Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 At 05:37 PM 3/8/99 -0500, you wrote: >A very interesting and fundamental point is raised in the posting, >regarding reincarnation. Ramesh is a "disciple" of Sri >Nissargadatta, the latter being famous for his book "I am That". >I am extremely fond of that book, but later publications show >changes in his oulook. Forgive me, but he almost seems to >have become slightly senile in his old age. One of those changes >is that reincarnation simply does not exist. >Of course we have the Advaitin viewpoint that nothing really exists, >but Nissargatta did not even assign a dream reality to reincarnation. >I have studied his reasons for this with extreme attention, and >believe them to be fallacious. U.G. Krishnamurti has an interesting explanation for this: "Reincarnation exists for those who believe it exists. Those who believe in it will reincarnate. Those who do not believe in it will not reincarnate." That's a more or less literal "translation" filtered through this mind of what he was saying. I offer no opinion whatsoever on U.G.'s outlook, other than perhaps that I don't care whether or not reincarnation exists, I care about what is happening to me at this Now. When I die, then I'll concern myself with it :-) I've personally gone through so many stages of getting "hung up on" different aspects of nonduality, such as the Eternal Now Moment... this concept originally caused me all kinds of suffering and mental agonizing because I felt that a true "Eternal Now" would be to stand OUTSIDE of time rather than to be on a moving timeline. Then I realized something - Who cares? What difference do these dogmatic aspects of nonduality make? What is, IS. If reincarnation exists, it exists. If it does not exist, it does not exist. I believe (through faith only) that it DOES exist, but I neither dwell on it, nor care about it. Why bother to care about what happens after death, while still living? If life is lived thusly, the NOW is missed. With Love, Tim ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.serv.net/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, even Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 Trying to pin down "authorities" in Advaita is a shaky objective. Ramana Maharshi may be an authority to some, but there are some Advaitins in India who consider him a fake, because he was not properly "educated" in scholastic Vedanta. Seeing "senility" in Nisargadatta may just be a matter of context. Either way, I'm not too concerned about such rumors, nor about rumors of Krishnamurti's sexual proclivity. They (the rumors) only seem important if you are attached to an ideal image of what it means to be enlightened. The best teachers are the ones who, like Buddha, tell you to be a light unto yourself. About reincarnation. If there is any truth to reincarnation, then it must mean that, at any given moment, I am everyone. Advaita teaches that all is the Self, so that while the continuance of the particular person called "Phil" is a palpable absurdity, yet that essence that I am is identical with that essence that you are. That means that I could be you and you could be me. Who knows? "I am vast; I contain multitudes." -- Walt Whitman. .... Phil ... Phillip Burton <p_burton <http://www.austintx.net/pbek/1sthought.html> >"Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar > >Harsha: I saw the following message from Barry Kauler a while back and >thought it made interesting reading. Many people on other lists might find >it thought provoking so I am forwarding it without any comments. > >"Barry Kauler" <b.kauler > >A very interesting and fundamental point is raised in the posting, >regarding reincarnation. Ramesh is a "disciple" of Sri >Nissargadatta, the latter being famous for his book "I am That". >I am extremely fond of that book, but later publications show >changes in his oulook. Forgive me, but he almost seems to >have become slightly senile in his old age. One of those changes >is that reincarnation simply does not exist. >Of course we have the Advaitin viewpoint that nothing really exists, >but Nissargatta did not even assign a dream reality to reincarnation. >I have studied his reasons for this with extreme attention, and >believe them to be fallacious. >Unfortunately, Ramesh is continuing with this. > >Ramana Maharshi would have to be "the" authority on non-dualism, >and he stated, many times, that reincarnation is a fact, though he >always emphasised that it is as real as our bodies are. >Poonjaji, one of the greatest disciples of Ramana Maharshi, saw >all of his past lives flash before him, covering thousands of lives, >but he saw it all in a second. In his last life he was a bhakta, a >devottee of Krishna. > >However, it's not just the testimony of so many realised >beings and of the Hindu scriptures, and of many cases of >ordinary people remembering past lives. >I have a book of Nissargatta's that are talks given when he was >very old, and I also have a book of