Guest guest Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 js wrote: Devotion is, as Ramakrishna Parahamsa says, obsession, according to myexperience....Since these are directed only towards thebeloved, a devotee may be indifferent to bodily comforts, money,others opinions or even death, leading an observer to think that thedevotee has transcended all these worldly emotions and needs.But devotion gives an incredible high and ability to withstand allhurdles except the ones where the beloved is concerned, and it isaddictive. Dear js ~ I find it difficult to understand the comparison between a devotee being indifferent to bodily comforts and money and the association with obsession and addiction. In everything I have read about spirituality, Eastern and Western, that seemed true to me, the ultimate end of devotion is freedom and going beyond the guru, and even beyond the God/dess with form or without form. If you have lived with an alcoholic or addict, the difference between devotion and addiction/obsession is immediately apparant. The addict is not just giving up concerns with bodily comforts, money, etc. (though this is being done in a very unhealthy way, with no spiritual objective); the addict also gives up concerns with those for whom (s)he has accepted responsibility. Children are neglected (if they are lucky), or (if they are not lucky), they are abused. There is no rhyme or reason for this abuse or neglect. It defies reason. This is not spiritual. Being beaten, belittled, called names, and having your basic needs ignored bears nothing in common with spiritual devotion. A devotee would make sure that, if (s)he had created such responsibilities, (s)he would remain devoted to them, along with his/her spiritual path. This is why, in Hinduism, there are stages of life, and while householders are encouraged to develop their devotion, to have family altars and spiritual practices, to go to their jobs or do their jobs, etc. Then, after that responsibility is fulfilled the householder is free to go off and pursue a life of complete spirituality. This makes sense to me, and I suppose, if I have a "rule" about spirituality, it is that it passes muster when exposed to common sense. Of course, some people go right to the end to start off with. Our Beloved Shree Maa did that, but She had not, as of yet, created any responsibilities to bind Her. Karunamayi, who was also from a wealthy family, also, when she was old enough to make the decision, went into the forest to perform tapas. Her parents had nothing to say about it. On the other hand, Ammachi, who was born to a poor, fisher family, though she began to have devotees come around her at an early age, she remained living in the family home for quite some time, continuing the duties that she believed were required ... to sweep the family yard, to milk the family cow, to cook and clean and take care of her parents. And because she also made time for devotional practices and went into spiritual "moods," she was beaten. At one point her father, bent on "curing" her of this disease of spirituality, tried to marry her off. She died. She left her body, and her body was lifeless. Her father begged forgiveness of the Divine and pleaded for his daughter to return to her body, which she did. After that, her parents accepted her path. But most of us are householder devotees. Certainly, devotees, and sometimes even the merely curious will feel a sense of going beyond the normal state of consciousness, and having no other word to describe it will call it a "high." Certainly, there will be people who become "addicted" to the guru, just as they might become addicted to a substance. To my knowledge, in my limited experience, this type of "devotion" is not encouraged by the guru. To some extent we also need this ordinary state of consciousness, where our mind is active and we are able to "discriminate" appropriately. Otherwise, when we go to the grocery store, if we are in a transcendent state, we might get run over by a car. Although, I also believe there is a "secret" hidden in all spiritual teaching, whether Eastern or Western, where what I will call "ordinary reality consciousness" and "nonordinary reality consciousness" come together and we are One with the Divine and can still manage to pay attention to our surroundings, not get run over by a car, go get our groceries and make it safely back home. When I looked up obsession in the dictionary, as I had previously looked up devotion, the two are defined very differently, almost oppositionally. Here are the top two definitions of obsession: 1. Compulsive preoccupation with a fixed idea or an unwanted feeling or emotion, often accompanied by symptoms of anxiety. 