sir, suppose one believes in God with form. Certainly He is not

the clay image!"

 

Master (interrupting): "But why clay? It is an image of Spirit."

 

M could not quite understand the meaning of this "image of

Spirit.But, sir," he said to the Master, "one should explain to

those who worship the clay image that it is not God, and that, while

worshipping it, they should have God in view and not the clay image.

One should not worship clay."

 

Master (sharply): "That's the one hobby of you Calcutta people -

giving lectures and bringing others to the light! Nobody ever stops

to consider how to get the light himself. Who are you to teach others?

 

"He who is the Lord of the Universe will teach everyone. He alone

will teach us, who has created this universe; who has made the sun

and moon, men and beasts, and all other beings; who has provided

means for their sustenance; who has given children parents and

endowed them with love to bring them up. The Lord has done so many

things - will He not show people the way to worship Him? If they need

teaching, then He will be the Teacher. He is our Inner Guide.

 

"Suppose there is an error in worshipping the clay image; doesn't God

know that through it He alone is being invoked? He will be pleased

with that very worship. Why should you get a headache over it? You

had better try for knowledge and devotion yourself."

 

This time M felt that his ego was completely crushed. He now said to

himself: "Yes, he has spoken the truth. What need is there for me to

teach others? Have I known God? Do I really love Him? How true is the

proverb: I haven't room enough for myself in my bed, and I am

inviting a friend to share it with me! I know nothing about God, yet

I am trying to teach others. What a shame! How foolish I am! This is

not mathematics or history or literature, that one can teach it to

others. No, this is the deep mystery of God. What he says appeals to

me." This was M's first argument with the Master, and happily his

last.

 

Master: "You were talking of worshipping the clay image. Even if the

image is made of clay, there is need for that kind of worship. God

Himself has provided different forms of worship. He who is the Lord

of the Universe has arranged all these forms to suit different men in

different stages of knowledge."

 

"The mother cooks different dishes to suit the stomachs of her

different children. Suppose she has five children. If there is a fish

to cook, she prepares various dishes from it - pilau, pickled fish,

fried fish, and so on - to suit their different tastes and powers of

digestion.

 

"Do you understand me?"

 

M (humbly): "Yes, sir. How, sir, may I fix my mind on God?"

 

Master: "Repeat God's name and sing His glories, and now and then

visit God's devotees and holy men. The mind cannot dwell on God if it

is immersed day and night in worldliness, in worldly duties and

responsibilities; it is most necessary to go into solitude now and

then and think of God. To fix the mind on God is very difficult, in

the beginning, unless one practises meditation in solitude. When a

tree is young it should be fenced all around; otherwise it may be

destroyed by cattle."

 

"There are three ways of meditating: think of God while doing your

duties, or meditate on Him in a secluded corner of your house, or

contemplate Him in a wood. And you should always discriminate between

the Real, and the unreal: God alone is real, the Eternal Substance;

all else is unreal, that is, impermanent. By discriminating thus, one

should shake off impermanent objects from the mind."

 

M (humbly): "How ought we to live the world?"

 

Master: "Do all your duties, but keep your mind on God. Live with

all - with wife and children, father and mother - and serve them.

Treat them as if they were very dear to you, but know in your heart

of hearts that they do not belong to you.

 

"A maidservant in the house of a rich man performs all the household

duties, but her thoughts are fixed on her own home in her native

village. She brings up her master's children as if they were her own.

She even speaks of them as 'my Rama' or 'my Hari.' But in her own

mind she knows very well that they do not belong to her at all.

 

"If you enter the world without first cultivating love for God, you

will be entangled more and more. You will be overwhelmed with its

danger, its grief, its sorrows. And the more you think of worldly

things, the more you will be attached to them."

 

Jai Maa! Jai Swamiji! Jai Thakur Ramakrishna Deva!

Your sister continually in awe of Thakur,

muktimaa

[Guest guest]

Thank you Muktimaa.

 

, "muktimaa" <muktimaa wrote:

>

> Jai Maa, beloved family,

>

> Here is one of the initial conversations between M, the chronicler

of

> The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, and Thakur Himself, Sri Ramakrishna:

>

> M had yet to learn the distinction between knowledge and ignorance.

> Up to this time he had thought that one got knowledge from books

and

> schools. Later on he gave up this false idea. He was taught that to

> know God is knowledge, and not to know Him, ignorance. When Sri

> Ramakrishna exclaimed, "And you are a jnani!" M's ego was again

badly

> shocked.

>

> Master: "Well, do you believe in God with form or without form?"

>

> M, rather surprised, said to himself: "How can one believe in God

> without form when one believes in God with form? And if one

believes

> in God without form, how can one believe that God has a form? Can

> these two contradictory ideas be true at the same time? Can a white

> liquid like milk be black?"

