Guest guest Posted February 4, 1999 Report Share Posted February 4, 1999 I mean to ask this of my teacher too, but i wanted to shoot out something for advice . i dont know if its me, if im doing something wrong, or if its just a phase of spiritual growth, but doing meditation & stuff can sometimes not be the joyful experience it once was. Its like everything got all serious all of a sudden. Besides the fact im grasping at something that is not there, is there a phase in one's development that passes through a kind of seriousness, where everything is very 'close', and one's emotional reactions seem worse than before one started spiritual practise? harsha wrote me one time something like 'the buddhist says dont be bothered!'. problem is, i am bothered, but everything i see people doing that brings harm (starting w/me), or unhappiness. Its hard to stay centered. At times, i want to go off into a cave for a while to regroup! thanks for listening --janpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 1999 Report Share Posted February 4, 1999 Debora A. Orf wrote: > I mean to ask this of my teacher too, but i wanted to shoot out something > for advice . > > i dont know if its me, if im doing something wrong, or if its just a phase > of spiritual growth, but doing meditation & stuff can sometimes not be the > joyful experience it once was. Its like everything got all serious all of > a sudden. > > Besides the fact im grasping at something that is not there, is there a > phase in one's development that passes through a kind of seriousness, > where everything is very 'close', and one's emotional reactions seem worse > than before one started spiritual practise? > > harsha wrote me one time something like 'the buddhist says dont be > bothered!'. problem is, i am bothered, but everything i see people doing > that brings harm (starting w/me), or unhappiness. Its hard to stay > centered. > > At times, i want to go off into a cave for a while to regroup! > > thanks for listening > > --janpa Hi, I would simply say that change indicates growth at the hand of Grace (which you reached out to in meditation), and that judgment of change impedes growth. What is to be gained in judgment or in "being bothered?" A person can be an activist and remain an outsider, doing their meditation. Isn't formal meditation, the cave? With love, Jerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 1999 Report Share Posted February 4, 1999 ---"Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 wrote: > > "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 > > I mean to ask this of my teacher too, but i wanted to shoot out something > for advice . > > i dont know if its me, if im doing something wrong, or if its just a phase > of spiritual growth, but doing meditation & stuff can sometimes not be the > joyful experience it once was. Its like everything got all serious all of > a sudden. > > Besides the fact im grasping at something that is not there, is there a > phase in one's development that passes through a kind of seriousness, > where everything is very 'close', and one's emotional reactions seem worse > than before one started spiritual practise? > > harsha wrote me one time something like 'the buddhist says dont be > bothered!'. problem is, i am bothered, but everything i see people doing > that brings harm (starting w/me), or unhappiness. Its hard to stay > centered. > > At times, i want to go off into a cave for a while to regroup! > > thanks for listening > > --janpa > > Hi Debora, There are definately peaks and valleys and everything else in-between. I have often had this problem with my quest. There are no easy answers, one must find them for oneself. I try not to be attached to any outcome of what my practice may bring. By attaching any preconcieved outcome of what my practice may produce my ego involvement has a penchant for negating anything positive that I may want to derive from my practice. Practice , practice , practice, let come what may, everything is sacred. Sat Nam Larry > ------ > To from this mailing list, or to change your subscription > to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at and > select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 1999 Report Share Posted February 4, 1999 Janpa, I would be curious to know what type of meditation, how long, and how often, if I may be so bold...the "bad things" that you view are in fact one of the three primary energies of MayaShakti--the first of these primary coverings, or veil of limitation--is called anavamala, and is the limiting power that provides the universial experient--Siva--with the illusary veil of limtation and the sphere of difference. There is also the second power, called mayiyamala, and this brings the illusion of difference among objects...the third, and very powerful(I believe this is what you are experiencing)is called karmamala--omnipotence is reduced to limited activity, the the experient performs and experiences good or bad acts. these three powers are the limitors of: 1. icchasakti(divine will or the knower) 2. jnanasakti (knowldge or the knowing) 3. kriyasakti (action or the known) All sentient beings possess the inferior power of kriyasakti--we are all the known...through effort, we may attain the energy of jnanasakti--the knowing(here knowing and consciousness/awareness are identical). It is only by divine grace of the knower (Siva)that we can attain icchasakti. Once this happens, the individual is said to have attained jivanmukti or Moksha--liberated while still in the body. It is this limited, objective view cause by the third maya--karmamala, that has you at odds...consider this metaphor: for the sake of argument, lets assume that your body is the omniscient Siva...each cell could be considered Jiva(Shiva in contracted form) as each cell has all of the information in its dna for the entire organism(which in this case represents Shiva). Although you know that you are an entire, single organism(Shiva), each cell(jiva) sees itself as seperate from all the rest. This is Maya, for surely each cell possesses the material for the entire you, and it is within you....Each cell(individual Jiva) has you in it, and each cell is in you--there is no difference. Now, remember you are Siva...you cut your finger, and