Guest guest Posted March 13, 1999 Report Share Posted March 13, 1999 >> Tim Gerchmez <fewtch >> Suffering is indeed a way to learn. However, there is a type of "ignorant >> suffering" that is often only that; suffering. More human beings seem to >> suffer in ignorance and learn little from it than those who accept >> suffering as a lesson. Many cling so strongly and fearfully to the ego >> that suffering becomes a way of life. There are even those called >> sadomasochists who have learned to ENJOY suffering as an end in itself, >> especially the suffering of others. > >Gloria: > Yes, indeed, they get stuck in the processing and actually turn it into >self gratification. This is a very dangerous place to land. I have a >dear friend who has done this. When any thought form becomes self >fulfilling, the individual continues to create the suffering. > >> To me this is ultimate perversion of ego. > >Gloria: >I agree. Gee, and I just read your responses to Marcus. Sounded like you gave up judging others. >Tim Gerchmez <fewtch >I have met at least one person who is stuck at that critical juncture you >mention, who is not liberated, who continues to mercilessly judge the world >of Maya, and thus ultimately loses Himself. In fact, this person does so >aggressively on Usenet. I wish He could see your message; however he might >discount it. He is stuck into the judgemental pattern so strongly that >there's little possibility for release in this lifetime. Your description >of a "hybrid" combination of Self-Realization and ego fits this person "To >a T." ------------ >> Marcus: >> grasp. Assuming I have actually went as far as I can go, my ego begins >> picking apart all the seeming ignorances, senseless acts, and >> so-called sins. I become judgemental, becoming an ego-god. The world >> is imperfect and I make judgements. > >Gloria: > This is what I call sliding off center and losing that interior >surrender which can leave an individual thinking they are there when the >soul/spirit hasn't become absorbed into Divine Will.... Tim, have you forgotten writing this? >Fri, 05 Mar 1999 22:26:23 -0800 > >Tim Gerchmez <fewtch >snip< >Fear is the ego's response to physical pain, as is suffering. If the ego >is not involved, physical pain becomes nothing more than an intense >sensation, one to be studied from a detached viewpoint. > >snip< > >There's no reason NOT to enjoy pain, any more than there is to enjoy >"pleasure." As both are intense sensations, if one gets pleasure from the >intensity of the sensation (or learns something from it), what's the >problem? :-) It might be that in your message on top, you meant to speak of non-consensual sadists. And in your last post here, you were apparently speaking of consensual SM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 1999 Report Share Posted March 13, 1999 At 04:00 AM 3/13/99 -0600, you wrote: >>There's no reason NOT to enjoy pain, any more than there is to enjoy >>"pleasure." As both are intense sensations, if one gets pleasure from the >>intensity of the sensation (or learns something from it), what's the >>problem? :-) If you'll read again, Dharma, you'll see that I was speaking of enjoying SUFFERING, not pain (the two are not synonymous), and most specifically the suffering of others, not one's own suffering. Perhaps sadist/masochist are the wrong terms for those who enjoy watching others suffer. Pain is a physical sensation; Suffering is an ego-reaction to pain. Actually I was wrong in one area, nobody enjoys their "own" suffering, as far as I can tell. There may be those who enjoy the sensation of pain, but I can't see that anyone could really love to suffer. If pain is enjoyed, it's not suffering, is it, it's enjoyment. Also, I never made any reference to sexuality or "S&M" as commonly defined. Sexuality does not necessarily have to be involved... have you noticed how many people slow WAY down as they drive by the scene of an automobile accident? You can guess what they're looking for... blood and guts, and maybe somebody half sliced in two but still alive and fighting to get out of the wreck. That is more what I was referring to. Someone who likes to see such things regularly (and I'm not talking about movies - that provides little satisfaction to such people, although movie violence probably plays a part in creating such problems) has a sick and perverted ego. >It might be that in your message on top, you meant to speak of >non-consensual sadists. And in your last post here, you were apparently >speaking of consensual SM. > > > >------ >Ta Da! Come see our new web site! > >Onelist: A free email community service > > ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 1999 Report