>

> M: "Sir, I like to think of God as formless."

>

> Master: "Very good. It is enough to have faith in either aspect.

You

> believe in God without form; that is quite all right. But never for

a

> moment think that this alone is true and all else false. Remember

> that God with form is just as true as God without form. But hold

fast

> to your own conviction."

>

> The assertion that both are equally true amazed M; he had never

> learnt this from his books. Thus his ego received a third blow; but

> since it was not yet completely crushed, he came forward to argue

> with the Master a little more.

>

> M: "Sir, suppose one believes in God with form. Certainly He is not

> the clay image!"

>

> Master (interrupting): "But why clay? It is an image of Spirit."

>

> M could not quite understand the meaning of this "image of

> Spirit.But, sir," he said to the Master, "one should explain to

> those who worship the clay image that it is not God, and that,

while

> worshipping it, they should have God in view and not the clay

image.

> One should not worship clay."

>

> Master (sharply): "That's the one hobby of you Calcutta people -

> giving lectures and bringing others to the light! Nobody ever stops

> to consider how to get the light himself. Who are you to teach

others?

>

> "He who is the Lord of the Universe will teach everyone. He alone

> will teach us, who has created this universe; who has made the sun

> and moon, men and beasts, and all other beings; who has provided

> means for their sustenance; who has given children parents and

> endowed them with love to bring them up. The Lord has done so many

> things - will He not show people the way to worship Him? If they

need

> teaching, then He will be the Teacher. He is our Inner Guide.

>

> "Suppose there is an error in worshipping the clay image; doesn't

God

> know that through it He alone is being invoked? He will be pleased

> with that very worship. Why should you get a headache over it? You

> had better try for knowledge and devotion yourself."

>

> This time M felt that his ego was completely crushed. He now said

to

> himself: "Yes, he has spoken the truth. What need is there for me

to

> teach others? Have I known God? Do I really love Him? How true is

the

> proverb: I haven't room enough for myself in my bed, and I am

> inviting a friend to share it with me! I know nothing about God,

yet

> I am trying to teach others. What a shame! How foolish I am! This

is

> not mathematics or history or literature, that one can teach it to

> others. No, this is the deep mystery of God. What he says appeals

to

> me." This was M's first argument with the Master, and happily his

> last.

>

> Master: "You were talking of worshipping the clay image. Even if

the

> image is made of clay, there is need for that kind of worship. God

> Himself has provided different forms of worship. He who is the Lord

> of the Universe has arranged all these forms to suit different men

in

> different stages of knowledge."

>

> "The mother cooks different dishes to suit the stomachs of her

> different children. Suppose she has five children. If there is a

fish

> to cook, she prepares various dishes from it - pilau, pickled fish,

> fried fish, and so on - to suit their different tastes and powers

of

> digestion.

>

> "Do you understand me?"

>

> M (humbly): "Yes, sir. How, sir, may I fix my mind on God?"

>

> Master: "Repeat God's name and sing His glories, and now and then

> visit God's devotees and holy men. The mind cannot dwell on God if

it

> is immersed day and night in worldliness, in worldly duties and

> responsibilities; it is most necessary to go into solitude now and

> then and think of God. To fix the mind on God is very difficult, in

> the beginning, unless one practises meditation in solitude. When a

> tree is young it should be fenced all around; otherwise it may be

> destroyed by cattle."

>

> "There are three ways of meditating: think of God while doing your

> duties, or meditate on Him in a secluded corner of your house, or

> contemplate Him in a wood. And you should always discriminate

between

> the Real, and the unreal: God alone is real, the Eternal Substance;

> all else is unreal, that is, impermanent. By discriminating thus,

one

> should shake off impermanent objects from the mind."

>

> M (humbly): "How ought we to live the world?"

>

> Master: "Do all your duties, but keep your mind on God. Live with

> all - with wife and children, father and mother - and serve them.

> Treat them as if they were very dear to you, but know in your heart

> of hearts that they do not belong to you.

>

> "A maidservant in the house of a rich man performs all the

household

> duties, but her thoughts are fixed on her own home in her native

> village. She brings up her master's children as if they were her

own.

> She even speaks of them as 'my Rama' or 'my Hari.' But in her own

> mind she knows very well that they do not belong to her at all.

>

> "If you enter the world without first cultivating love for God, you

> will be entangled more and more. You will be overwhelmed with its

> danger, its grief, its sorrows. And the more you think of worldly

> things, the more you will be attached to them."

>

> Jai Maa! Jai Swamiji! Jai Thakur Ramakrishna Deva!

> Your sister continually in awe of Thakur,

> muktimaa

>