Guest guest Posted March 6, 1999 Report Share Posted March 6, 1999 Hello Dharma, I said: "First let me say that from the experience of life, their is no difference between fear and pain, unless one of degree. In other words pain is a form of fear." You said: "I can't agree with you on that. At least, not in regard to physical pain. A dentist explained to me once that some people actually do feel much more pain from their teeth than others do." I don't seem to understand where we disagree in our propositions? Physical pain being tied to physical ego. If ones include physical ego to is or hers others ego or identities is another question. "All a matter of body chemistry, he said." Is body chemistry outside of ones identity or ego? "Learn to distinguish between discomfort and pain, it said; if it's only discomfort, it isn't so bad." Maybe one can even push the left discomfort to pleasure or Bliss... Is it not part of our work on this plane? Hi said: "From my physics background and mind: fear/pain is inertia/matter to ether/spirit, matter is ether crystallized by fear." Dharma: "If that were true, it would mean that fear is a necessary part of the process of creating the physical world and maintaining it." Yes, why not?... A certain type of world at least. Is there any type of world where no fear exist and still knows it's a world? I said: "In relation to what you said, for a fire walker (example), bringing to his/her attention "the snatching process of tacking the hand away from the stove", would burn them as he/she walks on fire." Dharma: "Relatively speaking, yes... but you'll notice the firewalkers keep moving... they don't just stand there or have a nap in the fire... )" Yes, but what limits them in taking a nap there if they wanted to? Fear? pain? Is it still because deep uncounscious programs are being so used to see a veil between the body and their spirit? the encrusted memory of how there body works? I don't know, i'm trying to understand from ever deeper... >Memory in a sense is a kind of fear. "I think you're just speaking of remembering certain things, not of memory as such." I don't know, most probably a habit in the way of using words. Memory implies a notion of time. Believing that all is not here at this moment creates the illusion of memory we have to access in time. This veil that creates Time, i named it here: fear. What you call "memory as such", outside of time, is i believe in my words the "divine blue print" that is all already there, nothing is new to it... So i believe we are trying to say the same thing, using diferently the words. I may be wrong from this perspective of mine of the moment. I said: >What makes us seek the less painful way? That very principle behind that question, just fascinates me. Maybe i create that question to amuse myself, my exercise of brushing my teeth today . Dharma: "Well, I don't always. We will all accept some pain if it seems necessary." This is getting interesthing to me. What makes them necessary? Looking around what pushes anything or anyone to believe something is necessary, pain in this case? "In addition, I have been whipped and learned to enjoy it... Then the pain as been transformed, it is not pain anymore. "Hey, is that any stranger than walking on fire? )" To me it's the same, like in kung fu and simply the act of breathing. It as all those ingredients. "People will accept pain if necessary, and some people enjoy some kinds of pain... but that doesn't mean there isn't real pain out there that nobody enjoys..." The "thing" that is behind "accept pain if necessary" leads, for me, to the same "thing" that is behind the "real pain out there that nobody enjoys..." For me it points to the limit of our Identity that we are able to open to Goddess. It points to the limit of our ego, the barrier between the outside and inside of ones perception of who he or she is.. "If I ever have to have surgery again, I'll certainly do my best to turn that post-op pain into bliss, but I think I'll be very glad for some chemical medication. )" Would you not prefer to give birth without pain, not only the illusion of no pain, but no pain at all without the artifice of medication? Maybe Nature placed pain on our path until we are balanced enough to still pay all our attention to our procreation's? Who knows?... Still my question is pain really unavoidable? and what is it? Enjoy, Antoine >From reading the list: >Having fear contradicts functioning without a "me". "I have to agree. It is the 'me' and the 'me' only (a.k.a. the ego) that experiences fear." Tim "If fear is ego, then so is hunger and fatigue." Phil "The pain of being labelled..." "We only fear the things that we do not understand" Tim Harris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 1999 Report Share Posted