in the process, loose some cells. The cells beside the lost cells may say (oh why was our brother/sister/mother/father cell taken from us? or you get a cold, and the white blood cells destroy the bacteria, with some healthy cells along with it. Again the cells which lost their kin due to seemingly mindless acts are grieved...or take the red blood cells, which live for 90 days, then die, and are processed in the body(mainly the liver) and recycled. This cycle of birth and death causes the kin of these cells to grieve, why did they have to die. This is objectivity, this is the veil of karmamala, one of the energies of maya. You as the complete organism(Shiva) know that these processes are neither good or bad, they are but processes. You are the absolute subject, not an objective cell within the subject. you know that these are bodily functions, not good or bad, only seemingly so to the objective cells that were immediately affected. When this veil is lifted from the cells, they merge with you in unity of one divine mind...this cell that does this has achieved liberation while still a functional cell--Moksha. When the individual cell realizes that it is synonomous with you, this is the attainment of jnanasakti--knowing...but do to the cells limitations, this is as far as it can go alone, which is knowing this...through grace alone you open the cell up to the oneness of your totality, and viola! Unity. The cell is liberated while still a functional cell. I hope this is helpful to at least some degree. I would like to know some of your meditative practices...there may be some measures that could help allay some of your concerns. In Truth Marcus Jerry M. Katz [umbada] Thursday, February 04, 1999 2:03 PM Re: joy & stuff...where'd it go? "Jerry M. Katz" <umbada Debora A. Orf wrote: > I mean to ask this of my teacher too, but i wanted to shoot out something > for advice . > > i dont know if its me, if im doing something wrong, or if its just a phase > of spiritual growth, but doing meditation & stuff can sometimes not be the > joyful experience it once was. Its like everything got all serious all of > a sudden. > > Besides the fact im grasping at something that is not there, is there a > phase in one's development that passes through a kind of seriousness, > where everything is very 'close', and one's emotional reactions seem worse > than before one started spiritual practise? > > harsha wrote me one time something like 'the buddhist says dont be > bothered!'. problem is, i am bothered, but everything i see people doing > that brings harm (starting w/me), or unhappiness. Its hard to stay > centered. > > At times, i want to go off into a cave for a while to regroup! > > thanks for listening > > --janpa Hi, I would simply say that change indicates growth at the hand of Grace (which you reached out to in meditation), and that judgment of change impedes growth. What is to be gained in judgment or in "being bothered?" A person can be an activist and remain an outsider, doing their meditation. Isn't formal meditation, the cave? With love, Jerry ------ To from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 1999 Report Share Posted February 4, 1999 Gemini asked what kind of meditation im doing. Mostly Vajrayana Buddhist stuff. Which means lots of visualization, mantras, some study. Intense stuff i do everyday (about 4 sessions of different types of visualizations etc.) Used to be i'd reach this stage of sensing a great saddness at the edge of everything, then i could go past that into a serenity. To get there it required letting go of identifying with the saddness. the serenity didnt come from *me*, it was just there/here. i guess i noticed this when i noticed that gurus often seem to be laughing and happy, and here i am very easily upset about everything bad that happens around me. Lama Lodu warned us of becoming more sensitive to things, guess that's happening. could be worse! just like, how do u keep from getting really bummed out about it all? thats the current stage this person is at. if i identify with anything, its like an invitation back into this state of 'seriously on the way to being angry at the state of the world'. Feels kinda like walking a tightrope. thanks for the replies ! with maitri, --janpa tsomo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 1999 Report Share Posted February 4, 1999 Janpa, I would like to suggest that you try a core meditation...meditations can be be brought down to roughly two different types: visualization(good for relaxation and focusing on energies) and core meditations(meditation where the is focused attention, or complete mind stillnes, without attention). These meditations are called core meditations because they should be the "core" of one's daily meditative practices. Much Grace can be bestowed during this period of meditating. Grace whispers to us, and to listen, we must dull the roar of the ego...I am firm in my belief that this addition to your practices would reap unimaginable benifits for you...the great part is that this is extraordinarly simple to do...I cannot do anything but urge you to try this for a week...just a week...if you are interested I will show you a meditation that is one of the most simple, and profound that I have seen...and I seen many. The focus of this meditation has been the vehicle for unimaginable grace, both for myself, and countless others. Let me know if you are interested...it takes five minutes to learn, and the yields of the effort make by this by far worthwhile. Light Marcus Debora A. Orf [dorf01] Thursday, February 04, 1999 3:24 PM Re: joy & stuff...where'd it go? "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 Gemini asked what kind of meditation im doing. Mostly Vajrayana Buddhist stuff. Which means lots of visualization, mantras, some study. Intense stuff i do everyday (about 4 sessions of different types of visualizations etc.) Used to be i'd reach this stage of sensing a great saddness at the edge of everything, then i could go past that into a serenity. To get there it required letting go of identifying with the saddness. the serenity didnt come from *me*, it was just there/here. i guess i noticed this when i noticed that gurus often seem to be laughing and happy, and here i am very easily upset