Ramesh's. >Both make statements about reincarnation, but do >not answer the questions logically when challenged. They are >evasive. It is not the evasiveness of trying to express profound >concepts that cannot be expressed, rather it is simply evasiveness, >because they cannot properly justify their viewpoint. > >Perhaps others will not have my scalpel-like intuition, to determine >faults in these people. After all, Nissargatta is a realised being, >right, to he must know all the answers? Wrong. I learnt this the >hard way. I'm a Jnani, my Kundalini is alive, and intuition is very >strong. >Perhaps this will start a lively thread of discussion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 Harsha: I saw the following message from Barry Kauler a while back and thought it made interesting reading. Many people on other lists might find it thought provoking so I am forwarding it without any comments. [...] > Ramana Maharshi would have to be "the" authority on non-dualism, > and he stated, many times, that reincarnation is a fact, though he > always emphasised that it is as real as our bodies are. > Poonjaji, one of the greatest disciples of Ramana Maharshi, saw > all of his past lives flash before him, covering thousands of lives, > but he saw it all in a second. In his last life he was a bhakta, a > devottee of Krishna. [...] Jan: I have no other possibility than to accept Ramana's statement. I wasn't born a blank and memory contained knowledge, coming from "somewhere" with a simple, natural way of life but a highly advanced technology. My father attached on object near me, looking like a very simple satellite that gave the impression I was landed in a rather primitive society and during the night I roared with laughter because of its backwardness, thinking that by the time of being an adult, technology could have advanced to enable returning to "civilization" again. As this is rather unusual behavior for a newborn, each birthday I had to hear the story of waking up my parents by laughter in the middle of the night and never forgot it. Because W.W.II was raging, there is no way of explaining things by "induction" from adults watching Star Trek. Later, during a phase of chakra piercing, there was a succession of "inner" images confirming the above. Although from the perspective of Self-realization reincarnation is irrelevant, seeing one's life in retrospect shows the influence on sadhana of the tendencies, inherited from "previous life (lives)" and the ones, gathered in the present life.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 1999 Report Share Posted March 8, 1999 Your points are uniformly excellent, Phil, thanks! All of this reminds me of two very good pieces of advice. The first is to avoid obsession on the biographical details of the finger and notice that to which it points, the second is that regardless of the facts or non-facts of reincarnation and karma, surely we called to live as if this incarnation is our one and only. On Mon, 8 Mar 1999 19:26:48 -0600 "Phillip Burton" <p_burton writes: >"Phillip Burton" <p_burton > >Trying to pin down "authorities" in Advaita is a shaky objective. >Ramana >Maharshi may be an authority to some, but there are some Advaitins in >India >who consider him a fake, because he was not properly "educated" in >scholastic Vedanta. > >Seeing "senility" in Nisargadatta may just be a matter of context. >Either >way, I'm not too concerned about such rumors, nor about rumors of >Krishnamurti's sexual proclivity. They (the rumors) only seem >important if >you are attached to an ideal image of what it means to be enlightened. > The >best teachers are the ones who, like Buddha, tell you to be a light >unto yourself. > >About reincarnation. If there is any truth to reincarnation, then it >must >mean that, at any given moment, I am everyone. Advaita teaches that >all is >the Self, so that while the continuance of the particular person >called >"Phil" is a palpable absurdity, yet that essence that I am is >identical >with that essence that you are. That means that I could be you and >you could be me. Who knows? > >"I am vast; I contain multitudes." -- Walt Whitman. > >... Phil ... > >Phillip Burton ><p_burton ><http://www.austintx.net/pbek/1sthought.html> > > >>"Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar >> >>Harsha: I saw the following message from Barry Kauler a while back >and >>thought it made interesting reading. Many people on other lists might >find >>it thought provoking so I am forwarding it without any comments. >> >>"Barry Kauler" <b.kauler >> >>A very interesting and fundamental point is raised in the posting, >>regarding reincarnation. Ramesh is a "disciple" of Sri >>Nissargadatta, the latter being famous for his book "I am That". >>I am extremely fond of that book, but later publications show >>changes in his oulook. Forgive me, but he almost seems to >>have become slightly senile in his old age. One of those changes >>is that reincarnation simply does not exist. >>Of course