March 6, 1999 At 07:02 PM 3/6/99 -0500, you wrote: >Yes, why not?... A certain type of world at least. Is there any type of >world where no fear exist and still knows it's a world? Certainly, and it's a world I've been to personally. This world is commonly known as "Love." It is indeed a joyous world. Come visit sometime. Touching the hem of the Infinite with you, Tim ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, even Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 6, 1999 Report Share Posted March 6, 1999 Hi Antoine, >I said: >"First let me say that from the experience of life, their is no difference >between fear and pain, unless one of degree. In other words pain is a form >of fear." > >You said: >"I can't agree with you on that. At least, not in regard to physical >pain. A dentist explained to me once that some people actually do feel much >more pain from their teeth than others do." > >I don't seem to understand where we disagree in our propositions? Physical >pain being tied to physical ego. If ones include physical ego to is or hers >others ego or identities is another question. But that isn't what you said, my friend. Now you want to pull it into the ego argument. ) > >"All a matter of body chemistry, he said." > >Is body chemistry outside of ones identity or ego? Let's leave the ego discussion for something separate... >"Learn to distinguish between discomfort and pain, it said; if it's only >discomfort, it isn't so bad." > >Maybe one can even push the left discomfort to pleasure or Bliss... Is it >not part of our work on this plane? I don't know, do you think it is? We are told the world is made of opposites... hot and cold, pleasure and pain... >Hi said: >"From my physics background and mind: fear/pain is inertia/matter to >ether/spirit, matter is ether crystallized by fear." > >Dharma: >"If that were true, it would mean that fear is a necessary part of the >process of creating the physical world and maintaining it." > >Yes, why not?... A certain type of world at least. Is there any type of >world where no fear exist and still knows it's a world? Maybe so... have you read Cayce on the "sojourns" between lives? Of course, they may not all be grossly physical... I read that we are on the absolute lowest level of physical manifestation... ground zero... >I said: >"In relation to what you said, for a fire walker (example), bringing to >his/her attention "the snatching process of tacking the hand away from the >stove", would burn them as he/she walks on fire." > >Dharma: >"Relatively speaking, yes... but you'll notice the firewalkers keep >moving... they don't just stand there or have a nap in the fire... )" > >Yes, but what limits them in taking a nap there if they wanted to? Fear? >pain? Is it still because deep uncounscious programs are being so used to >see a veil between the body and their spirit? the encrusted memory of how >there body works? I don't know, i'm trying to understand from ever deeper... Why not ask a firewalker? I haven't done it... in this life anyway )) .... Ask Angelique. >>Memory in a sense is a kind of fear. > >"I think you're just speaking of remembering certain things, not of memory >as such." > >I don't know, most probably a habit in the way of using words. Memory >implies a notion of time. Believing that all is not here at this moment >creates the illusion of memory we have to access in time. This veil that >creates Time, i named it here: fear. What you call "memory as such", outside >of time, is i believe in my words the "divine blue print" that is all >already there, nothing is new to it... So i believe we are trying to say the >same thing, using diferently the words. I may be wrong from this perspective >of mine of the moment. I'm not sure where you're at... there's more than one kind of memory... >I said: >>What makes us seek the less painful way? That very principle behind that >>question, just fascinates me. Maybe i create that question to amuse >>myself, my exercise of brushing my teeth today . > >Dharma: >"Well, I don't always. We will all accept some pain if it seems necessary." > >This is getting interesthing to me. What makes them necessary? Looking >around what pushes anything or anyone to believe something is necessary, >pain in this case? Anything that seems more important than avoiding pain... having a baby... doing kung fu... having necessary surgery... people have thrown themselves in front of cars to push other people out of the way... We accept pain when we choose to incarnate... we know pain is a part of this world... but there is so much that is beautiful too... a unique arena of experience... this is not found on other planes... I enjoy the miracle of the grass, the rose... I do not experience them in the same way on any other plane... >"In