Share Posted March 14, 1999 Hi Tim, >If you'll read again, Dharma, you'll see that I was speaking of enjoying >SUFFERING, not pain (the two are not synonymous), and most specifically the >suffering of others, not one's own suffering. Okay, I see what you mean. Actually, in a discussion on another list, someone just referred to a consensual masochist as one who believes "suffering is a spiritual path." Which surprised me so much I really missed the confusion of suffering and pain... But all that was in my mind when I read your letter... >Perhaps sadist/masochist are >the wrong terms for those who enjoy watching others suffer. I think they're unfortunate words to begin with, coming from the names of those two people. And then there's a huge difference between non-consensual and consensual sadomasochism, and people tend to mix them up. >Pain is a >physical sensation; Suffering is an ego-reaction to pain. That's an interesting distinction, but I wonder if we always use the words that way. If you were in great pain for half an hour, I think most people would call it suffering and wouldn't make that distinction. > >Actually I was wrong in one area, nobody enjoys their "own" suffering, as >far as I can tell. There may be those who enjoy the sensation of pain, but >I can't see that anyone could really love to suffer. If pain is enjoyed, >it's not suffering, is it, it's enjoyment. I think there are people who prefer to suffer, although they may not be consciously aware of it. I'm thinking of the kind of person who really isn't comfortable if he's in a normally happy, fairly uneventful life... and needs to stir up some trouble... even though he may suffer a lot... then he feels like life is exciting again... things are really happening! )) In the last months of my marriage, we were having an argument one night, and I said, "I wish we could just have some peace." And my husband said, "Wouldn't that be boring?" I realized for the first time that he really meant it, and I knew there was no point in trying to hang onto the marriage. > >Also, I never made any reference to sexuality or "S&M" as commonly defined. Funny... this is just what many people say about SM: "Sexuality does not necessarily have to be involved." >.. have you noticed how >many people slow WAY down as they drive by the scene of an automobile >accident? You can guess what they're looking for... blood and guts, and >maybe somebody half sliced in two but still alive and fighting to get out >of the wreck. That is more what I was referring to. Someone who likes to >see such things regularly (and I'm not talking about movies - that provides >little satisfaction to such people, although movie violence probably plays >a part in creating such problems) has a sick and perverted ego. Yes, I see what you're talking about... thanks for your patience... Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 1999 Report Share Posted March 14, 1999 Hi Dharma, At 03:32 AM 3/14/99 -0600, you wrote: >>Pain is a >>physical sensation; Suffering is an ego-reaction to pain. > >That's an interesting distinction, but I wonder if we always use the words >that way. If you were in great pain for half an hour, I think most people >would call it suffering and wouldn't make that distinction. Most people couldn't handle the intensity of the sensation for a half hour, and would allow ego to become involved; to not remain unattached from the pain, but to attach personal meaning to it, to start to fight and to try to block it. Then suddenly it becomes not an intense sensation anymore, but extreme suffering. Other than that, pain is not essentially different than pleasure. I would think for most people that a two hour long orgasm would become suffering from the sheer intensity, just as pain would :-) Tim ----- The CORE of Reality awaits you at: http://www.eskimo.com/~fewtch/ND/index.html - Poetry, Writings, Live Chat on spiritual topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 1999 Report Share Posted March 14, 1999 Hi Tim, >>>Pain is a >>>physical sensation; Suffering is an ego-reaction to pain. >> >>That's an interesting distinction, but I wonder if we always use the words >>that way. If you were in great pain for half an hour, I think most people >>would call it suffering and wouldn't make that distinction. > >Most people couldn't handle the intensity of the sensation for a half hour, Actually, I was thinking of a specific example. When I had a hysterectomy, I wanted to watch, so I had only a spinal block... no general anesthesia. But it did go on longer than expected, and the block began to wear off... so the anesthesiologist slipped a needle in my shoulder from time to time. When I got to Intensive