2. A compulsive, often unreasonable idea or emotion. It goes on to define obsession as "...an irrational motive for performing trivial or repetitive actions against your will" and " an unhealthy and compulsive preoccupation with something or someone." Do the actions of some devotees fit this definition? I'm sure they do. (It is these instances where one must look and proceed very carefully to be sure we are not becoming involved in a cult. Do our gurus require, ask for or in any way encourage this type of behavior? None of the ones whom I truly respect have encouraged this. Shree Maa and Swamiji encourage the basics: respect and attention, and then they provide us with the tools (mantra, sankalpa, puja, etc.). I grabbed my "Ramakrishna The Nectar of Eternal Bliss" book (translated and with commentary by Shree Maa and Swamiji) to see if I could find anything similar to what you are saying. Since I haven't read the whole book it is possible I missed something, and it is also possible, as with the Bible and other sacred texts, that one can find support for whatever idea one wishes to advocate. This is why, I believe, the gurus are the ultimate authority for some of these thorny issues. (However, the several instances in which devotion was mentioned, the commentary was quite consistent with what I guote below.) Here is one from page 138 and 139 (and Muktimaa, I must say this reminds me so much of your "dancing on waves of bliss" that I just wanted to jump in to the deep end (of course, the gurus are the life preservers, or in our zeal, we might go too deep, too fast). "Ramakrishna (to Captain): Enjoy the bliss of consciousness. It will give you great delight. That bliss is always present, even if somewhat covered. As much as you are able to reduce your worldly thoughts, that much you will be able to increase your devotion to God... In the hearts of the wise, there is an inner Ganga ever flowing toward the Sea of Divinity. To them everything else is like a dream. They always remain immersed in their own self-knowledge. But for devotees there is no fear of storm or of great waves. In the hearts of devotees are the great waves of devotion. They laugh and dance and sing. all the devotees have a grand time. Sometimes they submerge themselves, and sometimes they rise up to the surface again. Just as when you put a piece of ice in the water, it bounced and floats. Devotees are like that. They bounce and float." (Swamiji's added note: This is about Brahman, the Supreme Divinity, and the primal energy, the Adya Shakti.) I was talking briefly with my hubby about this topic this morning, and he wanted an example of a devotee who wasn't addicted vs an actual addict. I only need to look as far as my own family to see the two sides, and extremes of this addiction. My father was an alcoholic. He never missed even one day of work, even for illness; he kept up outside appearances (mowing the lawn, painting the house). Nobody looking at our house would know the nightmare that existed inside. We were abused in every way; we were neglected, so that often our food choices looked more like science experiments. His mistress was more important than his family, and his alcohol was more important than anything else. Then there is my (maternal) grandmother (now deceased, and I'm sure bouncing and dancing on the waves of bliss). I never thought about this until tomorrow, but to me, though her path was Western, and she was Christian, when I look back, what I see is a true devotee. She loved God and gave time every day to Him (in her view, masculine). The very way she went about her daily tasks had a devotional quality. She was efficient; she was cheerful; she lived a balanced life. She even meditated (though she wouldn't have called it that, but every single day, after her morning duties were done, she would lie on the "day bed" in the kitchen and close her eyes. She didn't sleep, and in exactly one hour, she would get up, ready for the rest of the day. She also spent some time with simple amusements like reading or doing puzzles. She was my upa guru; my true mother; and, whatever salvation I had from what I experienced at home, she held in her sweet, simple hands. Jai Maa , Jai Swamiji ~ Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 In reply to Neirika's well thought-out message below, I still stick to my position that devotion involves suffering, doubt, addiction, and neglect of other things. Abraham nearly killed his son Isaac as a sacrifice, the Gopis of Vrindavan neglected their families and were totally down and out when Krishna was away, and Job in the Old Testament went through so much suffering and self-doubt. What does Shree Maa say? It was her question originally, as I understand. Can someone ask her? JS , nierika wrote: > > > js wrote: > > Devotion is, as Ramakrishna Parahamsa says, obsession, according to my > experience....Since these are directed only towards the > beloved, a devotee may be indifferent to bodily comforts, money, > others opinions or even death, leading an observer to