about everything bad that happens around me. Lama Lodu warned us of becoming more sensitive to things, guess that's happening. could be worse! just like, how do u keep from getting really bummed out about it all? thats the current stage this person is at. if i identify with anything, its like an invitation back into this state of 'seriously on the way to being angry at the state of the world'. Feels kinda like walking a tightrope. thanks for the replies ! with maitri, --janpa tsomo ------ To from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 1999 Report Share Posted February 4, 1999 > "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 > > I mean to ask this of my teacher too, but i wanted to shoot out something > for advice . > > i dont know if its me, if im doing something wrong, or if its just a phase > of spiritual growth, but doing meditation & stuff can sometimes not be the > joyful experience it once was. Its like everything got all serious all of > a sudden. This would indicate that you arrived at a "layer of resistance" or minor block. The analogy is the clear sky that gets clouded. The clouds will go by themselves. Equanimity is the keyword; surrender means even the joy of meditation isn't one's "own". As long as one has feelings, they will be oscillating between "good" and "bad". For someone enlightened, the oscillations are just like waves on the ocean but without enlightenment, one only sees the waves > Besides the fact im grasping at something that is not there, is there a > phase in one's development that passes through a kind of seriousness, > where everything is very 'close', and one's emotional reactions seem worse > than before one started spiritual practise? No doubt there will be more than one phase where things seem worse than before one's spiritual endeavor. One reason is the increased awareness due to the practice. Another reason is that the joy of meditation can create expectation and dependence. > harsha wrote me one time something like 'the buddhist says dont be > bothered!'. problem is, i am bothered, but everything i see people doing > that brings harm (starting w/me), or unhappiness. Its hard to stay > centered. The Buddha was one of the very few who knew that the bliss of one's real nature has nothing to do with feelings of any kind. He attained nirvana without substratum; it means discarding all feelings and they will burn out, leaving only +who you are+. Compassion has to be practiced when one experiences difficulties in meditation, it will lead to equanimity. > At times, i want to go off into a cave for a while to regroup! But according to some, you are in a cave already (the cave of the Heart) and some cutting of knots has to be done. > thanks for listening > > --janpa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 4, 1999 Report Share Posted February 4, 1999 Janpa, In these posts that are all very loving and wise, I must caution that when we speak of ego "dying" it never does "vanish". It is a necessary construct to interact in this world. "Iness" disappears, and you have a person that would bark at themselves if they looked in a mirror...but rather, we come to understand individual Iness for what it is, a construct to interact in the day to day world. If my father passed away tommorrow, their would be tears, but I understand that this sadness is not me--this emotional state is not me, but rather I am the bacdrop of consciousness that never changes, is never subject to perturbation...it is the wise person that realizes that ego mever "dies", but rather is put in its perspective with the knowledge of true Self--universal Iness. I never recieved a post from you that stated interest in the inner sound meditation or not...if you decide to try core meditations, let me know... In Truth Marcus jb [kvy9] Thursday, February 04, 1999 7:19 PM Re: joy & stuff...where'd it go? "jb" <kvy9 > "Debora A. Orf" <dorf01 > > I mean to ask this of my teacher too, but i wanted to shoot out something > for advice . > > i dont know if its me, if im doing something wrong, or if its just a phase > of spiritual growth, but doing meditation & stuff can sometimes not be the > joyful experience it once was. Its like everything got all serious all of > a sudden. This would indicate that you arrived at a "layer of resistance" or minor block. The analogy is the clear sky that gets clouded. The clouds will go by themselves. Equanimity is the keyword; surrender means even the joy of meditation isn't one's "own". As long as one has feelings, they will be oscillating between "good" and "bad". For someone enlightened, the oscillations are just like waves on the ocean but without enlightenment, one only sees the waves > Besides the fact im grasping at something that is not there, is there a > phase in one's development that passes through a kind of seriousness, > where everything is very 'close', and one's emotional reactions seem worse > than before one started spiritual practise? No doubt there will be more than one phase where things seem worse than before one's spiritual endeavor. One reason is the increased awareness due to the practice. Another reason is that the joy of meditation can create expectation and dependence. > harsha wrote me one time something like 'the buddhist says dont be > bothered!'. problem is, i am bothered, but everything i see people doing > that brings harm (starting w/me), or unhappiness. Its hard to stay > centered. The Buddha was one of the very few who knew that the bliss of one's real nature has nothing to do with feelings of any kind. He attained nirvana without substratum; it means discarding all feelings and they will burn out, leaving only +who you are+. Compassion has to be practiced when one experiences difficulties in meditation, it will lead to equanimity. > At times, i want to go off into a cave for a while to regroup! But according to some, you are in a cave already (the cave of the Heart) and some cutting of knots has to be done. > thanks for listening > > --janpa ------ To from this mailing list, or to change your subscription to digest, go to the ONElist web site, at and select the User Center link from the menu bar on the left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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