Care, I was a little goofy from the needles, but quite conscious... I'd been talking to the anesthesiologist... and talking and talking... )) The medication wore off quickly, and I asked for a shot. Apparently, the staff in Intensive Care had never known anyone to have a hysterectomy without general anesthesia, and they refused to believe I was conscious... they kept telling me I wouldn't remember a thing. And I couldn't get any medication. It went on much longer than half an hour... it wasn't until I was returned to my own room that I could get a shot for pain. The pain was absolutely incredible. The incision was across the lower belly in what they call "the bikini line." And all the muscles kept going into spasm and pulling at the incision. The most I could do was to lie still and try to relax. But every few minutes they would come and insist on turning me.. and that sent the muscles into spasm again. >and would allow ego to become involved; to not remain unattached from the >pain, but to attach personal meaning to it, to start to fight and to try to >block it. Then suddenly it becomes not an intense sensation anymore, but >extreme suffering. I don't know whether ego was involved, in the sense in which you use the word. I didn't have that sharp, clear consciousness... I was pretty out of it... but I was conscious and in terrible pain. (Even if I'd had sharp consciousness, I don't know if I could have been _thinking_, with that kind of pain going on.) "Attach personal meaning to it"? I don't know... I was just trying to tell the staff that I was really conscious and needed a shot. Or else just trying to be as still as I could be, so maybe the muscles would relax. So what do you think? That was pain. Was it suffering? >Other than that, pain is not essentially different than >pleasure. I would think for most people that a two hour long orgasm would >become suffering from the sheer intensity, just as pain would :-) Not after you get used to it. ) Love, Dharma Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 1999 Report Share Posted March 15, 1999 Message: 16 Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:02:21 -0600 Dharma <fisher1 Re: Judging, was Re: More Words of Vivekananda Hi Tim, >>>Pain is a >>>physical sensation; Suffering is an ego-reaction to pain. >> >>That's an interesting distinction, but I wonder if we always use the words >>that way. If you were in great pain for half an hour, I think most people >>would call it suffering and wouldn't make that distinction. > >Most people couldn't handle the intensity of the sensation for a half hour, Dharma: "Actually, I was thinking of a specific example. When I had a hysterectomy, I wanted to watch, so I had only a spinal block... no general anesthesia." Tim: >and would allow ego to become involved; to not remain unattached from the >pain, but to attach personal meaning to it, to start to fight and to try to >block it. Then suddenly it becomes not an intense sensation anymore, but >extreme suffering. Dharma: "I don't know whether ego was involved, in the sense in which you use the word. I didn't have that sharp, clear consciousness... I was pretty out of it... but I was conscious and in terrible pain. (Even if I'd had sharp consciousness, I don't know if I could have been _thinking_, with that kind of pain going on.) "Attach personal meaning to it"? I don't know... I was just trying to tell the staff that I was really conscious and needed a shot. Or else just trying to be as still as I could be, so maybe the muscles would relax. So what do you think? That was pain. Was it suffering?" *** Hello Dharma, It's a nice question you bring up Dharma, that i try to explore these days. Personally, to me, there is no real distinction between pain and suffering unless one of degree. Suffering could be said: when all we believe we are or are identified to is attached to a form of pain or another. Simple pain, like physical pain, being only when we come to see only one part of who we believe we are or identified to that is suffering. When i hit my finger with an hammer, it want's to become the center of my universe in it's cry of pain. It suffers, concentrating all it's energy to heal, calling for all my attention. For me pain only shows me my inability to open parts of me to the divine flow, their suffering sucks me for a while by a signal called pain. Pain shows me the limit of my being i identify myself with left to open to the Self. Of course orgasm those explore merging those limits, crystalised by pain, in a flowing way. Enjoy, Antoine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 1999 Report Share Posted March 15, 1999 At 10:08 15/03/99 -0500, you wrote: >Antoine <carrea > >Message: 16 > Sun, 14 Mar 1999 13:02:21 -0600 > Dharma <fisher1 >Re: Judging, was Re: More Words of Vivekananda > >Hi Tim, > >>>>Pain is a >>>>physical sensation; Suffering is an ego-reaction to pain. >>> >>>That's an interesting distinction, but I wonder if we always use the words >>>that way. If you were in great pain for half an hour, I think most people >>>would call it suffering and wouldn't make that distinction. >Tim: >>and would allow ego to become involved; to not remain unattached from the >>pain, but to attach personal meaning to it, to start to fight and to try to >>block it. Then suddenly it becomes not an intense sensation anymore, but >>extreme suffering. > >Dharma: >"I don't know whether ego was involved, in the sense in which you use >the word. I didn't have that sharp, clear consciousness... I was >pretty out of it... but I was conscious and in terrible pain. (Even if >I'd had sharp consciousness, I don't know if I could have been >_thinking_, with that kind of pain going on.) "Attach personal meaning >to it"? I don't know... I was just trying to tell the staff that I was >really conscious and needed a shot. Or else just trying to be as still >as I could be, so maybe the muscles would relax. > >So what do you think? That was pain. Was it suffering?" > >*** >Hello Dharma, > >It's a nice question you bring up Dharma, that i try to explore these >days. Personally, to me, there is no real distinction between pain and >suffering unless one of degree. Suffering could be said: when all we >believe we are or are identified to is attached to a form of pain or >another. Simple pain, like physical pain, being only when we come to see >only one part of who we believe we are or identified to that is >suffering. Hi y'all, May I share my experience of using hypnosis in pain control of clients? I was a hypnotherapist for some years. I had several chronic pain clients. Pain is what they came to me with, degenerative backs, mostly. Doctors had given up and usually pronounced that they should "just get used to it". (However they gave no indication as to how that might be achieved...). So they looked me up. They were worn down, desperate, determined, long-suffering, and sometimes they felt that they must have somehow deserved the pain. Their pain was a physical mechanism, a message through the nerves. Their suffering was their response to the message. After a while, the pain messages, instead of lessening, actually increased because the nerve pathways grew to accomodate the impulse traffic. Their suffering increased because they perceived the pain increase. Their self-awareness wrestled with the physical agony. It became a form of life-style. I was amazed myself to discover that using certain hypnotic techniques they could reduce their perception of pain by between 60-80%. Secondary benefits included gaining rest (perhaps for the first time in years), relaxation of muscles which would cramp otherwise, and a growing sense of power in their being-at-cause in their response to the pain. They were highly motovated, and good clients in their willingness to work on the suggestions given. They only returned to get a "boost" to their practice: they could do most of it themselves. The next thing was to get them to work on healing visualisations... So it seems to me that our bodies are a) yes, a limitation of our Being (but perhaps that's the point...) b) a means of learning that things matter *and* don't matter also, and c) defined by laws which we must understand as part of the creation we share. However, our suffering is based in self-awareness, the first cause of it. No big deal, and it can be modified to a great extent without having to leave the planet. This could also apply to our immune system, our response to our environment. Of course, orgasm as an endorphin releaser is a good way to lessen perceived pain... plus you get to experience bliss. (This was *not* a method I used in my therapy...!) ;-) Robert > >When i hit my finger with an hammer, it want's to become the center of >my universe in it's cry of pain. It suffers, concentrating all it's >energy to heal, calling for all my attention. For me pain only shows me >my inability to open parts of me to the divine flow, their suffering >sucks me for a while by a signal called pain. Pain shows me the limit of >my being i identify myself with left to open to the Self. > >Of course orgasm those explore merging those limits, crystalised by >pain, in a flowing way. > >Enjoy, >Antoine > >------ >Come check out our brand new web site! > >Onelist: Making the Internet intimate > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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