think that the > devotee has transcended all these worldly emotions and needs. > But devotion gives an incredible high and ability to withstand all > hurdles except the ones where the beloved is concerned, and it is > addictive. > > > > Dear js ~ I find it difficult to understand the comparison between a devotee > being indifferent to bodily comforts and money and the association with > obsession and addiction. In everything > I have read about spirituality, Eastern and Western, that seemed true to me, > the ultimate end of devotion is freedom and going beyond the guru, and even > beyond the God/dess with form or without form. > > If you have lived with an alcoholic or addict, the difference between > devotion and addiction/obsession is immediately apparant. The addict is not just > giving up concerns with bodily comforts, money, etc. (though this is being done > in a very unhealthy way, with no spiritual objective); the addict also gives > up concerns with those for whom (s)he has accepted responsibility. Children > are neglected (if they are lucky), or (if they are not lucky), they are > abused. There is no rhyme or reason for this abuse or neglect. It defies reason. > This is not spiritual. Being beaten, belittled, called names, and having your > basic needs ignored bears nothing in common with spiritual devotion. A devotee > would make sure that, if (s)he had created such responsibilities, (s)he > would remain devoted to them, along with his/her spiritual path. This is why, in > Hinduism, there are stages of life, and while householders are encouraged to > develop their devotion, to have family altars and spiritual practices, to go > to their jobs or do their jobs, etc. Then, after that responsibility is > fulfilled the householder is free to go off and pursue a life of complete > spirituality. This makes sense to me, and I suppose, if I have a "rule" about > spirituality, it is that it passes muster when exposed to common sense. > > Of course, some people go right to the end to start off with. Our Beloved > Shree Maa did that, but She had not, as of yet, created any responsibilities to > bind Her. Karunamayi, who was also from a wealthy family, also, when she was > old enough to make the decision, went into the forest to perform tapas. Her > parents had nothing to say about it. On the other hand, Ammachi, who was born > to a poor, fisher family, though she began to have devotees come around her > at an early age, she remained living in the family home for quite some time, > continuing the duties that she believed were required ... to sweep the family > yard, to milk the family cow, to cook and clean and take care of her parents. > And because she also made time for devotional practices and went into > spiritual "moods," she was beaten. At one point her father, bent on "curing" her of > this disease of spirituality, tried to marry her off. She died. She left her > body, and her body was lifeless. Her father begged forgiveness of the Divine > and pleaded for his daughter to return to her body, which she did. After > that, her parents accepted her path. But most of us are householder devotees. > > Certainly, devotees, and sometimes even the merely curious will feel a sense > of going beyond the normal state of consciousness, and having no other word > to describe it will call it a "high." Certainly, there will be people who > become "addicted" to the guru, just as they might become addicted to a > substance. To my knowledge, in my limited experience, this type of "devotion" is not > encouraged by the guru. > > To some extent we also need this ordinary state of consciousness, where our > mind is active and we are able to "discriminate" appropriately. Otherwise, > when we go to the grocery store, if we are in a transcendent state, we might > get run over by a car. Although, I also believe there is a "secret" hidden in > all spiritual teaching, whether Eastern or Western, where what I will call > "ordinary reality consciousness" and "nonordinary reality consciousness" come > together and we are One with the Divine and can still manage to pay attention > to our surroundings, not get run over by a car, go get our groceries and make > it safely back home. > > When I looked up obsession in the dictionary, as I had previously looked up > devotion, the two are defined very differently, almost oppositionally. Here > are the top two definitions of obsession: > 1. Compulsive preoccupation with a fixed idea or an unwanted feeling or > emotion, often accompanied by symptoms of anxiety. > 2. A compulsive, often unreasonable idea or emotion. > It goes on to define obsession as "...an irrational motive for performing > trivial or repetitive actions against your will" and " an unhealthy and > compulsive preoccupation with something or someone." Do the actions of some devotees > fit this definition? I'm sure they do. (It is these