addition, I have been whipped and learned to enjoy it... > >Then the pain as been transformed, it is not pain anymore. Have you tried it? >"Hey, is that any stranger than walking on fire? )" > >To me it's the same, like in kung fu and simply the act of breathing. It as >all those ingredients. > >"People will accept pain if necessary, and some people enjoy some kinds of >pain... but that doesn't mean there isn't real pain out there that nobody >enjoys..." > >The "thing" that is behind "accept pain if necessary" leads, for me, to the >same "thing" that is behind the "real pain out there that nobody enjoys..." > >For me it points to the limit of our Identity that we are able to open to >Goddess. It points to the limit of our ego, the barrier between the outside >and inside of ones perception of who he or she is.. If you are saying that it's not necessary for me to experience pain or fear, I agree. But if I live in a state where I do not experience these things, am I still human? Can I interact with other people in the way that I want to? I think we are coming to the question of why is one in this life... what is one here to do, to learn, to accomplish... and the answer may be different for each one of us... I see Jan living closer to the nondual all the time, lifting his awareness nearer and nearer to being that all the time... and it is beautiful... but it is not my way... I have a job or two to do, and that is not the best way for me to do them... Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 1999 Report Share Posted March 7, 1999 > Dharma <fisher1 [...] > > I see Jan living closer to the nondual all the time, lifting his awareness > nearer and nearer to being that all the time... and it is beautiful... > but it is not my way... I have a job or two to do, and that is not the > best way for me to do them... > > Love, > Dharma Dear Dharma, You are depriving yourself by thinking nonduality and work don't mix. They do; nonduality became a reality while having a job for about 2 years (admitted, a 50% part time job) and after that there were some 20 years with a "normal" job. There are some constraints but in general it is possible and this is in accordance with literature. For Westerners with a rather complicated ego-structure I would consider it even advisable as in seclusion one won't become as easily aware of certain impediments as when living "normal" life. If progress demands a change of lifestyle, Grace will take care of that. Jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 1999 Report Share Posted March 7, 1999 >>Dharma: >> I see Jan living closer to the nondual all the time, lifting his awareness >> nearer and nearer to being that all the time... and it is beautiful... >> but it is not my way... I have a job or two to do, and that is not the >> best way for me to do them... >jb: >You are depriving yourself by thinking nonduality and work don't mix. They >do; nonduality became a reality while having a job for about 2 years >(admitted, a 50% part time job) and after that there were some 20 years with >a "normal" job. There are some constraints but in general it is possible and >this is in accordance with literature. For Westerners with a rather >complicated ego-structure I would consider it even advisable as in seclusion >one won't become as easily aware of certain impediments as when living >"normal" life. If progress demands a change of lifestyle, Grace will take >care of that. Dharma: Thank you, Jan, but... I didn't say that nonduality and work don't mix.... I said your path is not my path. In Jerry's FAQ, he speaks of three kinds of nondualism: >There are at least three kinds of nondualism. > >One kind, Ultimate Nondualism, directly knows The Absolute as that sameness >or homogeneity. > >A second kind, Process Nondualism, recognizes attention as the bridge to The >Absolute, so that through an unceasing act of attention upon attention, the >Absolute is unceasingly being known. The process of attention upon attention >may occur as the culmination of mental inquiry into the nature of reality >through mathematics, physics, logic, wherein attention returns to itself as >a nondual void. It is more than intellectual understanding; a shift in >consciousness results. It may occur as just what it has been stated to be: a >turning of attention onto attention. > >A third kind, Word Nondualism, recognizes Ultimate Reality and its >modification, the universe. The essential nature of the universe is known >through I AM (though some may wish to substitute OM, AUM, or another mantra >or Word, for I AM. The expression Ground of Being may be used.) My impression is that you are a process nondualist. I am an ultimate nondualist. Love... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 7, 1999 Report Share Posted March 7, 1999 > Dharma <fisher1 > > >>Dharma: > >> I see Jan living closer to the nondual all the time, lifting > his awareness > >> nearer and nearer to being that all the time... and it is beautiful... > >> but it is not my way... I have a job or two to do, and that is not the > >> best way for me to do them... > > >jb: > >You are depriving yourself by thinking nonduality and work don't > mix. They > >do; nonduality became a reality while having a job for about 2 years > >(admitted, a 50% part time job) and after that there were some > 20 years with > >a "normal" job. There are some constraints but in general it is > possible and > >this is in accordance with literature. For Westerners with a rather > >complicated ego-structure I would consider it even advisable as > in seclusion > >one won't become as easily aware of certain impediments as when living > >"normal" life. If progress demands a change of lifestyle, Grace will take > >care of that. > > Dharma: > Thank you, Jan, but... I didn't say that nonduality and work > don't mix.... > I said your path is not my path. In Jerry's FAQ, he speaks of three kinds > of nondualism: > > >There are at least three kinds of nondualism. > > > >One kind, Ultimate Nondualism, directly knows The Absolute as > that sameness > >or homogeneity. > > > >A second kind, Process Nondualism, recognizes attention as the > bridge to The > >Absolute, so that through an unceasing act of attention upon > attention, the > >Absolute is unceasingly being known. The process of attention > upon attention > >may occur as the culmination of mental inquiry into the nature of reality > >through mathematics, physics, logic, wherein attention returns > to itself as > >a nondual void. It is more than intellectual understanding; a shift in > >consciousness results. It may occur as just what it has been > stated to be: a > >turning of attention onto attention. > > > >A third kind, Word Nondualism, recognizes Ultimate Reality and its > >modification, the universe. The essential nature of the > universe is known > >through I AM (though some may wish to substitute OM, AUM, or > another mantra > >or Word, for I AM. The expression Ground of Being may be used.) > > My impression is that you are a process nondualist. I am an ultimate > nondualist. > > Love... Wrong impression. No ultimate, no knowing, no attention, no recognition, no -ism, just being. Too simple to be true ? What is presumed to be progress is just an increase of the ability to express matters in a language that isn't the native one By merely being one doesn't increase expressiveness - this requires "work" based on issues such as the list(s) are providing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 >> >>Dharma: >> >> I see Jan living closer to the nondual all the time, lifting >> his awareness >> >> nearer and nearer to being that all the time... and it is beautiful... >> >> but it is not my way... I have a job or two to do, and that is not the >> >> best way for me to do them... >> >> >jb: >> >You are depriving yourself by thinking nonduality and work don't >> mix. They >> >do; nonduality became a reality while having a job for about 2 years >> >(admitted, a 50% part time job) and after that there were some >> 20 years with -snip- >> Dharma: >> Thank you, Jan, but... I didn't say that nonduality and work >> don't mix.... >> I said your path is not my path. In Jerry's FAQ, he speaks of three kinds >> of nondualism: >> >> >There are at least three kinds of nondualism. >> > >> >One kind, Ultimate Nondualism, directly knows The Absolute as >> that sameness >> >or homogeneity. >> > >> >A second kind, Process Nondualism, recognizes attention as the >> bridge to The >> >Absolute, so that through an unceasing act of attention upon >> attention, the >> >Absolute is unceasingly being known. The process of attention >> >snip< >> > >> >A third kind, Word Nondualism, recognizes Ultimate Reality and its >> >modification, the universe. The essential nature of the >> universe is known >> >through I AM (though some may wish to substitute OM, AUM, or >> another mantra >> >or Word, for I AM. The expression Ground of Being may be used.) >> >> My impression is that you are a process nondualist. I am an ultimate >> nondualist. > >jb: >Wrong impression. No ultimate, no knowing, no attention, no recognition, > no -ism, just being. Too simple to be true ? What is presumed to be >progress is just an increase of the ability to express matters in a language >that isn't the native one By merely being one doesn't increase >expressiveness - this requires "work" based on issues such as the list(s) >are providing... Dharma: Speaking for yourself only, I presume... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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