we have the Advaitin viewpoint that nothing really exists, >>but Nissargatta did not even assign a dream reality to >reincarnation. >>I have studied his reasons for this with extreme attention, and >>believe them to be fallacious. >>Unfortunately, Ramesh is continuing with this. >> >>Ramana Maharshi would have to be "the" authority on non-dualism, >>and he stated, many times, that reincarnation is a fact, though he >>always emphasised that it is as real as our bodies are. >>Poonjaji, one of the greatest disciples of Ramana Maharshi, saw >>all of his past lives flash before him, covering thousands of lives, >>but he saw it all in a second. In his last life he was a bhakta, a >>devottee of Krishna. >> >>However, it's not just the testimony of so many realised >>beings and of the Hindu scriptures, and of many cases of >>ordinary people remembering past lives. >>I have a book of Nissargatta's that are talks given when he was >>very old, and I also have a book of Ramesh's. >>Both make statements about reincarnation, but do >>not answer the questions logically when challenged. They are >>evasive. It is not the evasiveness of trying to express profound >>concepts that cannot be expressed, rather it is simply evasiveness, >>because they cannot properly justify their viewpoint. >> >>Perhaps others will not have my scalpel-like intuition, to determine >>faults in these people. After all, Nissargatta is a realised being, >>right, to he must know all the answers? Wrong. I learnt this the >>hard way. I'm a Jnani, my Kundalini is alive, and intuition is very >>strong. >>Perhaps this will start a lively thread of discussion! > > > >------ >Ideas on how we can improve ONElist? > >Check out the Suggestion Box feature on our new web site > _________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 1999 Report Share Posted March 9, 1999 Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar) wrote: Gloria: I added our heart list to this discussion since it may be something they would like to reflect on as well. Reincarnation is always a complex subject, it doesn't have much meaning until one is experiencing it from inside, then it is hard to discard. > > "Harsha (Dr. Harsh K. Luthar)" <hluthar > > Harsha: I saw the following message from Barry Kauler a while back and > thought it made interesting reading. Many people on other lists might find > it thought provoking so I am forwarding it without any comments. > > "Barry Kauler" <b.kauler > > A very interesting and fundamental point is raised in the posting, > regarding reincarnation. Ramesh is a "disciple" of Sri > Nissargadatta, the latter being famous for his book "I am That". > I am extremely fond of that book, but later publications show > changes in his oulook. Forgive me, but he almost seems to > have become slightly senile in his old age. One of those changes > is that reincarnation simply does not exist. > Of course we have the Advaitin viewpoint that nothing really exists, > but Nissargatta did not even assign a dream reality to reincarnation. > I have studied his reasons for this with extreme attention, and > believe them to be fallacious. > Unfortunately, Ramesh is continuing with this. > > Ramana Maharshi would have to be "the" authority on non-dualism, > and he stated, many times, that reincarnation is a fact, though he > always emphasised that it is as real as our bodies are. > Poonjaji, one of the greatest disciples of Ramana Maharshi, saw > all of his past lives flash before him, covering thousands of lives, > but he saw it all in a second. In his last life he was a bhakta, a > devottee of Krishna. > > However, it's not just the testimony of so many realised > beings and of the Hindu scriptures, and of many cases of > ordinary people remembering past lives. > I have a book of Nissargatta's that are talks given when he was > very old, and I also have a book of Ramesh's. > Both make statements about reincarnation, but do > not answer the questions logically when challenged. They are > evasive. It is not the evasiveness of trying to express profound > concepts that cannot be expressed, rather it is simply evasiveness, > because they cannot properly justify their viewpoint. > > Perhaps others will not have my scalpel-like intuition, to determine > faults in these people. After all, Nissargatta is a realised being, > right, to he must know all the answers? Wrong. I learnt this the > hard way. I'm a Jnani, my Kundalini is alive, and intuition is very > strong. > Perhaps this will start a lively thread of discussion! > > ------ > If you like orange and blue, then you will love our new web site! > > Onelist: Fostering connections and information exchange -- Enter The Silence to Know God ... and... accept life as the teacher. Gloria Joy Greco e-mail me at : lodpress and visit our homepages at: http://users.intercomm.com/larryn/ & http://www.freeyellow.com/members/zg888/ Hope you enjoy them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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