instances where one must > look and proceed very carefully to be sure we are not becoming involved in a > cult. Do our gurus require, ask for or in any way encourage this type of > behavior? None of the ones whom I truly respect have encouraged this. Shree Maa > and Swamiji encourage the basics: respect and attention, and then they > provide us with the tools (mantra, sankalpa, puja, etc.). > > I grabbed my "Ramakrishna The Nectar of Eternal Bliss" book (translated and > with commentary by Shree Maa and Swamiji) to see if I could find anything > similar to what you are saying. Since I haven't read the whole book it is > possible I missed something, and it is also possible, as with the Bible and other > sacred texts, that one can find support for whatever idea one wishes to > advocate. This is why, I believe, the gurus are the ultimate authority for some of > these thorny issues. (However, the several instances in which devotion was > mentioned, the commentary was quite consistent with what I guote below.) > > Here is one from page 138 and 139 (and Muktimaa, I must say this reminds me > so much of your "dancing on waves of bliss" that I just wanted to jump in to > the deep end (of course, the gurus are the life preservers, or in our zeal, > we might go too deep, too fast). > > "Ramakrishna (to Captain): Enjoy the bliss of consciousness. It will give > you great delight. That bliss is always present, even if somewhat covered. As > much as you are able to reduce your worldly thoughts, that much you will be > able to increase your devotion to God... > > In the hearts of the wise, there is an inner Ganga ever flowing toward the > Sea of Divinity. To them everything else is like a dream. They always remain > immersed in their own self-knowledge. > > But for devotees there is no fear of storm or of great waves. In the hearts > of devotees are the great waves of devotion. They laugh and dance and sing. > all the devotees have a grand time. Sometimes they submerge themselves, and > sometimes they rise up to the surface again. Just as when you put a piece of > ice in the water, it bounced and floats. Devotees are like that. They bounce > and float." > > (Swamiji's added note: This is about Brahman, the Supreme Divinity, and the > primal energy, the Adya Shakti.) > > I was talking briefly with my hubby about this topic this morning, and he > wanted an example of a devotee who wasn't addicted vs an actual addict. I only > need to look as far as my own family to see the two sides, and extremes of > this addiction. My father was an alcoholic. He never missed even one day of > work, even for illness; he kept up outside appearances (mowing the lawn, > painting the house). Nobody looking at our house would know the nightmare that > existed inside. We were abused in every way; we were neglected, so that often our > food choices looked more like science experiments. His mistress was more > important than his family, and his alcohol was more important than anything else. > > Then there is my (maternal) grandmother (now deceased, and I'm sure bouncing > and dancing on the waves of bliss). I never thought about this until > tomorrow, but to me, though her path was Western, and she was Christian, when I look > back, what I see is a true devotee. She loved God and gave time every day to > Him (in her view, masculine). The very way she went about her daily tasks > had a devotional quality. She was efficient; she was cheerful; she lived a > balanced life. She even meditated (though she wouldn't have called it that, but > every single day, after her morning duties were done, she would lie on the "day > bed" in the kitchen and close her eyes. She didn't sleep, and in exactly one > hour, she would get up, ready for the rest of the day. She also spent some > time with simple amusements like reading or doing puzzles. She was my upa > guru; my true mother; and, whatever salvation I had from what I experienced at > home, she held in her sweet, simple hands. > > Jai Maa , Jai Swamiji ~ Linda > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 Namaste Beloved Family, In a discussion about devotion, Swamiji was saying -- Devotion is a priviledge, Addiction is a necessity. Jai MAA! ramya , "jjjingleheimers" <jjjingleheimers wrote: > > In reply to Neirika's well thought-out message below, I still stick > to my position that devotion involves suffering, doubt, addiction, > and neglect of other things. Abraham nearly killed his son Isaac as > a sacrifice, the Gopis of Vrindavan neglected their families and > were totally down and out when Krishna was away, and Job in the Old > Testament went through so much suffering and self-doubt. > > What does Shree Maa say? It was her question originally, as I > understand. Can someone ask her? > > JS > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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